Oops...Hospital circumcises wrong baby

[cipher]

Hospital circumcises wrong baby
Last Updated Nov 18 2005 08:50 AM CST
CBC News

http://www.cbc.ca/manitoba/story/mb-boniface20051118.html

St. Boniface Hospital has suspended circumcisions of male newborns after a mix-up where the procedure was performed on the wrong baby.

Authorities say they're investigating the incident to determine how the mistake was made.

"We're concerned about any event of this nature because obviously a child was circumcised before his parents had a chance to make a decision and to give their consent and we will look into that," said Helene Vrignon, spokesperson for the hospital.

Vrignon said she was not able to disclose details other than the identities of two baby boys on the same ward were mixed-up. The family of the boy who was incorrectly circumcised had not yet made up their mind about whether to have the procedure done, she added.

Vrignon says the hospital is working with the family and no medical staff have been disciplined at this point.

Arthur Schafer, an ethics consultant for the department of pediatrics and child health at the Health Sciences Centre, says the mistake should never have happened. Still, he says the ultimate test is how the hospital deals with the situation.

"If the answer comes back that St. Boniface is a hotspot for serious medical errors, then we had better figure out quickly why this is happening and I'm sure the people at St. Boniface will be among the first to want to know why, so they can take corrective measures."

New legislation in Manitoba makes it mandatory for hospitals to report mistakes. However, results of any reviews conducted may not necessarily be made public, according to Paul Thomas, head of the Manitoba Institute for Patient Safety.

[rayesyn]

that can be a 'good' thing, its more hygenic i think {do mind the spelling}

[mingming]

that can be a 'good' thing, its more hygenic i think {do mind the spelling}
There are benefits to both... LOL

[Yaowsers]

Reminds me of Married With Children episode when they give Al a circumcision instead of a circular incision. :lol:

[najibs]

its not as if they amputated the leg of the wrong baby or anything. sure it was a mistake, but like someone here said before...its a hygenic thing

[Ziggy007]

It is better for hygene, but there will be a lawsuit over this I am sure...

[cipher]

I wonder if a bris was performed...

[ichpen]

Hygenic or not (pros and cons) this is gross mistake made by the hospital. Imagine if it was something more serious. I would certainly think a lawsuit would follow.

[to_munda]

its not as if they amputated the leg of the wrong baby or anything. sure it was a mistake, but like someone here said before...its a hygenic thing
I dont think it will be that simple.
In some religions, cicumcision is forbidden. So depending on what the beliefs of the parents of the wrong baby are, there could be HUGE implications.
My .02c worth.
Ciao

[Evil Techie]

ouch...
sew it back on lol

id be pretty bad if they circumcised my baby without my consent
there is always a risk in circumcision too

[bubble.tea]

Well according to health Canada. The medical benefits of a circumcision have expired.

Hence it is no longer covered by OHIP. I shelled out $80 on Wednesday for my boi.

p.s. This is not a simple screw up of a procedure. This is a MAJOR BRAIN-FART of HOSPITAL fail-safes, especially with newborns.

The nurses would triple-check the name tags each time they came and went, and when they took my boi to get his first check-up in their area. I can't believe how they phucked this up.

[biosh]

Circumcision is male genital mutilation.

Luckily, 85% of the world's men have been spared this savagery...

[divx]

Circumcision is male genital mutilation.

Luckily, 85% of the world's men have been spared this savagery...
yeah, most ******** procedure ever. if god didn't want us to have foreskin then we won't have it.

if they get the person's premission to cut off a part of his body then fine, but they didn't, this is abuse of human rights.

[bubble.tea]

All provincial health insurance plans (except Manitoba) have now removed nontherapeutic male neonatal circumcision from the schedule of covered procedures due to the lack of health benefit. These factors, and possibly a wider movement to holistic health, have led to a decline in the rate of neonatal circumcision in Canada.

Some unofficial statistics for 2003 for seven provinces and one territory, which had 75 percent of the total male births in Canada found that only 11.46 percent of Canadian infant boys in the reporting provinces and territories are being circumcised, which leaves 88.14 percent intact.

http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/Canada/

all this says, is that people are cheap, and won't shell out the money for their children. When you've witnessed a doctor do a circumcision, then come back to me...and tell me there's no reason to get it done. I was blown-away at how much foreskin there was.

[Kasakato]

Glue it back on. No biggie.

[bubble.tea]

just look at wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision).

If you still think your son should go through life with his glans meatus shrouded by that funky hood be my guest. I myself, would prefer to see that wicked warhead/mushroom head/dong/hammer head/insert self-glorifiying adjective here/ in all it's glory...anyway...that's what my wifey tells me :D -ultimately the only person who matters to me. I'm not Jewish, so this isn't a religious thing.

I can't believe I went through 29 years of my life...never once seeing how ugly an uncircumcised dong looks like until now /barf/ Thanks OP for spawning this need tonight.

oh another thing., I'm a parent of a newborn son. Until you all who've commented yay or nay, have a son to take care of...you have no right to speak. The risk of infections with IMPROPER care, which FREQUENTLY occurs nonetheless-because many parents are slack-a$$ punks, of the foreskin is very problematic.

Just think about it. Why do you always hear parents on tv say...did you clean...1) behind your ears 2) your belly button 3) between your toes, did you dry them....

It's the same thing...now you have to add yet ANOTHER thing to the list...for you to argue about for 15 years as you struggle to teach your son proper personal hygiene.

Johny, did you remember to clean your foreskin....chuckle...I can just see my boy getting frequent premature boners, cuz he excercises higher than normal hygiene standards lol.

no thanks., ...cised all the way ;)

g'night.

[gilboman]

just look at wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision).

If you still think your son should go through life with his glans meatus shrouded by that funky hood be my guest. I myself, would prefer to see that wicked warhead/mushroom head/dong/hammer head/insert self-glorifiying adjective here/ in all it's glory...anyway...that's what my wifey tells me :D -ultimately the only person who matters to me. I'm not Jewish, so this isn't a religious thing.

I can't believe I went through 29 years of my life...never once seeing how ugly an uncircumcised dong looks like until now /barf/ Thanks OP for spawning this need tonight.

oh another thing., I'm a parent of a newborn son. Until you all who've commented yay or nay, have a son to take care of...you have no right to speak. The risk of infections with IMPROPER care, which FREQUENTLY occurs nonetheless-because many parents are slack-a$$ punks, of the foreskin is very problematic.

Just think about it. Why do you always hear parents on tv say...did you clean...1) behind your ears 2) your belly button 3) between your toes, did you dry them....

It's the same thing...now you have to add yet ANOTHER thing to the list...for you to argue about for 15 years as you struggle to teach your son proper personal hygiene.

Johny, did you remember to clean your foreskin....chuckle...I can just see my boy getting frequent premature boners, cuz he excercises higher than normal hygiene standards lol.

no thanks., ...cised all the way ;)

g'night.

stop trying to shove your view down other's throats. i guess maybe you should take out all your newborn's teeth and replaced with dentures since then you never have to worry about dental problems or telling them to brush their teeth right? :|

[65505201]

stop trying to shove your view down other's throats. i guess maybe you should take out all your newborn's teeth and replaced with dentures since then you never have to worry about dental problems or telling them to brush their teeth right? :|

Erm. You still need to clean your dentures dude.

[65505201]

Circumcision is male genital mutilation.

Luckily, 85% of the world's men have been spared this savagery...

Hey. Piercing your ears is mutilation too.

[divx]

Hey. Piercing your ears is mutilation too.
It's not the mutilation we care about, it's about doing it without the person's consent. People get their ear pierced because they want it, that's perfectly fine.

[biosh]

just look at wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision).

If you still think your son should go through life with his glans meatus shrouded by that funky hood be my guest. I myself, would prefer to see that wicked warhead/mushroom head/dong/hammer head/insert self-glorifiying adjective here/ in all it's glory...anyway...that's what my wifey tells me :D -ultimately the only person who matters to me. I'm not Jewish, so this isn't a religious thing.

I can't believe I went through 29 years of my life...never once seeing how ugly an uncircumcised dong looks like until now /barf/ Thanks OP for spawning this need tonight.

oh another thing., I'm a parent of a newborn son. Until you all who've commented yay or nay, have a son to take care of...you have no right to speak. The risk of infections with IMPROPER care, which FREQUENTLY occurs nonetheless-because many parents are slack-a$$ punks, of the foreskin is very problematic.

Just think about it. Why do you always hear parents on tv say...did you clean...1) behind your ears 2) your belly button 3) between your toes, did you dry them....

It's the same thing...now you have to add yet ANOTHER thing to the list...for you to argue about for 15 years as you struggle to teach your son proper personal hygiene.

Johny, did you remember to clean your foreskin....chuckle...I can just see my boy getting frequent premature boners, cuz he excercises higher than normal hygiene standards lol.

no thanks., ...cised all the way ;)

g'night.
I had my daughter's hands surgically removed to save all that handwashing, not to mention all the germs that could have hidden under her fingernails and caused infections - better safe the sorry! Plus, now that she's grown up, she married a guy who has a stump fetish - they're glorious - "that's what her hubby tells her - ultimately the only person who matters to her."

[tlamm]

Sure, all those 1 and 2 year old girls said "please pierce my ears mommie".. I had my son circumcised before we left the hospital, cost 130 bucks.

I would have sued if they did it without consent though.


It's not the mutilation we care about, it's about doing it without the person's consent. People get their ear pierced because they want it, that's perfectly fine.

[x86asm]

I was circumsised. But the thing is that I am African, so it is tradition. It wasnt done out of any benefits (I thought there was no difference).

[divx]

I was circumsised. But the thing is that I am African, so it is tradition. It wasnt done out of any benefits (I thought there was no difference).
But Africa is different, they do it to both sex.

[x86asm]

But Africa is different, they do it to both sex.

Ya, but it is done out of custom not of choice.

[gh05t]

I was circumsised. But the thing is that I am African, so it is tradition. It wasnt done out of any benefits (I thought there was no difference).

You guys are so blessed that it would have grown out and left the foreskin behind anyways.(compliment) :D

This particular case has nothing to do with the pros and cons of the surgery but really the performance of it on the wrong subject.

circumcision arose mainly as a religious ritual as a sacrifice to show allegiance to our maker and it's practice has continued because of tradition.

Many of the cons of non circumcision arise because mothers are not taught how to properly care for the male child from the get go.

why is it in some cultures that mothers have used their common sense and used baby oil after each bath to keep the foreskin lubricated and pliable and at times have went the extra distance to blow a little air over it so as to ensure the oil pentrates deeper and the hole(meatus) stays clear and unobstructed which pretty much voids all or most of the complications uncircumcised males expereince when they are older.

[fakishan]

Ya, but it is done out of custom not of choice.

out of african custom dating back over +500 years or because of the catholic misionaries?

[rabbitman]

The circumsized ones don't know what they are missing when their gf/wifes go down on them, and learn to play with the foreskin properly. Leave the foreskin alone. God probably knew what he was doing, and all we can do is kill and mutilate.

[guest10586]

The circumsized ones don't know what they are missing when their gf/wifes go down on them, and learn to play with the foreskin properly. Leave the foreskin alone. God probably knew what he was doing, and all we can do is kill and mutilate.

ugh...dunno how you made playing with a piece of skin sound so sick but u did it...yuck...

[fakishan]

ugh...dunno how you made playing with a piece of skin sound so sick but u did it...yuck...

what do you mean? you never had a baloon blown? :lol:

[Txiasaeia]

But Africa is different, they do it to both sex.

Africa isn't a single homogeneous entity; there are hundreds of separate people groups living on the continent. Some practice female mutilation, others don't. Nevertheless, there's a *huge* difference between cutting the foreskin off of a penis and surgically removing a clitoris - male circumcision and female "circumcision" are two totally different things.

God probably knew what he was doing, and all we can do is kill and mutilate.

If you're using "God" in the Judeo-Christian sense, then He created the foreskin so that his chosen people could cut it off. I kid you not. There are several reasons for this, but for obvious reasons I won't get into it now. For the record, my only son is circumcised.

At any rate, I'm appalled that the hospital screwed up that badly. The issue is not that a circumcision was done to the wrong kid, but that a medical procedure was done to the wrong kid. Good grief. Nice timing for this story, seeing as how my wife's due date for our second child is tomorrow ;)

[corrupt123]

IMO, one should let the kids decide when they're old enough to understand. and if you dont have the balls to teach a kid how to properly clean himself, you arent fit to raise a kid.

[biosh]

Africa isn't a single homogeneous entity; there are hundreds of separate people groups living on the continent. Some practice female mutilation, others don't. Nevertheless, there's a *huge* difference between cutting the foreskin off of a penis and surgically removing a clitoris - male circumcision and female "circumcision" are two totally different things.
Different in degree, yes, but both remain forms of genital mutilation...

[cipher]

What's so hard about keeping it clean? It's easier to clean than flossing your teeth. Hacking it off because you're lazy is a pretty sad excuse. Perhaps everyone should shave their heads so that they don't have to wash their hair.

[PrimoTurbo]

Circumcision is honestly mutilation, watch Pen & Teller.

[belle]

that can be a 'good' thing, its more hygenic i think {do mind the spelling}

Here's a simple way to be hygenic...wash the damn thing. :lol:

[cheeseshredder]

What's so hard about keeping it clean? It's easier to clean than flossing your teeth. Hacking it off because you're lazy is a pretty sad excuse. Perhaps everyone should shave their heads so that they don't have to wash their hair.

Agreed O_o. Foreskin for the win! Funny how the people who are uncircumsized are not complaining about it. :cheesygri

[Txiasaeia]

Different in degree, yes, but both remain forms of genital mutilation...

If you want to call it that, fine. Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to undergo some hair mutilation in a few minutes.

[mart242]

circumcision because of hygiene... WTH? That might have been fine in the 1500 but these days, we have soap... it's not hard to wash.

In canada, circumcision is only popular in the english provinces. It's done less and less in Quebec. The main reason why people do it? "I want my son to be like me"... lame reason if you ask me.

[Txiasaeia]

In canada, circumcision is only popular in the english provinces. It's done less and less in Quebec. The main reason why people do it? "I want my son to be like me"... lame reason if you ask me.

It isn't popular these days, trust me. When our son was born, we wanted to have our son circumcised, and the nurses looked at us like we wanted to chop his head off. Brutal. It's not common at all... there are only two doctors in all of Regina who still perform them. Two for a population of over 100,000 people.

[PrimoTurbo]

Warning: Language may be offensive to some people.

There are currently no accepted medical reasons to have circumcision, it is clearly a cosmetic/religious thing. The fact that there is evidence that the baby can feel the pain and remember it, having repressed memories of this operation, some experts believe that there is evidence to suggest it can sometimes cause sociological effects in adult life. It’s rare but it’s a possibility.

Also don’t forget that there are chances of infection like with any surgery and there is also a small chance that it can be done improperly especially by someone who has little experience. It’s also rare but it does occur.

Furthermore you are cutting off a significant part of a sex organ and you have just successfully destroyed sensitivity and sexual pleasure.

Circumcision was originally supported by the church because it made sex less pleasurable, it also supposedly prevented masturbation. But there is a reason why you have the foreskin, it protects the glands on your penis and lubricates them during intercourse.

I think if parents knew some of this information then maybe they would give it a second thought instead of following this horrific act of mutilation just because of societies view or religious practices. Also any doctor that gives a reason for having circumcision for hygiene purposes is an ignorant bastard and should be fired on the spot.

There was a recent study that found that circumcision gave people a slightly lower chance in contracting HIV, I think it had to do with tearing which can happen in some cases. However the study wasn’t very big, and there other studies that had different conclusions about circumcision and sexually transmitted diseases. However anal sex by far was the most dangerous for HIV infections, circumcised or not.

[PrimoTurbo]

If you want to call it that, fine. Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to undergo some hair mutilation in a few minutes.

Cutting your hair is very different then cutting off a significant part of your genitals, the foreskin has millions of nerve endings and provides a number of functions. Hair is also dead and you don’t feel any pain if you cut it.

[Anessa]

Will they charge the parents for it? :cheesygri

[Txiasaeia]

Warning: Language may be offensive to some people.

There are currently no accepted medical reasons to have circumcision, it is clearly a cosmetic/religious thing. The fact that there is evidence that the baby can feel the pain and remember it, having repressed memories of this operation, some experts believe that there is evidence to suggest it can sometimes cause sociological effects in adult life. It's rare but it's a possibility.

All I've got is anecdocal evidence, but here goes: my son was circumcised when he was three days old. He went into the "operation" calm as a clear blue sky, and came out of it a few minutes later as if nothing had happened - not a tear on his face. I couldn't believe that he wasn't crying, so I gently pinched his arm. His reaction? He squirmed away from it and started to cry.

A friend of mine (Messianic Jew) was circumcised when he was thirteen. He said that it hurt, but he also said that he's had sports injuries that have hurt worse.

Also don't forget that there are chances of infection like with any surgery and there is also a small chance that it can be done improperly especially by someone who has little experience. It's also rare but it does occur.

There was a small chance of infection when I had my hair cut tonight, too.

Furthermore you are cutting off a significant part of a sex organ and you have just successfully destroyed sensitivity and sexual pleasure.

As a circumcised male who's also married, I can comfortably say that this is absolutely not true.

I think if parents knew some of this information then maybe they would give it a second thought instead of following this horrific act of mutilation just because of societies view or religious practices.

I went into it with eyes wide open and wouldn't change a thing if I had to do it over. My wife agonised over the choice for months before she concluded that circumcision has as many benefits and drawbacks as not being circumcised.

There was a recent study that found that circumcision gave people a slightly lower chance in contracting HIV, I think it had to do with tearing which can happen in some cases. However the study wasn't very big, and there other studies that had different conclusions about circumcision and sexually transmitted diseases.

It was actually a significant study, which found that circumcision dropped HIV infections by 50%: http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=healthNews&storyID=2005-10-26T190508Z_01_RID668464_RTRIDST_0_HEALTH-CIRCUMCISION-HIV-DC.XML&archived=False

Cutting your hair is very different then cutting off a significant part of your genitals, the foreskin has millions of nerve endings and provides a number of functions. Hair is also dead and you don't feel any pain if you cut it.

Whoosh! /hand over head

[biosh]

Furthermore you are cutting off a significant part of a sex organ and you have just successfully destroyed sensitivity and sexual pleasure.
As a circumcised male who's also married, I can comfortably say that this is absolutely not true.

...and how would you "absolutely" be able to know that?

I can think of only two ways your response could be true:

1. You were circumcised as an adult midway through your marriage, and therefore have personal experience with both natural and mutilated sex.

2. You are in a gay marriage and your partner is uncut and always reports enjoying sex less than you.

(Note: Since you believe in circumcision to the point that you had it done to your own child, I know that you will deny any negative facts regarding this surgical procedure until the cows come home, so don't feel the need to respond to this post...)

[milhaus]

The conclusions of the so called academic study cited above has been panned in medical/academic circles around the world, but hey, anything I wouldn't expect anything more rigorous than a Reuters news item from RFD dicussion forums. Look at the methodology closely - find the research paper - and you can draw your own conclusions.

[ainsane]

I can't believe they would make a mistake like this. Something is definately wrong there.


i guess maybe you should take out all your newborn's teeth and replaced with dentures since then you never have to worry about dental problems or telling them to brush their teeth right? :|

lmao, newborn with teeth... OUCH. breastfeeding is out of the question.

[cipher]

...and how would you "absolutely" be able to know that?

I can think of only two ways your response could be true:

1. You were circumcised as an adult midway through your marriage, and therefore have personal experience with both natural and mutilated sex.

2. You are in a gay marriage and your partner is uncut and always reports enjoying sex less than you.

(Note: Since you believe in circumcision to the point that you had it done to your own child, I know that you will deny any negative facts regarding this surgical procedure until the cows come home, so don't feel the need to respond to this post...)

I know because I can't walk around "rolled back"...the sensation from cotton rubbing against the exposed head is unbearable. I always wondered how cut people can walk around...the only explanation is that they are now a lot less sensitive.

[Txiasaeia]

...and how would you "absolutely" be able to know that?

I can think of only two ways your response could be true:

1. You were circumcised as an adult midway through your marriage, and therefore have personal experience with both natural and mutilated sex.

2. You are in a gay marriage and your partner is uncut and always reports enjoying sex less than you.

(Note: Since you believe in circumcision to the point that you had it done to your own child, I know that you will deny any negative facts regarding this surgical procedure until the cows come home, so don't feel the need to respond to this post...)

The guy said that "you have just successfully destroyed sensitivity and sexual pleasure." I have both sensitivity and sexual pleasure during sex, so the statement isn't true.

[Txiasaeia]

The conclusions of the so called academic study cited above has been panned in medical/academic circles around the world, but hey, anything I wouldn't expect anything more rigorous than a Reuters news item from RFD dicussion forums. Look at the methodology closely - find the research paper - and you can draw your own conclusions.

A 2004 Lancet article (2004 Mar 27;363(9414):1039-40) on the subject states that circumcision has a positive effect on reducing HIV-1 infections, but not simplex virus type 2, syphilis, or gonorrhoea. An article in AIDS (1997 Jan;11(1):73-9) draws the same conclusion from a group in Tanzania, but circumcision only has a "protective effect" rather than there being a direct causal link between circumcision and not getting HIV-1. Another article ( Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2003;(3):CD003362) says that there isn't likely a connexion between circumcision and HIV-1, but that more study is required. Finally, a 2005 article in AIDS (2005 Mar;15(3):130-1, 135, 138) casts some doubt on the original study to which I linked in this thread because there was a systematic lack of control in it, though the possibility that circumcision does prevent HIV-1 isn't completely discounted.

Then again, if only religious people get circumcised, then the reason that circumcised men aren't as likely to get HIV is because they come from a religious family - behavioural, in other words. One study I found seems to support this, but a couple others discount it.

Funny how there's a bit of confusion as to whether circumcision is effective in stopping HIV, but I can't find a single article that says that circumcision causes a greater risk of HIV.

(You happy?)

[Freak]

The guy said that "you have just successfully destroyed sensitivity and sexual pleasure." I have both sensitivity and sexual pleasure during sex, so the statement isn't true.
I completely agree. I'm snipped and sex is very enjoyable for me!

Freak

[Freak]

Then again, if only religious people get circumcised, then the reason that circumcised men aren't as likely to get HIV is because they come from a religious family - behavioural, in other words. One study I found seems to support this, but a couple others discount it.

You can't seriously believe that? I think nowadays people circumcise their boys because they are circumcised themselves. I imagibe you would find the same scenario with no circumcised people.

I also happen to be an atheist. I am circumcised and I planned on circumcising my boy...but we ended up having a girl. The practise of circumcisions obviously is religious based, but I think that religion no longer plays a primary role in deciding whether or not to circumcise your children. IMO.

Freak

[Txiasaeia]

You can't seriously believe that? I think nowadays people circumcise their boys because they are circumcised themselves. I imagibe you would find the same scenario with no circumcised people.

I meant in Africa, where most of the studies about circumcision and HIV are done. Yes, religion plays a significant role in circumcision in the developing world.

[cipher]

I completely agree. I'm snipped and sex is very enjoyable for me!

Freak

You might enjoy it, but how can you tell that it's more enjoyable than what an unsnipped person experiences? You have no idea what you're missing out on. You snipped guys can walk around with the fabric of your underwear rubbing against it with no problems. I find it very uncomfortable to do that...almost to the point of being unbearable. That tells me right away that you guys have a lot less sensitivity than us uncut guys.

Read this article from...http://www.circumcision.org/adults.htm


Men Circumcised as Adults

Only men circumcised as adults can experience the difference a foreskin makes. In the Journal of Sex Research, Money and Davison from the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine reported on five such men. Changes included diminished penile sensitivity and less penile gratification. The investigators concluded,

Erotosexually and cosmetically, the operation is, for the most part, contraindicated, and it should be evaluated in terms of possible pathological sequelae.( 1)
Other men circumcised as adults regret the change.

I play guitar and my fingers get callused from playing. That’s similar to what happened to my penis after circumcision.( 2)
After the circumcision there was a major change. It was like night and day. I lost most sensation. I would give anything to get the feeling back. I would give my house. [This man’s physician persuaded him to be circumcised by warning he could otherwise get penile cancer. When the man complained of the result, the physician replied, “That’s normal” and would not help him.]( 3)

Slowly the area lost its sensitivity, and as it did, I realized I had lost something rather vital. Stimuli that had previously aroused ecstasy had relatively little effect. . . . Circumcision destroys a very joyful aspect of the human experience for males and females.( 4)

The greatest disadvantage of circumcision is the awful loss of sensitivity when the foreskin is removed. . . . On a scale of 10, the intact penis experiences pleasure that is at least 11 or 12; the circumcised penis is lucky to get to 3.( 5)

The sexual differences between a circumcised and uncircumcised penis is . . . like wearing a condom or wearing a glove. . . . Sight without color would be a good analogy. . . . Only being able to see in black and white, for example, rather than seeing in full color would be like experiencing an orgasm with a foreskin and without. There are feelings you’ll just never have without a foreskin.( 6)

After thirty years in the natural state I allowed myself to be persuaded by a physician to have the foreskin removed—not because of any problems at the time, but because, in the physician’s view, there might be problems in the future. That was five years ago and I am sorry I had it done. . . . The sensitivity in the glans has been reduced by at least 50 percent. There it is, unprotected, constantly rubbing against the fabric of whatever I am wearing. In a sense, it has become callused. . . . I seem to have a relatively unresponsive stick where I once had a sexual organ.( 7)




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


NOTES




1) Money, J. & Davison, J., “Adult Penile Circumcision: Erotosexual and Cosmetic Sequelae,” Journal of Sex Research 19 (1983): 291.
2) Letter to CRC office, 1993.
3) Telephone conversation with CRC office, 1993.
4) Milos, M. & Macris, D., “Circumcision: A Medical or a Human Rights Issue?” Journal of Nurse-Midwifery 37 (Supplement 1992): 93S.
5) NOCIRC Newsletter, Fall 1990, 3.
6) Edell, D., Circumcision report for television news, KGO, San Francisco, 1984.
7) “The Unkindest Cut of All,” letter to the editor, Playgirl, July 1979, 108.

[biosh]

You might enjoy it, but how can you tell that it's more enjoyable than what an unsnipped person experiences? You have no idea what you're missing out on. You snipped guys can walk around with the fabric of your underwear rubbing against it with no problems. I find it very uncomfortable to do that...almost to the point of being unbearable. That tells me right away that you guys have a lot less sensitivity than us uncut guys.

Read this article from...http://www.circumcision.org/adults.htm
It's simple psychology - no amount of evidence will counterbalance the intense denial that accompanies the experience of being mutilated by your parents when you were a helpless baby in their care - the denial is in fact so strong, that they carry the ritual forward to their own children to "justify" their parent's decision and allow their denial to remain unchallenged...

Personally, I find it very sad when I hear of people trapped in this cycle of violence and ignorance.

:cry:

[Freak]

I meant in Africa, where most of the studies about circumcision and HIV are done. Yes, religion plays a significant role in circumcision in the developing world.
Agreed. Sorry I didn't read the article you posted...I was strickly referring to North America.

Freak

[Freak]

It's simple psychology - no amount of evidence will counterbalance the intense denial that accompanies the experience of being mutilated by your parents when you were a helpless baby in their care - the denial is in fact so strong, that they carry the ritual forward to their own children to "justify" their parent's decision and allow their denial to remain unchallenged...

Personally, I find it very sad when I hear of people trapped in this cycle of violence and ignorance.

:cry:
LOL. Seriously man...I am not "suffering" after being "mutilated" by my parents. If you want to stop it from happening...don't circumcise your children...and fight the religious organizations that promote it!

Also, your comments about underwear rubbing are hilarious...sure it is uncomfortable at times...but I live with the "pain". LOL

Freak

[biosh]

LOL. Seriously man...I am not "suffering" after being "mutilated" by my parents. If you want to stop it from happening...don't circumcise your children...and fight the religious organizations that promote it!
I hardly view mutilation as a laughing matter, but I do agree with you that it is up to parents to take action. I am also not suggesting that religious circumcision needs to be "fought" - though the issue certainly becomes cloudier with female circumcision for religious or cultural reasons. The primary concern I have is when parents have this procedure done for what essentially amounts to fashion - if a man truly wants to have this done, he can wait till the legal age of consent and sign off on it himself as a consenting adult...

Also, your comments about underwear rubbing are hilarious...sure it is uncomfortable at times...but I live with the "pain". LOL

Freak
It was cipher who was writing about the experience of sensitivity with an uncircumcised penis - the point was that if you are circumcised, your penis is desensitized, so it's no wonder you laugh at the idea of "living with the pain"...

[Freak]

[QUOTE=biosh]I hardly view mutilation as a laughing matter, but I do agree with you that it is up to parents to take action. I am also not suggesting that religious circumcision needs to be "fought" - though the issue certainly becomes cloudier with female circumcision for religious or cultural reasons. The primary concern I have is when parents have this procedure done for what essentially amounts to fashion - if a man truly wants to have this done, he can wait till the legal age of consent and sign off on it himself as a consenting adult...
QUOTE]
I hear what your saying...I just laugh because of the things choose to complain about. I seriously have a problem with the fact that people choose to have their children "baptised" when they are only 6 months old or whatever? Where is the choice? Why not let them wait until they are 18 and allow them to choose it on their own? Because many of them would then not be baptised!! Religion is used to scare people into following rules. It's the same thing for circumcision...religious rituals that are totally unwarranted and for total disregard for the eventual wishes of the person that they are performing the ritual on...

I'm not sure at this point...but I think if my next child is a boy I will not be having him circumcised.

Freak

[Freak]

I hardly view mutilation as a laughing matter, but I do agree with you that it is up to parents to take action. I am also not suggesting that religious circumcision needs to be "fought" - though the issue certainly becomes cloudier with female circumcision for religious or cultural reasons. The primary concern I have is when parents have this procedure done for what essentially amounts to fashion - if a man truly wants to have this done, he can wait till the legal age of consent and sign off on it himself as a consenting adult...

I hear what your saying...I just laugh because of the things choose to complain about. I seriously have a problem with the fact that people choose to have their children "baptised" when they are only 6 months old or whatever? Where is the choice? Why not let them wait until they are 18 and allow them to choose it on their own? Because many of them would then not be baptised!! Religion is used to scare people into following rules. It's the same thing for circumcision...religious rituals that are totally unwarranted and for total disregard for the eventual wishes of the person that they are performing the ritual on...

I'm not sure at this point...but I think if my next child is a boy I will not be having him circumcised.

Freak

[Txiasaeia]

I hear what your saying...I just laugh because of the things choose to complain about. I seriously have a problem with the fact that people choose to have their children "baptised" when they are only 6 months old or whatever? Where is the choice? Why not let them wait until they are 18 and allow them to choose it on their own? Because many of them would then not be baptised!! Religion is used to scare people into following rules.

On the other hand, a kid getting his head wet with a bit of water when he's a couple months old isn't going to do him irreparable harm as an adult. I don't know anybody who was baptised as an infant who was "scared into following the rules" simply because of that baptism. I'll bet there are more than a few people here on RFD who were baptised as an infant and who no longer practice the faith.

[Freak]

On the other hand, a kid getting his head wet with a bit of water when he's a couple months old isn't going to do him irreparable harm as an adult. I don't know anybody who was baptised as an infant who was "scared into following the rules" simply because of that baptism. I'll bet there are more than a few people here on RFD who were baptised as an infant and who no longer practice the faith.
I was just making a point that there are other ridiculous forms of religious ritual...that are only occuring because they are based in religious ritual. As for the "kid getting it's head wet" doesn't cause any irreparable damage. How many kids that were baptised do you think still follow their faith...simply because it was a "harmlessly" engrained in them as an infant? Gee, how many wars have been started over religious beliefs? Somehow I think that circumcision pales in comparison. ;)

Freak

[Txiasaeia]

I was just making a point that there are other ridiculous forms of religious ritual...that are only occuring because they are based in religious ritual. As for the "kid getting it's head wet" doesn't cause any irreparable damage. How many kids that were baptised do you think still follow their faith...simply because it was a "harmlessly" engrained in them as an infant? Gee, how many wars have been started over religious beliefs? Somehow I think that circumcision pales in comparison. ;)

Freak

Well, I mean in terms of actual physical damage to one's body, baptism does nothing, whereas circumcision... well, it has a permanent effect, all right. But no, I don't think that infant baptism has a lot to do with whether a child will grow up to be religious; the religion of the parents will do that quite nicely regardless of whether a child is baptised or not.

[mart242]

I know because I can't walk around "rolled back"...the sensation from cotton rubbing against the exposed head is unbearable. I always wondered how cut people can walk around...the only explanation is that they are now a lot less sensitive.

I agree 100% with this. Plus, depending on what you're doing, if the head is exposed, it's almost too sensitive...

[biosh]

There's hope for survivors of male genital mutilation now with the development of the world's first artificial retractable foreskin for circumcised men (http://www.viafin-atlas.com/more_information.asp)...

SenSlip

Being circumcised affects the natural operation, appearance and sensitivity of the penis. During recent years much medical research has been carried out in several countries into the function and purpose of the foreskin. There is now conclusive medical evidence that a circumcised penis with the glans exposed has less nerve receptors and is less effective than a naturally covered penis.

Over the years the exposed glans becomes less sensitive. There is well-documented evidence which shows that this can, and often does, have a disastrous effect on sexual performance, its consequences, and ultimately, on self esteem.

The SenSlip range of artificial retractable foreskins is available in different sizes, to allow for variation between individuals. With ten sizes we want you to be fitted correctly right from the start. (See fitting chart)

The SenSlip can provide for you:

• A flexible, protective and comfortable retractable cover for the glans
• An affordable artificial foreskin which is washable and semi-disposable
• Immediate and instant protection of the glans from underwear and the elements
• A program for reversing lack of sensitivity in the glans
• A deeper and more enjoyable orgasm
• Natural dekeratinization of the glans (thinning of the existing calloused skin)
• A softer and smoother glans which is more sensitive to touch and feel
• An artificial foreskin which gives the appearance of an uncircumcised penis
• A feeling of warmth, security and self-esteem.

The SenSlip is a very flexible garment for the penis. It is available in Caucasian Pink (mid-brown and dark brown colours will be available soon) The SenSlip is individually packaged in a re-sealable medical packet, and is supplied in packs of five in any one size. Each SenSlip is designed to keep its shape, consistency and appearance for up to ten days, and is hand washable.

[CSR]

WAY to dig up an old thread...

[HughG]

WAY to dig up an old thread...

literally dig up.

[MrDisco]

I had my daughter's hands surgically removed to save all that handwashing, not to mention all the germs that could have hidden under her fingernails and caused infections - better safe the sorry! Plus, now that she's grown up, she married a guy who has a stump fetish - they're glorious - "that's what her hubby tells her - ultimately the only person who matters to her."

hahah..great answer! :)

[biosh]

WAY to dig up an old thread...
There's been enough redundant and/or useless threads in Off Topic of late, I didn't feel this product announcement deserved it's own thread, and that it may be of most interest to participants in this recent thread. Besides, I didn't want to reopen old wounds by kick starting the whole circumcision debate again...

:)

[nano]

You guys are so blessed that it would have grown out and left the foreskin behind anyways.(compliment) :D

This particular case has nothing to do with the pros and cons of the surgery but really the performance of it on the wrong subject.

circumcision arose mainly as a religious ritual as a sacrifice to show allegiance to our maker and it's practice has continued because of tradition.

Many of the cons of non circumcision arise because mothers are not taught how to properly care for the male child from the get go.

why is it in some cultures that mothers have used their common sense and used baby oil after each bath to keep the foreskin lubricated and pliable and at times have went the extra distance to blow a little air over it so as to ensure the oil pentrates deeper and the hole(meatus) stays clear and unobstructed which pretty much voids all or most of the complications uncircumcised males expereince when they are older.
u cant grow out of forskin

[akito925]

just get it done and over with.. it would be better later on..

another worry would be he could get it stuck on his zipper if hes not careful, get it stuck doing the deed, the parenet has metal pericings could get caught in pericings, could get caught on his rings when he releiving his stress.

but either way it all depends on the person.

[yjxiao]

AMEN


Circumcision is male genital mutilation.

Luckily, 85% of the world's men have been spared this savagery...

[deactivated1245]

Circumcision is male genital mutilation.

Luckily, 85% of the world's men have been spared this savagery...


Hear hear!

I can't believe this practice is still going on. Hygenic reasons my ***, the only reason it's still being done is aesthetic reasons. "I'm circumcised so my kid should be too, and my wife thinks it's more attractive."

[eelfliw]

Putting religion aside, I wonder how many guys here saying being circumcised is better had it done to them while they had no choice (ie. as a baby or parents forced them to)???

How many, after the age of maturity, voluntarily chose to be circumsized after reading medical reports or saw pictures of uncircumsized penis and found it unberable?

Please leave religion out of this. Many religions around the world tells its worshippers to alter their body (or not) to demonstrate faith.

[nolookingca]

Just make sure the mother isn't clueless. My mom never knew to clean it. A painful day unable to urinate and some time sticking one of those things you use to pick out bread at the bakery into it, and a few weeks rubbing Vaseline later, I'm fine. Again about a year later. Two year passed, repeat, except the doc suddenly tugged on the skin, avoiding that particular "operation". Back in Asia, living conditions weren't that gewat. Hard water and weekly showers DOES NOT permit good hygiene. And those folks down there have no sense of privacy for kids. All three times in a room with the door open and a few dozen folks literally staring.

[JAC]

Circumcision is male genital mutilation.
Luckily, 85% of the world's men have been spared this savagery...
Yawn. Enjoy your cheese-filled turtleneck.

[dgmorr]

There are benefits to both... LOL

What are the benefits of not being circumcised?

[kingsley]

I had my daughter's hands surgically removed to save all that handwashing, not to mention all the germs that could have hidden under her fingernails and caused infections - better safe the sorry! Plus, now that she's grown up, she married a guy who has a stump fetish - they're glorious - "that's what her hubby tells her - ultimately the only person who matters to her."

lol, good one

[Jacka]

Putting religion aside, I wonder how many guys here saying being circumcised is better had it done to them while they had no choice (ie. as a baby or parents forced them to)???

How many, after the age of maturity, voluntarily chose to be circumsized after reading medical reports or saw pictures of uncircumsized penis and found it unberable?

Please leave religion out of this. Many religions around the world tells its worshippers to alter their body (or not) to demonstrate faith.


indeed, what are the difference?? being circumcised or not?? anyone ~ ?

[Txiasaeia]

What are the benefits of not being circumcised?

There are sites out there that give the pros and the cons. My wife and I extensively researched this before our son was born, and discovered that the pros and the cons (both short- and long-term) are almost exactly comparable.

[biosh]

Here is a well written article entitled The Case Against Circumcision (http://www.nocirc.org/articles/fleiss1.php) by pediatrician Dr. Paul M. Fleiss from the articles page of the site nocirc.org (http://www.nocirc.org/articles/)...

[gei]

It is better for hygene, but there will be a lawsuit over this I am sure...

Maybe in medieval times. But in this day and age there is no good reason for a circumcision. You are better off without one.

[biosh]

Maybe in medieval times. But in this day and age there is no good reason for a circumcision. You are better off without one.
I wonder how our species ever survived the million years before circumcision and modern hygiene were invented?

[fireguy9]

much better to get it done young then when older,,, buddy had it done at 25 due to chronic tearing during sex amongst few other issues,,,,,,, but he swears by it now,,,,

had it done for my son, no questions asked, and wife had no real say,,, since Im done,,, my son gets done and wouldnt want him to deal with it at a older age

[najibs]

Yawn. Enjoy your cheese-filled turtleneck.

ROFL. HAHAHAHAHA. You made me spit out my water man...that was hilarious! I vote in favour of the circumcision. The day I have my kid, he's gettin snipped...and beleive me, I'm doing him a favour.

[x86asm]

ROFL. HAHAHAHAHA. You made me spit out my water man...that was hilarious! I vote in favour of the circumcision. The day I have my kid, he's gettin snipped...and beleive me, I'm doing him a favour.

I didnt get that joke, please PM me what it means (and excuse my ignorance) :confused:

[najibs]

I didnt get that joke, please PM me what it means (and excuse my ignorance) :confused:

I wont get into details, but it's gross. Regarding hygene and uncircumsized men, again when the part under the foreskin gets infected...I'll spare ya the details...

[x86asm]

I wont get into details, but it's gross. Regarding hygene and uncircumsized men, again when the part under the foreskin gets infected...I'll spare ya the details...
WOW, thanks for *NOT* sharing :)

[dgmorr]

Yawn. Enjoy your cheese-filled turtleneck.

*puke* lol, that is dirty. Sure glad I'm snipped.

[The_Madz]

*puke* lol, that is dirty. Sure glad I'm snipped.


I hate when people generalize that people who are not circumzised dont' clean themsevles. I was not circumzised, i clean myself throughly when i take a shower and i dont have anything nasty "head cheese".

if you dont' know what you are talking about, stay out of the conversation. Genital mutilation, which this is, is not useful in a civilized society.
simply put, the only reason why people support it is because they either have it themselves, or they watch too many porns whereupon they believe that's how their penis is supposed to look. of course it dosn't help much when girls get this block as well and think the same.

But luckily the trend is going away, less people are being circumsized, atleast i know very few non-religious people who are.

oh and btw, i can feel the foreskin it has many nerve endings and it does have plenty of useful features which you will never experience if you cut it off. leave it on, let the kid decide if he wants it chopped later in life. most likly he wont. IF you can't teach your kid to clean themselves, you have major issues anyway.

[surfingfordeals]

I think the whole point of this article is not whether circumcision is right or wrong...but rather that our hospital system in Canada makes stupid mistakes like this ALL the time... and something needs to be done about it.

The only reason why it's become so public is that the error that they made was visible and physical... with clear irrevocable evidence left behind. However, when errors are made that are medically signficant, but easily nondistinguishable in the layman's eyes, it often gets hidden or covered up quickly.

I think we shouldn't be arguging over the benefits or disadvantages of circumcision... but should really think HOW THE HELL did this happen??

In the US, medical mistakes are often publicized, and there is a greater threat of court lawsuits.. but in Canada, I believe the incidence of law suits are lower.

Plus, when there is a law suit, often, it is very much a 'hush' 'hush' type of deal. I bet if you did your homework, pretty much every hospital in the GTA has been sued over a medical mistake made. We simply are not made aware of it as the public.

Just disillusioned by the health care system.

[JAC]

I hate when people generalize that people who are not circumzised dont' clean themsevles. I was not circumzised, i clean myself throughly when i take a shower and i dont have anything nasty "head cheese".
Every uncircumcized male has smegma. Do you think that a) helps, or b) hurts your chances of getting a hummer?

Tell you what - make yourself a hotdog with cottage cheese some time. Mmm, sounds apetizing, doesn't it?

if you dont' know what you are talking about, stay out of the conversation. Genital mutilation, which this is, is not useful in a civilized society.
simply put, the only reason why people support it is because they either have it themselves, or they watch too many porns whereupon they believe that's how their penis is supposed to look. of course it dosn't help much when girls get this block as well and think the same.
Sure, but when a girls laughs at your johnson you'll never know if it's because of your silly-looking raincoat, or because she thinks it's small.

[MrDisco]

Every uncircumcized male has smegma. Do you think that a) helps, or b) hurts your chances of getting a hummer?

Tell you what - make yourself a hotdog with cottage cheese some time. Mmm, sounds apetizing, doesn't it?

Sure, but when a girls laughs at your johnson you'll never know if it's because of your silly-looking raincoat, or because she thinks it's small.

jac i find your comments completely offensive. you make it sound as though anyone who isn't circumcized is walking around with an infected penis who will be ostracized by the female community. this is simply not true. either grow up or quit making these gross inaccurate statements. :mad:

[JAC]

jac i find your comments completely offensive. you make it sound as though anyone who isn't circumcized is walking around with an infected penis who will be ostracized by the female community. this is simply not true. either grow up or quit making these gross inaccurate statements. :mad:
How you interpret my comments is no concern of mine.

I find the notion that circumcision is genital mutilation to be ludicrous and offensive, and will respond as I see fit.

Don't like it? Use the ignore feature.

[biosh]

jac i find your comments completely offensive. you make it sound as though anyone who isn't circumcized is walking around with an infected penis who will be ostracized by the female community. this is simply not true. either grow up or quit making these gross inaccurate statements. :mad:
Instead of getting mad at jac, I might suggest empathy, MrDisco - it's surely not surprising that anyone who was sexually mutilated as an innocent child might wanna make up for their losses at the hands of their most trusted, by lashing out with false rationalizations towards the uncut - it's just human nature...

:|

[JAC]

Instead of getting mad at jac, I might suggest empathy, MrDisco - it's surely not surprising that anyone who was sexually mutilated as an innocent child might wanna make up for their losses at the hands of their most trusted, by lashing out with false rationalizations towards the uncut - it's just human nature...

:|
Spare me. It's you zealots getting worked up about a simple cosmetic procedure, not I. I'm perfectly content with my johnson, and I have no regrets about the decision my parents made for me. Had I boys, I would have made the same decision for them. If you choose to interpret my mocking as self-pity, that's your perogative.

It sounds to me like the turtleneck crew is just jealous that the circumcized look is more aesthetic. So let's hear from the ladies.

Ladies, which do you prefer?

1. The look of a circumcized or uncirumcized penis?
2. The feel of a circumcized or uncirumcized penis?
3. The taste of a circumcized or uncirumcized penis?
4. The performance of a circumcized or uncirumcized penis?

[luthair]

The Hospital needs to learn to measure twice and cut once.

[skuntbehavior]

Spare me. It's you zealots getting worked up about a simple cosmetic procedure, not I. I'm perfectly content with my johnson, and I have no regrets about the decision my parents made for me. Had I boys, I would have made the same decision for them. If you choose to interpret my mocking as self-pity, that's your perogative.

It sounds to me like the turtleneck crew is just jealous that the circumcized look is more aesthetic. So let's hear from the ladies.

Ladies, which do you prefer?

1. The look of a circumcized or uncirumcized penis?
2. The feel of a circumcized or uncirumcized penis?
3. The taste of a circumcized or uncirumcized penis?
4. The performance of a circumcized or uncirumcized penis?


this i need to hear about! lol.

mutilation?
please.
in my opinion whether you are circumcized or not, just make sure you teach the young ones from an early age, that they keep their s--t clean. i know men that aren't circumcized (men in their 20-40s) that have at least 1 infection a year. on the other hand i know people that have had infections with their circumcized johnsons.
wife and her family didn't think we should do it to our son. i told my wife to tell her family to f--k off and mind their own business. interesting cause her father got circumcized at 40, her nephew at 12. her father wished it was done a lot sooner and her nephew was glad after the fact.
i refuse to put my son through the trauma of having to deal with infections at that age. pre-teen? they have enough to deal with at that age.
my son is 4 and he knows he has to keep it clean, i have even taught him how to pull back on the skin and clean around it. he knows not to use soap right on the penis due to stinging effect.

not trying to veer from topic, a gross error was made here and should be dealt with accordingly.

[The_Madz]

Every uncircumcized male has smegma. Do you think that a) helps, or b) hurts your chances of getting a hummer?

Tell you what - make yourself a hotdog with cottage cheese some time. Mmm, sounds apetizing, doesn't it?


Sure, but when a girls laughs at your johnson you'll never know if it's because of your silly-looking raincoat, or because she thinks it's small.


first of all i have never had an infection. smegma is not somethign all males get, it is a built up that can happen if you do not wash yourself. i have never had a urinary tract infection either which can also happen if you neglect to clean yourself.

secondly of all.. of the many girls i have slept with, not one has found it unappealing simply because of the fact that you can pull the skin back. in fact they have been more intriqued by it and have had fun to playing with it.

now i'm sure there are going to be some backward rednecks like you who do not understand this concept of cleanlines.. just as much as there are going to be some girls out there who have either a)never seen or had sex with someone who was uncircumsized b) had a bad exeperience with someone who may not have been smart enough to know how to clean themselves and therefore agree with you.

this does not mean that all guys get smegma, smell, or are otherwise nasty just because their sadistic parents didn't chop off part of their weiner. it is the same as saying that all girls genital regions tastes nasty.. some may.. most do not.


the purpose of circumsission as pointed out earlier was for religious purposes. there is no medical reason to do it today especially if you know how to clean yoruself (which i really really hope you do)

get your facts straight, and grow up. do not stereotype people, espcially when you so obviously know nothing about it.

[mart242]

i know men that aren't circumcized (men in their 20-40s) that have at least 1 infection a year.

Never had any. As others have mentionned, it's not hard to keep it clean. DOes it mean that the circumcised guys don't know how to wash their's?

[biosh]

...the circumcized look is more aesthetic. So let's hear from the ladies.

Ladies, which do you prefer?

Hey, your penis isn't a leash, ya know - I wouldn't let the ladies lead you around by it...

;)

[JAC]

first of all i have never had an infection. smegma is not somethign all males get, it is a built up that can happen if you do not wash yourself.
get your facts straight, and grow up. do not stereotype people, espcially when you so obviously know nothing about it.
Well, kid, you had best get your facts straight before you attempt to lecture me. All uncircumcized males produce smegma; the level it builds up to is wholely dependant on your level of cleanliness.

NSFW
http://www.foreskin.org/smegma.htm
NSFW

Keep on fighting, lads. It's going to take several generations before the uncircumcized look becomes the aesthetic norm; by that time, you'll all be too old to make use of it anyway.

[Sharp]

Well, kid, you had best get your facts straight before you attempt to lecture me. All uncircumcized males produce smegma; the level it builds up to is wholely dependant on your level of cleanliness.

NSFW
http://www.foreskin.org/smegma.htm
NSFW

Keep on fighting, lads. It's going to take several generations before the uncircumcized look becomes the aesthetic norm; by that time, you'll all be too old to make use of it anyway.
"If allowed to accumulate for several years, smegma might possibly cause some irritation. But, even this is doubtful."

:lol: :lol:
I don't know I just found that funny.

[The_Madz]

"If allowed to accumulate for several years, smegma might possibly cause some irritation. But, even this is doubtful."

:lol: :lol:
I don't know I just found that funny.


ok, maybe so.. i guess i just clean my dick so that i never see it, or smell it.. in fact it is quite possible that because of me being uncircumsized i may actually have a cleaner dick than most people who are cicumized since they may not bother cleaning themselves since they are under the dilusion that their dick will never smell or get dirty.

but however very useful article. Perhaps people should read up on the whole topic before they propose to chop their boys weiner in order to give in to their paranoia that no girl will give him a blowjob if he keeps his skin.

[Tjalfe]

Really, if it was so advantageous, why would natural selection not have gotten rid of foreskin in the many years of human evolution?

[JAC]

Really, if it was so advantageous, why would natural selection not have gotten rid of foreskin in the many years of human evolution?
Appendix. Tonsils. Wisdom teeth. Fingernails. Body hair. Goose bumps. All useless remnants that evolution has not bothered to discard.

Any other questions?

[MrDisco]

Perhaps people should read up on the whole topic before they propose to chop their boys weiner in order to give in to their paranoia that no girl will give him a blowjob if he keeps his skin.

or the ludicrous assertion that an uncircumcised male will be 'less' attractive to females (or other males for that matter). toss that one right in there with penis length and width as yet another thing to get young males all paranoid about.

you clean it properly you're good to go.

[dariusr]

21 years old, uncircumsized, and wouldnt have it any other way.
Of the partners Ive had, all made points of mentioning that I had either no taste/smell or one that was definitely not unpleasent. This I believe primarily has to do with diet. What goes in, must come out. In the same way that you excreate toxins through your pores, it comes out in semen as well.

JAC What youve been arguing your point with sounds ALOT more like a Yeast Infection(Yes men get them, and yes they are common) ie: White, cottage cheese consistancy, or someone with **** hygiene.
A yeast infection will make you look, taste, and smell pretty foul.

My partner, and all past partners have been intrigued by my foreskin. It generally becomes an excuse to spend more time down there. You speak of your 'big knob' because your circumsized. My 'knob', gets quite big and hard if I pull my foreskin back over my head. The difference is, I make the choice to do this.
It was challenging as an adolescent having my mom/dad have to explain/show me why it was important to 'stretch' the foreskin back, for hygiene reason, and Ive since found out for 'comfort' reasons aswell. Im very thankful that they took the time to teach me the importance of all of it, instead of just lopping it off so it would be easier. Im certain theres a good portion of uncurcumsized men that dont have very well stretched foreskin based on the tearing I keep hearing about.

JAC, Last point(young man ;) ) Didnt you ever learn its not the size of it(your dick or head), its all about what you can do with it? Try reading some books on trantric practices, talk to some lesbians, find out where to look for all those hiding spots that can induce varying types and intensity of pleasure, based on force, friction, gentleness, speed....

...lol.. sort of feel like Im talking about physics now

thats it. for now

ok, maybe so.. i guess i just clean my dick so that i never see it, or smell it.. in fact it is quite possible that because of me being uncircumsized i may actually have a cleaner dick than most people who are cicumized since they may not bother cleaning themselves since they are under the dilusion that their dick will never smell or get dirty.

but however very useful article. Perhaps people should read up on the whole topic before they propose to chop their boys weiner in order to give in to their paranoia that no girl will give him a blowjob if he keeps his skin.

[dariusr]

Appendix. Tonsils. Wisdom teeth. Fingernails. Body hair. Goose bumps. All useless remnants that evolution has not bothered to discard.

Any other questions?

LOL! :lol:

Now your just trying to stir sh*t up. If you are serious, well.. I would love for you to remove all your fingernails and get back to us in a few months to tell us how youve made out just fine without them :cheesygri

[Tjalfe]

Appendix. Tonsils. Wisdom teeth. Fingernails. Body hair. Goose bumps. All useless remnants that evolution has not bothered to discard.

Any other questions?
Appendix:
the appendixhas no known physiological function but probably represents a degenerated portion of the cecum that, in ancestral forms, aided in cellulose
digestion. It is believed that the appendix will gradually disappear in human beings as our diet do not includes cellulose no more.
as in evolution is taking care of this already.

Tonsils:
Tonsils are really lymph nodes. Yes, they sort of filter the blood of
bacteria etc. All of your blood supply passes through one lymph node or
another. Unfortunately some of them get chronically infected. Yes, they are
there for a reason and they play a necessary role. But when all else fails,
they can be removed and you should be OK.

Wisdom teeth: Seems natural selection is taking care of that already, as not everyone has them.

Fingernails: protect the end of your finger. Do you relally think they serve no purpose?

Body hair: keep us warm, we already have evolved to have alot less than we would have had in the monkey days, so again that is taken care off by evolution

Goose bumps: raise the hairs so they trap more air, hence insulate better, keeping us warm.

If you do this for religious reasons, is this not a way to say that the creater made a flawed product?

If for estetics, an erect penis with the skin pulled back looks virtually the same as a circumsied one, except you have the added sensitivity of the one which is normally protected.

if for hygenic, clenliness reasons, yes, there is a chance for infection if left dirty, but kids also get ear infections, runny noses, and eye infections. Should we, following this logic, not cut off ears, noses and eyelids?

Really, try as you will, there are no good arguments for cutting off a usefull body part.

[kingsley]

Appendix. Tonsils. Wisdom teeth. Fingernails. Body hair. Goose bumps. All useless remnants that evolution has not bothered to discard.

Any other questions?

Now here is something I've been thinking about for a while. How evolution is suppose to work is that the traits arn't useful shouldn't be passed on to the next generation because the people with those traits die before reproduction. Now for wisdom teeth, we are slowly getting rid of them because our jaws are getting smaller and we don't have the space to accomodate those extra teeth.

But who is dying from still having wisdom teeth? Rather, who is dying before they reproduce that still have their wisdom teeth? Are people without wisdom teeth from birth more attractive? lol, I mean how is our species "naturally selecting" wisdom teeth out of our gene pool? Doesn't anybody else find this weird or is it just me?

Yet wisdom teeth is dissapearing from our species. Somehow evolution is working without the natural selection process. Maybe it is not just natural selection. Maybe some of the theorys where "species evovle based on the environment and somehow it is passed on to their children" is at work here.

[kingsley]

If you do this for religious reasons, is this not a way to say that the creater made a flawed product?



hahahahahahahahaa nice one! I really like that.

Religion is wrong in so many ways. So many holes for you to poke through it's so ridiculous. Why people don't see it as a bunch of horse sh*t that was made up thousands of years ago really amazes me.

And I want to say something a bit more profound but I lost my train of thought...

[mart242]

hahahahahahahahaa nice one! I really like that.

Religion is wrong in so many ways. So many holes for you to poke through it's so ridiculous. Why people don't see it as a bunch of horse sh*t that was made up thousands of years ago really amazes me.

And I want to say something a bit more profound but I lost my train of thought...

Yeah, why is it that they do that (snip) for "religious" reason? I mean, did god tell the jews to snip it thousands of year ago or what?

(I've got the same point of view as you re religion)

[JAC]

21 years old, uncircumsized, and wouldnt have it any other way.
Of the partners Ive had, all made points of mentioning that I had either no taste/smell or one that was definitely not unpleasent. This I believe primarily has to do with diet. What goes in, must come out. In the same way that you excreate toxins through your pores, it comes out in semen as well.

JAC What youve been arguing your point with sounds ALOT more like a Yeast Infection(Yes men get them, and yes they are common) ie: White, cottage cheese consistancy, or someone with **** hygiene.
A yeast infection will make you look, taste, and smell pretty foul.

My partner, and all past partners have been intrigued by my foreskin. It generally becomes an excuse to spend more time down there. You speak of your 'big knob' because your circumsized. My 'knob', gets quite big and hard if I pull my foreskin back over my head. The difference is, I make the choice to do this.
It was challenging as an adolescent having my mom/dad have to explain/show me why it was important to 'stretch' the foreskin back, for hygiene reason, and Ive since found out for 'comfort' reasons aswell. Im very thankful that they took the time to teach me the importance of all of it, instead of just lopping it off so it would be easier. Im certain theres a good portion of uncurcumsized men that dont have very well stretched foreskin based on the tearing I keep hearing about.

JAC, Last point(young man ;) ) Didnt you ever learn its not the size of it(your dick or head), its all about what you can do with it? Try reading some books on trantric practices, talk to some lesbians, find out where to look for all those hiding spots that can induce varying types and intensity of pleasure, based on force, friction, gentleness, speed....

...lol.. sort of feel like Im talking about physics now

thats it. for now

Son, the last thing I need is sexual pointers from you. And if you'd actually bothered to read my posts, you'd have seen that nowhere do I make mention of penis size except in one tongue-in-cheek remark.

I'm not here to debate the merits of circumcision; I'm merely deflating the overzealous windbags who think that a simple cosmetic surgey is mutilation.

[JAC]

Appendix:
the appendixhas no known physiological function but probably represents a degenerated portion of the cecum that, in ancestral forms, aided in cellulose
digestion. It is believed that the appendix will gradually disappear in human beings as our diet do not includes cellulose no more.
as in evolution is taking care of this already.
And how many eons ago were we herbivorous? Hint: think monkeys in a tree.

Tonsils:
Tonsils are really lymph nodes. Yes, they sort of filter the blood of
bacteria etc. All of your blood supply passes through one lymph node or
another. Unfortunately some of them get chronically infected. Yes, they are
there for a reason and they play a necessary role. But when all else fails,
they can be removed and you should be OK.
Beneficial, yes. Necessary? No. Children who must have their tonsils and adenoids removed suffer no loss in their resistance.

Wisdom teeth: Seems natural selection is taking care of that already, as not everyone has them.
Link, please. The absence in a few does not indicate a trend.

Fingernails: protect the end of your finger. Do you relally think they serve no purpose?
Evolutionary leftover from our ancestors with claws. Unnecessary. The skin underneah is only delicate because there's a nail over it.

Body hair: keep us warm, we already have evolved to have alot less than we would have had in the monkey days, so again that is taken care off by evolution
But it's not gone, is it? Thanks for making my point.

Goose bumps: raise the hairs so they trap more air, hence insulate better, keeping us warm.
Again, thanks for pointing out what I already knew. Since we no longer have enough body hair to keep us warm, it's a rather pointless reflex.

If you do this for religious reasons, is this not a way to say that the creater made a flawed product?
I don't think you'd find any religious person who would claim man is not flawed. But go ask one.

If for estetics, an erect penis with the skin pulled back looks virtually the same as a circumsied one, except you have the added sensitivity of the one which is normally protected.
Sure, a regular penis with a cute little pink legwarmer. :lol:

if for hygenic, clenliness reasons, yes, there is a chance for infection if left dirty, but kids also get ear infections, runny noses, and eye infections. Should we, following this logic, not cut off ears, noses and eyelids?
Specious, but not unexpected.

Really, try as you will, there are no good arguments for cutting off a usefull body part.
Nor is there any justification for saying that circumcision is mutilation.

[JAC]

LOL! :lol:

Now your just trying to stir sh*t up. If you are serious, well.. I would love for you to remove all your fingernails and get back to us in a few months to tell us how youve made out just fine without them :cheesygri

Guilty.

Like I said, I'm just having fun teasing the zealots. :)

[Tjalfe]

I see.. so your point is, if it serves no function ( that you can see) then sure, chop it off.. well since we now have wheelchairs, how about we chop off everyones legs...



And how many eons ago were we herbivorous? Hint: think monkeys in a tree.

evolution takes time, Anyways, Can you show any evidence that the foreskin is dissapearing in humans due to evolution?


Beneficial, yes. Necessary? No. Children who must have their tonsils and adenoids removed suffer no loss in their resistance.

But my argument was that it should be done as a precaution, if that is the argument for circomcision, chop off the foreskin and at the same time take out the tonsils, just in case. Your argument that they don't suffer ill effects does not justify unnecessary surgery.

Link, please. The absence in a few does not indicate a trend.

www.google.com


Evolutionary leftover from our ancestors with claws. Unnecessary. The skin underneah is only delicate because there's a nail over it.

So they are slowly evolving from thick claws to thin nails, and slowly dissapearing. in the mean time, they do come in handy quite often. Ever try operating a swizz army knife without nails?


But it's not gone, is it? Thanks for making my point.

Humans are also not dressed always


Again, thanks for pointing out what I already knew. Since we no longer have enough body hair to keep us warm, it's a rather pointless reflex.

you still have body hair, they still rise when cold, how is this making your point?


I don't think you'd find any religious person who would claim man is not flawed. But go ask one.

To keep from getting further off track, I will keep the religioun out for now


Sure, a regular penis with a cute little pink legwarmer. :lol:

The way nature intended, I can presume your wife/girlfriend has her clit hood removed too, just for estecics.. right?


Specious, but not unexpected.

please follow up on my logic


Nor is there any justification for saying that circumcision is mutilation.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=mutilation

mu·ti·late Audio pronunciation of "mutilation" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mytl-t)
tr.v. mu·ti·lat·ed, mu·ti·lat·ing, mu·ti·lates

1. To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple.
2. To disfigure by damaging irreparably: mutilate a statue. See Synonyms at batter1.
3. To make imperfect by excising or altering parts.

[JAC]

I see.. so your point is, if it serves no function ( that you can see) then sure, chop it off.. well since we now have wheelchairs, how about we chop off everyones legs...
Yawn.

evolution takes time, Anyways, Can you show any evidence that the foreskin is dissapearing in humans due to evolution?
I'm still waiting for evidence that any of the other evolutionary holdovers are disappearing.

But my argument was that it should be done as a precaution, if that is the argument for circomcision, chop off the foreskin and at the same time take out the tonsils, just in case. Your argument that they don't suffer ill effects does not justify unnecessary surgery.
Pay attention. I never said circumcision was a necessary procedure. Nor can you equate circumcision, which is a simple cosmetic procedure done under local or topical anesthetic, to a tonsilectomy, which is a genuine surgery, done under general anesthetic.

So they are slowly evolving from thick claws to thin nails, and slowly dissapearing. in the mean time, they do come in handy quite often. Ever try operating a swizz army knife without nails?
Great for picking your nose, too. Doesn't mean they're necessary, unless you're still picking lice out of your mate's coat.

you still have body hair, they still rise when cold, how is this making your point?
The point is that we no longer have enough body hair to keep us warm, so it is therefore useless, not to mention unesthetic.

The way nature intended, I can presume your wife/girlfriend has her clit hood removed too, just for estecics.. right?
Female circumcision is a backward social custom, and beyond the scope of this thread. But if that's your idea of esthetics, well, you're beyond the scope of this thread, too.

please follow up on my logic
Will do, as soon as I find some.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cosmetic

[biosh]

JAC doesn't know jack!

:cheesygri

[Tjalfe]

JAC doesn't know jack!

:cheesygri

Agreed.. seems like arguing with a 15 year old highschool student, bound to justify his own circumcision, which he, like any other baby, did not have a say in :rolleyes:

[The_Madz]

WEll it sounds like circumscision can be narrowed down to simply being cosmetic mutilation. serving no point but to make certain individuals feel better about their private part as they think it's supposed to look like that (afterall most porn movies show it that way)


it's pretty clear that people who are circumzised can't bear the fact that if it is indeed cosmetic reasoning behind it they are nothing but shallow people who see no problem in mutilating (cosmetically or not) their own flesh and blood. you think your doing kids a favour? how can you know? by the time the kid is goinng to have to really worry about it he can make up his own mind. Maybe your just afraid to teach your kid how to clean himself? i

Jag... your replies are silly and pointless and you dont answer the questions posted to you. it's pretty obvious you are trying to convince yourself that it is ok to chop it off cause it looks prettier.. that may be so.. and your opinion. That does not mean that it is better.. healthier, more pleasurable, nicer for the woman, or any other reasoning you may come up with to make yourself feel better about having lost something you can never experience.

[biosh]

Just to review, the foreskin serves more than a cosmetic function:

What Are the Foreskin's Functions?

The foreskin has numerous protective, sensory, and sexual functions:

- Protection: Just as the eyelids protect the eyes, the foreskin protects the glans and keeps its surface soft, moist, and sensitive. It also maintains optimal warmth, pH balance, and cleanliness. The glans itself contains no sebaceous glands-glands that produce the sebum, or oil, that moisturizes our skin.11 The foreskin produces the sebum that maintains proper health of the surface of the glans.

- Immunological Defense: The mucous membranes that line all body orifices are the body's first line of immunological defense. Glands in the foreskin produce antibacterial and antiviral proteins such as lysozyme.12 Lysozyme is also found in tears and mother's milk. Specialized epithelial Langerhans cells, an immune system component, abound in the foreskin's outer surface.13 Plasma cells in the foreskin's mucosal lining secrete immunoglobulins, antibodies that defend against infection.

- Erogenous Sensitivity: The foreskin is as sensitive as the fingertips or the lips of the mouth. It contains a richer variety and greater concentration of specialized nerve receptors than any other part of the penis.15 These specialized nerve endings can discern motion, subtle changes in temperature, and fine gradations of texture.

- Coverage During Erection: As it becomes erect, the penile shaft becomes thicker and longer. The double-layered foreskin provides the skin necessary to accommodate the expanded organ and to allow the penile skin to glide freely, smoothly, and pleasurably over the shaft and glans.

- Self-Stimulating Sexual Functions: The foreskin's double-layered sheath enables the penile shaft skin to glide back and forth over the penile shaft. The foreskin can normally be slipped all the way, or almost all the way, back to the base of the penis, and also slipped forward beyond the glans. This wide range of motion is the mechanism by which the penis and the orgasmic triggers in the foreskin, frenulum, and glans are stimulated.

- Sexual Functions in Intercourse: One of the foreskin's functions is to facilitate smooth, gentle movement between the mucosal surfaces of the two partners during intercourse. The foreskin enables the penis to slip in and out of the vagina nonabrasively inside its own slick sheath of self-lubricating, movable skin. The female is thus stimulated by moving pressure rather than by friction only, as when the male's foreskin is missing.


{From The Case Against Circumcision (http://www.nocirc.org/articles/fleiss1.php) by Dr. Paul M. Fleiss - BTW, the whole article well worth reading...}