London mayor: Israel caused bloodshed

[Marc7]

after so many complaints of picking news from an arab source, which must be biased I guess :D . I am back to reading the other side, found an interesting article. For those who get so bothered by those articles, I welcome dialog and reason ;)

In interview with British Jewish website, Ken Livingstone answers critics on range of issues, from his clashes with Board of Deputies of British Jews to his views on Israel; says, ‘I think Zionism is like every other form of nationalism. It can be inspiring or it can have a dark side; it’s perfectly valid to question creation of Israel
Leslie Bunder


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/1,7340,L-3170452,00.html

a snippet..


How do you view Israel? Are you actually anti-Israel, anti-Zionist, or what?



I think Zionism is like every other form of nationalism. It can be inspiring or it can have a dark side. If you actually look at the debate at the time when the concept of a Zionist state was being kicked around at the end of the 19th Century, there were several Jews who said if you go down this road and Judaism becomes a state it will do all the terrible things that states do, you will lose what has made us what we are, and I think that is a large part of the problem.



I remember when the former Chief Rabbi, Jakobovits, retired, he was interviewed in the Standard and he said, “When I look at what’s happening I’m not sure it was right to create the state of Israel.” It’s a perfectly valid thing to say after so many wars, so much bloodshed – did it work? It’s academic because it’s there and we need to find a way forward for the future, but the other thing is that I’m in favor of church and state being totally separate.



We’ve only got remnants of that here – Catholics can’t marry the heir to the throne, for example – lucky old Catholics, some people would say. But I was amazed to discover for example only a couple of months ago that in Israel a Jew can’t marry an Arab.



What a load of crap! And what I tend to find usually here, whenever Sheikh Qaradawi says anything religiously conservative, which he often does – all you have to do is go to the website and find out what the Chief Rabbi in Israel has said and it’s often exactly the same.



So when there was the tsunami and Qaradawi said “this may be the judgment of God for all the sex at these holiday resorts” – that’s not my opinion but you only have to log on and that’s what the Chief Rabbi said, and certainly what Ian Paisley says. Religious leaders do this; they have to refer everything back to God.



So I’m lucky I grew up without religion – I can marry who I want. And I do think there needs to be that separation. I have this ideal and given the cosmopolitan and humanist traditions of Judaism, of all the Arab nations the Palestinians are most close to having a natural grasp for democracy and liking, the most open, perhaps because they’ve been spread around the world.



If there’s one Arab nation Israel should be able to get a deal with, share some common values with, do an awful lot of trade with, it’s the Palestinians. And I think it’s a tragic loss of opportunity. It’s got so bad and there’s so much bloodshed on all sides, seeing how you can put this back together…if Rabin had pushed all this through in the first three months and just said ‘we’re not taking this by stages….’ If you take it by stages it allows Hamas and Netanyahu to wreck the whole process from their different perspectives.



If he’d just driven it through there would have been some bombings, there would have been some killings, but you would have gradually marginalized and isolated them and you’d have given the Arab population a real stake in it succeeding. And I have a horrible feeling the chance of getting that now after the bitterness and the bloodshed, I’m very very pessimistic about the future.

[poedua]

after so many complaints of picking news from an arab source, which must be biased I guess :D . I am back to reading the other side, found an interesting article. For those who get so bothered by those articles, I welcome dialog and reason ;)

In interview with British Jewish website, Ken Livingstone answers critics on range of issues, from his clashes with Board of Deputies of British Jews to his views on Israel; says, ‘I think Zionism is like every other form of nationalism. It can be inspiring or it can have a dark side; it’s perfectly valid to question creation of Israel
Leslie Bunder


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/1,7340,L-3170452,00.html

a snippet..


.

The complaints are about the recurring ' themes ' of your threads...not the sources. But, your last source on terrorism was from a US business professor who has co-authored books with another author ( Chomsky ) alleged to be ' anit- American' and an ' anti-semite ' by some - both of whom have established records of attacking the US war effort and US foreign policy - they are anything but ' objective' historians, journalists or scholars.

It's one thing to post ' both sides ' of this Middle East debate in these threads , but you consistently provide threads that are ' anti- israel ' or ' pro - palestine ' IMO. I can easily review you threads of the past 3/4 months and pick those out that mention terrorism, Palestine , Jew / Jewish. Gaze , West bank or terror and terrorism - the theme would become readily self - evident. For example, the title you chose for this thread...


" London mayor: Israel caused bloodshed "


Why do you only provide Middle East threads, of which the majority are ' anti- israel ' or ' pro - palestine ' ? Why do you do that ? Why not present both sides ?

If you were to balance the themes of your threads with some that occationally condemn and highlight the generic revulsion of terrorism around the world ( or the unaccceptable terrorism of both sides ) or condem the terrorisnm of Hamas AND Israel ( along with well well earned critcism of Israel ) it would would earn you the respect frorn objectviely minded RFDers that is so woefully lacking now.

When you continually post only one pespective of this Middle East conflict it forces other RFDers like myself ...much as we hate to perpetuate this....to respond with the opposing view simply in order to provide other lurkers a balanced perspective to both sides of this debate.

This Middle East conflct is crazy...the killing is crazy...the politics is crazy......we need to find solutions rather than stoking the fires with a relentess stream of threads that promote one side as demons or ' the evil doers " and the other as victims. Otherwise it gets us nowhere.

[danfromwaterloo]

Troll.

[Happy13178]

The complaints are about the recurring ' themes ' of your threads...not the sources. But, your last source on terrorism was from a US business professor who has co-authored books with another author ( Chomsky ) alleged to be ' anit- American' and an ' anti-semite ' by some - both of whom have established records of attacking the US war effort and US foreign policy - they are anything but ' objective' historians, journalists or scholars.

It's one thing to post ' both sides ' of this Middle East debate in these threads , but you consistently provide threads that are ' anti- israel ' or ' pro - palestine ' IMO. I can easily review you threads of the past 3/4 months and pick those out that mention terrorism, Palestine , Jew / Jewish. Gaze , West bank or terror and terrorism - the theme would become readily self - evident. For example, the title you chose for this thread...


" London mayor: Israel caused bloodshed "


Why do you only provide Middle East threads, of which the majority are ' anti- israel ' or ' pro - palestine ' ? Why do you do that ? Why not present both sides ?

If you were to balance the themes of your threads with some that occationally condemn and highlight the generic revulsion of terrorism around the world ( or the unaccceptable terrorism of both sides ) or condem the terrorisnm of Hamas AND Israel ( along with well well earned critcism of Israel ) it would would earn you the respect frorn objectviely minded RFDers that is so woefully lacking now.

When you continually post only one pespective of this Middle East conflict it forces other RFDers like myself ...much as we hate to perpetuate this....to respond with the opposing view simply in order to provide other lurkers a balanced perspective to both sides of this debate.

This Middle East conflct is crazy...the killing is crazy...the politics is crazy......we need to find solutions rather than stoking the fires with a relentess stream of threads that promote one side as demons or ' the evil doers " and the other as victims. Otherwise it gets us nowhere.

Q.F.T.

[rayesyn]

hey, i'm new to the off-topic forum, what does TROLL mean?

Troll.

[lip1978]

You do realize that Ken Livingstone has a long history of run-ins with the Jewish community of London. It isn't the source of the info, it's the bias of the interviewee. On that account, you followed your same pattern, which isn't surprising.

An excellent op-ed piece from the same website originally posted about Mr. Livingstone:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3054506,00.html

[poedua]

You do realize that Ken Livingstone has a long history of run-ins with the Jewish community of London. It isn't the source of the info, it's the bias of the interviewee. On that account, you followed your same pattern, which isn't surprising.

An excellent op-ed piece from the same website originally posted about Mr. Livingstone:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3054506,00.html


Good point....when British Prime Minister Tony balir has to call on Livingstone to aplogise for making racist remarks he made to the British Jewish comminity...you get some idea of what kind of ' objective politician '( ? ) this Livingstone guys is.....likening a Jewish person to a Nazi concentration camp guard ?

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/02/20/britain.livingstone/

' British Prime Minister Tony Blair has publicly called on the mayor to apologize......for comparing a Jewish newspaper reporter to a Nazi concentration camp guard ".

Six Labour MPs have also signed a Commons motion calling for Ken Livingstone to apologise.

[danfromwaterloo]

hey, i'm new to the off-topic forum, what does TROLL mean?

Someone who posts inflammatory threads simply to piss other people off.

I'm all for debating the Middle East sitution, but the OP only ever makes anti-Israeli sentiments, quoting biased sources, and generally, just being an ass.

Find a new hobby, troll.

[Marc7]

The complaints are about the recurring ' themes ' of your threads...not the sources. But, your last source on terrorism was from a US business professor who has co-authored books with another author ( Chomsky ) alleged to be ' anit- American' and an ' anti-semite ' by some - both of whom have established records of attacking the US war effort and US foreign policy - they are anything but ' objective' historians, journalists or scholars.

It's one thing to post ' both sides ' of this Middle East debate in these threads , but you consistently provide threads that are ' anti- israel ' or ' pro - palestine ' IMO. I can easily review you threads of the past 3/4 months and pick those out that mention terrorism, Palestine , Jew / Jewish. Gaze , West bank or terror and terrorism - the theme would become readily self - evident. For example, the title you chose for this thread...


" London mayor: Israel caused bloodshed "


Why do you only provide Middle East threads, of which the majority are ' anti- israel ' or ' pro - palestine ' ? Why do you do that ? Why not present both sides ?
.


poedua, if you read the link, you'd know that in all my threads (almost), I never manipulate the title, I merely copy the title from the article, and this is the case here.

as to why i don't bother to present both sides, I think I do condemn both sides equally. You will see in my posts condemnation of both sides but when israel kills four times the civilians that palestine does, then criticism has to be proportional. Furthermore, asper controlled media skews the coverage so much that someone needs to provide the alternative view, do you have respect for all his newspapers and media channels?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izzy_Asper

Asper was accused by a number of media observers of censoring opinions critical of Zionism or which he deemed sympathetic to the Palestinians,

exapmles:

Doug Cuthand, a First Nations columnist for the Regina Leader Post, wrote an essay in early January that was sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians in the West Bank, comparing them to Canada’s indigenous peoples. The Aspers, who are "well known for their unstinting support of Israel," according to the Toronto Star (1/12/02), had the column killed.


CanWest’s owners, Winnipeg’s Asper family, which made its fortune in the television business, appear to consider their newspapers not only as profit centers and promotional vehicles for their television network but also as private, personal pulpits from which to express their views.

The Aspers support the federal Liberal Party. They're pro-Israel. They think rich people like themselves deserve tax breaks. They support privatizing health care delivery. And they believe their newspapers...should agree with them.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1106


as for snackerpack, if you look at defintion of troll, it would fit nicely with you posts, either you are 12 years old or have the brains of one! :D

[poedua]

poedua, if you read the link, you'd know that in all my threads (almost), I never manipulate the title, I merely copy the title from the article, and this is the case here.

Smarten up Marc7...I never suggested you 'manipulate' titles to mislead or otherwise ...it's the type of articles you selectively choose and the text of the titles that speak for themselves and reflect your obvious bias. Get real

as to why i don't bother to present both sides, I think I do condemn both sides equally. .

You've GOT to be kidding !!! Really ???? Let's say I list all the titles from your threads on the middle east from these past few months - and as i said before, I pick those out your threads in which you mention the words / phrases terrorism, Palestine , Jew / Jewish. Gaza , Hamas, kiling, attack, West bank, Middle East, or terror and terrorism etc. etc.

Are you telling me that 50% would be ' pro - israel ' AND 50 % would be " pro - Palestinian ' ?

Are you saying, without a doubt ,your threads would present both sides ' equally ' as you claim - 50 % ? Would you agree it's 50 % - Yes or No ?


You will see in my posts condemnation of both sides but when israel kills four times the civilians that palestine does, then criticism has to be proportional. .

So criticsm is based on who's more ' efficient ' at killing - or killing civlilans ????? This conflict isn't some video game where you keep score - that's sick.

Have you lost your mind ? Hamas TARGETS civilians as part of their goal to wipe off israel off the face of the earth. Mass murder of civiilans is their actual policy - i can cite their Charter if you'd like. Israel kills civilians too - and they should be held equally condemed and held accountable. You don't keep score by the number of dead...so if one side launched 500 attcks and killed 1000 people and one side lauched 250 attacks and killed 1200 people - the killers of 1,200 people are the worse of the 2 ?

That's ridiculous, both sides should be condemed equally- regardless of how many or how they go about killing - one death is too many no matter who does it - don't you get it ? Both side are equally to blame here...you just don't get it do you !

Furthermore, asper controlled media skews the coverage so much that someone needs to provide the alternative view, do you have respect for all his newspapers and media channels?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izzy_Asper.

First question....since when did Asper have control of ' ynet news' or ' Arab Studies Quarterly ' , sources you've cited...are you saying the majority of your threads been sourced form Canwest sources??? ..I don't recall any.

Asper runs Global Televsion and the National Post and other papers.He's only one media outlet only - you think the whole country only believes THAT media source alone . ??? That's externely naive. Who here in RFD is posting pro Asper / Middle East threads ( that source from CanWest )that you feel so compelled to post yout threads in rebuttal ...so you're battle is with CanWest ????What about the Globe & Mail, the CBC, the Toronto Star, the BBC, ..not to mention all the internet news sources ?????And, if dislike Canwest so much...and think they're biased...why do you read the Post or listen to the Global so much??? ...read sources you know not to be biased !

And while you're at it ...could you please tell me which papers / media outlets are biased to the Palestinian side and which of your threads reflect your attempts to provide the alterntive view ...you yourself said..." media skews the coverage so much that someone needs to provide the alternative view " ????Could you list the ' pro- palestinian ' media sources you think are biases and cite any of your threads that attempt to provvide the alternative view and expose this bias ????

Asper was accused by a number of media observers of censoring opinions critical of Zionism or which he deemed sympathetic to the Palestinians,].

Doug Cuthand, - that's one - provide the other ' observers' you mentioned.

as for snackerpack, if you look at defintion of troll, it would fit nicely with you posts, either you are 12 years old or have the brains of one! :D

Tell me Marc7- why do you feel it necessary to attack another poster with comments like ......." either you are 12 years old or have the brains of one! "

[poedua]

Someone who posts inflammatory threads simply to piss other people off.

I'm all for debating the Middle East sitution, but the OP only ever makes anti-Israeli sentiments, quoting biased sources, and generally, just being an ass.

Find a new hobby, troll.

I agree.

[Marc7]

keep trying to divert from the thread original post like you usuallydo, not sure who's the troll here ;)

Tell us peodua, what life/hobbies do you have other than RFD?

[poedua]

keep trying to divert from the thread original post like you usuallydo, not sure who's the troll here ;)

Tell us peodua, what life/hobbies do you have other than RFD?

Focusing questions on the 'personal aspects' of the poster rather than the argument ....again .....are we Marc7 ? My my, you'll never learn... will you .


Smarten up and grow up Marc7.


Stick to the debate that YOU initiated...and muster up a shred of integrity and courage and answer the questions I put to you in Post # 10.


I've challenged a number of your points in post # 10 by way of rebuttal and returned questions to you...show some guts and defend your arguments like a mature adult rather than focusing on the personal life of the poster ( who disagrees with you ) as a child would - just because you unable or unwilling to defend yourself by way of a reasoned & well thought-out rebuttal

[Beradon]

Marky, please swallow this article (from an Arab based website):



By an Arab Egyptian, with a Muslim background and an ex-member of one of the most fanatical Islamic groups in the history of Islam (JI).
T. Abdelhamid

I am a typical Arab- Egyptian- with a Muslim background.
As any Arab, I was brought up on hating Israel and the Jews. When I was four years old, the dehumanisation of the Jews everywhere around me led me to imagine them as green ugly people full of evil.

In the age of six or seven my father who was secular and open minded was reading in a history book and he showed me a photo.
This photo will never be erased from my memory as it was for a whole family without clothes and the father was opening of his eyes in a combination of fear, shock and inability to believe what is happening to him and his family.
My dad said to me in this moment “ these people are called Jews and some one is called Hitler put them in ovens to burn them alive”. My dad was telling this from pure historical point of view. I went to my room and wept over this man and these people.
Since then, every thing changed in my mind regarding the Jews and despite the extreme hatred toward them in the media, in the schools, and everywhere around me, I could not hate them and, in fact I sympathised with them.
This creates a feeling in me that I should meet these people, talk to them, and try to understand them.
As I grew up the hatred in my community was increasing but my feelings did not change.
One day, in my school in Egypt, the teacher asked us to draw something called Bahr Albaquar. They told all the students that Israel attacked a kindergarten and killed the Egyptian kids intentionally. They portrayed Israel and the Jews as bloodsuckers who enjoy killing young Arab kids.
I used to draw this on sheet of paper as I was a young student and I had to obey the teacher, but my feelings toward the Jews remained the same and my desire to see them and talk to them had not changed.

Later in my life, and when I was 15 years old, I met in a family occasion with some doctor who used to work in the area of Bahr Albaquar and he told me the shocking truth. The man was telling that this area was a pure military area and the commander of it decided to open a kindergarten for the kids of those who work in the military unite just 48 hours before the Israeli attack and consequently when Israel attacked it they were attacking it on military basis and they never knew of the sudden unpredicted decision of the commander of this military unit.
When I heard this I felt that my whole government was betraying all of us just to make us hate Israel and to portray the Jews as blood suckers.
The moment I heard this story was the moment when I really felt I was betrayed all my life.
I decided not to believe my government any more when they talk about Israel and my desire to talk to the Jews and hear their views from their point of view was even increased.

After this stage I started to join the Islamic movements in the late 1970’s and I actually joined one of the most fundamental Islamic groups back then (Jamaha Islamia). This was the group that produced Alzawahire, the top organiser of Alquaida.
After relatively very short period of time I started to feel that my personality that was open to others, that accepted difference, and that loved peace is changing gradually into a real evil personality.

I felt I will become a real satanic beast if I continued with this group and I started to withdraw from the group “JI” and I developed a new small peaceful sect within the Islamic religion itself. This sect was not only peaceful, but also tolerates difference, and promotes love, care, and compassion to all humans irrespective of their deeds.
According to this sect which follow only the Quran rather than Hadith (written traditions about Mohamed or Sunna) I had totally different view about Israel and the Jews as you will see next.
Based on my interpretation of the Quranic verses which was based on literal pure language interpretation rather than a historical one, I used to love the word, love the meaning, and love the concept of Israel.

Let me now explain this to you in more details.

......


To conclude, as an observer form within the Arab and Muslim world and as a man who just want to say the truth and nothing but the truth, I say it loudly that Israel is the ONLY light of the Middle East.
Israel is the light of love, democracy, civilization, tolerance, and justice and I pray from the depth of my heart that the light of Israel radiates to cover the darkness around it.
It is a dream…..but who knows it may happen.

Do you understand now why I love Israel!

T. Abdelhamid
7/June/2004

taken from http://www.arabsforisrael.com/pages/8/index.htm

[George W. Bush]

I agree.

Good article. People should read it and think about it for a second...

[batman321123]

cool, so this guy saw a picture of a jewish family during hitler's time in germany, and now all of sudden he loves all jews and thinks their the best people in the world? man i wrote better stories in grade 2 than that load of crap


Marky, please swallow this article (from an Arab based website):



By an Arab Egyptian, with a Muslim background and an ex-member of one of the most fanatical Islamic groups in the history of Islam (JI).
T. Abdelhamid

I am a typical Arab- Egyptian- with a Muslim background.
As any Arab, I was brought up on hating Israel and the Jews. When I was four years old, the dehumanisation of the Jews everywhere around me led me to imagine them as green ugly people full of evil.

In the age of six or seven my father who was secular and open minded was reading in a history book and he showed me a photo.
This photo will never be erased from my memory as it was for a whole family without clothes and the father was opening of his eyes in a combination of fear, shock and inability to believe what is happening to him and his family.
My dad said to me in this moment “ these people are called Jews and some one is called Hitler put them in ovens to burn them alive”. My dad was telling this from pure historical point of view. I went to my room and wept over this man and these people.
Since then, every thing changed in my mind regarding the Jews and despite the extreme hatred toward them in the media, in the schools, and everywhere around me, I could not hate them and, in fact I sympathised with them.
This creates a feeling in me that I should meet these people, talk to them, and try to understand them.
As I grew up the hatred in my community was increasing but my feelings did not change.
One day, in my school in Egypt, the teacher asked us to draw something called Bahr Albaquar. They told all the students that Israel attacked a kindergarten and killed the Egyptian kids intentionally. They portrayed Israel and the Jews as bloodsuckers who enjoy killing young Arab kids.
I used to draw this on sheet of paper as I was a young student and I had to obey the teacher, but my feelings toward the Jews remained the same and my desire to see them and talk to them had not changed.

Later in my life, and when I was 15 years old, I met in a family occasion with some doctor who used to work in the area of Bahr Albaquar and he told me the shocking truth. The man was telling that this area was a pure military area and the commander of it decided to open a kindergarten for the kids of those who work in the military unite just 48 hours before the Israeli attack and consequently when Israel attacked it they were attacking it on military basis and they never knew of the sudden unpredicted decision of the commander of this military unit.
When I heard this I felt that my whole government was betraying all of us just to make us hate Israel and to portray the Jews as blood suckers.
The moment I heard this story was the moment when I really felt I was betrayed all my life.
I decided not to believe my government any more when they talk about Israel and my desire to talk to the Jews and hear their views from their point of view was even increased.

After this stage I started to join the Islamic movements in the late 1970’s and I actually joined one of the most fundamental Islamic groups back then (Jamaha Islamia). This was the group that produced Alzawahire, the top organiser of Alquaida.
After relatively very short period of time I started to feel that my personality that was open to others, that accepted difference, and that loved peace is changing gradually into a real evil personality.

I felt I will become a real satanic beast if I continued with this group and I started to withdraw from the group “JI” and I developed a new small peaceful sect within the Islamic religion itself. This sect was not only peaceful, but also tolerates difference, and promotes love, care, and compassion to all humans irrespective of their deeds.
According to this sect which follow only the Quran rather than Hadith (written traditions about Mohamed or Sunna) I had totally different view about Israel and the Jews as you will see next.
Based on my interpretation of the Quranic verses which was based on literal pure language interpretation rather than a historical one, I used to love the word, love the meaning, and love the concept of Israel.

Let me now explain this to you in more details.

......


To conclude, as an observer form within the Arab and Muslim world and as a man who just want to say the truth and nothing but the truth, I say it loudly that Israel is the ONLY light of the Middle East.
Israel is the light of love, democracy, civilization, tolerance, and justice and I pray from the depth of my heart that the light of Israel radiates to cover the darkness around it.
It is a dream…..but who knows it may happen.

Do you understand now why I love Israel!

T. Abdelhamid
7/June/2004

taken from http://www.arabsforisrael.com/pages/8/index.htm

[fakishan]

haha, have to agree that sounded a like a fake story.

but yeah, arabs are thought to hate jews, and vice versa.

[Beradon]

cool, so this guy saw a picture of a jewish family during hitler's time in germany, and now all of sudden he loves all jews and thinks their the best people in the world? man i wrote better stories in grade 2 than that load of crapIf you bothered to read the WHOLE article provided by my link you would've gotten the complete article. I just pasted only the beginning and ending paragraphs to keep it short.
I have to warn you though, it's a long article.

[Casanova]

Good article. People should read it and think about it for a second...


Very insightful article, thanks!

[Beradon]

Good article. People should read it and think about it for a second...Thanks for the praise. For those who missed the complete article: http://www.arabsforisrael.com/pages/8/index.htm

[fakishan]

If you bothered to read the WHOLE article provided by my link you would've gotten the complete article. I just pasted only the beginning and ending paragraphs to keep it short.
I have to warn you though, it's a long article.

huh? where's the point? "if you read the whole article, you would of gotten the complete article" :confused:

[fakishan]

Marc7, read this:

Far from being mistreated, the Arab population in Israel and in the territories administered by Israel has been freer than the population in any Arab state. Arabs in Israel vote. They elect leaders to the Knesset. They have their own political parties. They have their own newspapers. They have full rights to citizenship. They are free to speak their minds. As an Arab-American journalist who has spent a good deal of time covering the region, I can tell you there is more freedom for Arabs in Israel than in any Arab state.

Land cannot possibly be the contentious issue as the Arab and Muslim states in the region already have 800 times as much territory as Israel. The Arabs have 50 times the population of Israel. The Arabs have all of the oil reserves of the region. They have 21 states of their own – all varying shades of police states. It's difficult to imagine how one more will bring peace to a region that has known some of the most devastating and costly wars of the last century.

[Beradon]

huh? where's the point? "if you read the whole article, you would of gotten the complete article" :confused:The point is, she didn't read the entire article by clicking on the link. She commented on the few paragraphs I provided. Clear enough?

[fakishan]

The point is, she didn't read the entire article by clicking on the link. She commented on the few paragraphs I provided. Clear enough?

yes. my two paragraphs above also somewhatt support that letter. I didn't know arabs had full citizenship in Israel. Naturally a minority power in politics, but still.

Some more:

In 1949, the Arab population of Israel was about 160,000. Today, it is over 1.2 million.

This is hardly attributable to higher birth rates. Most of the growth in Arab population is due to migration. In other words, Arabs are picking up stakes in Arab lands and choosing to live in Israel.

This trend, of course, doesn't include Arab Jewish migration to Israel. No one talks about the staggering number of Arab Jewish refugees – as many as 1 million – who fled the Muslim world with little more than the clothes on their backs to reach the safety and security of the Jewish state in the last 50 years.

We're led to believe Arabs hate Israel – and, indeed, it's true there is an irrational, inexplicable form of virulent anti-Semitism growing in the Arab and Muslim world. But when they vote with their feet, Arabs seem to love Israel. They continue to choose it as a place to live over life in their native countries as they have for the last half-century.

[Paksis]

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/4450582.stm




Index ranks Middle East freedom
There is a wide range of democratisation across the Middle East, a survey by a leading research and advisory firm has found.
The Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU) ranked 20 countries on 15 indicators of political and civil liberty.

The Index of Political Freedom lists Israel, Lebanon, Morocco, Iraq and the Palestinian Territories as the most democratic parts of the region.

Libya received the lowest rating, below Syria and Saudi Arabia.

Reform resisted

The EIU scored each country on a 10-point scale, awarding one point for the least political freedom and 10 for the most.


INDEX OF POLITICAL FREEDOM
Israel: 8.20
Lebanon: 6.55
Morocco: 5.20
Iraq: 5.05
Palestine: 5.05
Kuwait: 4.90
Tunisia: 4.60
Jordan: 4.45
Qatar: 4.45
Egypt: 4.30
Sudan: 4.30
Yemen: 4.30
Algeria: 4.15
Oman: 4.00
Bahrain: 3.85
Iran: 3.85
UAE: 3.70
Saudi Arabia: 2.80
Syria: 2.80
Libya: 2.05
Source: EIU

The analysts found little evidence of democratisation in some countries.

Sitting at the bottom of the table, Libya has long had a reputation as one of the world's worst violators of human rights.

Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's government has also long restricted freedom of expression and independent political activity.

Saudi Arabia held its first ever exercise in democracy in February 2005 when it held municipal elections, but remains an absolute monarchy that has resisted pressure for reform.

Syria, meanwhile, is renowned for its authoritarian rule even though there has been a degree of liberalisation under President Bashar al-Assad.

Progress

Though there are few surprises at the bottom of the table, the top five may raise eyebrows.

It contains three of the most volatile parts of the region: Lebanon, the Palestinian Territories and Iraq.


FREEDOM INDICATORS
Election of head of government
Election of parliament
Fairness of electoral laws
Right to organise political parties
Power of elected representatives
Presence of an opposition
Transparency
Minority participation
Level of corruption
Freedom of assembly
Independence of the judiciary
Press freedom
Religious freedom
Rule of law
Property rights
Source: EIU

BBC Middle East analyst Roger Hardy says there is unquestionably a new mood in the region, but progress has been uneven.

Lebanon is free in a very particular sense: it is no longer under military occupation.

Most Palestinians do not enjoy that freedom, and yet they have just had local elections and are preparing for parliamentary ones in January, our correspondent says.

As for Iraq, its high score is a bit surprising, given the level of violence there, our correspondent says.

Iraqis no long live under a dictatorship and now have plenty of publications and political parties to choose from. But their freedom of movement is constrained by the bombings and kidnappings, and that is a big limitation.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/4450582.stm

[poedua]

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/4450582.stm





INDEX OF POLITICAL FREEDOM
Israel: 8.20
Lebanon: 6.55
Morocco: 5.20
Iraq: 5.05
Palestine: 5.05
Kuwait: 4.90
Tunisia: 4.60
Jordan: 4.45
Qatar: 4.45
Egypt: 4.30
Sudan: 4.30
Yemen: 4.30
Algeria: 4.15
Oman: 4.00
Bahrain: 3.85
Iran: 3.85
UAE: 3.70
Saudi Arabia: 2.80
Syria: 2.80
Libya: 2.05
Source: EIU


FREEDOM INDICATORS
Election of head of government
Election of parliament
Fairness of electoral laws
Right to organise political parties
Power of elected representatives
Presence of an opposition
Transparency
Minority participation
Level of corruption
Freedom of assembly
Independence of the judiciary
Press freedom
Religious freedom
Rule of law
Property rights
Source: EIU

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Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/4450582.stm

Intersting post - good list of indicators.

Any idea where China and North Korea would / do score ?????