Canada to repay Chinese immigrants

[firehawk12]

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/11/17/head-tax051117.html

While there is a group that feels that the payouts aren't enough, and the douchebag Canadian Taxpayers Federation that is against payouts in general, Canada FINALLY officially acknowledges what it did to thousands of Chinese immigrants in the 19th and 20th century and admits that it did something wrong.

I actually have a friend who is a descendant of the original group, so at least he might get something.

Still, it's about time... it's like every single other ethnic group got something except the Chinese. Yeesh.

[cipher]

My parents immigrated in 1963 and the head tax wasn't repealed until 1967...so are they entitled to anything?

[TrevorK]

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/11/17/head-tax051117.html

While there is a group that feels that the payouts aren't enough, and the douchebag Canadian Taxpayers Federation that is against payouts in general, Canada FINALLY officially acknowledges what it did to thousands of Chinese immigrants in the 19th and 20th century and admits that it did something wrong.

I actually have a friend who is a descendant of the original group, so at least he might get something.

Still, it's about time... it's like every single other ethnic group got something except the Chinese. Yeesh.

Ukranians didn't get anything for when they were interned during the war.

[firehawk12]

^^
Didn't know that... well, there's something we should fix as well.

My parents immigrated in 1963 and the head tax wasn't repealed until 1967...so are they entitled to anything?

No idea... I guess you should contact one of the groups?

There's another group that wants to stop these payments because they don't think it's enough. So, this story isn't completely finished.

[fakishan]

Still, it's about time... it's like every single other ethnic group got something except the Chinese. Yeesh.


It's good news. :)

Now, can you tell me who these other ethnic groups are? Who received what for what?

[Blazin_Sunfire]

Ukranians didn't get anything for when they were interned during the war.

exactly!

[gman]

Well, this is yet another BS as far as the head taxed Chinese descendants concern. And, at least a portion of Chinese community considers that is another Liberal scandal.

1. the organization that is representing head taxed Chinese descendants and was fighting for the head tax compensation for years is not involved in this decision at all. They were not even consulted.

2. The so call National Congress of Chinese Canadians is appointed by Liberals to do this so call "negotiation". That is another $12.5 million goes to yet another pro-Liberals organization.

3. The head taxed Chinese descendants are pissed by the decision. They do not like this decision and they are protesting it. The Chinese community in general is upset about this too.

[gman]

There's another group that wants to stop these payments because they don't think it's enough. So, this story isn't completely finished.

There is no payment. At least, no payment to the Chinese descendants. The money is paid to a Liberal appointed organization to "eduate" Canadian about the "history".

[firehawk12]

I just assumed that this group would distribute the money equally to all claimants. The CBC report isn't that specific.

If this is just another pointless group, then yeah, I'd be pissed as well too.

Still, I'm just kind of happy that they acknowledged the problem at all. For the longest time, nobody even cared.

[ronin893]

There is no payment. At least, no payment to the Chinese descendants. The money is paid to a Liberal appointed organization to "eduate" Canadian about the "history".
Wow, you make it sound like it's the money that's important.

[gman]

Wow, you make it sound like it's the money that's important.

Do you remember why the current Liberals is in trouble?
Somebody gives money to somebody to do ads to "educate" some people.

[Hairball]

Being a Chinese person myself, I think they should not pay anything back at all, this will set a precedent, and there would be ramifications if other ethnic groups demand compensation from the government, how much are we supposed to pay?

That's part of the reason why the government will never explicitly "apologize" for these terrible things that they've done... they usually only just "acknowledge" the wrongdoing.

But I watched the news earlier today, it seems like there is more than one group seeking justice, and I think this might be why there's some opposition.

[darren9]

Read carefully, there will be no formal apology or any payouts. The $12.5M is for some 'foundation' that they cannot provide any details about.

The government collected $23M in head taxes which is equivalent to hundreds of millions based on today's value.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051117/051117_chinese_compensation/20051117?hub=Canada

The Canadian government collected $23 million from more than 80,000 Chinese immigrants between 1885 and 1923

[gman]

But I watched the news earlier today, it seems like there is more than one group seeking justice, and I think this might be why there's some opposition.

The appointed group is NOT the one who was seeking justice. They are just appointed. Again, they did not seek for justice but suddently one day they are the one. They have no representation of the head taxed Chinese. They contain no voice of the head taxed Chinese.

[firehawk12]

Well, apparently this comes after an apology to Italian Canadians... and we've already paid back Japanese Canadians, so it's not like this is setting a precedent or anything.

But yeah, if this group thing is true, then that other group should sue them.

[ronin893]

The appointed group is NOT the one who was seeking justice. They are just appointed. Again, they did not seek for justice but suddently one day they are the one. They have no representation of the head taxed Chinese. They contain no voice of the head taxed Chinese.
What kind of justice are you looking for? Nobody forced the head taxed Chinese to pay up. They could have stayed in China if coming to Canada was so unjust.

Acknowledgement of wrongdoing is the least that I would expect. This is the most important part; asking for financial compensation is just greedy. Having said that, some money to a foundation to fund programs for the Chinese community is a nice gesture as well. I expect the money will be used to run some weekend Chinese schools and sponsor some community events during Chinese New Year and Mid-Autumn Festival. I consider that a reasonable deal.

The National Congress of Chinese Canadians was appointed to negotiate; they won't receive the money as you suggested. No one is lining their pockets with this. If they are, show me explicitly how.

PS: In case you are wondering, I am Chinese and I have a relative who was head taxed.

[gman]

What kind of justice are you looking for? Nobody forced the head taxed Chinese to pay up. They could have stayed in China if coming to Canada was so unjust.

Acknowledgement of wrongdoing is the least that I would expect. This is the most important part; asking for financial compensation is just greedy. Having said that, some money to a foundation to fund programs for the Chinese community is a nice gesture as well. I expect the money will be used to run some weekend Chinese schools and sponsor some community events during Chinese New Year and Mid-Autumn Festival. I consider that a reasonable deal.

The National Congress of Chinese Canadians was appointed to negotiate; they won't receive the money as you suggested. No one is lining their pockets with this. If they are, show me explicitly how.

PS: In case you are wondering, I am Chinese and I have a relative who was head taxed.

I guess you have not read what I wrote. I did not even mention if the government should or should not pay. I did not mention if the head taxed Chinese should be compensated or not.

My argument was why the hell Liberals chose an organization which had done nothing about the issue to "represent" the head taxed Chinese? They could have at least consulted with the established organization which lobbied for the issue for decade.

I have no problem if the government appointing an organization to use the fund after they have done their homework properly.

How can an organization which has no representation of the head taxed chinese to say "we have concluded the negotiations and now we are looking forward to signing the agreement with the federal government as soon as possible"?

It is like I ask you for compensation. You appointed a person to represent me without even telling me and that person did not talk to me. When you tell me about such person, you two concluded the negotiations. I don't know what your reaction would be. My reaction would be WTF.

About showing you how. How did the Ad gate happen? Did our ex-PM say "please pocket it everybody"? On the other hand, to be fair, I don't think (or hope) this will happen (mainly because it will be watched closely by the Chinese community now). However, I do think the money is wasted. I personally prefer they don't spend those money (that $12.5 million).

BTW, spending the money to a general Chinese community is NOT a reasonable deal. The majority of the current Chinese community are not the descendants of the head taxed chinese. I don't see any reason the generic Chinese community should be compensated in any form or shape unless it is related to the head tax issue.

[poedua]

What kind of justice are you looking for? Nobody forced the head taxed Chinese to pay up. They could have stayed in China if coming to Canada was so unjust.

Acknowledgement of wrongdoing is the least that I would expect. This is the most important part; asking for financial compensation is just greedy. Having said that, some money to a foundation to fund programs for the Chinese community is a nice gesture as well. I expect the money will be used to run some weekend Chinese schools and sponsor some community events during Chinese New Year and Mid-Autumn Festival. I consider that a reasonable deal.

The National Congress of Chinese Canadians was appointed to negotiate; they won't receive the money as you suggested. No one is lining their pockets with this. If they are, show me explicitly how.

PS: In case you are wondering, I am Chinese and I have a relative who was head taxed.

I agree that the immigration policy was racist.

Buy i agree with you, didn't these Chinese immigrants voluntarily pay this tax - didn't they have a choice, before deciding to come to Canada or not, whether to be party to this sick racist policy and given the choice to immigrate or not, paid it willingly - they knew about the tax up front ...yet came and paid it anyway ?

Isn't this different from the internment of Japanese Canadians during WW 2 ?
Three quarters of the Japanese were naturalized or native-born Canadian. citizens. Thousands of innocent Japanese Canadian citizens ( women and children ) and some whose families has been in Canada for three generations or more, were arrested, had their property seized...they had no choice. They were put in concentration camps for doing ' nothing '. There were no homes, farms, and other property left behind before internment. Afterwrds, they were forced to start their lives over, with no economic resources.

So so can't compare the Chinese head tax to the internment of innocent Japanese Canadians IMO - 2 different issues.

[JimG]

What's this paying money for? An apology should be enough. Societal values change over time, we can't just keep paying for past decisions that have become unpopular in the present. I'll bet there are decisions made today, that we're going to be paying people money for in 50 years.

[ClubberLang]

what some of you fail to recognize is that the Canadian Government is a LEGAL ENTITY. It's like a person. Just because "values change" and different Governments are elected legal and moral responsibility doesn't vanish.

[Siefer999]

$500 was a lot back then and for most of the people involved with talks with the gov't, It isnt about the money... its about acknowlegding that something wrong happened in the first place. If the canadian gov't did something wrong to another race of people and pretended/denied that it never happened, is that acceptable?

are any of you decendents of someone who paid?

[poedua]

What's this paying money for? An apology should be enough. Societal values change over time, we can't just keep paying for past decisions that have become unpopular in the present. I'll bet there are decisions made today, that we're going to be paying people money for in 50 years.

Some past injustices.......

1847-1985:Forced Assimilation and Abuse of Aboriginal children in Residential Schools
1885-1946: Chinese Head Tax and Exclusion Acts [ Chinese paid $22 million ]
1891-1956: Imprisonment of Lepers, mostly Chinese, on two Victoria Area Islands;
1900-1932: Unjust Treatment of Blacks from the Caribbean;
1914-1920: Internment of Ukrainian Canadians during WWI;
1938-1948: Denial of Entry to persons of Jewish descent in Canada;
1940-1943: Internment of Italian Canadians during WWII;
1940-1943: Internment of German Canadians during WWII;
1942-1949: Internment of Japanese Canadians during and after WWII; and
Post 1949: Denial of benefits to Aboriginal War Veterans.

Claims by Ukrainian, Italian and Chinese Canadians, an announcement was made in the House of Commons in September of 1994 that no redress of any kind would be offered to these groups.

The government won't pay future compensation for past racial wrongs acknowledging that “human history has not been one of inclusion and respect, but rather has been and somewhat remains one often characterized by racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance” and that “Canada believes that acknowledging injustices in history ... essential to reconciliation” and states that although work is needed to build a future free from racial (and other) discrimination, the government of Canada does “not believe that granting financial compensation for historical action is appropriate”.

The governement seems to agree with you - an apology or some funding toward future education on racial tolerence is more appopriate than cash.

[poedua]

what some of you fail to recognize is that the Canadian Government is a LEGAL ENTITY. It's like a person. Just because "values change" and different Governments are elected legal and moral responsibility doesn't vanish.

Correct...we SHOULD apologise..that's it.

[poedua]

$500 was a lot back then and for most of the people involved with talks with the gov't, It isnt about the money... its about acknowlegding that something wrong happened in the first place. If the canadian gov't did something wrong to another race of people and pretended/denied that it never happened, is that acceptable?

are any of you decendents of someone who paid?

Smarten up ...no one 'pretended / denied' it ever happened ...all acknowledge it's a historical fact.

[d_jedi]

I am opposed to this payout as well. The people who immigrated here and paid the head tax did so of their own free will. You can't apply 21 century laws and morals to 19th and early 20th century situations - at the time, without the Charter of Rights and other legislation, the head tax was perfectly legal.

The cynic in me thinks this is just another attempt by the Liberal party to buy votes (which may backfire..), as I'll bet they expected it to be popular in the Chinese community, and unknown of/indifferent to the rest of Canada.

[ronin893]

I guess you have not read what I wrote. I did not even mention if the government should or should not pay. I did not mention if the head taxed Chinese should be compensated or not.
This is what you wrote. "There is no payment. At least, no payment to the Chinese descendants. The money is paid to a Liberal appointed organization to "eduate" Canadian about the "history". Then I questioned you whether it is the money that is important. Instead of refuting this idea, you responded, "Do you remember why the current Liberals is in trouble? Somebody gives money to somebody to do ads to "educate" some people." What am I to conclude from that? Gee, excuse me for misunderstaning.

BTW, spending the money to a general Chinese community is NOT a reasonable deal. The majority of the current Chinese community are not the descendants of the head taxed chinese. I don't see any reason the generic Chinese community should be compensated in any form or shape unless it is related to the head tax issue.
Okay, we can have weekend schools speaking Hoisan. LOL.

[IronMac]

Well, this is yet another BS as far as the head taxed Chinese descendants concern. And, at least a portion of Chinese community considers that is another Liberal scandal.



Did the Tories do anything about this "scandal" in all their years in power? No. So, stop saying that it's a Liberal scandal because it's really a Canadian scandal.

[IronMac]

I think they should not pay anything back at all, this will set a precedent, and there would be ramifications if other ethnic groups demand compensation from the government, how much are we supposed to pay?


So, denying justice for one group is good because you can then deny justice to all other wronged groups?

There's a Chinese saying...it goes something like this "so dumb that he can't die". I might be mistranslating it but I'm hoping that you're able to get the idea.

[Happy13178]

Read carefully, there will be no formal apology or any payouts. The $12.5M is for some 'foundation' that they cannot provide any details about.

The government collected $23M in head taxes which is equivalent to hundreds of millions based on today's value.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051117/051117_chinese_compensation/20051117?hub=Canada

The Canadian government collected $23 million from more than 80,000 Chinese immigrants between 1885 and 1923

That may be true, but there isn't a chance in hell the government would ever pay back hundreds of millions of dollars for that. Whether it's right or not, they just won't.

[IronMac]

What kind of justice are you looking for? Nobody forced the head taxed Chinese to pay up. They could have stayed in China if coming to Canada was so unjust.

PS: In case you are wondering, I am Chinese and I have a relative who was head taxed.

Nobody forced them to pay up? What? You think that as a Chinese you can then walk in? :lol:

First of all, this legislation was based on racist policies. Other immigrant groups at the time were INVITED over and GIVEN free land. If you don't call that unfair then I don't know what it can be called.
Second, if you couldn't pay up then you were essentially stuck in a place where there was essentially little or no prosperity. Thank your lucky stars that someone in your lineage was able to scrape together the money to come over here.

[IronMac]

Buy i agree with you, didn't these Chinese immigrants voluntarily pay this tax - didn't they have a choice, before deciding to come to Canada or not, whether to be party to this sick racist policy and given the choice to immigrate or not, paid it willingly - they knew about the tax up front ...yet came and paid it anyway ?

If I forced you to sign a contract to sell me your house or wife or dog for $40 bucks...and you signed it...does that still make it right?

[IronMac]

What's this paying money for? An apology should be enough. Societal values change over time, we can't just keep paying for past decisions that have become unpopular in the present.

Check your history, bud. Racist policies such as slavery were outlawed in the British Empre long before this particularly racist policy was instituted. I seem to recall that Canada was part of the Empire at that time. Canada even saw the Americans fight a bloody civil war over the very same issue while we were welcoming escaped slaves to the country.
And, this policy was still in place until 1967!!! I know that anything that happened before you were born is ancient history but that's not true.

[Happy13178]

Nobody forced them to pay up? What? You think that as a Chinese you can then walk in? :lol:

First of all, this legislation was based on racist policies. Other immigrant groups at the time were INVITED over and GIVEN free land. If you don't call that unfair then I don't know what it can be called.
Second, if you couldn't pay up then you were essentially stuck in a place where there was essentially little or no prosperity. Thank your lucky stars that someone in your lineage was able to scrape together the money to come over here.

Agreed. Show me a country that has never had racist policies in the past. It doesn't exist. The fact is, that Canada recognized that it was a racist policy and repealed it, even if it was late. Now their immigration policy at least tries to be fair and non-discriminatory. Something that can't be said for plenty of other nations.

[poedua]

If I forced you to sign a contract to sell me your house or wife or dog for $40 bucks...and you signed it...does that still make it right?


Racially based immigration is unacceptable.

The best thing to do as an immigrant is to avoid countries that practice it - wouldn't you say.. if Canada asks for immigranst and a head tax .t.ell canada " screw you..I'l got somewhere else "

Did somone ' force to ' you to immigrate to Canada or did you choose to come to canada ?? - knowing of the head tax well in advance - of your free will......instead of going to Austalia or New Zealand or Japan ?

[poedua]

Check your history, bud. Racist policies such as slavery were outlawed in the British Empre long before this particularly racist policy was instituted. I seem to recall that Canada was part of the Empire at that time. Canada even saw the Americans fight a bloody civil war over the very same issue while we were welcoming escaped slaves to the country.
And, this policy was still in place until 1967!!! I know that anything that happened before you were born is ancient history but that's not true.

What policy in 1967 ?

Back- up proof ?

Link perhaps ?

[IronMac]

Racially based immigration is unacceptable.

The best thing to do as an immigrant is to avoid countries that practice it - wouldn't you say.. if Canada asks for immigranst and a head tax .t.ell canada " screw you..I'l got somewhere else "

Did somone ' force to ' you to immigrate to Canada or did you choose to come to canada ?? - knowing of the head tax well in advance - of your free will......instead of going to Austalia or New Zealand or Japan ?

Avoid countries that practised racist policies? Great idea..that means that the white European immigrants should have avoided Canada? :lol:

BTW, Australia and New Zealand both had Chinese head taxes.

[poedua]

Nobody forced them to pay up? What? You think that as a Chinese you can then walk in? :lol:

First of all, this legislation was based on racist policies. Other immigrant groups at the time were INVITED over and GIVEN free land. If you don't call that unfair then I don't know what it can be called.
Second, if you couldn't pay up then you were essentially stuck in a place where there was essentially little or no prosperity. Thank your lucky stars that someone in your lineage was able to scrape together the money to come over here.

Simple solution...don't go to canada ...tell canda to ' take a hike...I'm going elsewhere...a country that isn't racist "

Why would anyone with any brains WANT to go to a country that is racist toward them - specifically ?

[IronMac]

What policy in 1967 ?

Back- up proof ?

Link perhaps ?

Here goes:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/11/17/head-tax051117.html

Line 1 Paragraph 6.

Next! :lol:

[IronMac]

Simple solution...don't go to canada ...tell canda to ' take a hike...I'm going elsewhere...a country that isn't racist "

Why would anyone with any brains WANT to go to a country that is racist toward them - specifically ?

Why do you think? Wouldn't you want to go to a place that was called "Golden Mountain"? :lol:

Next!

[poedua]

Avoid countries that practised racist policies? Great idea..that means that the white European immigrants should have avoided Canada? :lol:

BTW, Australia and New Zealand both had Chinese head taxes.

Don't go to Canada then - simple ...this isn't rocket science.

The Italians, Japanese and Germans interred in canada didn't have that luxury I'm afraid.

[poedua]

Why do you think? Wouldn't you want to go to a place that was "Golden Mountain"? :lol:

Not if it was racist and had a head tax - would you go there under those racist conditions ????

very few would

[IronMac]

Don't go to Canada then - simple ...this isn't rocket science.

The Italians, Japanese and Germans interred in canada didn't have that luxury I'm afraid.

The Japanese/Canadians were allowed to move back to Japan after the war. I don't know about the Italians or the Germans but those are separate issues from this.

[divx]

Wow, you make it sound like it's the money that's important.
head tax was worth 2 years of wage, don't you think that's important?

[IronMac]

Not if it was racist and had a head tax - would you go there under those racist conditions ????

very few would

Really? Evidently, thousands of Chinese did.

[poedua]

Here goes:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/11/17/head-tax051117.html

Line 1 Paragraph 6.

Next! :lol:

An exlusiuon act is ridiculous..... canada should be ashamed of itself

[poedua]

Really? Evidently, thousands of Chinese did.

The question is why...of their own free will I might add.

candians didn't force them to come ..that's for sure...who ' conned ' them in to coming in to a 'racist hell' for them ?????

[poedua]

head tax was worth 2 years of wage, don't you think that's important?


Again, the knew that and they came ANYWAY...why ??????

[IronMac]

The question is why...of their own free will I might add.

candians didn't force them to come ..that's for sure...who ' conned ' them in to coming in to a 'racist hell' for them ?????

For an object lesson as to why, how about I stick you on a plot of land up north that's about 1 acre in size and tell you to feed yourself and your family on it for the rest of your life. That should answer the question soon enough. :lol:

I swear...anyone who has immigrant grandparents and asked them these sort of questions would get a dumbfounded look and a massive wallop upside of their heads.

[poedua]

For an object lesson as to why, how about I stick you on a plot of land up north that's about 1 acre in size and tell you to feed yourself and your family on it for the rest of your life. That should answer the question soon enough. :lol:

Did the Chinese come to canada - with the Chinese knowing well in advance of the head tax - of their own free will - YES or NO ?

Let's get his point out of the way before we continue this debate.

What's you opnion ???...YES or NO.

And if NO...who forced them to come...who should we blame ?????

[Happy13178]

For an object lesson as to why, how about I stick you on a plot of land up north that's about 1 acre in size and tell you to feed yourself and your family on it for the rest of your life. That should answer the question soon enough. :lol:
I swear...anyone who has immigrant grandparents and asked them these sort of questions would get a dumbfounded look and a massive wallop upside of their heads.



I don't see your point here. Just about all the immigrants who came here early enough were given land and left to fend for themselves. It doesn't really answer anything.

I have immigrant grandparents, and I would assume that if I asked them why they came here, it was because there was work and opportunity here. poedua's right, that doesn't constitute forcing anyone to come and pay the tax. This isn't to say that the head tax was right, but if they didn't want to pay it, they didn't have to come either. It's like anything else...If I go to the movies and they tell me its $13 for the ticket to get in, and I don't want to pay it, I don't go to the movie.

[IronMac]

Did the Chinese come to canada - with the Chinese knowing well in advance of the head tax - of their own free will - YES or NO ?

Let's get his point out of the way before we continue this debate.

What's you opnion ???...YES or NO.

And if NO...who forced them to come...who should we blame ?????

Of course, they paid! Sheesh man! What's the choice? Why don't you look up the conditions in southern China before asking nonsensical questions.

[Truth]

Chinese people were often attacked and even killed back then. When the mines and other dangerous job's conditions were too rough for the Chinese they would protest.

Being that the Chinese were considered second class beings to the Whites, they were often shot to death or beaten severely during their protest.

There have been lynchings in California, riot attacks in various parts of the U.S and Canada (San Fransisco and Vancouver are just two of many) .

The Head Tax was just one of many things Chinese had to endure.

Also Opium had taken over many lives and Souls thanks to the British...

don't think Asians had it the same as European immigrants. One thing that seperated us from Whites easily was our physical features. Walking down the street being Asian EVERYONE would know you are different from them. To imply all Chinese went through was the Head Tax as if everything else was a walk through the park is disgusting of you people. I am offended as a fellow Asian how people make it seem as if we were just like any other immigrant groups who came here with the same opportunities as Whites.

I know a lot of Whites are gonna attack me now for my thoughts.

[IronMac]

I don't see your point here. Just about all the immigrants who came here early enough were given land and left to fend for themselves. It doesn't really answer anything.

One acre versus about forty? Look it up and you will get your answer.

Actually, I did look it up:

"However, some settlers could qualify for a "free" quarter-section homestead grant (160 acres or 65 hectares) upon payment of a $10 registration fee."

And, yes, I can back that up too. ;)

[poedua]

Of course, they paid! Sheesh man! What's the choice? Why don't you look up the conditions in southern China before asking nonsensical questions.

You didn't answer my question.........


" Did the Chinese come to Canada - with the Chinese knowing well in advance of the head tax - of their own free will "


Again...YES...or ...No........ ??????

[Happy13178]

One acre versus about forty? Look it up and you will get your answer.

So? According to you, conditions were horrible in China at the time, so how was this not better than the alternative? Even with the head tax?

[poedua]

So? According to you, conditions were horrible in China at the time, so how was this not better than the alternative? Even with the head tax?

Very well said...exactly !!!!!!!

[IronMac]

You didn't answer my question.........


" Did the Chinese come to Canada - with the Chinese knowing well in advance of the head tax - of their own free will "


Again...YES...or ...No........ ??????

Yes they did. Does that make you happy?

(Let's see what sort of trap he thinks he's sprung!)

[Happy13178]

Yes they did. Does that make you happy?

(Let's see what sort of trap he thinks he's sprung!)

Being a dink to poedua doesn't change what he's saying. He's not saying that what happened to Chinese immigrants was right. But they had a choice, even if it wasn't one they liked. If they didn't want to pay the head tax, they didn't have to come to Canada. Or New Zealand, or anywhere else that had a tax like that. There are more countries in the world than Canada...they could have picked one of them to go to.

[IronMac]

I don't see your point here. Just about all the immigrants who came here early enough were given land and left to fend for themselves. It doesn't really answer anything.

I have immigrant grandparents, and I would assume that if I asked them why they came here, it was because there was work and opportunity here. poedua's right, that doesn't constitute forcing anyone to come and pay the tax. This isn't to say that the head tax was right, but if they didn't want to pay it, they didn't have to come either. It's like anything else...If I go to the movies and they tell me its $13 for the ticket to get in, and I don't want to pay it, I don't go to the movie.

First of all, the head tax also prevented the men from bringing over their wives.
Second, if the movie theatre charged you a different rate because of your skin colour...would that make it right?

[IronMac]

Being a dink to poedua doesn't change what he's saying.

Kettle...meet pot.

[Happy13178]

First of all, the head tax also prevented the men from bringing over their wives.
Second, if the movie theatre charged you a different rate because of your skin colour...would that make it right?

Still not saying the head tax was right. And no, it wouldn't make it right, but again, if I didn't want to pay, I wouldn't go.

[Happy13178]

Kettle...meet pot.

You're arguing just for the sake of arguing then. Why don't you bother quoting the rest of the post? For that matter, why don't you explain why its a case of the kettle calling the pot black?

[IronMac]

I don't see your point here. Just about all the immigrants who came here early enough were given land and left to fend for themselves. It doesn't really answer anything.

The original point that I was trying to make is that the Chinese immigrants were facing a rather unpalatable fate. Starve or put up with a racist policy.

[poedua]

Yes they did. Does that make you happy?

(Let's see what sort of trap he thinks he's sprung!)

Did the Italian, Japanese and German Canadians that were sent to concentration camps by Canada ( in Canada ) in WW 2 know in advance, AND did they enter the concentration camps of their own free will ???

YES...or....NO ????

Nuff said.

[poedua]

The original point that I was trying to make is that the Chinese immigrants were facing a rather unpalatable fate. Starve or put up with a racist policy.

We understsnd that...just don't go to Canada(it's racist ) ..theirs other countries in the world closer to china too.

[Happy13178]

The original point that I was trying to make is that the Chinese immigrants were facing a rather unpalatable fate. Starve or put up with a racist policy.

OR....here's another choice....go somewhere else!

[poedua]

OR....here's another choice....go somewhere else!

Bingo !

[gman]

This is what you wrote. "There is no payment. At least, no payment to the Chinese descendants. The money is paid to a Liberal appointed organization to "eduate" Canadian about the "history". Then I questioned you whether it is the money that is important. Instead of refuting this idea, you responded, "Do you remember why the current Liberals is in trouble? Somebody gives money to somebody to do ads to "educate" some people." What am I to conclude from that? Gee, excuse me for misunderstaning.

Because I replied to another post and you jump in without considering that. You should have read what I quoted too.
You read that out of context, this is the post (http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2413075&postcount=8) I replied.

There's another group that wants to stop these payments because they don't think it's enough. So, this story isn't completely finished.
I explained to him the payment is not what he thought.

[gman]

Did the Tories do anything about this "scandal" in all their years in power? No. So, stop saying that it's a Liberal scandal because it's really a Canadian scandal.
I did not make it clear. The scandal is I refered to Liberals gives money $12.5 million to a pro-Liberal chinese group to control the usage of it. And, this group does not qualify to do so because they do not represent the head taxed chinese, IMO. The whole process does not sound right.

[mingming]

We understsnd that...just don't go to Canada(it's racist ) ..theirs other countries in the world closer to china too.

I have to agree with poedua on this (first time!! WOW!!!). But hard to find a country that is less racist than Canada. We are probably the LEAST racist of all the popular choices to immigrate.

[Happy13178]

I did not make it clear. The scandal is I refered to Liberals gives money $12.5 million to a pro-Liberal chinese group to control the usage of it. And, this group does not qualify to do so because they do not represent the head taxed chinese, IMO. The whole process does not sound right.

No, but it is understandable. The Liberals gave the money to a group they could monitor, to make sure the money is being used "right". I can understand that more than if they just handed some group of people millions of dollars.

[ClubberLang]

The "Go somewhere else if you don't like the head tax" is an absolute load of crap.


It's like someone being denied access to a job interview based on their ethnicity and being told "If you don't like it go apply for a job at a different company".


And SMC @ the "apologize" but don't pay a cent argument. That's a shallow apology.

[poedua]

I have to agree with poedua on this (first time!! WOW!!!). But hard to find a country that is less racist than Canada. We are probably the LEAST racist of all the popular choices to immigrate.

I'm wrong most of the time ...so my kids tell me.......don't worry, it's jut a fluke I'm making some sense this go around.

Appreciate the support nonethless.

[Happy13178]

The "Go somewhere else if you don't like the head tax" is an absolute load of crap.


It's like someone being denied access to a job interview based on their ethnicity and being told "If you don't like it go apply for a job at a different company".


And SMC @ the "apologize" but don't pay a cent argument. That's a shallow apology.

Right now, you're right, its absolutely a load of crap, and would never be tolerated. But when it was in effect, would you really want to go work for a place that had policy like that? It's not an excuse, but they DID have a choice.

[ClubberLang]

Right now, you're right, its absolutely a load of crap, and would never be tolerated. But when it was in effect, would you really want to go work for a place that had policy like that? It's not an excuse, but they DID have a choice.

This is totally overlooking the issue at hand. The Canadian Federal Government had a RESPONSIBILITY to treat foreign immigrants equally. They failed to meet that responsibilty by discriminating against Chinese Canadians because of the colour of their skin.

No legal framework that I can think of could possibly argue that when an organization (gov't in this case) fails to uphold basic human rights by discriminating based on race that victims of discrimination have no grounds for appeal because they knowingly endured that discrimination. Especially when you consider the dire situation of Chinese immigrants at the time.

Overlooking Gov't responsibility and focussing on the "choice" of chinese immigrants is absurd. It's like someone offering you food to feed your family, in exchange for raping your first born child... then going to court and pleading not guilty to rape because you could have starved.

[Truth]

The "Go somewhere else if you don't like the head tax" is an absolute load of crap.


It's like someone being denied access to a job interview based on their ethnicity and being told "If you don't like it go apply for a job at a different company".


And SMC @ the "apologize" but don't pay a cent argument. That's a shallow apology.


exactly good point. This country was Aboriginal land in the first place. What gave the White "IMMIGRANTS" THE RIGHT TO TAX ANY OTHER IMMIGRANTS CUZ THEY WERE ASIAN AND NOT WHITE??? Colonizers were jerks.

[Happy13178]

exactly good point. This country was Aboriginal land in the first place. What gave the White "IMMIGRANTS" THE RIGHT TO TAX ANY OTHER IMMIGRANTS CUZ THEY WERE ASIAN AND NOT WHITE??? Colonizers were jerks.

Yes, they were. On a side note, when was the charter of rights and freedoms established in Canada? Ensuring equal rights for everyone, regardless of race, gender, religion, etc...

[gman]

Still not saying the head tax was right. And no, it wouldn't make it right, but again, if I didn't want to pay, I wouldn't go.

Yes, you would pay if you were told Canada is heaven and you would be rich to cover the 'cost' in no time and you believed that. Then, once you are here, you paid and the 'heaven' and 'be rich' part disappeared.

[gman]

No, but it is understandable. The Liberals gave the money to a group they could monitor, to make sure the money is being used "right". I can understand that more than if they just handed some group of people millions of dollars.

No, it is not. This Congress is not just using the money but also negotiate with the government in behalf of the head taxed chinese. How can they do that in behalf of a head taxed chinese if this Congress don't even consult them?

As I said before,

It is like I ask you for compensation. You appointed a person to represent me without even telling me and that person did not talk to me. When you tell me about such person, you two concluded the negotiations. I don't know what your reaction would be. My reaction would be WTF.

Are you okay with that?

[Final Lazy]

Why did the Chinese came to Canada? read (http://collections.ic.gc.ca/generations/emigrants/railway.html)

They were promised by the government that they are allowed to stay as a citizen of Canada after the construction of the Railway. But when they finally managed to stay and want to bring their family to this wonderful country. They discover that they need to pay a head tax for their spouse and children.

If you understand anything about Chinese traditions, the Chinese people value family more than anything. Money shouldn't be in the way of family reunion. Of course you would say, why would the Chinese want to be smacked by a $500 head tax when they could just leave. The thing is, China wasn't a great place to be in from 1910 to 1950's... China faced 3 national wide wars and many political/economical restructuring. (You have the overthrown of the Qing Dynasty, followed by a invasion from Japan, war between the CPC and the Kung Ming Dang (Taiwan), and WW2... I believe Japan invaded China 2 times in history, in additions to the port treaties with England, US, France etc) If you were a Chinese at that time, would you pay up $500 to see your family again and take them away from a poticially unstable country at that time?

[Boss_Scorpius]

Wow, I wonder how much America would have to pay to African Americans for generation after generation of life-time free work and slavery they did......hmmm.....even at minimum wage that should add up to some interesting numbers.

[ronin893]

Nobody forced them to pay up? What? You think that as a Chinese you can then walk in? :lol:

First of all, this legislation was based on racist policies. Other immigrant groups at the time were INVITED over and GIVEN free land. If you don't call that unfair then I don't know what it can be called.
It was definitely racist. I didn't say it wasn't. That's why I said that an acknowledgement of wrongdoing was the bare minimum. An apology would be nice, but there would be legal implications. I also added that financial compensation is optional. I originally asked gman what more justice did he expect. So I ask you the same question: What justice do you want in addition to what was agreed upon yesterday?

And stop ranting about how tough it was for Chinese at the time. Everybody have it tough and sometimes life is unfair (look at Iraq, Sudan, or any other sh*thole places around the world today). I don't expect Canada to swing open the doors to allow everyone with a sob story to come in. Yes, I feel lucky. It was worth every penny of that $500. I make more than that in two days.

[ronin893]

This is totally overlooking the issue at hand. The Canadian Federal Government had a RESPONSIBILITY to treat foreign immigrants equally. They failed to meet that responsibilty by discriminating against Chinese Canadians because of the colour of their skin.

No legal framework that I can think of could possibly argue that when an organization (gov't in this case) fails to uphold basic human rights by discriminating based on race that victims of discrimination have no grounds for appeal because they knowingly endured that discrimination.
What the heck are you talking about? Human rights wasn't fashionable until after WW2.

[ronin893]

.... If you were a Chinese at that time, would you pay up $500 to see your family again and take them away from a poticially unstable country at that time?
Yes, I would have paid. Answer my question. What justice do you want in addition to what was agreed upon yesterday?

[guest10586]

This thread is funny. Its just like saying that the USA shouldn't pay back Canadians for softwood lumber. Maybe they shouldn't, it did happen in the past and they did pay of their own free will. :rolleyes:

[ronin893]

This thread is funny. Its just like saying that the USA shouldn't pay back Canadians for softwood lumber. Maybe they shouldn't, it did happen in the past and they did pay of their own free will. :rolleyes:
You're funny. Ever heard of NAFTA? Otherwise, Canada doesn't have a case.

[guest10586]

You're funny. Ever heard of NAFTA? Otherwise, Canada doesn't have a case.

You're saying rules and laws should apply. If the people who paid the headtax had none then why should you assume NAFTA is a legit? USA doesn't have to honor the agreement, they are a bigger and stronger force. Big deal if softwood was treated unfairly.

As far as I'm concerned Canadians of the past were some really racist jerks anyways.

[Truth]

It was definitely racist. I didn't say it wasn't. That's why I said that an acknowledgement of wrongdoing was the bare minimum. An apology would be nice, but there would be legal implications. I also added that financial compensation is optional. I originally asked gman what more justice did he expect. So I ask you the same question: What justice do you want in addition to what was agreed upon yesterday?

And stop ranting about how tough it was for Chinese at the time. Everybody have it tough and sometimes life is unfair (look at Iraq, Sudan, or any other sh*thole places around the world today). I don't expect Canada to swing open the doors to allow everyone with a sob story to come in. Yes, I feel lucky. It was worth every penny of that $500. I make more than that in two days.


it was tough not just for CHinese but many other Asians. And it was not like the European experience. whatever.

[poedua]

This is totally overlooking the issue at hand. The Canadian Federal Government had a RESPONSIBILITY to treat foreign immigrants equally. They failed to meet that responsibilty by discriminating against Chinese Canadians because of the colour of their skin.

No legal framework that I can think of could possibly argue that when an organization (gov't in this case) fails to uphold basic human rights by discriminating based on race that victims of discrimination have no grounds for appeal because they knowingly endured that discrimination. Especially when you consider the dire situation of Chinese immigrants at the time.

Overlooking Gov't responsibility and focussing on the "choice" of chinese immigrants is absurd. It's like someone offering you food to feed your family, in exchange for raping your first born child... then going to court and pleading not guilty to rape because you could have starved.

No one is overlooking the government's responsibility...we've all condemed their racist immigration policy...the head tax was part of the law back then -- and sick as it was, the Canadian goverment didn't deny it.

" It's like someone offering you food to feed your family, in exchange for raping your first born child... then going to court and pleading not guilty to rape because you could have starved '

A totally ridiiculous and immature analogy...this tax existed in various forms for 40 years or so.......fact is, the chinese made a choice to come to Canada notwithstanding the head tax.

The head tax was disgusting, but the WW2 concentration camps were just as bad - if not worse.

[poedua]

Yes, you would pay if you were told Canada is heaven and you would be rich to cover the 'cost' in no time and you believed that. Then, once you are here, you paid and the 'heaven' and 'be rich' part disappeared.

So the issue is the head tax AND that Canada ' lied '............ is that it ?

So, it's the 'lying' you want canada to apologise for - not the head tax ????

[ronin893]

You're saying rules and laws should apply. If the people who paid the headtax had none then why should you assume NAFTA is a legit? USA doesn't have to honor the agreement, they are a bigger and stronger force. Big deal if softwood was treated unfairly.
It has nothing to do with laws. The US signed NAFTA. What part of the concept of a contract do you not understand? Are you saying that people in Edmonton do not honour contracts? You're doing a great job portraying Edmontonians as a bunch of cowboy hicks.

[poedua]

Why did the Chinese came to Canada? read (http://collections.ic.gc.ca/generations/emigrants/railway.html)

They were promised by the government that they are allowed to stay as a citizen of Canada after the construction of the Railway. But when they finally managed to stay and want to bring their family to this wonderful country. They discover that they need to pay a head tax for their spouse and children.

If you understand anything about Chinese traditions, the Chinese people value family more than anything. Money shouldn't be in the way of family reunion. Of course you would say, why would the Chinese want to be smacked by a $500 head tax when they could just leave. The thing is, China wasn't a great place to be in from 1910 to 1950's... China faced 3 national wide wars and many political/economical restructuring. (You have the overthrown of the Qing Dynasty, followed by a invasion from Japan, war between the CPC and the Kung Ming Dang (Taiwan), and WW2... I believe Japan invaded China 2 times in history, in additions to the port treaties with England, US, France etc) If you were a Chinese at that time, would you pay up $500 to see your family again and take them away from a poticially unstable country at that time?

You do realize that the CPR Railway contractors found Chinese workers through Chinese companies that recruited them from China, Hong Kong and the United States ?

A New York contractor named Andrew Onderdonk was awarded the contract to build the railway through the mountainous terrain of BC. To meet a worker shortage Onderdonk began dealing with the Lian Chang Company to hire 2,000 workers from Hong Kong. In total, 15,700 Chinese were recruited though only 7000 worked directly on the CPR at any given time.


Now, do you reallly think this Hong Kong company had ' no clue ' the horrible conditions it was sending it's countrymen to in Canada ???

I doubt it...I suggest they misled them as much as anyone.

[gman]

So the issue is the head tax AND that Canada ' lied '............ is that it ?

So, it's the 'lying' you want canada to apologise for - not the head tax ????

Actually, I just pointed out what might happen for those who said "since there is a head tax, you should not come".

How should Canada handle it now? I don't know what the right approach should be. However, I do have strong disagreement with the current approach.

[UrbanPoet]

Being a Chinese person myself, I think they should not pay anything back at all, this will set a precedent, and there would be ramifications if other ethnic groups demand compensation from the government, how much are we supposed to pay?

That's part of the reason why the government will never explicitly "apologize" for these terrible things that they've done... they usually only just "acknowledge" the wrongdoing.

But I watched the news earlier today, it seems like there is more than one group seeking justice, and I think this might be why there's some opposition.

See you dont understand the struggles of our people brother. Your probably from the new wave so you have NO IDEA the struggles that early chinese immigrants had to go through. MY family are descenants of Chinese indentured workers from Trinidad that immigrated to Canada in the late 60s.

trust me.... the thigns that went on were currupt. IT makes me sad that even our own race doesnt recognize the things that early chinese canadian immigrants had to go through.

Most dont understand tho b/c 3rd and 4th generation Chinese are a very small portion of the chinese population in canada

[Truth]

See you dont understand the struggles of our people brother. Your probably from the new wave so you have NO IDEA the struggles that early chinese immigrants had to go through. MY family are descenants of Chinese indentured workers from Trinidad that immigrated to Canada in the late 60s.

trust me.... the thigns that went on were currupt. IT makes me sad that even our own race doesnt recognize the things that early chinese canadian immigrants had to go through.

Most dont understand tho b/c 3rd and 4th generation Chinese are a very small portion of the chinese population in canada


it doesn't matter if th majority do not understand, as long as the select few do our research and continue teaching our children, the Truth shall survive.

[Happy13178]

it doesn't matter if th majority do not understand, as long as the select few do our research and continue teaching our children, the Truth shall survive.

That's touching. But at the time, the head tax was legal...right up until 1967 when it was knocked down. Racist? Absolutely. Unfair? Definitely. Deserves an apology? You bet. But illegal? Nope. Not until the Charter of Rights and Freedoms was applied. You can't compare current political issues to this, because it's not the same thing, and you know it. Frankly, I don't see how the government can make anyone happy no matter what they do. You want the government to recognize it was wrong, they did it. They threw some money out to educate people as to why it was wrong and in hope it doesn't happen again. But the acknowledgment isn't enough, and the money isn't enough, and it was put to the wrong people, and blah, blah, blah. Honestly, if they didn't like the country or the taxes it imposed, they could have left. And if you don't like the way the government is trying to fix it now, when nobody in parliament was around when it happened in the first place, then you have the choice to leave too. That's freedom, baby. Take it or leave it.

[poedua]

That's touching. But at the time, the head tax was legal...right up until 1967 when it was knocked down. Racist? Absolutely. Unfair? Definitely. Deserves an apology? You bet. But illegal? Nope. Not until the Charter of Rights and Freedoms was applied. You can't compare current political issues to this, because it's not the same thing, and you know it. Frankly, I don't see how the government can make anyone happy no matter what they do. You want the government to recognize it was wrong, they did it. They threw some money out to educate people as to why it was wrong and in hope it doesn't happen again. But the acknowledgment isn't enough, and the money isn't enough, and it was put to the wrong people, and blah, blah, blah. Honestly, if they didn't like the country or the taxes it imposed, they could have left. And if you don't like the way the government is trying to fix it now, when nobody in parliament was around when it happened in the first place, then you have the choice to leave too. That's freedom, baby. Take it or leave it.

Once again...I agree.

( Seems you're the only one here who's got the ' reality ' of this issue in it's proper 'context' and perspective. )

[gman]

And if you don't like the way the government is trying to fix it now, when nobody in parliament was around when it happened in the first place, then you have the choice to leave too. That's freedom, baby. Take it or leave it.

Since you mentioned freedom, there is another choice. That is called protest.

[poedua]

it doesn't matter if th majority do not understand, as long as the select few do our research and continue teaching our children, the Truth shall survive.

What is it that the " majority do not understand " exactly ???

[d_jedi]

This is totally overlooking the issue at hand. The Canadian Federal Government had a RESPONSIBILITY to treat foreign immigrants equally. They failed to meet that responsibilty by discriminating against Chinese Canadians because of the colour of their skin.
What responsibility?
A legal one? Nope - back then, there was no human rights code or Charter of Rights..
A moral one? By today's standards, yes.. but at the time, that was a perfectly valid and moral decision - Canadian society at the time didn't really want Chinese immigrants, and the government complied by making it difficult and costly.

[poedua]

What responsibility?
A legal one? Nope - back then, there was no human rights code or Charter of Rights..
A moral one? By today's standards, yes.. but at the time, that was a perfectly valid and moral decision - Canadian society at the time didn't really want Chinese immigrants, and the government complied by making it difficult and costly.

Well said.

Canada has alreay gone on record that it must fess up and acknowledge past mistakes it made with rfepect to racial discrimination.......

http://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/multi/wcar/res/canada's-priorities_e.shtml

" Canada believes that acknowledging injustices in history — be it about the effects of colonialism and past treatment of indigenous peoples, of slavery, religious discrimination or other past injustices is essential to reconciliation.

Canada believes that in order to move forward, victims of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance should be afforded the opportunity to tell their stories, past and present. As members of the global community, we must listen and learn from them, and commit to a world agenda based on human rights.

We need to begin work immediately to build a present and a future free from racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance. We should focus on innovative, forward-looking, multi-dimensional, holistic and appropriate redress and remedies that will lead beyond reconciliation to enable and empower all women and men to participate fully and equally in society.

In Canada, we have taken a multi-faceted approach to the issues of remedies and redress and do not believe that granting financial compensation for historical action is appropriate. Canada has addressed historical actions through measures such as repealing legislation, establishing the Canadian Race Relations Foundation, formally acknowledging and regretting historical action in a Statement of Reconciliation, supporting activities such as the production of films, academic research and other means of commemoration, as well as developing policies that contribute to the beginning of institutional change. While we continue to address the past through such initiatives, we believe that government resources should be used to invest in the future, in the creation of a more equitable society now and a better future for generations to come."

The fact remains, if the policy of the head tax was set up and the Chinese immigrants were fully aware of the details before they applied and were willing to pay, then there's nothing to complain about.

And lets' face it, the head tax did not discourage Chinese immigration, and so the amount was increased to $100 in 1900, and to $500 in 1903 until the passage of the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1923 ( Between 1885 and 1903, over 39,000 Chinese paid the Head Tax to immigrate to Canada. )

I don't support the argument that financial reparations are needed in order to send a clear message that racism will not be tolerated in Canada and that an an apology without some sort of monetary commitment is somehow hollow and meaningless. Look at Canada today at the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and see if racism is tolerated ( compared to other countries ) in our laws - judge Canada on what she has done to correct those horrible mistakes of the past and what she stands for now- in terms of human rights and equalites -and going foward.

If Canada should pay for anything, it should be for funds and resources provided for the purpose of restoring and maintaining the Chinese heritage, culture and language and further education to ensure past mistakes are not repeated, so future generations of Chinese Canadians know the truth about Canadian history.

That's it.

[Truth]

What is it that the " majority do not understand " exactly ???


What we go through. All i see is non Asian people speaking for our experiences and history. I am tired of everyone else claiming how we have it easier or had it easier. I am tired of everyone else speaking for us. I am tired of people who don't read their history.

if an Asian person tells you his/her story and you silence them and deny them their experiences, there is no point in you even speaking to one of us cuz you already got us all figured out. Right???


anyways
The British Empire basically screwed us over even b4 any Asians "joined" Canada (as so many of you put it) by 1st introducing Opium from Afghanistan to particularly Chinese men as gifts.

The whole reason the British were trying to get the Chinese hooked on Opium was because this was their method of stealing tea from the Orient. Once the Chinese became hooked on Opium there became a demand for a product the Chinese could not get their hands upon except via the British colonizers and traders. The British powers said "okay people, the first time was free but now.... if you want Opium you must first provide us with your wonderful tea and we will gladly trade you our Opium for it. So as time went on Chinese society started to get messed up because of the new found drug. A band of Chinese rebels called "The White Lotus Society" started to fight against these British opium dealers and tried to stop the flow of the drug. However he British prevailed and eventually FORCED opium even more into mainstream Chinese society.

So when the Chinese came over to Canada to escape such hardships back in the mainland, they were met with disdain and suspicion from the White people in Canada and America. a lot of Whites were assuming the Chinese men were working for lower wages and would steal White man's jobs, the Whites also perceived all "Orientals" to be like savages and addicts who steal and lie to get by.

I will research this and the Opium wars even more and also find articles for you guys.

[Truth]

Contents | Feedback | Search | DRCNet Home Page | Join DRCNet

DRCNet Library | Schaffer Library | Historical Research

A Short History of the Opium Wars
From: Civilizations Past And Present

Book: Chapter 29: South And East Asia, 1815-1914

Author: Wallbank;Taylor;Bailkey;Jewsbury;Lewis;Hackett

Date: 1992

Excerpted from Bureau Development's CD-ROM



The Central Kingdom

At the end of the 1800s China's four million square miles held 450 million people, up from 200 million a century earlier. The ruling dynasty was the Ching, established by Manchus from Manchuria, who in 1644 had superseded the Ming. These descendants of the Tatars appreciated Chinese civilization and adopted a conciliatory attitude toward their subjects. They refused, however, to allow intermarriage with the Chinese, for they realized that only their blood difference kept them from being assimilated and conquered. By and large, however, the Manchus gradually became Chinese in their attitudes and habits.

The Manchu emperors were remarkably successful. The reign of Chien-lung (1736-1795) was a time of great expansion. The Manchus gained Turkestan, Burma, and Tibet. By the end of the eighteenth century Manchu power extended even into Nepal, and the territory under the Ching control was as extensive as under any previous dynasty.

. . . . . .

The Western Response

The foreigners were especially irritated by the high customs duties the Chinese forced them to pay and by the attempts of Chinese authorities to stop the growing import trade in opium. The drug had long been used to stop diarrhea, but in the seventeenth and eighteenth century people in all classes began to use it recreationally. Most opium came from Turkey or India, and in 1800 its import was forbidden by the imperial government. Despite this restriction, the opium trade continued to flourish. Privately owned vessels of many countries, including the United States, made huge profits from the growing number of Chinese addicts. The government in Peking noted that the foreigners seemed intent on dragging down the Chinese through the encouragement of opium addiction.

[See Opium Factory: The stacking room at an opium factory in Patna, India. Opium smuggling upset the balance of trade and destroyed China's economy.]

In the meantime, the empire faced other problems. The army became corrupt and the tax farmers defrauded the people. The central bureaucracy declined in efficiency, and the generally weak emperors were unable to meet the challenges of the time. The balance of trade turned against the Chinese in the 1830s, and the British decided to force the issue of increased trade rights. The point of conflict was the opium trade. By the late 1830s more than 30,000 chests, each of which held about 150 pounds of the extract, were being brought in annually by the various foreign powers. Some authorities assert that the trade in opium alone reversed China's formerly favorable balance of trade. In the spring of 1839 Chinese authorities at Canton confiscated and burned the opium. In response, the British occupied positions around Canton.

In the war that followed, the Chinese could not match the technological and tactical superiority of the British forces. In 1842 China agreed to the provisions of the Treaty of Nanking. Hong Kong was ceded to Great Britain, and other ports, including Canton, were opened to British residence and trade. It would be a mistake to view the conflict between the two countries simply as a matter of drug control; it was instead the acting out of deep cultural conflicts between east and west.

The French and Americans approached the Chinese after the Nanking Treaty's provisions became known, and in 1844 gained the same trading rights as the British. The advantages granted the three nations by the Chinese set a precedent that would dominate China's relations with the world for the next century. The "most favored nation" treatment came to be extended so far that China's right to rule in its own territory was limited. This began the period referred to by the Chinese as the time of unequal treaties - a time of unprecedented degradation for China. The humiliation the Central Kingdom suffered is still remembered and strongly affects important aspects of its foreign policy. Meanwhile, the opium trade continued to thrive.

The British and French again defeated China in a second opium war in 1856. By the terms of the Treaty of Tientsin (1858) the Chinese opened new ports to trading and allowed foreigners with passports to travel in the interior. Christians gained the right to spread their faith and hold property, thus opening up another means of western penetration. The United States and Russia gained the same privileges in separate treaties.

[poedua]

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DRCNet Library | Schaffer Library | Historical Research

A Short History of the Opium Wars
From: Civilizations Past And Present

.

Opium Wars ?

That began in the late 1830s' with Britian - that was over 175 years ago..........let it go ....move on !!!

AND what does that Opium War have to do with this debate on Canada / Head Tax..we weren't even a country till 1867 ???

[poedua]

What we go through. All i see is non Asian people speaking for our experiences and history. I am tired of everyone else claiming how we have it easier or had it easier. I am tired of everyone else speaking for us. I am tired of people who don't read their history.

if an Asian person tells you his/her story and you silence them and deny them their experiences, there is no point in you even speaking to one of us cuz you already got us all figured out. Right???


anyways
The British Empire basically screwed us over even b4 any Asians "joined" Canada (as so many of you put it) by 1st introducing Opium from Afghanistan to particularly Chinese men as gifts.

The whole reason the British were trying to get the Chinese hooked on Opium was because this was their method of stealing tea from the Orient. Once the Chinese became hooked on Opium there became a demand for a product the Chinese could not get their hands upon except via the British colonizers and traders. The British powers said "okay people, the first time was free but now.... if you want Opium you must first provide us with your wonderful tea and we will gladly trade you our Opium for it. So as time went on Chinese society started to get messed up because of the new found drug. A band of Chinese rebels called "The White Lotus Society" started to fight against these British opium dealers and tried to stop the flow of the drug. However he British prevailed and eventually FORCED opium even more into mainstream Chinese society.

So when the Chinese came over to Canada to escape such hardships back in the mainland, they were met with disdain and suspicion from the White people in Canada and America. a lot of Whites were assuming the Chinese men were working for lower wages and would steal White man's jobs, the Whites also perceived all "Orientals" to be like savages and addicts who steal and lie to get by.

I will research this and the Opium wars even more and also find articles for you guys.

But that was over a hundred years ago !!!

Chinese are fully embraced in all aspects of Candian culture....... as equals....none of that history applies today AT ALL...why do you insist on trying to relate the past to today when there is no relationship to the Chinese experience in Canada today ?

Study history...by all means...but keep it in perspective for crying out loud.

[guest10586]

It has nothing to do with laws. The US signed NAFTA. What part of the concept of a contract do you not understand? Are you saying that people in Edmonton do not honour contracts? You're doing a great job portraying Edmontonians as a bunch of cowboy hicks.

Its NG, I knew you would be back eventually...

And please, don't call yourself Asian. You're a self hating Asian and you insult us all.

The US can't sign anything, its a country and what you don't understand is that governments don't have to honor anything they do. Especially one with more power. How are you going to retaliate? That's right, now you know what it is to be someone who paid the headtax. If you think Canada will ever get the full 5 billion back you are a naive.

Since you've obviously so damn smart, tell me the clause in NAFTA where you have to repay old debts? Full of political and government BS as usual...how many times can a mom drop her kid on its head?

[guest10586]

Opium Wars ?

That began in the late 1830s' with Britian - that was over 175 years ago..........let it go ....move on !!!

AND what does that Opium War have to do with this debate on Canada / Head Tax..we weren't even a country till 1867 ???

If you ask me the English of the past, possibly not current English (they rewrote history to make themselfs good guys), insulted every race/culture.

The British fought with the French, enslaved black people, made Chinese people addicted to drugs, took over India, didn't like Jewish people for the most part. Hell, they couldn't even get along with the Scottish or Irish and they lived on the same island. :lol:

[poedua]

If you ask me the English of the past, possibly not current English (they rewrote history to make themselfs good guys), insulted every race/culture.

The British fought with the French, enslaved black people, made Chinese people addicted to drugs, took over India, didn't like Jewish people for the most part. Hell, they couldn't even get along with the Scottish or Irish and they lived on the same island. :lol:

You said it best.......it's in the past...that's not the British people of today........but,if you want to hate the British people who have already been dead for well over a hundred years AND/ OR you want to either hold the current british people / government accountable for the sins of their fathers or contnually wish to revist this chapter of their history to defame the British culture in general - go ahead ...frankly I don't see what this achieves or proves....but that's your business.

It'd be like the British of today hating the German people and government of today and constantly reminding them about Hitler trying to bomb London out of existence in WW 2 - the British don't hate the German people or their culture...the Germany of today had nothing to do with the sins of their fathers ( i.e Hitler , Nazis ) either.

I'd assume you also think future generations of Canasians wiull ultimnately have to answer for the many sins or errors of judgement the canadian gvovernemnt has or make today...again, that hardly seems fair IMO.

[guest10586]

You said it best.......it's in the past...that's not the British people of today........but,if you want to hate the British people who have already been dead for well over a hundred years AND/ OR you want to either hold the current british people / government accountable for the sins of their fathers or contnually wish to revist this chapter of their history to defame the British culture in general - go ahead ...frankly I don't see what this achieves or proves....but that's your business.

It'd be like the British of today hating the German people and government of today and constantly reminding them about Hitler trying to bomb London out of existence in WW 2 - the British don't hate the German people or their culture...the Germany of today had nothing to do with the sins of their fathers ( i.e Hitler , Nazis ) either.

I'd assume you also think future generations of Canasians wiull ultimnately have to answer for the many sins or errors of judgement the canadian gvovernemnt has or make today...again, that hardly seems fair IMO.

The problem with this head tax is that they can repay them. Assuming they had all proper documentation and the person who paid the head tax is still alive I think they should be paid. Of course the government can just wait until they die off...the government is good at wasting time and money.

Canasians? Canadian & asians? Man, there really are too many terms floating around... :|

The only thing really bad about the British now is that the generation now pretends like it never happened...the bad stuff anyways. They have basically rewrote history so that their people are semi-heroic.

[ronin893]

.... rest of asinine babble snipped ...

Since you've obviously so damn smart, tell me the clause in NAFTA where you have to repay old debts? Full of political and government BS as usual...
What old debts? Where? Shows how much you know if you think it is a debt.

I don't need a clause in NAFTA. There's a NAFTA panel that arbitrates.
http://w01.international.gc.ca/minpub/Publication.asp?publication_id=383409&language=E

[ronin893]

What we go through. All i see is non Asian people speaking for our experiences and history. I am tired of everyone else claiming how we have it easier or had it easier. I am tired of everyone else speaking for us.
Oh, how ironic. The very next post you quote an excerpt from a book written by...
Author: Wallbank;Taylor;Bailkey;Jewsbury;Lewis;Hackett I didn't know they were common Chinese family names.

[Truth]

I honestly don't think any amount of money can really do much to improve relations among people in society.

I believe that money would never mean anything if we do not teach our future generations how to respect one another, interact with each other, and truely learn about each others various cultures and at the same time figure out our own Canadian and individual indentitities.

Throwing someone a wad of cash wouldn't mean a thing if it is done just for political gains or to be politically correct.

I mean, a killer in court can offer an apology... but if it was written from someone else and he doesn't really mean it from his heart to the victim's family...

[blackhawk]

Money will just foster the culture of victimhood. Now its becoming hereditary.

You cant apply todays laws, culture, political structure against the same from generations ago.

Backdating law or cultural morals cant be done.

To build a life or a future you have to move on.

There's too many lawyers and not enough doctors being trained.

[guest10586]

What old debts? Where? Shows how much you know if you think it is a debt.

I don't need a clause in NAFTA. There's a NAFTA panel that arbitrates.
http://w01.international.gc.ca/minpub/Publication.asp?publication_id=383409&language=E

That says nothing about repayment. They don't have to give Canada jack.

[poedua]

The problem with this head tax is that they can repay them. Assuming they had all proper documentation and the person who paid the head tax is still alive I think they should be paid. Of course the government can just wait until they die off...the government is good at wasting time and money.

Canasians? Canadian & asians? Man, there really are too many terms floating around... :|

The only thing really bad about the British now is that the generation now pretends like it never happened...the bad stuff anyways. They have basically rewrote history so that their people are semi-heroic.

I don't. There's no reason whatsoever to repay it IMO....the immigrants paid it voluntarily....they came to Canada out of their own free will.

Nobody 'stole' the money from them - it was the law at the time .

They're owed an apology - nothing more IMO.

What British group insinuates it never happened and how do they go mabout it???...moreover...why would they even care so long after the fact ?

Re-wrote history - which part ?????? In what way...what are you referring to.

[gman]

As I said before, I don't have a strong opinion how to deal with the head tax issue. My beef is not how Chinese was treated in the history. My beef is how our government spending our money. My beef of this thing are:

1. Our Federal Liberal government is spending our money with little transparency of how it is spend. There is no plan and no guideline. They just give money away. This organization is not a crown company. It is not even a registered charity. Once, they got the money, the government will not have much say how it should be spend. They do not even have a government official to be board member in that organization. You can't even audit it easily.

2. It gives $12.5 million to a Chinese organization who does not represent the head tax decendences. This organization get the control of the money because they have no problem to sign Federal government's pre-condition.

3. the National Congress of Chinese Canadians claims how big they are in the Chinese community. However, until this comes out, not many Chinese (living here for decades) heard about it. It seems the organization is run by newer Chinese immigrants from mainland China. Its web site is using simpified chinese instead of traditional chinese.

4. The head taxed chinese decendence strongly opposed this. Hence, it does not resolve the issue but made it worse.

5. Why does Liberals do it now? I would say (a) transferring our money to a pro-liberal organization, (b) trying to buy vote indirectly.

6. Chinese is not the only ethnic group getting money. 7 ethinic groups will get $50 million in total. Again, why now?

7. Liberals is giving out money ($50 million) quietly. You heard about this only because head taxed chinese decendence are pissed. You don't hear much about the other 6 ethic groups are getting money. e.g. Italian also got $12 million. However, I don't know if the Italian group that got the money is also pro-liberal or not. THis is supposed a big deal and good for PR. Why did Liberal keep it so low profile? Why rush it out now?

[hot_potato]

As a Chinese Canadian myself, I feel that the government apology for past mistakes (of which the current government has no part of, aside from historical legacy) and the offer to create a fund to promote awareness of this past wrong is sufficient in addressing the head tax issue. It is inappropriate for current taxpayers to be held fiscally responsible for the immoral and unethical decision taken by a past government that has no real links to the present. We as a society have evolved and progressed a long way from the time when those decisions regarding the head tax were made. As such, while it may be morally correct for a sitting government to apologize for the wrongdoings of the past, to punish the current taxpayer for those past decisions made during the zeitgeist of another era is folly. Decisions made in the past should be taken into context during that time and should be relegated to the realm of history. Was it wrong? Yes, without a doubt it was wrong. But at the time, if you asked a typical Canadian of caucasian background if it was the right thing to do, they would answer yes. So in our case now, we should teach our children and make them aware of mistakes made in the past in a historical context. Now if only the Japanese government would take after the Canadian government.. that would also be very morally appropriate!

[guest10586]

I don't. There's no reason whatsoever to repay it IMO....the immigrants paid it voluntarily....they came to Canada out of their own free will.

Nobody 'stole' the money from them - it was the law at the time .

They're owed an apology - nothing more IMO.

What British group insinuates it never happened and how do they go mabout it???...moreover...why would they even care so long after the fact ?

Re-wrote history - which part ?????? In what way...what are you referring to.


WWI & WWII, the British role in the French Revolution....etc.

So if you are saying it was the law at that time then they don't even deserve an appology then? We can all use the law when it is suits our needs but doing the right thing in the end doesn't matter then?

You do have a point though, why volunteer? why help the community? why be proud to be Canadian? They are all here to screw you in the end anyways, all they want is your tax money.

[guest10586]

As I said before, I don't have a strong opinion how to deal with the head tax issue. My beef is not how Chinese was treated in the history. My beef is how our government spending our money. My beef of this thing are:

1. Our Federal Liberal government is spending our money with little transparency of how it is spend. There is no plan and no guideline. They just give money away. This organization is not a crown company. It is not even a registered charity. Once, they got the money, the government will not have much say how it should be spend. They do not even have a government official to be board member in that organization. You can't even audit it easily.

2. It gives $12.5 million to a Chinese organization who does not represent the head tax decendences. This organization get the control of the money because they have no problem to sign Federal government's pre-condition.

3. the National Congress of Chinese Canadians claims how big they are in the Chinese community. However, until this comes out, not many Chinese (living here for decades) heard about it. It seems the organization is run by newer Chinese immigrants from mainland China. Its web site is using simpified chinese instead of traditional chinese.

4. The head taxed chinese decendence strongly opposed this. Hence, it does not resolve the issue but made it worse.

5. Why does Liberals do it now? I would say (a) transferring our money to a pro-liberal organization, (b) trying to buy vote indirectly.

6. Chinese is not the only ethnic group getting money. 7 ethinic groups will get $50 million in total. Again, why now?

7. Liberals is giving out money ($50 million) quietly. You heard about this only because head taxed chinese decendence are pissed. You don't hear much about the other 6 ethic groups are getting money. e.g. Italian also got $12 million. However, I don't know if the Italian group that got the money is also pro-liberal or not. THis is supposed a big deal and good for PR. Why did Liberal keep it so low profile? Why rush it out now?

The illusion of creating a difference will help create a more positive attitude towards the Liberal government. On individual bases though, forget it. Martin is worse then the last PM, thinks everything can be solved with money...

[Happy13178]

Since you mentioned freedom, there is another choice. That is called protest.

Sure you can. Just don't expect anyone to do anything about it.

[Happy13178]

As I said before, I don't have a strong opinion how to deal with the head tax issue. My beef is not how Chinese was treated in the history. My beef is how our government spending our money. My beef of this thing are:

1. Our Federal Liberal government is spending our money with little transparency of how it is spend. There is no plan and no guideline. They just give money away. This organization is not a crown company. It is not even a registered charity. Once, they got the money, the government will not have much say how it should be spend. They do not even have a government official to be board member in that organization. You can't even audit it easily.

2. It gives $12.5 million to a Chinese organization who does not represent the head tax decendences. This organization get the control of the money because they have no problem to sign Federal government's pre-condition.

3. the National Congress of Chinese Canadians claims how big they are in the Chinese community. However, until this comes out, not many Chinese (living here for decades) heard about it. It seems the organization is run by newer Chinese immigrants from mainland China. Its web site is using simpified chinese instead of traditional chinese.

4. The head taxed chinese decendence strongly opposed this. Hence, it does not resolve the issue but made it worse.

5. Why does Liberals do it now? I would say (a) transferring our money to a pro-liberal organization, (b) trying to buy vote indirectly.

6. Chinese is not the only ethnic group getting money. 7 ethinic groups will get $50 million in total. Again, why now?

7. Liberals is giving out money ($50 million) quietly. You heard about this only because head taxed chinese decendence are pissed. You don't hear much about the other 6 ethic groups are getting money. e.g. Italian also got $12 million. However, I don't know if the Italian group that got the money is also pro-liberal or not. THis is supposed a big deal and good for PR. Why did Liberal keep it so low profile? Why rush it out now?

I'm not sure I understand what your point is....are you pissed at the fact that the liberals gave the money to a pro-liberal organization? Did you expect that they'd give it randomly to an organization in which they had no way of knowing how the money was spent? I can't really fault them for that, because I can see them taking fallout if they didn't. As adscam has mnade blatantly obvious, they have to account for the money they spend, whether they actually follow it or not.

Are you pissed at the timing? Well, why wouldn't they rush it out now? They're looking for issues they can throw solutions at before election time...that's not a liberal tactic, it's a government tactic. They all do it. If the head taxed Chinese opposed this because they wanted it on their terms, thats getting nitpicky, and if they wanted to wait for an apology and repayment terms that they chose they probably wouldn't get anything. Sucks, but true.

What do the other ethnic groups have to do with this? Who cares what the Italians/whoever got?

[Happy13178]

The only thing really bad about the British now is that the generation now pretends like it never happened...the bad stuff anyways. They have basically rewrote history so that their people are semi-heroic.

The British aren't the only nation to do that. I'm pretty sure every nation does it or has done it at some point, and plenty more will in the future.

[Happy13178]

WWI & WWII, the British role in the French Revolution....etc.

So if you are saying it was the law at that time then they don't even deserve an appology then? We can all use the law when it is suits our needs but doing the right thing in the end doesn't matter then?

You do have a point though, why volunteer? why help the community? why be proud to be Canadian? They are all here to screw you in the end anyways, all they want is your tax money.

Of course it deserves an apology. Not every wrong done in the past by various nations has been apologized for, but a lot have, and given time, I'm sure the rest will too.

[poedua]

WWI & WWII, the British role in the French Revolution....etc.

So if you are saying it was the law at that time then they don't even deserve an appology then? We can all use the law when it is suits our needs but doing the right thing in the end doesn't matter then?

You do have a point though, why volunteer? why help the community? why be proud to be Canadian? They are all here to screw you in the end anyways, all they want is your tax money.

Read my post, I said " they're owed an apology " so i agree with what you're advocating ...i.e " doing the right thing ".

As far as " screw you in the end ' - you're right .....you can make a very strong case for Canada doing this during the head tax years ...but so was the Hong Kong based based company ( the Lian Chang Company ) that preyed on these unfortunate Chinese by recruiting them and misleading them in the first place.

But as I've said before, the fact remains, if the policy of the head tax was set up and the Chinese immigrants were fully aware of the details before they applied and were willing to pay, then there's nothing more anyone should expect...but an apology...that's it.

[gman]

I'm not sure I understand what your point is....are you pissed at the fact that the liberals gave the money to a pro-liberal organization? Did you expect that they'd give it randomly to an organization in which they had no way of knowing how the money was spent? I can't really fault them for that, because I can see them taking fallout if they didn't. As adscam has mnade blatantly obvious, they have to account for the money they spend, whether they actually follow it or not.


1. They will not know how the money will be spent because they did not even provide a guide line. They basically say "I give you the money. You deal with it". Should our government operate that way?

2. You think they will be accountable. However, how do you know when there is no string attached? Usually, ethich group provides a proposal to the government for funding. That is the plan is established before the money is granted. This time, the money is granted, the amount is set (how do they get that number?) and then looks for a proposal.

What talking fallout? The government chose to ignore the groups (I think there are at least 2 groups) that represent head taxed chinese which tried that for over 20 years.
They select another group that has nothing to do with the issue until the government said, "please help me to deal with the issue". If the government says "I am going to give you money", what would you expect they will answer especially for the matter they don't exactly have an agenda for?


Are you pissed at the timing? Well, why wouldn't they rush it out now? They're looking for issues they can throw solutions at before election time...that's not a liberal tactic, it's a government tactic. They all do it. If the head taxed Chinese opposed this because they wanted it on their terms, thats getting nitpicky, and if they wanted to wait for an apology and repayment terms that they chose they probably wouldn't get anything. Sucks, but true.


As I said and again, I don't have an opinion how to deal with the head tax issue right. I only know the government is doing it wrong.

You see that they use tactic to buy vote and I agree, that kind of tactic is normal. However, I see that as they use this tactic to transfer government money to pro-liberal groups before the election. This is not normal. And the money can 'potentially' be used for the election. Does this look similiar to ad-gate? Have Martin learned from Gomery report yet?

If it is 'normal' tactic, Liberals will make sure there is enough PR and have a lot of media coverage. Make sure their intented target, the voter, knows. This time, they do it quietly. It does not look normal to me.


What do the other ethnic groups have to do with this? Who cares what the Italians/whoever got?

Depends on what your 'this' refers to. My 'this' is the government giving out money without knowing how it will be spent.


Back to using these money for educational purpose, I have no problem with the idea. To be honest, that should be done long time ago THEMSELVES.

Why does the government need to give money to ethic group for that? You don't need another groups to promote anti-racisit and history. Government can do that themselves and they should do that. If you give money to each ethic group, they probably will promote that within the ethic group. Should that be promoted to all Canadians? Should all the racist history consolidated together and promoted that to all Canadians (or the world) in one shot? What the government needs is the input from the ethic groups.

[gman]

Sure you can. Just don't expect anyone to do anything about it.
You will be surprised. The issue is now boiling in chinese community.

[masterhapposai]

liberals are at the end of their stick and have to buy everyone out

no surprise.

i almost support this. would you rather have conservatives run the country? you'll get taxed to hell, lose human rights, and gambling/porn/alcohol/anything entertainment will become illegal

[devious9191]

liberals are at the end of their stick and have to buy everyone out

no surprise.

i almost support this. would you rather have conservatives run the country? you'll get taxed to hell, lose human rights, and gambling/porn/alcohol/anything entertainment will become illegal

lol. Maybe you could list all of the other human rights you've lost when there have been right wing governments in Canada? Maybe you could list all the sin activities that have been made illegal by the same governments?

[poedua]

You will be surprised. The issue is now boiling in chinese community.

Why NOW all of sudden?? ...the tax ended in 1923 and the exclusion law was repealed in 1967.

[setell]

I agree with gman that what the government did was wrong, getting a group of non head tax advocates negotiating. What the government needs to do now is to correct that before they piss off all of the chinese community. I mean you can't just have a random group represent us.

I also think what the government is offering is a fair deal. How much compensation do the chinese community want for compensation? Isn't an apology and a small sum enough? My two cents on the compensation issue is to compensate all those people that were charged the head tax and is still alive by reimbursing them. Send them a cheque with a letter of apology. That isn't so expensive and then the rest can go towards a fund to help with chinese events like new years celebration, mid autum festival etc...

The problem I think is that a lot of the chinese people that are pissed isn't even part of the original generation that were charged the head tax. I'm not speaking for others but my uncle were charged the head tax and he paid it gladly. He left HK to make a better life here knowing full well the head tax and how racist Canadians were at the time. He felt that the head tax was a small sum to pay if he were going to have a better life here overall vs HK. We should just get a bunch of people that were charged the head tax and ask them what they feel is adequate compensation so that the rest of us can fight for it for them. They are the veterns and need to voice it out regarding what they want. We can't say what is the right compensation if we weren't the ones living at the time to know how things were like. Anyway that's some of my thoughts on this.

[gman]

Why NOW all of sudden?? ...the tax ended in 1923 and the exclusion law was repealed in 1967.

All of sudden of what?

If you refer to Canadian chinese fighting for head tax compensation, it has been fought in an organized fashion for over 20 years. Chinese community was not as big until 80s. Chinese was not considered to be important and their voice was not heard before that.

If you refer to the boiling part, they are upset about the government giving money to a group which does not represent the head taxed chinese. If the government did not do that or anything at all, the chinese community would not be as upset.

[devious9191]

I agree with gman that what the government did was wrong, getting a group of non head tax advocates negotiating. What the government needs to do now is to correct that before they piss off all of the chinese community. I mean you can't just have a random group represent us.

I also think what the government is offering is a fair deal. How much compensation do the chinese community want for compensation? Isn't an apology and a small sum enough? My two cents on the compensation issue is to compensate all those people that were charged the head tax and is still alive by reimbursing them. Send them a cheque with a letter of apology. That isn't so expensive and then the rest can go towards a fund to help with chinese events like new years celebration, mid autum festival etc...

The problem I think is that a lot of the chinese people that are pissed isn't even part of the original generation that were charged the head tax. I'm not speaking for others but my uncle were charged the head tax and he paid it gladly. He left HK to make a better life here knowing full well the head tax and how racist Canadians were at the time. He felt that the head tax was a small sum to pay if he were going to have a better life here overall vs HK. We should just get a bunch of people that were charged the head tax and ask them what they feel is adequate compensation so that the rest of us can fight for it for them. They are the veterns and need to voice it out regarding what they want. We can't say what is the right compensation if we weren't the ones living at the time to know how things were like. Anyway that's some of my thoughts on this.

Good post. I think it's important to keep in mind that although the head tax was designed to discourage chinese immigrants (except those that were wealthy enough to afford it), it was by no means illegal at the time, and those that paid it knew full well that that was the price of admission to Canada.

Personally, I don't see any problem with the amount of the head tax that was paid by this group of chinese immigrants to be reimbursed to them with the appropriate interest, to those immigrants that are still living. I don't see why this money should be paid to the descendents of the original immigrants if that person has already passed away.. and that's where I seem to be having a hard time stomaching the issue.

A letter of apology with a cheque to living chinese immigrants that paid the head tax, and just a letter to the descendents of those that have died seems reasonable enough.

[gman]

A letter of apology with a cheque to living chinese immigrants that paid the head tax, and just a letter to the descendents of those that have died seems reasonable enough.

If the government is willing to do just that, the decision will be much more acceptable and should be much cheaper.

Government set 2 pre-conditions: 1) no apology; 2) no compensation.

[poedua]

All of sudden of what?

If you refer to Canadian chinese fighting for head tax compensation, it has been fought in an organized fashion for over 20 years. Chinese community was not as big until 80s. Chinese was not considered to be important and their voice was not heard before that.

If you refer to the boiling part, they are upset about the government giving money to a group which does not represent the head taxed chinese. If the government did not do that or anything at all, the chinese community would not be as upset.

I meant the 'boiling' remark.

OK then, who DOES represent the head taxed chinese and how did this other group grab the spotlight and influence with the Canadian government?

[konfusion666]

I meant the 'boiling' remark.

OK then, who DOES represent the head taxed chinese and how did this other group grab the spotlight and influence with the Canadian government?


i dont think anyone can truly represent the "head taxed chinese"... they're all individuals, if 1 or 10 individuals from that group stand up and say "Hey they don't represent us" then the whole thing is a sham

[poedua]

i dont think anyone can truly represent the "head taxed chinese"... they're all individuals, if 1 or 10 individuals from that group stand up and say "Hey they don't represent us" then the whole thing is a sham

So why do Chinese / canadians have a problem then with the group that dealt with the Canadian Government ? I don't get it.

I assume there is a Canadian Chinese Association ( or something like that ) that speaks for Chinese Canadians at the national level ???

[gman]

So why do Chinese / canadians have a problem then with the group that dealt with the Canadian Government ? I don't get it.

I assume there is a Canadian Chinese Association ( or something like that ) that speaks for Chinese Canadians at the national level ???

No, there are many groups. As far as I know, there is no one group of Canadian Chinese can represent all Chinese. In the past, if the government wants to consult the community about ethnic chinese issue, the government consults with many groups. Of course, it all depends on the nature. For example, if it is about business, they talked to certain groups. If it is about welfare, they talked to other groups.

However, if we are talking about Head taxed chinese, there are at least 2 groups are representing them. These 2 groups have creditibility because the head taxed chinese and/or their decendence registered with them. I believe there are about 4000 registrations. They collected photocopy of the head taxed documentation of these head taxed chinese (dead or alive). Many of them registered to both group.

The group that is APPOINTED by the government had nothing to do with the issue until they are appointed.

1. they are new association comparing with the other two that had fought for over 20 years. I don't know how old this National Congress of Chinese Canadians (http://www.n-c-c-c.ca/) is but its web page uses simplified chinese. It can't be older than 10 years. Chinese Canadian National Council (http://www.ccnc.ca) is one of the 2 major players. It is established for 25 years. "The Ontario Coalition of Head Tax Payers and Families" is another one.
2. The head taxed chinese and their decendence did not approve they are represented by this group.

[poedua]

No, there are many groups. As far as I know, there is no one group of Canadian Chinese can represent all Chinese. In the past, if the government wants to consult the community about ethnic chinese issue, the government consults with many groups. Of course, it all depends on the nature. For example, if it is about business, they talked to certain groups. If it is about welfare, they talked to other groups.

However, if we are talking about Head taxed chinese, there are at least 2 groups are representing them. These 2 groups have creditibility because the head taxed chinese and/or their decendence registered with them. I believe there are about 4000 registrations. They collected photocopy of the head taxed documentation of these head taxed chinese (dead or alive). Many of them registered to both group.

The group that is APPOINTED by the government had nothing to do with the issue until they are appointed.

1. they are new association comparing with the other two that had fought for over 20 years. I don't know how old this National Congress of Chinese Canadians (http://www.n-c-c-c.ca/) is but its web page uses simplified chinese. It can't be older than 10 years. Chinese Canadian National Council (http://www.ccnc.ca) is one of the 2 major players. It is established for 25 years. "The Ontario Coalition of Head Tax Payers and Families" is another one.
2. The head taxed chinese and their decendence did not approve they are represented by this group.

Let's hope, at some point, the Chinese community is finally able to resolve this longstanding issue to their satisfaction ...hopefully, sooner rather than later.

[espeed]

The "Go somewhere else if you don't like the head tax" is an absolute load of crap.


Yeah I totally agree with you here. The statement reeks of racism. It's like saying utilities will cost your house $100,000 per year starting next year. If you don't want to pay it, then you can choose to stink and let your teeth rot.

And nobody really deserves to own Canadian land really, but the aboriginals. Some of the posters on this thread make it seem like British whites own the land; it was not owned by them originally but taken forcefully.

[poedua]

Yeah I totally agree with you here. The statement reeks of racism. It's like saying utilities will cost your house $100,000 per year starting next year. If you don't want to pay it, then you can choose to stink and let your teeth rot.

And nobody really deserves to own Canadian land really, but the aboriginals. Some of the posters on this thread make it seem like British whites own the land; it was not owned by them originally but taken forcefully.

Wrong. Read the thread.

That's an utterly stupid and uniniformed and naive house analogy.

No one ' forced' the Chinese or stole anything form the Chinese. The fact remains, the policy of the head tax was set up and the Chinese immigrants were fully aware of the details before they applied and were willing to pay, there's nothing more anyone should expect...but an apology ......at an absolute minimum.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[HammerJoe]

Hey, I am not chinese and I also had to pay a "head" tax to enter Canada!

I belive it is called landing fee or something like that.
I also had to pay to become true Canadian.

Can I get compensation and an apology too? :rolleyes:

[poedua]

Hey, I am not chinese and I also had to pay a "head" tax to enter Canada!

I belive it is called landing fee or something like that.
I also had to pay to become true Canadian.

Can I get compensation and an apology too? :rolleyes:

When it was imposed it applied to Chinese only - that's why it was a disgusting law and discriminatory and racist.

[sfu_lifer]

There is no payment. At least, no payment to the Chinese descendants. The money is paid to a Liberal appointed organization to "eduate" Canadian about the "history".
Oh now that's just BS. "Education" money. Uh-huh. More like a slush fund. Anyone wrongly interned during the war should be paid money. Heck they lost their land and other property not to mention their dignity and for most, hope.
The head tax was a shameful part of Canadian history. gov't should apologize, repay it (with interest) to the relatives and move on.

[robieG]

Oh now that's just BS. "Education" money. Uh-huh. More like a slush fund. Anyone wrongly interned during the war should be paid money. Heck they lost their land and other property not to mention their dignity and for most, hope.
The head tax was a shameful part of Canadian history. gov't should apologize, repay it (with interest) to the relatives and move on.

whats 5bills with interest and inflation taken into consideration? :lol:

being a descendant that still has that paper with the picture of my great grandfather on it, I really dont care about the money. Sure it would be nice to have a little extra cash but it would cheapen the apology. it was truly a shameful act.

[Happy13178]

Good post. I think it's important to keep in mind that although the head tax was designed to discourage chinese immigrants (except those that were wealthy enough to afford it), it was by no means illegal at the time, and those that paid it knew full well that that was the price of admission to Canada.

Personally, I don't see any problem with the amount of the head tax that was paid by this group of chinese immigrants to be reimbursed to them with the appropriate interest, to those immigrants that are still living. I don't see why this money should be paid to the descendents of the original immigrants if that person has already passed away.. and that's where I seem to be having a hard time stomaching the issue.

A letter of apology with a cheque to living chinese immigrants that paid the head tax, and just a letter to the descendents of those that have died seems reasonable enough.

It's a non issue for me, because other than the fact that my tax dollars are going into it, I don't see a problem with reimbursing the people who deserve it. But lets assume that the government would be willing to repay to descendants. Who decides which descendants get the money? Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that each person who paid a head tax had two kids, and each of them had two kids, and each of them had two kids. Since the head tax was implemented, three generations seems reasonable timewise. So which of all those kids gets the money? Think the government is going to waste time trying to figure out how to split the money between family members? And if it doesn't, then wouldn't you expect to see some lawsuits as some people would almost surely fight over who gets the money? It's easiest and most cost effective to do what the gov't has already done, even if you don't agree who it went to.

[Happy13178]

Oh now that's just BS. "Education" money. Uh-huh. More like a slush fund. Anyone wrongly interned during the war should be paid money. Heck they lost their land and other property not to mention their dignity and for most, hope.
The head tax was a shameful part of Canadian history. gov't should apologize, repay it (with interest) to the relatives and move on.

OK, why should the government repay it? Nobody in government right now had anything to do with any part of the head tax. You think taxpayers now should foot the bill for something that happened years ago, and was legal at the time? Turn it around, and lets say that it was another ethnic group it happened to, same situation. When you had nothing to do with the head tax in any way, shape or form, would you want to be forced to pay them? Why should you be forced to pay restitution for something you didn't do? The government did what they did because it was the best way to do it. They put some money into educating people about what happened, in hopes that it wouldn't happen again, and they acknowledged that it was wrong, which technically is also right for something no politician in office right now had anything to do with.

[IronMac]

No one ' forced' the Chinese or stole anything form the Chinese. The fact remains, the policy of the head tax was set up and the Chinese immigrants were fully aware of the details before they applied and were willing to pay, there's nothing more anyone should expect...but an apology ......at an absolute minimum.


Using your logic, any and all "inequitable" treaties with Native Americans should stand right?

As I've pointed out to you, just because you forced someone to do something does not make it right. Yes, you could argue that they had a "choice" but other immigrant groups were not imposed such a tax.

[IronMac]

OK, why should the government repay it? Nobody in government right now had anything to do with any part of the head tax. You think taxpayers now should foot the bill for something that happened years ago, and was legal at the time? Turn it around, and lets say that it was another ethnic group it happened to, same situation. When you had nothing to do with the head tax in any way, shape or form, would you want to be forced to pay them? Why should you be forced to pay restitution for something you didn't do? The government did what they did because it was the best way to do it. They put some money into educating people about what happened, in hopes that it wouldn't happen again, and they acknowledged that it was wrong, which technically is also right for something no politician in office right now had anything to do with.

I had nothing to do with the Hep-C victims...why should my tax money go towards them?

[Happy13178]

Using your logic, any and all "inequitable" treaties with Native Americans should stand right?

As I've pointed out to you, just because you forced someone to do something does not make it right. Yes, you could argue that they had a "choice" but other immigrant groups were not imposed such a tax.

The natives were a different situation entirely, and can't be compared. The government has been trying to pay them back for decades now, and I doubt it will ever be done. Again, what happened was wrong, but they weren't forced. Just because it was a bad choice doesn't mean it wasn't a choice.

[Happy13178]

I had nothing to do with the Hep-C victims...why should my tax money go towards them?

Trying to compare random situations with the head tax is just stupid. You can't impose a blanket solution on any and all situations, and it's actually better that way.

[IronMac]

The natives were a different situation entirely, and can't be compared. The government has been trying to pay them back for decades now, and I doubt it will ever be done.

Why can't it be compared? And why should my tax money go towards any sort of restitution to them?

[IronMac]

Trying to compare random situations with the head tax is just stupid.

You're the one who brought up the logic that if you weren't around at the scene of the crime then you should have nothing to do with it.

In fact, why should my tax money go towards supporting WWI veterans? Canada wasn't really Canada...no politicians from back then are alive now...and I had nothing to do with the conflict.

[Happy13178]

Why can't it be compared? And why should my tax money go towards any sort of restitution to them?

Because ultimately, this land belonged to the natives. This land never belonged to the Chinese, they were immigrants. You want a suitable comparison? Compare it to black slavery in the U-S. You think the American government would ever pay restitution to the families and descendants of slaves? That was a much worse situation than the Chinese had here, because they HAD no choice, bad or otherwise. Go find an American whose roots go back to slavery, and ask them if they would rather have paid a $500 tax and gotten an acre of land, or be forced to work for nothing, and have no freedom or liberty. Again, its not to say that what happened to Chinese immigrants was right, but they had a hell of a lot better time than the slaves did, and the slaves got nothing. And if you insist on comparing the head tax to the natives anyways, then why should the government use my tax dollars to pay any kind of restitution to the Head Tax victims, including the 12.5 million? They're paying for education, and I don't have issue with that.

[Happy13178]

You're the one who brought up the logic that if you weren't around at the scene of the crime then you should have nothing to do with it.

In fact, why should my tax money go towards supporting WWI veterans? Canada wasn't really Canada...no politicians from back then are alive now...and I had nothing to do with the conflict.

Canada has been Canada since 1867. If you don't want to support WW1 vets, then don't. The vast majority are gone now. But people who fought in WW1 weren't just fighting for their own countries, and anyone who has any knowledge of world history would know that. Even calling it a conflict is disrespectful. It was a war, and one the entire civilized world was involved in. I pay taxes for veteran support because we all still reap the benefits of what they did. And again, comparing people who died fighting for a country, against immigrants who were asked to pay a tax is foolish. And I'm talking about the head tax, not chinese rail workers either...there are memorials for them around the country as well.

[gman]

Because ultimately, this land belonged to the natives. This land never belonged to the Chinese, they were immigrants. You want a suitable comparison? Compare it to black slavery in the U-S. You think the American government would ever pay restitution to the families and descendants of slaves? That was a much worse situation than the Chinese had here, because they HAD no choice, bad or otherwise. Go find an American whose roots go back to slavery, and ask them if they would rather have paid a $500 tax and gotten an acre of land, or be forced to work for nothing, and have no freedom or liberty.

Again, its not to say that what happened to Chinese immigrants was right, but they had a hell of a lot better time than the slaves did, and the slaves got nothing.


Why should we compare with what US government would do? :confused:
If Canada does not want to do that, fine. Just because US government would not do that, it does not make Canada should follow the same 'logic'.


And if you insist on comparing the head tax to the natives anyways, then why should the government use my tax dollars to pay any kind of restitution to the Head Tax victims, including the 12.5 million? They're paying for education, and I don't have issue with that.

Again, why does the government use the 12.5 million to educate Canadian themselves and gather input from Canadian Chinese? Why should they give the money out to a non-relevant organization? Why should the majority of the money will be used to 'eduate' chinese (assuming they use it properly)? Should all Canadian be 'educated' since it was not Chinese who invented head tax?

BTW, I believe we do pay a lot of money to various compensation to native.

[Happy13178]

Why should we compare with what US government would do? :confused:
If Canada does not want to do that, fine. Just because US government would not do that, it does not make Canada should follow the same 'logic'.

Again, why does the government use the 12.5 million to educate Canadian themselves and gather input from Canadian Chinese? Why should they give the money out to a non-relevant organization? Why should the majority of the money will be used to 'eduate' chinese (assuming they use it properly)? Should all Canadian be 'educated' since it was not Chinese who invented head tax?

BTW, I believe we do pay a lot of money to various compensation to native.

Why should you compare what happened with the natives? It doesn't matter, because neither scenario applies, and that was my point. I'm not sure what you're saying in your second paragraph....I don't think the money is going to be used to educate any one group of people, but rather to educate everyone. I don't see the point of teaching Canadians of Chinese heritage about something they already know about, instead of Canadians who don't know anything about it. And again, the money went to the liberal group because they want to be able to control how it's spent. I would bet that they're concerned that if they gave the money to those who were "officially" recognized as representing head-taxed chinese, that they'd simply pay off the descendants...something the government has indicated it isn't willing to do. What don't you understand about this?

[gman]

Why should you compare what happened with the natives? It doesn't matter, because neither scenario applies, and that was my point. I'm not sure what you're saying in your second paragraph....I don't think the money is going to be used to educate any one group of people, but rather to educate everyone. I don't see the point of teaching Canadians of Chinese heritage about something they already know about, instead of Canadians who don't know anything about it. And again, the money went to the liberal group because they want to be able to control how it's spent. I would bet that they're concerned that if they gave the money to those who were "officially" recognized as representing head-taxed chinese, that they'd simply pay off the descendants...something the government has indicated it isn't willing to do. What don't you understand about this?

I was not the one who compare what happened with the natives.

If you have read what I wrote, I NEVER say the money should go to the groups that representing head-taxed chinese. I said the government should at least talk to them.

The question is why gives money to any chinese group at all. Can they just use the fund to do exactly the same thing (educate all Canadian; the intent you assumed) themselves?

Are you saying the government is not qualified to educate all Canadian? How does this particial chinese group more qualify to educate all Canadian?

1. Since this group gets the money and then decide how to spend it, they can do whatever they see fit. The logic is flaw to begin with and it does not matter which chinese group the money will be given to (pro-liberal or not) because giving the money out for that purpose (educate all Canadian; assuming that is the intent) without an established plan is not right. What don't you understand about this?

2. Giving tax money to a pro-liberal group and think liberals by default can control how it is spent is also wrong. First, it should be the government who should control how it is spend, not Liberals. If Liberals lose the election, should Liberals still control how it is spent? Second, what kind of mechanism is set up to make sure it is spent it right? There is no government offical in its board. It is not a registered charity. If you want a full audit, you can't do that without a court order assuming the group does not allow that willingly.

BTW, if the money is not for spending within a particular ethnic group of people, why does the government give money ($50 million in total) to 7 ethnic groups? What's the point?

[poedua]

Using your logic, any and all "inequitable" treaties with Native Americans should stand right?

As I've pointed out to you, just because you forced someone to do something does not make it right. Yes, you could argue that they had a "choice" but other immigrant groups were not imposed such a tax.

Here we go again....for the upmteenth time...I don't know why you don't get this....you're not exactly a ' quick study' are you ???

None of it was right...who on this thread is even suggesting it ?????

" other immigrant groups were not imposed such a tax "... I've called the immigration policy disgusting , discriminatory, shameful, wrong clear on that...so, NOTHING makes it right.....ever.

" you forced someone to do something " - quite right, like forcing Italian, Japanese, and German Canadian citizens into concentration camps against their will and stealing all their assets OR occupying a land like Canada, and forcing the lands of the aboriginals to be signed away with treaties AFTER the British and Fench had already colonized ( stole ) Canada on them - of which the Indians had no choice but to sign ( it was their land in the first place - where would would they go ? ). The aboriginal lands were occupied/ invaded / stolen by Europeans.

In the head tax case, Canada was telling the whole world we have a racist Chinese head tax. The Chinese looked at it, knew it was unfair ahead of time ( or didn't because of lies from the Lian Chang Company ) but still thought ...' I'm willing pay it ' - out of their own free will.

So you can ....' yes they had a choice....but' this.... and..... ' yes they had a choce ......but ' that ......but the fact remains, unlike those poor Canadian Japaense, Itlaian and German Canadians that were imprisoned by Canada in WW2 and the poor aboriginals who were invaded by Eurpepeans and forced into treaties under duress...the poor Chinese immigrants could have stayed home, gone to Austalia, gone to New Zealand or whatever....the advantage they had was...they had a choice to control their own destiny...and they made the choice.

[poedua]

You're the one who brought up the logic that if you weren't around at the scene of the crime then you should have nothing to do with it.

In fact, why should my tax money go towards supporting WWI veterans? Canada wasn't really Canada...no politicians from back then are alive now...and I had nothing to do with the conflict.

What a stupid, immature and naive analogy.

" why should my tax money go towards supporting WWI veterans " ...I'll tell you why , because 50,000 of them died fin WW1 for the freedom you now so ungratefully enjoy today !!

" I had nothing to do with the conflict " - guess what, neither did the Canadians in WW1 and WW2 who went to fight and die on other peoples land to save other peoples countries - they went ' unselfishly'

What a selfish, egocentric, heartless and arrogant attitude you have toward our veterans....no compassionate person would bring up such an analogy...even as a joke.( that's the most disgusting part .) ......tells me you seem more upset about people paying a tax than the 100,000 Canadians that gave their lives for someone like you....unbelievable

"Canada wasn't really Canada " ??????

What does THAT mean?????...explain yourself will you ????- are you a Canadian citizen ? did you not go to school ? can you be that ignorant about Canadian / World history ? Even an 8 year old knows Canada was a country in WW1 for crying out loud........unbelievable

[poedua]

Canada has been Canada since 1867. If you don't want to support WW1 vets, then don't. The vast majority are gone now. But people who fought in WW1 weren't just fighting for their own countries, and anyone who has any knowledge of world history would know that. Even calling it a conflict is disrespectful. It was a war, and one the entire civilized world was involved in. I pay taxes for veteran support because we all still reap the benefits of what they did. And again, comparing people who died fighting for a country, against immigrants who were asked to pay a tax is foolish. And I'm talking about the head tax, not chinese rail workers either...there are memorials for them around the country as well.

Well said.

[gman]

It's a non issue for me, because other than the fact that my tax dollars are going into it, I don't see a problem with reimbursing the people who deserve it. But lets assume that the government would be willing to repay to descendants. Who decides which descendants get the money? Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that each person who paid a head tax had two kids, and each of them had two kids, and each of them had two kids. Since the head tax was implemented, three generations seems reasonable timewise. So which of all those kids gets the money? Think the government is going to waste time trying to figure out how to split the money between family members? And if it doesn't, then wouldn't you expect to see some lawsuits as some people would almost surely fight over who gets the money? It's easiest and most cost effective to do what the gov't has already done, even if you don't agree who it went to.

It is not an issue at all.
Says, the government decides they do owe these people money. I do not say they should or will; just say somehow they want to do that.

If the person is alive, give him the money.
If the person is dead, the money goes to his estate. Whoever inherited his estate, get the money. If nobody is there, the money goes to a trust fund.

If somebody wants to fight for it, they can do that. They fight against each other. The government is not part of it.

You can just treat it as the government owes a person tax dollar and decide to refund that years later after his death.

[Truth]

On the Occasion of the 130th Anniversary of the Los Angeles Chinese Massacre:
A Statement of Remembrance
October 24, 2001 represents the 130th Anniversary of the infamous Chinese Massacre, which resulted in the murder of 19 Chinese men and boys in the first Los Angeles Chinatown. Some ten percent of the town's population of 5,000 participated in what might have been the City's first race riot, one that would regrettably be followed by others. Historically, this event was one of the worst occurrences of anti-Chinese violence in the United States during an era of virulent discrimination against the Chinese.
The incident was triggered by an internal dispute in the community between two Chinese men arguing over a Chinese girl, which led to the accidental slaying of a Caucasian man caught in the crossfire. The social conflagration that followed was fueled by the growing movement of anti-Chinese discrimination in California, which would climax in the passage of the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1882. At the base of the unrest was the uncertain and unstable economy in the West following the Civil War, leading to high unemployment, especially among veterans. This historical development led to a growing resentment of a growing group of industrious immigrants, many deliberately imported to build the transcontinental railroad, who undertook, at a minimal wage, jobs and tasks too menial, harsh, or difficult for settlers and citizens to care to take. Originally, the Chinese newcomers were welcomed. Then, this willing work force of differing cultures and religions was perceived by the body politic to be usurping jobs and resources intended for those deemed more worthy. The all-too-familiar attitude of growing resentment and discrimination set the stage for a day and a half eruption of rampant looting and burning, in a town already known for its lawlessness.

In defense of a great majority of good citizens, descendants of eyewitnesses are today bringing to light many stories about the protection of Chinese families by their forefathers-from neighborhood vendors to family servants. Others acted out of a sense of righteousness and of fair play.

This 1871 nadir of Chinese American history in Southern California also casts a light on the resilience and resourcefulness of immigrants as well as their earnest perseverance and optimism in quest of that better life that America can offer:


After the Massacre, few Chinese of Los Angeles left;

Chinese continued to operate their laundries in the City, with the industry peaking in the 1880's and yielding to the French, Italians and other Southern Europeans;

Chinese continued as farm hands and ranch hands, comprising over 50% of the work force at one time, helping to build the great Southern California citrus industry

Within five years, Chinese became the principal truck gardeners and vegetable vendors of Los Angeles, controlling over 90% of the industry for the next 25 years, later transitioning to Italian-, Japanese-, and Mexican-American growers and wholesalers;

Within 15 years, Chinese units were participating in the festive parades of Los Angeles
The growing integration of the Chinese into the region's economy was followed by a gradual acculturation, which fostered the development of settlement and family life: first in Old Chinatown, at today's El Pueblo de Los Angeles Historical Monument and Union Station, and later in the Chinese American neighborhoods of Southern California. Much of this progress took place under heavy pressure of discrimination, during a period of political and social isolation. But this evolution, with its increasing interdependence among all communities, took place nonetheless, demonstrating the major role Chinese Americans have played in establishing the rich diversity and proud heritage of Southern California.

Today's descendants of these Chinese American pioneers find themselves in all types of professions and businesses, in every neighborhood, at all social strata, and in all economic levels. Chinese Americans are now scientists and athletes, CEOs and teachers, artists and policemen, actors and producers, to name a few varied careers. Many have served America in its wars and other external conflicts, a proudly fulfilled responsibility of citizenship long denied the Chinese immigrant and once so difficult to achieve. In many households, the semi-annual ritual of voting in all government elections for officials and on questions of public policy is still viewed as a sacred duty, a verification of the privilege of citizenship. In many ways, the hopes of these first pioneers in achieving the American dream have been fulfilled by their posterity.

Looking back at the achievements, against all odds, of those Chinese immigrants who endured 1871, we proclaim that American history tells us that immigrants have always been valuable in developing and building our Southern California community and our American civilization. We further declare that immigrants will always bring new talents, and boundless energy, and that they will succeed even when given less-than-an-even-chance because they believe in America and the possible access to its opportunities. We observe that they and their descendants do acculturate in time, and moreover, they serve to shape the unique diversity of America.

On this 130th Anniversary, we further proclaim that the 1871 lesson of the Chinese Massacre holds truths for us today: that immigrants have proven to be a most valuable and important segment of our society. And because their influx insures a continued healthy, prosperous America, the process of immigration should and must continue. The opportunities America offers should never be closed to anyone residing in this country seeking to better themselves and their families.

The occurrence of the riot of 1871 was indeed a major hate crime in American history. It manifested the worst in human behavior and racial intolerance during an era of strong anti-Chinese sentiments. On the other hand, those who moved to aid and protect Chinese people during the occurrence, and the subsequent steady but measurable progress of the community's leadership toward healing and harmony over the years that have since followed were among the most noble of decent human reactions.

One can hardly avoid noticing the positive lessons from 1871 that also help us to cope with the recent tragedies of September 11, 2001. The combined events of that day now rank as the worst hate crimes ever perpetrated on American soil. Application of the moral principles, fundamental American ideals, and ready compassion that marked the collective reaction to both incidents, 130 years apart, were once again an affirmation of our American character. We realize that tolerance of others, compassionate understanding of their ways, customs, and beliefs, and the continual goal of community harmony are essential for furthering the progress and growth of our communities. Commitment to the practice of these ideas is a profound demonstration of the truth, vitality, and success of our American way of life.

Munson Kwok, Ph.D.
Board Member
Friends of the Chinese American Museum






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Last updated: November 1, 2001
Content is Copyright 2001 Chinese American Museum
Los Angeles, California, USA
All rights reserved.



[siriuskao]

So the issue is the head tax AND that Canada ' lied '............ is that it ?

So, it's the 'lying' you want canada to apologise for - not the head tax ????

well can they (Chinese immigrants) at least get their money back? yes they all paid at that time out of free will. Found out they were "over-charged" due to a incorrect/racist policy (white ppl didn't get charged) and they want $$$ back.

nothing wrong with that.

[poedua]

On the Occasion of the 130th Anniversary of the Los Angeles Chinese Massacre:
A Statement of Remembrance
October 24, 2001 represents the 130th Anniversary of the infamous Chinese Massacre, which resulted in the murder of 19 Chinese men and boys in the first Los Angeles Chinatown. Some ten percent of the town's population of 5,000 participated in what might have been the City's first race riot, one that would regrettably be followed by others. Historically, this event was one of the worst occurrences of anti-Chinese violence in the United States during an era of virulent discrimination against the Chinese.
The incident was triggered by an internal dispute in the community between two Chinese men arguing over a Chinese girl, which led to the accidental slaying of a Caucasian man caught in the crossfire. The social conflagration that followed was fueled by the growing movement of anti-Chinese discrimination in California, which would climax in the passage of the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1882. At the base of the unrest was the uncertain and unstable economy in the West following the Civil War, leading to high unemployment, especially among veterans. This historical development led to a growing resentment of a growing group of industrious immigrants, many deliberately imported to build the transcontinental railroad, who undertook, at a minimal wage, jobs and tasks too menial, harsh, or difficult for settlers and citizens to care to take. Originally, the Chinese newcomers were welcomed. Then, this willing work force of differing cultures and religions was perceived by the body politic to be usurping jobs and resources intended for those deemed more worthy. The all-too-familiar attitude of growing resentment and discrimination set the stage for a day and a half eruption of rampant looting and burning, in a town already known for its lawlessness.

In defense of a great majority of good citizens, descendants of eyewitnesses are today bringing to light many stories about the protection of Chinese families by their forefathers-from neighborhood vendors to family servants. Others acted out of a sense of righteousness and of fair play.

This 1871 nadir of Chinese American history in Southern California also casts a light on the resilience and resourcefulness of immigrants as well as their earnest perseverance and optimism in quest of that better life that America can offer:


After the Massacre, few Chinese of Los Angeles left;

Chinese continued to operate their laundries in the City, with the industry peaking in the 1880's and yielding to the French, Italians and other Southern Europeans;

Chinese continued as farm hands and ranch hands, comprising over 50% of the work force at one time, helping to build the great Southern California citrus industry

Within five years, Chinese became the principal truck gardeners and vegetable vendors of Los Angeles, controlling over 90% of the industry for the next 25 years, later transitioning to Italian-, Japanese-, and Mexican-American growers and wholesalers;

Within 15 years, Chinese units were participating in the festive parades of Los Angeles
The growing integration of the Chinese into the region's economy was followed by a gradual acculturation, which fostered the development of settlement and family life: first in Old Chinatown, at today's El Pueblo de Los Angeles Historical Monument and Union Station, and later in the Chinese American neighborhoods of Southern California. Much of this progress took place under heavy pressure of discrimination, during a period of political and social isolation. But this evolution, with its increasing interdependence among all communities, took place nonetheless, demonstrating the major role Chinese Americans have played in establishing the rich diversity and proud heritage of Southern California.

Today's descendants of these Chinese American pioneers find themselves in all types of professions and businesses, in every neighborhood, at all social strata, and in all economic levels. Chinese Americans are now scientists and athletes, CEOs and teachers, artists and policemen, actors and producers, to name a few varied careers. Many have served America in its wars and other external conflicts, a proudly fulfilled responsibility of citizenship long denied the Chinese immigrant and once so difficult to achieve. In many households, the semi-annual ritual of voting in all government elections for officials and on questions of public policy is still viewed as a sacred duty, a verification of the privilege of citizenship. In many ways, the hopes of these first pioneers in achieving the American dream have been fulfilled by their posterity.

Looking back at the achievements, against all odds, of those Chinese immigrants who endured 1871, we proclaim that American history tells us that immigrants have always been valuable in developing and building our Southern California community and our American civilization. We further declare that immigrants will always bring new talents, and boundless energy, and that they will succeed even when given less-than-an-even-chance because they believe in America and the possible access to its opportunities. We observe that they and their descendants do acculturate in time, and moreover, they serve to shape the unique diversity of America.

On this 130th Anniversary, we further proclaim that the 1871 lesson of the Chinese Massacre holds truths for us today: that immigrants have proven to be a most valuable and important segment of our society. And because their influx insures a continued healthy, prosperous America, the process of immigration should and must continue. The opportunities America offers should never be closed to anyone residing in this country seeking to better themselves and their families.

The occurrence of the riot of 1871 was indeed a major hate crime in American history. It manifested the worst in human behavior and racial intolerance during an era of strong anti-Chinese sentiments. On the other hand, those who moved to aid and protect Chinese people during the occurrence, and the subsequent steady but measurable progress of the community's leadership toward healing and harmony over the years that have since followed were among the most noble of decent human reactions.

One can hardly avoid noticing the positive lessons from 1871 that also help us to cope with the recent tragedies of September 11, 2001. The combined events of that day now rank as the worst hate crimes ever perpetrated on American soil. Application of the moral principles, fundamental American ideals, and ready compassion that marked the collective reaction to both incidents, 130 years apart, were once again an affirmation of our American character. We realize that tolerance of others, compassionate understanding of their ways, customs, and beliefs, and the continual goal of community harmony are essential for furthering the progress and growth of our communities. Commitment to the practice of these ideas is a profound demonstration of the truth, vitality, and success of our American way of life.

Munson Kwok, Ph.D.
Board Member
Friends of the Chinese American Museum






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Last updated: November 1, 2001
Content is Copyright 2001 Chinese American Museum
Los Angeles, California, USA
All rights reserved.



Nice try ..........off topic ( Canada ) .......and irrelevant to the current debate ........it you want to discuss the American ill - treatment of Chinese .......suggest you start a new thread.

[poedua]

well can they (Chinese immigrants) at least get their money back? yes they all paid at that time out of free will. Found out they were "over-charged" due to a incorrect/racist policy (white ppl didn't get charged) and they want $$$ back.

nothing wrong with that.

No need to pay anything to those who paid the head tax IMO. Here's why.

I don't support the argument that financial reparations are needed in order to send a clear message that racism will not be tolerated in Canada and that an an apology without some sort of monetary commitment is somehow hollow and meaningless. Look at Canada today at the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and see if racism is tolerated ( compared to other countries ) in our laws - judge Canada on what she has done to correct those horrible mistakes of the past and what she stands for now- in terms of human rights and equalites -and going foward.

If Canada should pay for anything, it should be for funds and resources provided for the purpose of restoring and maintaining the Chinese heritage, culture and language and further education to ensure past mistakes are not repeated, so future generations of Chinese Canadians know the truth about Canadian history.

[gman]

If Canada should pay for anything, it should be for funds and resources provided for the purpose of restoring and maintaining the Chinese heritage, culture and language and further education to ensure past mistakes are not repeated, so future generations of Chinese Canadians know the truth about Canadian history.

"Restoring and maintaining the Chinese heritage, culture and language" have absolutely nothing related to Head Taxed chinese issue. All these things were not damaged by the head tax. I don't mean these stuff should not be done but the funding should be from multi-culturism.

"further education to ensure past mistakes are not repeated" should be used to educate all Canadian. The past mistakes were not made by Chinese.

"so future generations of Chinese Canadians know the truth about Canadian history": all Canadian should know about the history and should not limit to Chinese.

[poedua]

"Restoring and maintaining the Chinese heritage, culture and language" have absolutely nothing related to Head Taxed chinese issue. All these things were not damaged by the head tax. I don't mean these stuff should not be done but the funding should be from multi-culturism. .

Hasn't the Chinese cultural growth and development and assimilation and heritage experience since the mid 1800's till now in Canada been underscored by a culture of racism and discrimination in Canada ???? Wasn't the head tax part of the Chinese / Canadian experience. There are a lot of Chinese posters on RFD that feel discriminated against in Canada even today I'm afraid.

""further education to ensure past mistakes are not repeated" should be used to educate all Canadian. The past mistakes were not made by Chinese..

Oh PLEASE, give me SOME credit will you ? It's the racist misakes the Canadian government made - not the Chinese - they're ( Chinese ) only mistake was being duped by the Lian Chang Company and everyone else ...these poor Chinese people were being screwed by everyone they got in contact with it seems.

"so future generations of Chinese Canadians know the truth about Canadian history": all Canadian should know about the history and should not limit to Chinese.

Agreed, but Chinese Canadians will have a vested interest in sustaining the memories of those injustices...most other candains have no clue, nor do they care what happened to anyone 55 years ago...let alone 150 years ago ( to Chinese )

[gman]

Hasn't the Chinese cultural growth and development and assimilation and heritage experience since the mid 1800's till now in Canada been underscored by a culture of racism and discrimination in Canada ????

Where do you get this idea? With injection of Chinese immigrants, I don't see Chinese culture and heritage are lose. Even if it is lose, it was not because of head tax. You need money from Heritage program instead of "head tax" program.


Wasn't the head tax part of the Chinese / Canadian experience. There are a lot of Chinese posters on RFD that feel discriminated against in Canada even today I'm afraid.

Yes, head tax is part of the Chinese / Canadian history. What they feel today has nothing to do with head tax. Again, if you want to improve that, the funding should be from anti-racist program.

Oh PLEASE, give me SOME credit will you ? It's the racist misakes the Canadian government made - not the Chinese - they're ( Chinese ) only mistake was being duped by the Lian Chang Company and everyone else ...these poor Chinese people were being screwed by everyone they got in contact with it seems.

EDIT: I take it back. I mis-read what you said here.

Agreed, but Chinese Canadians will have a vested interest in sustaining the memories of those injustices...most other candains have no clue, nor do they care what happened to anyone 55 years ago...let alone 150 years ago ( to Chinese )
Racism in Canadian was not limited to against Chinese. If a lesson should be learned, everything should be included. If Canadian government has no clues, they can obtain input from Chinese, Italian, Japanese, etc.

As I said before, the program should be in charged by the government and obtain input from different ethnic groups instead of giving them money to run their own program.

[Truth]

Nice try ..........off topic ( Canada ) .......and irrelevant to the current debate ........it you want to discuss the American ill - treatment of Chinese .......suggest you start a new thread.


dude relax, i just posted this cuz i found it interesting the Head Tax was also in effect in California. And what the hell do you mean nice try??? are you implying i have some sort of hidden agenda??? I am just posting some more knowledge related to this topic, even though it is not directly related, it is still relevant.

[Truth]

Where do you get this idea? With injection of Chinese immigrants, I don't see Chinese culture and heritage are lose. Even if it is lose, it was not because of head tax. You need money from Heritage program instead of "head tax" program.


Yes, head tax is part of the Chinese / Canadian history. What they feel today has nothing to do with head tax. Again, if you want to improve that, the funding should be from anti-racist program.

EDIT: I take it back. I mis-read what you said here.

Racism in Canadian was not limited to against Chinese. If a lesson should be learned, everything should be included. If Canadian government has no clues, they can obtain input from Chinese, Italian, Japanese, etc.

As I said before, the program should be in charged by the government and obtain input from different ethnic groups instead of giving them money to run their own program.

were the Italians attacked, had their businesses burned down to the ground, had the men and some young boys lynched by large mobs???

Show me the evidence and i'll reconsider my thoughts. Basically i believe that Blacks, Aboriginal, and Asians had it the roughest in North American society because we are so visible. Unlike Italians and Germans we cannot hide behind the one thing that makes them common with any Anglosaxon or French= They were of European/White pigmentation!!! Sure their Ethnicity was of a different stock but, all in all they still had the White skin!!!

A WHite guy going into a White establishment in the 50's probably wouldn't be stopped and asked "Are you German, Italian, or English?!" however put a Black man into a White owned business and they won't even ask him anything, they'd automatically pick up on his physical appearance and either kick him out, have him arrested and fined or beaten up!!!

For everyone in denial, stop denying!!! Yeah of course Italians and Germans had it rough for some time in Canadian history, but it is not the same as a "Chinaman, *****" or a "n1gger" as we are popularly known even today!!!

infact i believe it was tougher for Blacks, Asians and Natives!!!

I'm not here for popularity so you can all attack me because my knowledge and opinions are different. Thats the way i like it, to think outside the box.

[IronMac]

You want a suitable comparison? Compare it to black slavery in the U-S.

Black slavery was not government policy so it's not a suitable comparison.

[IronMac]

Here we go again....for the upmteenth time...I don't know why you don't get this....you're not exactly a ' quick study' are you ???

None of it was right...who on this thread is even suggesting it ?????

" other immigrant groups were not imposed such a tax "... I've called the immigration policy disgusting , discriminatory, shameful, wrong clear on that...so, NOTHING makes it right.....ever.

In the head tax case, Canada was telling the whole world we have a racist Chinese head tax. The Chinese looked at it, knew it was unfair ahead of time ( or didn't because of lies from the Lian Chang Company ) but still thought ...' I'm willing pay it ' - out of their own free will.

the poor Chinese immigrants could have stayed home, gone to Austalia, gone to New Zealand or whatever....the advantage they had was...they had a choice to control their own destiny...and they made the choice.

If you had bothered to read over the posts properly you would have realized that both Australia and New Zealand had their own Head Tax policies. If you want to debate about suitable places for the Chinese to emigrate to, as you earlier suggested, then let's go but be prepared for a whupping.

You know what? You're not disagreeing about whether or not the policy was wrong but you disagree over the degree of compensation. Why is that?

I mean, if you believe that the Chinese willingly made a choice to accede to a racist policy that was legally in place at the time then why should the government even bother issuing any sort of apology or monies?

[gman]

were the Italians attacked, had their businesses burned down to the ground, had the men and some young boys lynched by large mobs???

Show me the evidence and i'll reconsider my thoughts. Basically i believe that Blacks, Aboriginal, and Asians had it the roughest in North American society because we are so visible. Unlike Italians and Germans we cannot hide behind the one thing that makes them common with any Anglosaxon or French= They were of European/White pigmentation!!! Sure their Ethnicity was of a different stock but, all in all they still had the White skin!!!

A WHite guy going into a White establishment in the 50's probably wouldn't be stopped and asked "Are you German, Italian, or English?!" however put a Black man into a White owned business and they won't even ask him anything, they'd automatically pick up on his physical appearance and either kick him out, have him arrested and fined or beaten up!!!

For everyone in denial, stop denying!!! Yeah of course Italians and Germans had it rough for some time in Canadian history, but it is not the same as a "Chinaman, *****" or a "n1gger" as we are popularly known even today!!!

infact i believe it was tougher for Blacks, Asians and Natives!!!

I'm not here for popularity so you can all attack me because my knowledge and opinions are different. Thats the way i like it, to think outside the box.

First, I did not attack you. Not sure where you get that idea.

Second, why do you compare different level of racism? All are wrong.
So, says, Chinese was suffered 100 times more than Italian. It does not make racism against the other ethnic group irrelevent.

Third, you did not read my post within context. I said if the government giving out money for educational purpose, it may as well do everything in one shot themselves. That is to show Canadian all kind of racism Canada did in the history.

Forth, government already planned to give out money $50 million to 7 ethnic groups, Italian included.

Fifth, I don't know why you were upset on my post and I don't know what your thought was because my post was not addressed to you.

[IronMac]

What a stupid, immature and naive analogy.

" why should my tax money go towards supporting WWI veterans " ...I'll tell you why , because 50,000 of them died fin WW1 for the freedom you now so ungratefully enjoy today !!

" I had nothing to do with the conflict " - guess what, neither did the Canadians in WW1 and WW2 who went to fight and die on other peoples land to save other peoples countries - they went ' unselfishly'

What a selfish, egocentric, heartless and arrogant attitude you have toward our veterans....no compassionate person would bring up such an analogy...even as a joke.( that's the most disgusting part .) ......tells me you seem more upset about people paying a tax than the 100,000 Canadians that gave their lives for someone like you....unbelievable

"Canada wasn't really Canada " ??????

What does THAT mean?????...explain yourself will you ????- are you a Canadian citizen ? did you not go to school ? can you be that ignorant about Canadian / World history ? Even an 8 year old knows Canada was a country in WW1 for crying out loud........unbelievable

Why don't you look at the analogy before blowing your top.

[poedua]

were the Italians attacked, had their businesses burned down to the ground, had the men and some young boys lynched by large mobs???.

When did this happen in Canada ? By whom to whom ?

Back-up via ' link ' for Canadian examples? Some evidence ?

Basically i believe that Blacks, Aboriginal, and Asians had it the roughest in North American society because we are so visible. Sure their Ethnicity was of a different stock but, all in all they still had the White skin!!! ???.

You means U.S. don't you ..not North America ? If Canada too, based on what ? Any evidence at all re Canada?

Skin colour ? What skin colour are Jewish people ?

What about the Canadian ban of Jewish immigrants in the mid-20th century ( 1938 to 1948 ) , including the time a boat carrying more than 900 German Jews was turned away from a Canadian port in 1939.


For everyone in denial, stop denying!!! Yeah of course Italians and Germans had it rough for some time in Canadian history, but it is not the same as a "Chinaman, *****" or a "n1gger" as we are popularly known even today!!!
.

What evidence is there that the canadian public ( not the government ) ever openly discriminated against blacks or Chinese ? ...some examples of social injustices heaped on these specific groups by ordinary candians in the past century may help illustrate your point.

[Happy13178]

If you had bothered to read over the posts properly you would have realized that both Australia and New Zealand had their own Head Tax policies. If you want to debate about suitable places for the Chinese to emigrate to, as you earlier suggested, then let's go but be prepared for a whupping.

You know what? You're not disagreeing about whether or not the policy was wrong but you disagree over the degree of compensation. Why is that?

I mean, if you believe that the Chinese willingly made a choice to accede to a racist policy that was legally in place at the time then why should the government even bother issuing any sort of apology or monies?

Why should the Vatican apologize for the inquisition, the crusades, etc? Because it felt it had a responsibility to do so. But I don't see them offering compensation for it. I've seen lots of people whining that the government hadn't done anything about the head tax several times in here, and now that they have done something about it, nobody likes the way it's being done. From what some people are saying in here, it looks like they wanted the money more than the apology. Not all people, but some. Now, if you don't like that the government threw some money at an organization for this, join the organization and tell them what you want done with it. And I hate to tell you, but there are more places in the world other than China, Canada, Australia and New Zealand....it's a big world. There were other places to emigrate to. Nobody's arguing that the head tax was wrong, and nobody is saying they don't deserve an apology for it. But again, whether they liked it or not, they DID have a choice. Even with the head tax, they decided that it was better to come to Canada than stay in China. The government is apologizing for them having to pay for the better choice. That's all. And these discussions are moot anyways, because the decision has been made. The government isn't going to revisit the issue now.

[Happy13178]

were the Italians attacked, had their businesses burned down to the ground, had the men and some young boys lynched by large mobs???

Show me the evidence and i'll reconsider my thoughts. Basically i believe that Blacks, Aboriginal, and Asians had it the roughest in North American society because we are so visible. Unlike Italians and Germans we cannot hide behind the one thing that makes them common with any Anglosaxon or French= They were of European/White pigmentation!!! Sure their Ethnicity was of a different stock but, all in all they still had the White skin!!!

A WHite guy going into a White establishment in the 50's probably wouldn't be stopped and asked "Are you German, Italian, or English?!" however put a Black man into a White owned business and they won't even ask him anything, they'd automatically pick up on his physical appearance and either kick him out, have him arrested and fined or beaten up!!!

For everyone in denial, stop denying!!! Yeah of course Italians and Germans had it rough for some time in Canadian history, but it is not the same as a "Chinaman, *****" or a "n1gger" as we are popularly known even today!!!

infact i believe it was tougher for Blacks, Asians and Natives!!!

I'm not here for popularity so you can all attack me because my knowledge and opinions are different. Thats the way i like it, to think outside the box.

WAY outside the box. My buddy is sitting here reading this with me, and he's American, of African descent. His point of view, and I have to agree, is that while Chinese people suffered racism too, there's no way to compare it to what Blacks and Native North Americans went through. It's not even on the same scale.

[gman]

The government is apologizing for them having to pay for the better choice. That's all.

Not sure what you mean here. The government is NOT apologizing.

And these discussions are moot anyways, because the decision has been made. The government isn't going to revisit the issue now.
They may not want to revisit it just like they did not want to do that for 25 years. Somehow, they want to do that now because somebody was fighting for it.

The government can choose to ignore it (just like that 25 years) but the same group of people will continue to fight for it.

If it is moot, that 25 years was also moot. However, somehow, it got the attention.

[poedua]

Why don't you look at the analogy before blowing your top.

I did...I read it 3 times - in disbelief.

Why don't you smarten up by not dumping on our veterans - who died for YOU by the way - by making such a rude and disgusting analogy. It was in extremely poor taste...just days after Rememberance day too...great timimg....that shows a lot of class .

While you're at it...perhaps you should take a course in Canadian history - or ask some teacher today, or whoever it is that teaches history at your high school - it'll prevent you from making such ridiculous statements like .....


"Canada wasn't really Canada "


That one line alone ...tells me everything I need to know about your ignorance about what Canada was and is all about.

[ronin893]

It doesn't matter if it is just a few days after Rememberance Day. It is poor taste to dump on veterans on any day.

The issue here should be how the government reconciles with past injustices. We agree that the head tax was wrong and racist so there should not be much debate on this. I have no problem with the way it was handled at all -- public admission of discrimation (short of apology), small compensation (yes, $12.5 million is small) towards the community with no strings attached.

I partly agree with gman that the group representing the head-taxed should be included in the negotiations, but didn't they already have 20+ years negotiating? To me it seems that the government unilaterally decided the terms of the compensation after years of failed negotiations. I don't see a scandal. Furthermore, from the government's perspective, it is better that the money is dropped into a fund and its management passed on to the Chinese community. Why should the government be on the hook for micromanaging the fund with the potential for future scandals if the money is somehow misspent? If there is any fiscal mismanagement, the blame will fall squarely on the Chinese community. If they are truly concerned, the head-taxed should keep a vigil on whomever is managing the funds and participate in the decision making process. Otherwise, I think they are upset because they didn't get any money.

[gman]

I partly agree with gman that the group representing the head-taxed should be included in the negotiations, but didn't they already have 20+ years negotiating? To me it seems that the government unilaterally decided the terms of the compensation after years of failed negotiations. I don't see a scandal. Furthermore, from the government's perspective, it is better that the money is dropped into a fund and its management passed on to the Chinese community. Why should the government be on the hook for micromanaging the fund with the potential for future scandals if the money is somehow misspent? If there is any fiscal mismanagement, the blame will fall squarely on the Chinese community. If they are truly concerned, the head-taxed should keep a vigil on whomever is managing the funds and participate in the decision making process. Otherwise, I think they are upset because they didn't get any money.

What's the point giving out the money to an irrelvant organization? If the head taxed are not satisfied any bit, what's the point of doing anything? Why not just do nothing?

They fought for something and the government is not going to yield. That's fine. They can just keep on fighting for it. The government did something that is irrelevant to them and pretend it is is a slap on the face. It is putting salt to the wound.

As far as I know, other than Raymond Chan (Minister of State for Multiculturalism) and the National Congress of Chinese Canadians said something good about this arrangement, nobody in Chinese community (that is much bigger than just head taxed) goes for it. Every Chinese media (TV, radio, newspapers), talk shows, phone in are against it. Now, tell me what is the point doing that.

I guess Liberals wants to get points from the Chinese community. However, they did it wrong (doing nothing is even better that this) and back fired.

Somehow, I can see Raymond Chan will lose his MP seat in the coming election. He was supposed to be the spearhead to get compensation for the head taxed. Now, he is labelled as a traitor. He tried to sell this to the Chinese community but nobody bought that. His reputation is all time low now. Basically, almost every phone in are swearing at him.

In short, if Liberals wanted to make the head taxed feels better, they failed. They feel worse than before. If Liberals wanted to make general Chinese community happy, they also failed. They made a sort of non-issue becomes an issue. Or, a paper cut becomes an infection.

[Happy13178]

It doesn't matter if it is just a few days after Rememberance Day. It is poor taste to dump on veterans on any day.

The issue here should be how the government reconciles with past injustices. We agree that the head tax was wrong and racist so there should not be much debate on this. I have no problem with the way it was handled at all -- public admission of discrimation (short of apology), small compensation (yes, $12.5 million is small) towards the community with no strings attached.

I partly agree with gman that the group representing the head-taxed should be included in the negotiations, but didn't they already have 20+ years negotiating? To me it seems that the government unilaterally decided the terms of the compensation after years of failed negotiations. I don't see a scandal. Furthermore, from the government's perspective, it is better that the money is dropped into a fund and its management passed on to the Chinese community. Why should the government be on the hook for micromanaging the fund with the potential for future scandals if the money is somehow misspent? If there is any fiscal mismanagement, the blame will fall squarely on the Chinese community. If they are truly concerned, the head-taxed should keep a vigil on whomever is managing the funds and participate in the decision making process. Otherwise, I think they are upset because they didn't get any money.

Agreed.

[fuhreal]

All that will happen is this "foundation" will then go and put the 12.5 mil back into the government for a campaign for the next ellection named as an "investor".

Its just a clean way of money laundering. Thats all. Its too bad they have to make it such a humanitarian act, its actually quite disgusting on the part of the government.

[IronMac]

Why should the Vatican apologize for the inquisition, the crusades, etc? Because it felt it had a responsibility to do so. But I don't see them offering compensation for it.

Again, like Poedua, you're talking about degrees of compensation/apologies/etc. This is not taking into account the fact that it would be almost impossible to identify and compensate the victims. In Canada, that's not the case.


I've seen lots of people whining that the government hadn't done anything about the head tax several times in here, and now that they have done something about it, nobody likes the way it's being done.

Just like we see people in here who believe that more than enough is being done.


Now, if you don't like that the government threw some money at an organization for this, join the organization and tell them what you want done with it.

Can you actually join this organization? I thought it was government-appointed?

And I hate to tell you, but there are more places in the world other than China, Canada, Australia and New Zealand....it's a big world. There were other places to emigrate to. Nobody's arguing that the head tax was wrong, and nobody is saying they don't deserve an apology for it. But again, whether they liked it or not, they DID have a choice.

Yes, they had a choice but let's look beyond simply the tax of getting in for these men. What about the ones who were here already? In order for them to bring over wives/families they also had to pay a head tax for them.

Should the government be held accountable for a policy that broke up families? How many women and children were left behind because those men could not either afford to travel back to China or bring them over because of an imposed head tax. Other immigrant groups were not held back by such a barrier.

The government is apologizing for them having to pay for the better choice. That's all. And these discussions are moot anyways, because the decision has been made. The government isn't going to revisit the issue now.

Get real. If that was truly the case then we wouldn't be discussing this.

[IronMac]

What evidence is there that the canadian public ( not the government ) ever openly discriminated against blacks or Chinese ? ...some examples of social injustices heaped on these specific groups by ordinary candians in the past century may help illustrate your point.

Try here, page 14:

http://collections.ic.gc.ca/vancouver/pdf/goldenyears.pdf

[gman]

Can you actually join this organization? I thought it was government-appointed?

I guess you can but you won't be the decision maker though. As a side note, this organization is heavily mainland China connected. It has a lot of activities with different province of China, celebrate various mainland China offical activities, close connection to Chinese embassy, etc.

[gman]

All that will happen is this "foundation" will then go and put the 12.5 mil back into the government for a campaign for the next ellection named as an "investor".

Its just a clean way of money laundering. Thats all. Its too bad they have to make it such a humanitarian act, its actually quite disgusting on the part of the government.

I think they can do better than that. They can hire various Liberal promotor/organizer/campaign managers to be their project managers to research how to spend the money. They get pay from the organization (i.e. from that $12.5 million), spend 1 hour in the organization and 10 hours as "volunteers" of the Liberal election campaign.

[IronMac]

I did...I read it 3 times - in disbelief.

Why don't you smarten up by not dumping on our veterans - who died for YOU by the way - by making such a rude and disgusting analogy. It was in extremely poor taste...just days after Rememberance day too...great timimg....that shows a lot of class .

While you're at it...perhaps you should take a course in Canadian history - or ask some teacher today, or whoever it is that teaches history at your high school - it'll prevent you from making such ridiculous statements like .....


"Canada wasn't really Canada "


That one line alone ...tells me everything I need to know about your ignorance about what Canada was and is all about.


Poedua, you're beginning to show that you can't follow the logic or path of an argument. The analogy works within the narrow confines of what the poster had said. I was not dumping on veterans!

As for my comment that "Canada wasn't really Canada" I should have been more clear. Canada, at that time and as far as I'm concerned, was not really a true independent country. It was strongly part of the British Empire and it would have been unthinkable for it not to have participated in the Empire's wars. Remember, it was "For King and Empire" that the men joined up.

If you don't believe me, go argue with the Canadian War Museum:

http://www.warmuseum.ca/cwm/chrono/1914first_ww_e.html

Because Canada was not yet an independent international actor, Britain’s declaration of war was also binding on Canada.

As for my knowledge of history, I have a History degree from McGill with a major in conflict studies. Part of that included a major paper on the leadup to WWI for my German history class. :D

[Happy13178]

Again, like Poedua, you're talking about degrees of compensation/apologies/etc. This is not taking into account the fact that it would be almost impossible to identify and compensate the victims. In Canada, that's not the case.

Just like we see people in here who believe that more than enough is being done.

Can you actually join this organization? I thought it was government-appointed?

Yes, they had a choice but let's look beyond simply the tax of getting in for these men. What about the ones who were here already? In order for them to bring over wives/families they also had to pay a head tax for them.

Should the government be held accountable for a policy that broke up families? How many women and children were left behind because those men could not either afford to travel back to China or bring them over because of an imposed head tax. Other immigrant groups were not held back by such a barrier.

Get real. If that was truly the case then we wouldn't be discussing this.

You can discuss it until you're blue in the face, and it won't make a lick of difference. You'd be hard pressed to find a government that'd backtrack on a measure like this, for any reason, and if you REALLY think the liberals, conservatives, NDP, or even the bloc would ever deal with this issue again when they've acknowledged they're wrong and thrown some money at it, you're deluded.

Frankly, I'm tired of this discussion. It looks like you're painting Canada as the most racist country in the world, and you're arguing over a policy that's long been abolished. The government at this point is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

The current government acknowledges the tax was wrong, and that's not enough, you want an apology. Name a single member of parliament who was in power or even alive when the head tax was introduced? If those who were taxed want an apology, they can go find the politicians who put the policy into effect. This government didn't do it, and while they acknowledge that the government at the time was wrong, they don't need to apologize, because they're not to blame.

The current government put money towards educating Canadians about what happened, and that's not enough, you want money to go to the people who had to pay it in the first place. This is where things get messy. I understand the need for the 12.5 million to educate people about what happened, because "those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it." But I, my parents, their parents, didn't have anything to do with the tax being levied, so why should we pay to blindly give public money to an organization that isn't monitored by the government to ensure proper use? To the people who originally had to pay the tax, fine, they SHOULD get their money back WITH INTEREST. I can't see how this would be wrong. But to the descendants? Forget it. Unless they can prove that the head tax caused them personal damage, what did they do to deserve the money? This is why the government didn't pay out, because they would have been hammered for it for misuse of cash, and after adscam, they're being watched very carefully.

EVERY government is responsible for atrocities way beyond this one. It sucks that the head tax happened, and it sucks that some families were put in the position where they couldn't bring their families over, or go back themselves. But Canada's government isn't the only one at fault, is it? Why were people fleeing China?

Frankly, just about enough HAS been done on this. If some people who were themselves taxed still want to be personally compensated, then fine, they should get their money back, with interest. But beyond that, whether you want to believe it or not, this issue is finished. Just wait and see how much more is done on it.

[poedua]

Poedua, you're beginning to show that you can't follow the logic or path of an argument. The analogy works within the narrow confines of what the poster had said. I was not dumping on veterans!

Nice try.........but you did bring disrepute on our veterans...don't try and squirm away from the fact. By virtue of the fact you even thought to bring veterans in to this disucssuon on immigration laws.....it shows extrmeley poor judgment and, I would submit , the most glaring indication of anyone not being able to " follow the logic or path of an argument " as established by the OP.


As for my comment that "Canada wasn't really Canada" I should have been more clear. Canada, at that time and as far as I'm concerned, was not really a true independent country. !

" Canada wasn't really Canada"...... "should have been more clear" ? - my fault, perhaps it's only the writing style of a history major with excellent communution skills that fooled me.

Nonetheless, I did learn something. I didn't realize you could be part of the commonwealth / Empire yet " not really a true independent country "

if that's the case, you may want to fire off a letter to Ottawa.....sometime before our sesquicentennial in 2017 preferably - I think they may be planning a sesquicentennial celebration or 2 to celebrate our 150 years since confederation in 1867 - better set them straight before it's too late.



If you don't believe me, go argue with the Canadian War Museum:!

I have a BETTER idea...why don't YOU visit Vimy Ridge in France or talk to the the family of someone's relative who fought at Vimy and tell them their relative actually died for the Empire - not primarily for Canada...I'm sure they'll thank you profusely for also setting them straight as well. Now, if you DO get to France and Vimy..some things to keep in mind........


- The Canadian Memorial stands on Hill 145 -- the highest point of the 14-kilometre ridge, a vital strategic point that gave the Allies control and a view of the surrounding valley.

- The monument honours Canada's war dead from the First World War. The base walls of the monument have the names of 11,285 Canadians who were killed in France and whose bodies were never found.

- There are more than 7,000 Canadians buried in 30 different graveyards within a 15-kilometre radius of the monument. More than 66,000 Canadians died in the First World War. The monument stands on a 100-hectare site -- land given to Canada by France.

- the Vimy Memorial has 2 disitinct pylons as you know, Pylons, symbolizing the two forces Canadian and French Around these figures are the shields of Britain, [B]Canada and France.


Oh, forgot, one last thing........At the base of the Memorial, in English and in French, are these words:

To the valour of their countrymen in the Great War and in memory of their sixty thousand dead this monument is raised by the people of Canada.

Countrymen from the Canadian Corps ...not the Commomwealth Corp.


As for my knowledge of history, I have a History degree from McGill with a major in conflict studies. Part of that included a major paper on the leadup to WWI for my German history class. :D

See, I've got 2 kids in high school and one in there next year...I'm more familair with their writing style than anyone else's...so after reading all your posts...based on the experience with my own kids and how remarkably similar your style was to theirs - juvenile - I mistakenly assumed you were in high school - my mistake, you fooled me.

Alas, you graduated from McGill........ if that's the case, I'll make a point of suggesting to my kids that they not to apply to McGill for history

[poedua]

You can discuss it until you're blue in the face, and it won't make a lick of difference. You'd be hard pressed to find a government that'd backtrack on a measure like this, for any reason, and if you REALLY think the liberals, conservatives, NDP, or even the bloc would ever deal with this issue again when they've acknowledged they're wrong and thrown some money at it, you're deluded.

Frankly, I'm tired of this discussion. It looks like you're painting Canada as the most racist country in the world, and you're arguing over a policy that's long been abolished. The government at this point is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

They acknowledge they're wrong, that's not enough, you want an apology. Name a single member of parliament who was in power or even alive when the head tax was introduced? If those who were taxed want an apology, they can go find the politicians who put the policy into effect. This government didn't do it, and while they acknowledge that the government at the time was wrong, they don't need to apologize, because they're not to blame.

They put money towards educating Canadians about what happened, that's not enough, you want money to go to the people who had to pay it in the first place. This is where things get messy. I understand the need for the 12.5 million to educate people about what happened, because "those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it." But I, my parents, their parents, didn't have anything to do with the tax being levied, so why should we pay to blindly give public money to an organization that isn't monitored by the government to ensure proper use? To the people who originally had to pay the tax, fine, they should get their money back with interest. But to the descendants? Forget it. Unless they can prove that the head tax caused them personal damage, what did they do to deserve the money? This is why the government didn't pay out, because they would have been hammered for it.

EVERY government is responsible for atrocities way beyond this one. It sucks that the head tax happened, and it sucks that some families were put in the position where they couldn't bring their families over, or go back themselves. But Canada's government isn't the only one at fault, is it? Why were people fleeing China?

Frankly, just about enough HAS been done on this. If some people who were themselves taxed still want to be personally compensated, then fine, they should get their money back, with interest. But beyond that, whether you want to believe it or not, this issue is finished. Just wait and see how much more is done on it.

Wow..the voice of reason.

Very well said...I agree.

[Truth]

WAY outside the box. My buddy is sitting here reading this with me, and he's American, of African descent. His point of view, and I have to agree, is that while Chinese people suffered racism too, there's no way to compare it to what Blacks and Native North Americans went through. It's not even on the same scale.


I already posted a link in regards to Chinese in California. Asians were targeted physically many many times. Like Blacks they were also often lynched. I only present you the recorded incidents, not everything that happened to Asians were written down or acknowledged.

Another fact people don't know is that Europeans actually enslaved Asians like Malaysians, Filipino's and brought them to places like Mexico and Central America.

Asian people had it just as tough as Blacks, so don't you dare tell me what my people went through. Do not scapegoat us as the ones who have it easier. Right now i am too angry to even listen to what you have to say about us.

All i know is Africans and Asians and all other Ethnic coloured people need to unite and speak on each others issues and similar problems and history. We have been too long divided and conquered.

I am not here to debate whether Africans, Asians, or Natives have it better or worst compared to each other. I am here to point out the obvious fact is that all three of our groups and other Ethnic people in this world have suffered the same colonizational powers and abuse by various European groups in the past. And these colonial powers have influenced the way we view ourselves, the way we treat each other, the way we function even to this day!!!


I will forever take care of my Blasian daughter, i will forever be with my Black In Laws with due respect, and i will never deny the strong bond both my Asian family and Black family have established. End.

[Happy13178]

Asian people had it just as tough as Blacks, so don't you dare tell me what my people went through. Do not scapegoat us as the ones who have it easier. Right now i am too angry to even listen to what you have to say about us.

All i know is Africans and Asians and all other Ethnic coloured people need to unite and speak on each others issues and similar problems and history. We have been too long divided and conquered.

I am not here to debate whether Africans, Asians, or Natives have it better or worst compared to each other. I am here to point out the obvious fact is that all three of our groups and other Ethnic people in this world have suffered the same colonizational powers and abuse by various European groups in the past. And these colonial powers have influenced the way we view ourselves, the way we treat each other, the way we function even to this day!!!

I will forever take care of my Blasian daughter, i will forever be with my Black In Laws with due respect, and i will never deny the strong bond both my Asian family and Black family have established. End.

OK, you can back right the hell up.You WERE debating who had it worse, and whether or not certain groups had more or less of a right. If you didn't say it expressly, it was certainly implied.

I'm not scapegoating ANYONE here, and for you to say so is a blatant insult. I never said the head taxed people weren't victims, and I never said they deserved it, or that it was right. I was arguig for the fact that you didn't have any kind of respect for what HAD been done, and in the way it was accomplished.

In the process of you defending your oppression in colonization, you insulted veterans as well, and frankly accused the government of being racist, when in this case they went out of their way to do the exact opposite. If you're not capable of seeing the difference here, turn off your screen and go talk to your daughter (And I don't know why you put "blasian", because I could care less what your background is), because she's probably more well-informed than you are.

[gman]

I already posted a link in regards to Chinese in California. Asians were targeted physically many many times. Like Blacks they were also often lynched. I only present you the recorded incidents, not everything that happened to Asians were written down or acknowledged.
Who in this thread really care about what happen in California? Your long post is way out of context for this thread. We are talking about head tax in Canada.

If you want to talk about America or North America in general, you can create your own thread.

[poedua]

Who in this thread really care about what happen in California? Your long post is way out of context for this thread. We are talking about head tax in Canada.

If you want to talk about America or North America in general, you can create your own thread.

Well said gman...i agree 100 %.

[poedua]

OK, you can back right the hell up.You WERE debating who had it worse, and whether or not certain groups had more or less of a right. If you didn't say it expressly, it was certainly implied.

I'm not scapegoating ANYONE here, and for you to say so is a blatant insult. I never said the head taxed people weren't victims, and I never said they deserved it, or that it was right. I was arguig for the fact that you didn't have any kind of respect for what HAD been done, and in the way it was accomplished.

In the process of you defending your oppression in colonization, you insulted veterans as well, and frankly accused the government of being racist, when in this case they went out of their way to do the exact opposite. If you're not capable of seeing the difference here, turn off your screen and go talk to your daughter (And I don't know why you put "blasian", because I could care less what your background is), because she's probably more well-informed than you are.

Well said....ditto for the veteran reference above.

[Truth]

OK, you can back right the hell up.You WERE debating who had it worse, and whether or not certain groups had more or less of a right. If you didn't say it expressly, it was certainly implied.

I'm not scapegoating ANYONE here, and for you to say so is a blatant insult. I never said the head taxed people weren't victims, and I never said they deserved it, or that it was right. I was arguig for the fact that you didn't have any kind of respect for what HAD been done, and in the way it was accomplished.

In the process of you defending your oppression in colonization, you insulted veterans as well, and frankly accused the government of being racist, when in this case they went out of their way to do the exact opposite. If you're not capable of seeing the difference here, turn off your screen and go talk to your daughter (And I don't know why you put "blasian", because I could care less what your background is), because she's probably more well-informed than you are.

NO yOU back the **** up you ignorant piece of ****. I'm not going to back down because of your bully tactics. I never implied who has it worst. I did however mention that Asians, Blacks, Natives went through similar things by the hands of the colonizers. And had it tougher than the Italians, Germans, etc. I admit the Irish had it pretty tough in North America too.

So if you don't like it YOU back the **** up and turn your screen off. And my daughter is half Asian/Black, you got a problem with that??? And i don't give a flying ass crap if you don't care about her background, cuz i do and love her with all my heart. She will acknowledge her mix when she grows up and not be forced to choose a side between her two Ethnic makeups. Anyways.

WE can handle this like two adults and meet up and speak on our differences if you are willing to. I am not scared of you and am willing to put my life down for my honour, my peoples dignity, and my daughter's honour. it all depends on you my friend.

So if you want to insult me lets do this my friend. I do not fear you.
Just tell me
you are man enough to face me on your own and face to face with me. None of your supporters, non of your bs.

I don't know you you don't know me, but we can get to know each other whether the outcome is positive OR negative.


Peace and respect still. Its up to you friend/
So whats up???

[Truth]

I am one Vietnamese/Asian man you can never ever force your opinions on.

I am accustomed to this, you will not intimidate me. I am one Asian man you will not push around. Don't act like you don't know whats going on. I know whats going on, so why even bother implying its easier on Asians??? Just the fact you try to bully our peoples into thinking we have it easier is oppression in itself. i will not be scapegoated into feeling like i am part of some "model minority"

Obviously if you are not part of an Asian Ethnicity you have no right to speak for our experiences.

I am not in the conversation for popularity. if you guys don't like what i say well good, we are all entitled to our own opinions and knowledge.

However if you don't agree with me, you do not need to conspire to defend each others opinions just to make me feel lesser than you.
Because in the end any of us can be wrong. And right now in this situation i don't feel wrong since i am speaking from my own Asian experiences and knowledge.

"History is written by those who Conquer"

[poedua]

NO yOU back the **** up you ignorant piece of ****. I'm not going to back down because of your bully tactics. I never implied who has it worst. I did however mention that Asians, Blacks, Natives went through similar things by the hands of the colonizers. And had it tougher than the Italians, Germans, etc. I admit the Irish had it pretty tough in North America too.

So if you don't like it YOU back the **** up and turn your screen off. And my daughter is half Asian/Black, you got a problem with that??? And i don't give a flying ass crap if you don't care about her background, cuz i do and love her with all my heart. She will acknowledge her mix when she grows up and not be forced to choose a side between her two Ethnic makeups. Anyways.

WE can handle this like two adults and meet up and speak on our differences if you are willing to. I am not scared of you and am willing to put my life down for my honour, my peoples dignity, and my daughter's honour. it all depends on you my friend.

So if you want to insult me lets do this my friend. I do not fear you.
Just tell me
you are man enough to face me on your own and face to face with me. None of your supporters, non of your bs.

I don't know you you don't know me, but we can get to know each other whether the outcome is positive OR negative.


Peace and respect still. Its up to you friend/
So whats up???

What a hilarious ...and sad.......post !!!!

Smarten up and quit being childish by making veiled threats and insinuations of settling a score with Happy13178. Just stick to the logic and facts of the debate.

Simply address and refute and challenge each of Happy13178's points one by one like one would in a normal debate will you ?....... Happy13178 does it with your posts pretty easily ...why can't you? Do you think making statements like these help ?

" yOU back the **** up you ignorant piece of ****. "

" if you don't like it YOU back the **** up and turn your screen off "

" WE can handle this like two adults and meet up "

" I am not scared of you and am willing to put my life down for my honour,"

" I do not fear you. Just tell me you are man enough to face me on your own and face to face with me "

I mean really, is this tone and language constructive in ANY way??? It only makes you seem like you lost control and that Happy13178 has ' bested ' you in this debate and that you lack the ability to rationally discuss the points Happy13178 cited.


And while I got a chucke at your proclamation..."willing to put my life down for my honour"........ until we return to settling differences or alleged discrestions with a duel and ' pistols at dawn ' ........I suggest you take a page out of Happy13178's book and conminue the debate with some degree of civility ...we'll all be further ahead.

[Truth]

What a hilarious ...and sad.......post !!!!

Smarten up and quit being childish by making veiled threats and insinuations of settling a score with Happy13178. Just stick to the logic and facts of the debate.

Simply address and refute and challenge each of Happy13178's points one by one like one would in a normal debate will you ?....... Happy13178 does it with your posts pretty easily ...why can't you? Do you think making statements like these help ?

" yOU back the **** up you ignorant piece of ****. "

" if you don't like it YOU back the **** up and turn your screen off "

" WE can handle this like two adults and meet up "

" I am not scared of you and am willing to put my life down for my honour,"

" I do not fear you. Just tell me you are man enough to face me on your own and face to face with me "

I mean really, is this tone and language constructive in ANY way??? It only makes you seem like you lost control and that Happy13178 has ' bested ' you in this debate and that you lack the ability to rationally discuss the points Happy13178 cited.


And while I got a chucke at your proclamation..."willing to put my life down for my honour"........ until we return to settling differences or alleged discrestions with a duel and ' pistols at dawn ' ........I suggest you take a page out of Happy13178's book and conminue the debate with some degree of civility ...we'll all be further ahead.

maybe you are right. I always find it hard to express my thoughts and opinions with opposition. Do you take debate>>??? Can you teach me??? Because i honestly feel i had some valued points about this issue but, because i didn't jump the bandwagon and say what everyone else is saying i get attacked.

I know what i did above was aggressive and full of rage but, i feel Happy did not show me respect first. I am not here to blame or point fingers. I'll admit I reacted negative myself. No denying it.

[Happy13178]

NO yOU back the **** up you ignorant piece of ****. I'm not going to back down because of your bully tactics. I never implied who has it worst. I did however mention that Asians, Blacks, Natives went through similar things by the hands of the colonizers. And had it tougher than the Italians, Germans, etc. I admit the Irish had it pretty tough in North America too.

So if you don't like it YOU back the **** up and turn your screen off. And my daughter is half Asian/Black, you got a problem with that??? And i don't give a flying ass crap if you don't care about her background, cuz i do and love her with all my heart. She will acknowledge her mix when she grows up and not be forced to choose a side between her two Ethnic makeups. Anyways.

WE can handle this like two adults and meet up and speak on our differences if you are willing to. I am not scared of you and am willing to put my life down for my honour, my peoples dignity, and my daughter's honour. it all depends on you my friend.

So if you want to insult me lets do this my friend. I do not fear you.
Just tell me
you are man enough to face me on your own and face to face with me. None of your supporters, non of your bs.

I don't know you you don't know me, but we can get to know each other whether the outcome is positive OR negative.


Peace and respect still. Its up to you friend/
So whats up???

What's up is pretty much what poedua says. If you honestly think this is worth violence, and it looks like you're now threatening it, then you're deluded and not worth arguing with at all. Since you've now essentially threatened me, I've copied the contents of this thread, and unless I get an apology from you by the end of the day in this thread, I'll be forwarding it to the police and you can explain to them why you thought this was necessary.

You're the only one talking about your daughter, and what her background is...I have no interest in attacking her, and I don't see why you brought her up or how she's being raised in the first place. It's not relevant to the topic, and I'm not sure you even know what the topic is anymore. You've obviously taken this too personally, and as such, I'm not going to bother posting in this thread any longer....it should probably be locked too, since you're clearly not capable of debating it pragmatically.

And on a side note -- which I shouldn't have to mention at all, but given your clear instability I suppose I do -- if I ever meet you in person, or you try to make good on your threat of violence, I'll have you charged instantly with anything and everything I can think of. That said, I'll be waiting for your reply.

[Truth]

Happy, the only thing i apologize for is the way i addressed you. But i don't feel like i threatened you. I invited for you and i to meet and, i said i was prepared for the outcome regardless if it will be negative or positive.

I don't know where i threatened you. In fact i feel as if YOU threatened ME with aggression.

I don't mind meeting you and discussing this like to mature ADULTS. it is up to you whether you want to put anything into action.

If you want to spar with me i don't mind either. BUt threatening you??? no thats not my way.

I'm only being real and will never sugar coat anything. I don't see how i threatened you. If you DO take this to the police, that is your choice.

I will keep my opinions on this subject matter though, until someone can convince me other wise.

[Happy13178]

Happy, the only thing i apologize for is the way i addressed you. But i don't feel like i threatened you. I invited for you and i to meet and, i said i was prepared for the outcome regardless if it will be negative or positive.

I don't know where i threatened you. In fact i feel as if YOU threatened ME with aggression.

I don't mind meeting you and discussing this like to mature ADULTS. it is up to you whether you want to put anything into action.

If you want to spar with me i don't mind either. BUt threatening you??? no thats not my way.

I'm only being real and will never sugar coat anything. I don't see how i threatened you. If you DO take this to the police, that is your choice.

I will keep my opinions on this subject matter though, until someone can convince me other wise.

Telling me you want to meet face to face alone is pretty clear. Saying I'm bullying you, and that you're not scared to lay down your life? Please. You go through every one of my posts and tell me where I threatened you with aggression. Regardless, that's not an apology. You can explain it to the police. I'm done with this.

[Truth]

by the way Happy, did you take debate class or toastmasters??? YOu are good at debating, even though you are not always right.

You just present your case very good.

Man i'm hungry cuz i'm on a liquid diet, trying to lose 10 pounds in 2 weeks lol.

oops i'm rambling like a starving man!!! lol

[Truth]

Telling me you want to meet face to face alone is pretty clear. Saying I'm bullying you, and that you're not scared to lay down your life? Please. You go through every one of my posts and tell me where I threatened you with aggression. Regardless, that's not an apology. You can explain it to the police. I'm done with this.


Well I"M also expecting an apology too, cuz i feel like you attacked me first on the internet.

ANd whats wrong with two people meeting??? lol and when i said "lay down my life" i meant it in a metaphor.

YOu can tell whatever you want to the cops, but there is always two sides to a conflict.

Peace.

[Happy13178]

we'll see. reported. I'm still waiting for you to show me where I threatened you.

[Truth]

OK, you can back right the hell up.You WERE debating who had it worse, and whether or not certain groups had more or less of a right. If you didn't say it expressly, it was certainly implied.

I'm not scapegoating ANYONE here, and for you to say so is a blatant insult. I never said the head taxed people weren't victims, and I never said they deserved it, or that it was right. I was arguig for the fact that you didn't have any kind of respect for what HAD been done, and in the way it was accomplished.

In the process of you defending your oppression in colonization, you insulted veterans as well, and frankly accused the government of being racist, when in this case they went out of their way to do the exact opposite. If you're not capable of seeing the difference here, turn off your screen and go talk to your daughter (And I don't know why you put "blasian", because I could care less what your background is), because she's probably more well-informed than you are.

this is aggressive and disrespectful to me. if you don't agree with my views you could have approached me more respectful. I never insulted Veterans either. YOu told me to "Back the hell up" why??? why are you threatening me to back the hell up??? what did i do to you??? i was not even speaking to you to begin with.

[Happy13178]

You're lying, because you quoted me, and you think it'll get you out of trouble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy13178
WAY outside the box. My buddy is sitting here reading this with me, and he's American, of African descent. His point of view, and I have to agree, is that while Chinese people suffered racism too, there's no way to compare it to what Blacks and Native North Americans went through. It's not even on the same scale.




I already posted a link in regards to Chinese in California. Asians were targeted physically many many times. Like Blacks they were also often lynched. I only present you the recorded incidents, not everything that happened to Asians were written down or acknowledged.

Another fact people don't know is that Europeans actually enslaved Asians like Malaysians, Filipino's and brought them to places like Mexico and Central America.

Asian people had it just as tough as Blacks, so don't you dare tell me what my people went through. Do not scapegoat us as the ones who have it easier. Right now i am too angry to even listen to what you have to say about us.

All i know is Africans and Asians and all other Ethnic coloured people need to unite and speak on each others issues and similar problems and history. We have been too long divided and conquered.

I am not here to debate whether Africans, Asians, or Natives have it better or worst compared to each other. I am here to point out the obvious fact is that all three of our groups and other Ethnic people in this world have suffered the same colonizational powers and abuse by various European groups in the past. And these colonial powers have influenced the way we view ourselves, the way we treat each other, the way we function even to this day!!!


I will forever take care of my Blasian daughter, i will forever be with my Black In Laws with due respect, and i will never deny the strong bond both my Asian family and Black family have established. End.

[mingming]

You 2!! It's a FORUM!! Let it go!!!

[Truth]

You're lying, because you quoted me, and you think it'll get you out of trouble.


that is your opinion. I never threatened you. What i meant to say was "I'll lay down my life and honour if i am attacked by you IF we ever met" maybe i was too upset to elaborate this message when it was written. Obviously if we met and you ended up attacking me or whatever, i would defend myself!!! therefore i would lay down my life for my dignity and honour since you would have attacked me for no reason but for the simple fact my opinions on this topic are different from yours. I don't know you as a person so there is a good threat you may be a psycho and end up hurting me, so i'd do what it takes to defend my life!!!

YOu obviously interpreted what i said differently from my intentions with my message. That is YOUR issue.

I never threatened you. YOu may think i'm a liar. I'll admit i'm not perfect and make mistakes but, i believe that i am speaking the truth.

It really upset me though , that you demand an apology from ME when you came harsh on me first with your original response to my original post.

Are you superior to ME that you demand an apology to ME when are not man enough to offer an apology to me???

I am willing to let this go but, seems like you want to be escalating...

[gman]

Furthermore, from the government's perspective, it is better that the money is dropped into a fund and its management passed on to the Chinese community. Why should the government be on the hook for micromanaging the fund with the potential for future scandals if the money is somehow misspent? If there is any fiscal mismanagement, the blame will fall squarely on the Chinese community. If they are truly concerned, the head-taxed should keep a vigil on whomever is managing the funds and participate in the decision making process. Otherwise, I think they are upset because they didn't get any money.

Some more clarifications (if somebody still care about the original topic):

1. The government passed a fund and its management to ONE chinese organization. Not Chinese community. That organization does not have the form or shape representing the Chinese community or Head Taxed.

2. I know if something goes wrong with the fund, the public will indeed blame squarely on the Chinese community. However, it is wrong. The public should blame that organization and the one who hand picked them in closed door.

3. The head-taxed will sure watch how the fund will be spent in any possible mean. However, the mean is limited and they don't have any power to audit them.

4. The head taxed are not included in the decision making process. The organization will ask the "public" to provide proposal. The head taxed will be weight as equal as a normal Joe. Just like Raymond Chan consulted them and decision is made somewhere else. The result is not in any form or shape requested by the head taxed.

[Truth]

To everyone else on this forum and this those who have posted on this topic, i'm sorry for contributing in getting off topic.

This was a good subject too, though the Head Tax issue at times feels kind of cliche to me...
since it keeps coming up time after time when no actual action is truely ever done to address this issue. Just a lot of suggestions and opinions.

Well once again i apologize to the rest of you guys/gals on here for contributing in taking this post off topic...

peace and apology to MingMing, you are being sensible on this conflict and trying to help us resolve it. also an apology to Poedua and Gman cuz you guys seem sensible in taking the topic back to its original intent. sorry, thanks.

anyone else in specific i need to apologize to??? nope... thats it peace

[Happy13178]

Great. I'm going in to give my statement tomorrow morning.

[canadiantofu]

MEEEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWW

When did AOL start putting their CDs in packages of Meow Mix?

[gman]

MEEEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWW

When did AOL start putting their CDs in packages of Meow Mix?

Sigh! I thought Truth was off topic. :confused: :rolleyes:

[poedua]

To everyone else on this forum and this those who have posted on this topic, i'm sorry for contributing in getting off topic.

This was a good subject too, though the Head Tax issue at times feels kind of cliche to me...
since it keeps coming up time after time when no actual action is truely ever done to address this issue. Just a lot of suggestions and opinions.

Well once again i apologize to the rest of you guys/gals on here for contributing in taking this post off topic...

peace and apology to MingMing, you are being sensible on this conflict and trying to help us resolve it. also an apology to Poedua and Gman cuz you guys seem sensible in taking the topic back to its original intent. sorry, thanks.

anyone else in specific i need to apologize to??? nope... thats it peace

You don't owe me an apology.

Frankly, you owe an apology to Happy13178.... more than anyone else.

To apologise to him and admit to you made in an error in judgement in your emotional remarks to him is a sign of maturity and class and will earn you more respect from other RFDers than anything else.

We've all made the same mistake that you have, letting our emotions get the best of ourselves and saying things in our posts that we shouldn't have - veteran wel respected RFDers will admit mistakes ( of fact or otherwise ) , apologise and simply move on - happens all the time.

With all due respect Truth, if you really think I am " sensible in taking the topic back to its original intent ", then take my advice ..that is ...for you to apologise to Happy13178, learn from it and get back to the debate.

[ronin893]

Some more clarifications (if somebody still care about the original topic):

1. The government passed a fund and its management to ONE chinese organization. Not Chinese community. That organization does not have the form or shape representing the Chinese community or Head Taxed.

2. I know if something goes wrong with the fund, the public will indeed blame squarely on the Chinese community. However, it is wrong. The public should blame that organization and the one who hand picked them in closed door.

3. The head-taxed will sure watch how the fund will be spent in any possible mean. However, the mean is limited and they don't have any power to audit them.

4. The head taxed are not included in the decision making process. The organization will ask the "public" to provide proposal. The head taxed will be weight as equal as a normal Joe. Just like Raymond Chan consulted them and decision is made somewhere else. The result is not in any form or shape requested by the head taxed.
Fair enough. But from the government's view and the Canadian public at large, the Chinese community needs to represented by a group (like the way the Canadian Jewish Congress represents the Jewish) which might as well be the National Congress of Chinese Canadians. The Ontario Coalition of Head Tax Payers and Families is a regional group so they are an unlikely choice. The Chinese Canadian National Council was formed as a protest group so that's probably why they were bypassed. Did the Liberals make a mistake by choosing the NCCC at the representative group? Perhaps. Anybody who is outraged at the funds being handled by the NCCC should keep a close eye on the NCCC. More power to them! Is it scandalous? Hardly. The NCCC will probably become the more dominant group in ten years. That's probably why they were chosen.

[mingming]

To Truth,

.. as Russel Peters will say...

"bEEE a MAAAnn, DOO de wiGHT FinGGG!!!"

[poedua]

To Truth,

.. as Russel Peters will say...

"bEEE a MAAAnn, DOO de wiGHT FinGGG!!!"

Agree...it takes a man to apologise and admit when he's wrong.....let's Hope Truth has what it takes to ' do the right thing ' and apologise to Happy13178

[Danilow Candy]

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/11/17/head-tax051117.html

While there is a group that feels that the payouts aren't enough, and the douchebag Canadian Taxpayers Federation that is against payouts in general, Canada FINALLY officially acknowledges what it did to thousands of Chinese immigrants in the 19th and 20th century and admits that it did something wrong.

I actually have a friend who is a descendant of the original group, so at least he might get something.

Still, it's about time... it's like every single other ethnic group got something except the Chinese. Yeesh.

You know I sympathize with the topic. It was an injustice by a bunch of WASP homosexuals that controlled this country at the time, but do you really think that the current tax payers should have to compensate your ethnic community above and beyond the tax they paid? If I have to pay one more dollar to this pathetic dumbass of a government I'm going to be very angry.

[Truth]

MEEEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWW

When did AOL start putting their CDs in packages of Meow Mix?


lol now even "I"M" lost lol. By the way what is Meow Mix??? is that some kind of tasty drink???

[Truth]

Agree...it takes a man to apologise and admit when he's wrong.....let's Hope Truth has what it takes to ' do the right thing ' and apologise to Happy13178


You are right it DOEs take a man to admit he is wrong.

BUt i believe it takes an even Better man to not fall into peer pressure and not be forced to apologize for something i feel he did not do wrong. Why should i feel guilty for something i didn't do???

And you are not supposed to blackmail someone by threatening to call the Police if they do not apologize!!! What kind of crap is that??? Happy's actions are his actions. he has any right to do what he wants with his life, but he can't FORCE me to do anything. The way he approached me by DEMANDING an apology or he would do blah blah blah to me is his problem.

put yourselves into my shoes and position just for a second.
Once again
i stand my ground and tell you i'm not in this for any of your sympathy, neither am i in this for popularity. I simply am here defending myself.

[poedua]

You are right it DOEs take a man to admit he is wrong.

BUt i believe it takes an even Better man to not fall into peer pressure and not be forced to apologize for something i feel he did not do wrong. Why should i feel guilty for something i didn't do???

And you are not supposed to blackmail someone by threatening to call the Police if they do not apologize!!! What kind of crap is that??? Happy's actions are his actions. he has any right to do what he wants with his life, but he can't FORCE me to do anything. The way he approached me by DEMANDING an apology or he would do blah blah blah to me is his problem.

put yourselves into my shoes and position just for a second.
Once again
i stand my ground and tell you i'm not in this for any of your sympathy, neither am i in this for popularity. I simply am here defending myself.

You're wrong.

If I was at the receiving end of your remarks , I would DEMAND an apology too. Happy's DEMANDS were provoked by our inflammatory comments - I've demanded apologies from other RFDers before elsewhere on other threads / forums - and got them - THOSE are RFDers I respect.

So, I HAVE been in your shoes .....both giving and receiving apologies.

Put your bravado and pride aside.... just because someone DEMANDED something from you .....and do the mature thing, apologise and move on - you made a mistake - admit it like a man.

[IronMac]

You can discuss it until you're blue in the face, and it won't make a lick of difference. You'd be hard pressed to find a government that'd backtrack on a measure like this, for any reason, and if you REALLY think the liberals, conservatives, NDP, or even the bloc would ever deal with this issue again when they've acknowledged they're wrong and thrown some money at it, you're deluded.

No, I'm being hopeful.



The current government acknowledges the tax was wrong, and that's not enough, you want an apology. Name a single member of parliament who was in power or even alive when the head tax was introduced? If those who were taxed want an apology, they can go find the politicians who put the policy into effect. This government didn't do it, and while they acknowledge that the government at the time was wrong, they don't need to apologize, because they're not to blame.

I'm going to guess that Poedua is not going to read this paragraph. ;)

The current government put money towards educating Canadians about what happened, and that's not enough, you want money to go to the people who had to pay it in the first place.

Where did I say that?

But beyond that, whether you want to believe it or not, this issue is finished. Just wait and see how much more is done on it.

I guess we will have to wait and see. After this post, any more from you would be hypocritical. ;)

[IronMac]

Nice try.........but you did bring disrepute on our veterans...don't try and squirm away from the fact.

Get real, poedua. Look at the sequence of posts. I don't have time to help you along.


Nonetheless, I did learn something. I didn't realize you could be part of the commonwealth / Empire yet " not really [be] a true independent country "

I'm guessing that you didn't learn anything from the Canadian War Museum link did you?


I have a BETTER idea...why don't YOU visit Vimy Ridge in France or talk to the the family of someone's relative who fought at Vimy and tell them their relative actually died for the Empire - not primarily for Canada...I'm sure they'll thank you profusely for also setting them straight as well. Now, if you DO get to France and Vimy..some things to keep in mind........

None of your links shows that those troops signed up to fight for Canada as a nation. Why do you think Vimy was such an important victory for the development of the country? Troops went to fight for "King and Empire" not for "Canada". The monuments were raised AFTER the war was over and after the seminal victory of Vimy.

Try this website:

http://www.kingandempire.com/

It's telling that Canadian artists were called "The King's Guests" isn't it?

Further on, try here:

http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/department/history/canada4-en.asp

"As a member of the Empire, Canada became a belligerent the moment Britain declared war."

[IronMac]

What evidence is there that the canadian public ( not the government ) ever openly discriminated against blacks or Chinese ? ...some examples of social injustices heaped on these specific groups by ordinary candians in the past century may help illustrate your point.


Try here, page 14:

http://collections.ic.gc.ca/vancouver/pdf/goldenyears.pdf

What? No comment from the verbose poedua?

[IronMac]

and conminue the debate with some degree of civility ...we'll all be further ahead.

Yes, you should take your own advice:

Why don't you smarten up

how remarkably similar your style was to theirs - juvenile - I mistakenly assumed you were in high school - my mistake, you fooled me.

[Truth]

You're wrong.

If I was at the receiving end of your remarks , I would DEMAND an apology too. Happy's DEMANDS were provoked by our inflammatory comments - I've demanded apologies from other RFDers before elsewhere on other threads / forums - and got them - THOSE are RFDers I respect.

So, I HAVE been in your shoes .....both giving and receiving apologies.

Put your bravado and pride aside.... just because someone DEMANDED something from you .....and do the mature thing, apologise and move on - you made a mistake - admit it like a man.


Well i still feel right. ANd if i don't feel comfortable in doing something, i won't do it. Plain and simple you can't force me to do anything.

ANd Happy doesn't deserve jack **** for the way he approached me with his "demand" as if he is some spoiled brat who gets whatever he wants. I never said anything negative for him to tell me to "Now back the hell up!" comment he made. I never addressed him. SO he should mind his God damn business.

So no apology for something i didn't do wrong. Cya.
p.s i have on many occasions apologized to different people in real life AND the internet. These people i apologized to were respectful and not SEEKING an apology in turn.

Happy didn't approach me in a respectful manner, so he can go tell the police whatever he wants. lol i'll talk to the fire department. lol

[poedua]

Well i still feel right. ANd if i don't feel comfortable in doing something, i won't do it. Plain and simple you can't force me to do anything.

ANd Happy doesn't deserve jack **** for the way he approached me with his "demand" as if he is some spoiled brat who gets whatever he wants. I never said anything negative for him to tell me to "Now back the hell up!" comment he made. I never addressed him. SO he should mind his God damn business.

So no apology for something i didn't do wrong. Cya.

You just don't get it ..do you.

Apologies aren't so much about consequences ( Happy's reaction ) but more about for your motives in sending that inflammatory post in the first place.

Your ruin any chance of an apology with these 'excuses' you're whining about.....when in the end, an apology is the best way to have the last word.

You blew it.

[poedua]

Yes, you should take your own advice:


Please....' smarten up ' and ' juvenile ' ARE civil


perhaps your understanding of what actually is ' civil ' lies at the heart of your problems with other posters

[Truth]

You just don't get it ..do you.

Apologies aren't so much about consequences ( Happy's reaction ) but more about for your motives in sending that inflammatory post in the first place.

Your ruin any chance of an apology with these 'excuses' you're whining about.....when in the end, an apology is the best way to have the last word.

You blew it.


lol you are so cute when you are serious and upset lol.

Seems like you have beef with someone else now ^^^^ lol its becoming the streets on these forums now.
cyber drivebyes lol brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrt!

[Happy13178]

I already have. The police will be contacting admin for what info they have on you, and they'll come have a chat with you. I don't care about an apology from you at this point...it's clear you're not capable of seeing where your fault was. Maybe the police can explain it better. On my part, if they allow it, I'll press charges. Later.

[devious9191]

Is there any reason this thread hasn't been locked yet (and maybe a couple of dumbasses sent to time out)? You guys are out of control.

It's an internet forum, designed to foster (more or less intelligent) debate, and every comment on it should be taken with a grain of salt. If you guys are taking it seriously to the point where you're uttering death threats and reporting anonymous posts to the police, then you're taking it too far, and should maybe consider another less engaging past time.

[poedua]

lol you are so cute when you are serious and upset lol.

Seems like you have beef with someone else now ^^^^ lol its becoming the streets on these forums now.
cyber drivebyes lol brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrt!

Upset ?

Quite the contrary..... I find this 'schoollyard spat' you're embroiled in and seemingly hell bent on dragging out.......rather amusing.

( it also makes me realize just how mature my 11 year old really is )

[mingming]

Is there any reason this thread hasn't been locked yet (and maybe a couple of dumbasses sent to time out)? You guys are out of control.

It's an internet forum, designed to foster (more or less intelligent) debate, and every comment on it should be taken with a grain of salt. If you guys are taking it seriously to the point where you're uttering death threats and reporting anonymous posts to the police, then you're taking it too far, and should maybe consider another less engaging past time.

Agreed, do I call the police if some dumba$$ swears at me on the street?

[poedua]

Is there any reason this thread hasn't been locked yet (and maybe a couple of dumbasses sent to time out)? You guys are out of control.

It's an internet forum, designed to foster (more or less intelligent) debate, and every comment on it should be taken with a grain of salt. If you guys are taking it seriously to the point where you're uttering death threats and reporting anonymous posts to the police, then you're taking it too far, and should maybe consider another less engaging past time.

Good post.

Listen to him guys...he's got 2,000 posts under his belt .....he knows how RFD works when it comes to these spats.

[Truth]

Is there any reason this thread hasn't been locked yet (and maybe a couple of dumbasses sent to time out)? You guys are out of control.

It's an internet forum, designed to foster (more or less intelligent) debate, and every comment on it should be taken with a grain of salt. If you guys are taking it seriously to the point where you're uttering death threats and reporting anonymous posts to the police, then you're taking it too far, and should maybe consider another less engaging past time.


i don't know i've tried masturbating a few times in my apartment but... its just not the same as these amazing forum debates lol.
everyone seems to take everything so serious on here.

[poedua]

i don't know i've tried masturbating a few times in my apartment but... its just not the same as these amazing forum debates lol.
everyone seems to take everything so serious on here.


" everyone seems to take everything so serious on here " ??????

Isn't that a little like the pot calling the kettle black.????..look in the mirror.

[Truth]

" everyone seems to take everything so serious on here " ??????

Isn't that a little like the pot calling the kettle black.????..look in the mirror.


i don't get it... all i see in the reflection is Michael Jackson smiling back at me while holding his crotch.... oh oh.... crap this doesn't look too good...

[gman]

i don't get it... all i see in the reflection is Michael Jackson smiling back at me while holding his crotch.... oh oh.... crap this doesn't look too good...
I thought you are not white. :D

[Truth]

I thought you are not white. :D


sorry what was that??? i was too busy drinking some Holy Juice Michael jackson offered me... what did you say???

[gman]

The government is apologizing for them having to pay for the better choice. That's all. And these discussions are moot anyways, because the decision has been made. The government isn't going to revisit the issue now.
Just heard that from radio, they are going to revisit it.

First, they said it is just an agreement between the government and the appointed group and has no legal binding. It is not cast in stone.

Second, the bill C-333 will not be submitted in this year as it was planned.

Third, they will invite all parties including the group appointed and the group representing the head taxed. They say C-333 will be amended before it is submitted to the Parliament again.

Forth, well, if Liberals lose the election (probably in January), C-333 is probably gone.

Just heard it from radio, I can't find any link to confirm that yet.

[hagbard]

Be nice if the gov't would quite finding new ways to blow our money.

[IronMac]

perhaps your understanding of what actually is ' civil ' lies at the heart of your problems with other posters

I've seen some of your other posts on other threads. I don't think that I'm the one with the problem.

As an aside, you never answered the question of why you're ok with the government apologizing and setting up an "education fund" when, according to your argument that because the Chinese voluntarily paid a legal tax, they shouldn't be entitled to compensation. If it was all voluntary and legal, the government should simply do nothing, correct?

[poedua]

I've seen some of your other posts on other threads. I don't think that I'm the one with the problem.

Trust me...you are. You can read ( my posts ) ...that's a good start.

Again you're confusing civil with assertive ...trust me ...and if you've read my post these past few months you also would have noticed my apologising and my getting apologies.

THAT'S civil........THAT'S what you have the inability to understand...your post to Happy was aggressive - not assertive - but a personal attack...... attack logic and stupid statements....not the person....the sooner you learn that, the quicker you'll start regaining all the respect you've lost to RFDers.

Be a man...apologise to Happy...learn form it...and move on....


" a man should never be ashamed to own he has been in the wrong, which is but saying, in other words, that he is wiser today than he was yesterday"
- Alexander Pope, 1688 - 1744

[Truth]

naw i don't feel like being a man anymore...... tired of people not holding doors open for me and not offering me free drinks at the clubs

i just bought a blond wig and some make up. I'm planning to get some high heels too.

I feel like transforming my penis into a vagina shaped penis too......

By the way, i don't really need RFDers respect, love, lust, desire, hate, anger, sadness, etc etc

all i need right now is some crack......

[poedua]

naw i don't feel like being a man anymore...... tired of people not holding doors open for me and not offering me free drinks at the clubs

i just bought a blond wig and some make up. I'm planning to get some high heels too.

I feel like transforming my penis into a vagina shaped penis too......

By the way, i don't really need RFDers respect, love, lust, desire, hate, anger, sadness, etc etc

all i need right now is some crack......

an exemplary post.... as usual

[IronMac]

You can read ( my posts ) ...that's a good start.

Yes, especially the one with the (almost) homophobic slant to it.

And, let's not talk about the one with the veiled death threat (Terminex?).

your post to Happy was aggressive ... a personal attack...... attack logic and stupid statements....not the person....

I never attacked Happy in a personal manner. Show us the post where I did that.

It's also interesting how you don't acknowledge my response to your question:

What evidence is there that the canadian public ( not the government ) ever openly discriminated against blacks or Chinese ? ...some examples of social injustices heaped on these specific groups by ordinary candians in the past century may help illustrate your point.

Nor do you acknowledge the various links from both public and private sources w/ regards to veterans.

I find it hard to believe that you ever apologize for anything especially if you don't acknowledge that you've made a mistake or refuse to look at contrary evidence. Why not show us two to three posts of your's where you do apologize? It may help your credibility. ;)

[Happy13178]

I think he looked at your post and thought it was Truth. You never said anything bad to me. You debated, properly.

[poedua]

Yes, especially the one with the (almost) homophobic slant to it

What in GOD's name are you talking about?????

WHAT is homophobic ? cite ( paste ) specific words...phrases...please from this thread ...or ANY thread !!!!

I have NEVER MADE any - even remoetly suggestive " homophobic " word or phrase to anyone ...and unless you can prove it...i suggest you apologise !!!!!

And, let's not talk about the one with the veiled death threat (Terminex?).

This is a personal attack.

I'm going to give you one chance ......" the one with the veiled death threat "....this is serious accusation .....you are slandering me and accusing me of making a ' death threat when I never did or have have ever done so in my life..

Where did I CATAGORICALLY and UNEQUIVICOLLY utter a death threat to anyone on this thread ?????? Cite the threat on this thread.

..I strongly suggest you smarten up & grow up, and withdraw that accusation and apologise immediatley OR I WILL report you.

That's a disgusting accusation.

Nor do you acknowledge the various links from both public and private sources w/ regards to veterans?))

Make a relevant contribution and I'll gladly acknowledge it.

Why not show us two to three posts of your's where you do apologize? It may help your credibility. ;)

Nice try , if the burden of proof was on me ..I would gladly cite them, no problem ...but since it's not, it's not my issue ..it's yours. Sorry.

[IronMac]

I think he looked at your post and thought it was Truth. You never said anything bad to me. You debated, properly.

Thanks Happy, and I think that you are right about the mixup.

As for the government revisiting this issue...I can't really find a mention of it in any other news media. But, I'm still hopeful! :D

[IronMac]

What in GOD's name are you talking about?????

WHAT is homophobic ? cite ( paste ) specific words...phrases...please from this thread ...or ANY thread !!!!

It should be in the other thread...you can check there.



I'm going to give you one chance ......" the one with the veiled death threat "....this is serious accusation .....you are slandering me and accusing me of making a ' death threat when I never did or have have ever done so in my life..

You're going to give me one chance or what? Is that another threat? :lol:


Where did I CATAGORICALLY and UNEQUIVICOLLY utter a death threat to anyone on this thread ?????? Cite the threat on this thread.

I said "veiled". Sheesh, man, look up that word!!

And I don't know why you're asking about the threat being on this thread when you should be able to see that the reference to it ("Terminex") belonged on another thread.



..I strongly suggest you smarten up & grow up,

I see a personal attack right there.


and withdraw that accusation and apologise immediatley OR I WILL report you.

First of all, I will not withdraw my opinion on what you've written and, second, go ahead and try to report me. :)



Make a relevant contribution and I'll gladly acknowledge it.

The contributions were relevant to the discussion. By now, it's evident that you're not here to discuss anything.



Nice try , if the burden of proof was on me ..I would gladly cite them, no problem ...but since it's not, it's not my issue ..it's yours. Sorry.

First of all, in this thread, you have asked for proof at least twice for various assertions such as whether or not there was such a thing as a Head Tax and whether or not Canadians (not the government) have ever attacked or discriminated against the Chinese. Your questions or requests for evidence have been answered on all occasions.

Second, you asserted that you've actually apologized to other posters. Now, that we ask you for proof that you've actually done so, in order to back up your own assertion, you refuse. That's not only discourteous but it naturally leads one to question your credibility and honesty.

[poedua]

Second, you asserted that you've actually apologized to other posters. Now, that we ask you for proof that you've actually done so, in order to back up your own assertion, you refuse. That's not only discourteous but it naturally leads one to question your credibility and honesty.


You're upset that I"M discourteous ???????? That's a laugh.

You're FALSELY accusing me of making death threats and homophobic slurs !!!!!!!

Know what, ....I'm ' discourteous ' to people who attack me that way...just a foible of mine ...whatr can I say.....live with it.

I don't have to provide proof for my own actions/post ...I did them , I know them to be true....you're putting them in question as being false...fine ....search all my posts and prove it false...knock yourself out.

Don't talk about credibility and honesty - YOU"RE the onme hurling the accusations at me with no proof...AND when you're proven to be out of line...trust me...you won't apologise in a million years,,,will you ?

Smarten up, grow up ...stop accusing me of making death threats and homophobic slurs.... and stick to the debate.

[IronMac]

You're FALSELY accusing me of making death threats and homophobic slurs !!!!!!!

Do you deny making the Terminex remark not to mention that you have yet to explain the "effie" remark.

I don't have to provide proof for my own actions/post ...I did them , I know them to be true....you're putting them in question as being false...fine ....search all my posts and prove it false...knock yourself out.

You made the assertion, now back it up. You've done the same throughout other threads, asking for backups, now back it up.

[poedua]

Do you deny making the Terminex remark not to mention that you have yet to explain the "effie" remark..

How is Terminex ...amd pest control company ........a death threat ?

OK who was the alleged 'effie' remark directed to toward ? ...Back up your accusation...WHO ?

You made the assertion, now back it up. You've done the same throughout other threads, asking for backups, now back it up.

Back up your accusation - who was ' effie ' directed at ?

[IronMac]

How is Terminex ...amd pest control company ........a death threat ?

Do you deny making the Terminex comment? Can you backup your assertion that you've made apologies before?

[poedua]

Do you deny making the Terminex comment? Can you backup your assertion that you've made apologies before?

Not all all.....sure i did.......let's see. I'm going to call up the Terminex - a pest control company here in TO - and say what exactly to them ?

What are you alleging I'd say to the folks at Terminex ?

Where do you get ' veiled death threat ' from a call to a pest control company ?

Enlighten me, because I just don't see what the heck you're driving at...your imagination is on overdrive..and i supect...... overheating.

you're amusing ...i'll give you that...a constant source of entertainment.

[Truth]

Not all all.....sure i did.......let's see. I'm going to call up the Terminex - a pest control company here in TO - and say what exactly to them ?

What are you alleging I'd say to the folks at Terminex ?

Where do you get ' veiled death threat ' from a call to a pest control company ?

Enlighten me, because I just don't see what the heck you're driving at...your imagination is on overdrive..and i supect...... overheating.

you're amusing ...i'll give you that...a constant source of entertainment.


I thought you wanted to us to stick to the topic, yet i feel you are contradicting yourself by contributing to an argument unrelated to the actual post??? :(

[poedua]

I thought you wanted to us to stick to the topic, yet i feel you are contradicting yourself by contributing to an argument unrelated to the actual post??? :(

I'm not alone....but, you're right !!!!

Having to endure Ironmacs alleged claims of 'phantom ' death theats and 'homophobic' remarks is WAY off topic...and boring....trust me.

Hey Ironmac !!!!...Truth is right....PM me if you have any more rants and delusions you want to share.....we can continue the debate outside of this thread.

Seems the OP has pretty much run it's course anyway.

[seefuthead]

i dont care what this thread is about and dont wanna read whats going on. all i care about is im chinese and if im entitled to some money can someone pm me with details so i can get my damn cheque and buy a ipod. thanks.

[poedua]

i dont care what this thread is about and dont wanna read whats going on. all i care about is im chinese and if im entitled to some money can someone pm me with details so i can get my damn cheque and buy a ipod. thanks.

nice...I'm sure your elders are real proud of YOU !!!!

How comforting that these poor chinese that came to canada suffered as they did ...only to have to now suffer even further at the insensitivity at the shallowness of such a flippant comment- even in jest.

Comments like this, dishonor the struggle of having to live with the stigma and shame that these poor chinese immigrants ancestors of yours had to endure and the memory of that disgusting head tax.

Enjoy your iPod

[Cronic]

Thats right suck the government for something that happened before you were swimming around in your daddy! when the government wont spend money on things that we ALL use Healthcare......give it up :cheesygri


http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/11/17/head-tax051117.html

While there is a group that feels that the payouts aren't enough, and the douchebag Canadian Taxpayers Federation that is against payouts in general, Canada FINALLY officially acknowledges what it did to thousands of Chinese immigrants in the 19th and 20th century and admits that it did something wrong.

I actually have a friend who is a descendant of the original group, so at least he might get something.

Still, it's about time... it's like every single other ethnic group got something except the Chinese. Yeesh.

[Truth]

I'm not alone....but, you're right !!!!

Having to endure Ironmacs alleged claims of 'phantom ' death theats and 'homophobic' remarks is WAY off topic...and boring....trust me.

Hey Ironmac !!!!...Truth is right....PM me if you have any more rants and delusions you want to share.....we can continue the debate outside of this thread.

Seems the OP has pretty much run it's course anyway.


I'm not taking sides. Not yours or Iron's. I'm just trying to be fair.

[poedua]

I'm not taking sides. Not yours or Iron's. I'm just trying to be fair.

I understand...no problem

[mingming]

i dont care what this thread is about and dont wanna read whats going on. all i care about is im chinese and if im entitled to some money can someone pm me with details so i can get my damn cheque and buy a ipod. thanks.

Wow, I can admit that yes, Chinese people are cheap, but we are cheap with reason. And as a fellow Chinese I am ASHAMED that someone can make this sort of comment in a public forum. I don't doubt that there are others with the same view as you, but please be aware that there are Chinese members here whose ancestors were affected by the head tax. But is their current goal all about the $? No, it's about Canada's recognition of the mistake they made. I really hope you are not the type of people that will take advantage of a situation to make a mere buck (eg, hurricaine scam groups, etc).

But if I do find the link to sign up for the head tax refund, I'll make sure I post it in the Freebies section and PM you first thing!!! Happy?

[poedua]

Wow, I can admit that yes, Chinese people are cheap, but we are cheap with reason. And as a fellow Chinese I am ASHAMED that someone can make this sort of comment in a public forum. I don't doubt that there are others with the same view as you, but please be aware that there are Chinese members here whose ancestors were affected by the head tax. But is their current goal all about the $? No, it's about Canada's recognition of the mistake they made. I really hope you are not the type of people that will take advantage of a situation to make a mere buck (eg, hurricaine scam groups, etc).

But if I do find the link to sign up for the head tax refund, I'll make sure I post it in the Freebies section and PM you first thing!!! Happy?

Well said

[IronMac]

Not all all.....sure i did.......let's see. I'm going to call up the Terminex - a pest control company here in TO - and say what exactly to them ?



So, let me get this straight...you now deny making the Terminex comment?

And, so far, you've avoided backing up your claim of ever making an apology. It's pretty evident by now that you can't. ;)

[Truth]

Wow, I can admit that yes, Chinese people are cheap, but we are cheap with reason. And as a fellow Chinese I am ASHAMED that someone can make this sort of comment in a public forum. I don't doubt that there are others with the same view as you, but please be aware that there are Chinese members here whose ancestors were affected by the head tax. But is their current goal all about the $? No, it's about Canada's recognition of the mistake they made. I really hope you are not the type of people that will take advantage of a situation to make a mere buck (eg, hurricaine scam groups, etc).

But if I do find the link to sign up for the head tax refund, I'll make sure I post it in the Freebies section and PM you first thing!!! Happy?


True MingMing, the person seeking the ipod helps make it seem like ALL us Asians care about is money and wealth. We DO also have our dignity and self respect like every other group of humans on this earth too!!! Its not always about the money you know.

[poedua]

So, let me get this straight...you now deny making the Terminex comment?

And, so far, you've avoided backing up your claim of ever making an apology. It's pretty evident by now that you can't. ;)



Read the posts, I did admit it......" Not all all.....sure i did "

Grow up...or have a nap...which ever is quicker.

[poedua]

True MingMing, the person seeking the ipod helps make it seem like ALL us Asians care about is money and wealth. We DO also have our dignity and self respect like every other group of humans on this earth too!!! Its not always about the money you know.

Very well said Truth...that iPod post infuriated me...and I'm not even Chinese !!!

Now, i hindsight, I'm wondering if that guy was just ' kidding' and didn't mean what he said...let's hope so.

[mingming]

True MingMing, the person seeking the ipod helps make it seem like ALL us Asians care about is money and wealth. We DO also have our dignity and self respect like every other group of humans on this earth too!!! Its not always about the money you know.

Exactly, I was the first to admit that asians ARE cheap, and we DO care a lot about money and wealth.

But at least we do it with taste!!!

[Mace]

I always thought the religion of money, wealth and status supplanted the lack of organized religion amongst the (generally) agnostic Chinese.

[Truth]

I always thought the religion of money, wealth and status supplanted the lack of organized religion amongst the (generally) agnostic Chinese.


I thought Zen Buddhism and Taost beliefs encouraged their followers to let go of worldly possessions and seek enlightenment through simplicity and harmony with the universe...

[Mace]

I thought Zen Buddhism and Taost beliefs encouraged their followers to let go of worldly possessions and seek enlightenment through simplicity and harmony with the universe...

That's a joke. Ever been to Hong Kong?

[IronMac]

Read the posts, I did admit it......" Not all all.....sure i did "

Grow up...or have a nap...which ever is quicker.

Ok, then, you did make a veiled death threat. ;)

Oh...still no proof that you've ever made apologies? Figures.

[poedua]

Ok, then, you did make a veiled death threat. ;)

Oh...still no proof that you've ever made apologies? Figures.

Post your apology re " effie ' on the " 33% rape thread "

Trust me, you're going to score a lot more points with otehr RFD members by apologizing re ' effie ' than not ..it was a simple mistake you made...that's it...simply admit it and we can all move on...no sense you and I being adversaries indefinitley. As i told you before, I've been proved wrong before and have apologised to others as well. It's a classy thing to do.



" Ok, then, you did make a veiled death threat. " - correct, I've never in my life have made a veiled deasth threat - to anyone.- particularly anyone on RFD.. I did make a statement asking if anyone knew the number of the pest control company here in TO , called " Terninex " .IO admit that, but .I think you've interpreted this feeble attempt at humour the wrong way...as some sort of death threat.


" still no proof that you've ever made apologies " - as i told you before, since you are accusing me of 'not apologising'...the burden of proof is on the acscuser...YOU...., not the target of the accusation..ME.....it's the same as the .' innocent until proven guilty ". doctrine .....the innocent person deosn't have to prove he's innocent ...I know i've aologized...prove I haven't ...pretty simple.

[IronMac]

" still no proof that you've ever made apologies " - as i told you before, since you are accusing me of 'not apologising'...the burden of proof is on the acscuser...YOU...., not the target of the accusation..ME.....it's the same as the .' innocent until proven guilty ". doctrine .....the innocent person deosn't have to prove he's innocent ...I know i've aologized...prove I haven't ...pretty simple.

Actually, in Post #245, you're the one who said:

if you've read my post these past few months you also would have noticed my apologising and my getting apologies.

In the later Post #248, I then asked for you to back up your claim:

I find it hard to believe that you ever apologize for anything especially if you don't acknowledge that you've made a mistake or refuse to look at contrary evidence. Why not show us two to three posts of your's where you do apologize? It may help your credibility.

This is not a situation where a prosecutor accuses someone of a crime and then proceeds to try to prove it. This is more akin to a car salesman saying that the car gets 20km per liter and then proceeds to whip out the manufacturer's fuel efficiency tests.

The burden of proof is on you...you made the claim in the first place so you back it up. If you can't, then, be man enough to say that you can't.