Separation Referendum in Quebec?

[devious9191]

Just curious what everyone's opinion is on the topic. With the new leader for PQ in Quebec, it seems that it was part of his platform to try and get a referendum again, should the PQ form the government in Quebec. (Which current polls are showing they will, in 2007)

In 1995, the "No" vote won by just over 1%. In that time we've seen the rise of the Bloc as a federal party, while the liberals have been losing ground in what was traditionally liberal territory. Coupled with the sponsorship scandal, I would assume that would put more votes on the "Yes" side then ever before... and personally I would think that in a new referendum, Quebec would almost certainly have at least a slim majority voting for separation.

Any opinions?

Edit: Personally, I think it would be a good thing. I don't see any reason that we couldn't maintain trade relations (primarily for energy), which I think would cost this country far less than it does now to support that province. It would also probably put the nail in the coffin of official bilingualism, which is costly and unnecessary.

[JAC]

Let 'em go. We'll keep all federal property, take away all their cush government jobs and military, keep all native lands, assign them their share of the national debt, revoke their right to use our currency, set up border crossings and make 'em get passports to enter Canada.

Then, in two years, the rest of us will have a referendum and vote NOT to let them back in.

[yayawhoo2003]

Tough call. Good thigns for them leaving, and bad things as well. Its really up to the vote!!!

[vonteego]

Let 'em go. We'll keep all federal property, take away all their cush government jobs and military, keep all native lands, assign them their share of the national debt, revoke their right to use our currency, set up border crossings and make 'em get passports to enter Canada.

Then, in two years, the rest of us will have a referendum and vote NOT to let them back in.

The Clarity Act is our friend. Leaves the door open for Quebec itself to be annexed (i.e. Canada keeps Montreal and all other federalist ridings).

Problem is though is that if Quebec goes kaput economically, it will become a haven for organized crime (it already is!).

[danfromwaterloo]

This is what I think:

Every decade or so, Quebec decides to hold a referendum on whether they can leave the country. Every referendum, they get beaten. Therefore, make the electorate decide once and for all.

REFERENDUM QUESTION: Do you want Quebec to seperate from the rest of Canada and become a soverign nation, or do you want to solidify Quebec's place within the Canadian Confederation.

Yes, I think Quebec should seperate from Canada
No, I think Quebec should become a permanent member of the Canadian Confederation.

Quite simple. Stay for all time, or leave for all time. Period. How much money has been wasted because of the whole seperation question. The Sponsorship Scandal would not have happened without the Seperatists.

[philelmo]

J.A. MacDonald's dream was to unite canada coast to coast.. hope they don't go

[Montague]

This is what I think:

Every decade or so, Quebec decides to hold a referendum on whether they can leave the country. Every referendum, they get beaten. Therefore, make the electorate decide once and for all.

REFERENDUM QUESTION: Do you want Quebec to seperate from the rest of Canada and become a soverign nation, or do you want to solidify Quebec's place within the Canadian Confederation.

Yes, I think Quebec should seperate from Canada
No, I think Quebec should become a permanent member of the Canadian Confederation.

Quite simple. Stay for all time, or leave for all time. Period. How much money has been wasted because of the whole seperation question. The Sponsorship Scandal would not have happened without the Seperatists.
That is the PQ strategy (keep having referendums till they win one).

Sooner or later they will win a vote (they can lose ten million times - but only have to win once).

[fakishan]

The big question is, if Quebec seperates, will I be allowed to remain on RFD ? :D

[Montague]

The big question is, if Quebec seperates, will I be allowed to remain on RFD ? :D
You can set up your own website:

affairesrougesdedrapeau.pq! :razz:

[divx]

The big question is, if Quebec seperates, will I be allowed to remain on RFD ? :D
Foreigners :lol:

[HeatSeeker]

They will never vote to separate. They are a have not province and can never afford to go it alone unless they wish to assume a very heavy debt load in order to maintain their existing standard of living. That being said, I hope they don't go but I wish this whole question would go away once and for all. This separation nonsense occupies way too much of our attention and is an economic distraction.

I do feel that separatists have been handled with kid gloves and it's about time that they be treated like the scum that they are. Talk of separation to divide a country is nothing less than treasoness and should be dealt with appropriately. They should be jailed. Realisticaly, that's impossible, I know, but that's how I feel. However, we can make it more difficult for them to exist. Why do we allow the BQ party to exist? Why are they receiving federal money to operate? I don't wish my tax dollars to go to a separatist party. I'm not sure what kind of an oath they have to take when they become an MP but they should be made to swear an oath of allegence to Canada and if they break it by spouting separatist nonsense they get booted out of the house of parliament.

[manixc]

Can someone list some advantages for Quebec if they do separate from Canada?

[Shaner]

If they don't want to be part of Canada, let them go.
I have no patience for stupid, whining people who complain about being a part of the greatest country in the world.

Quebec gets preferential treatment because they whine so much, yet they still think the way they get treated is unfair.

Who gives a crap whether french is on every cereal coast to coast, does that really make a difference? I'm sick of hearing about them whine. If they want to leave, good riddance. Their economy will collapse so hard and fast they won't even have the money to drive back into Canada.

[HoTiCE_]

In my opinion, the federal government will never let Quebec go. At the last minute, or after a yes win in Quebec, Ottawa will have no other choice but to negotiate a deal to keep the province inside the confederation.

The reason? By letting Quebec go, they are opening the door for others to do so, and i'm talking about BC or Alberta, the new rich kid on the block. It is obvious that Alberta is giving out much more then its pulling in right now and they would see absolutely no reason to stay within Canada. Ontario would be isolated and won't survive alone, especially with Ford & GM going bankrupt soon (hypothetically)

[HoTiCE_]

If they don't want to be part of Canada, let them go.
I have no patience for stupid, whining people who complain about being a part of the greatest country in the world.

Quebec gets preferential treatment because they whine so much, yet they still think the way they get treated is unfair.

Who gives a crap whether french is on every cereal coast to coast, does that really make a difference? I'm sick of hearing about them whine. If they want to leave, good riddance. Their economy will collapse so hard and fast they won't even have the money to drive back into Canada.

This is the kind of argument that is of NO help to the discussion and I'm a federalist who has voted no in the last referendum. Remember that this is what everyone in Canada said last time in 1995...if they want to go, let them go, who cares about them...etc...but yet, 3 days before the referendum, you guys showed up in town for one big party saying how much you loved us.

People who say we get preferential treatment because we whine so much should take a minute to think before blurting out such non-sense narrow-minded affirmation. YES we are asking preferential treatment in some areas (granted, sometimes they ARE asking TOO much) because of our distinct origins. Keep in mind that we're a +/- 8 Milliion population in a sea of 330 M english-speaking people and are only taking steps to make sure we do not lose that distinct trait.

Canada is known around the world to be one huge melting pot. That is something we should fight to keep together instead of having a "if they wanna go, then leave" attitude. I am a proud canadian as i am a proud quebecer

[Montague]

Canada is known around the world to be one huge melting pot.
Think you mean multiculturalism.

"Melting pot" is:

The melting pot is a metaphor for the way in which heterogeneous societies develop, in which the ingredients in the pot (people of different cultures and religions) are combined so as to lose their discrete identities and yield a final product of uniform consistency and flavor, which is quite different from the original inputs. This process is also known as assimilation.

(source "Wikipedia").

[danfromwaterloo]

This is the kind of argument that is of NO help to the discussion and I'm a federalist who has voted no in the last referendum. Remember that this is what everyone in Canada said last time in 1995...if they want to go, let them go, who cares about them...etc...but yet, 3 days before the referendum, you guys showed up in town for one big party saying how much you loved us.

Wasn't us. I wouldn't kiss someone's ass to keep them in this country.

People who say we get preferential treatment because we whine so much should take a minute to think before blurting out such non-sense narrow-minded affirmation. YES we are asking preferential treatment in some areas (granted, sometimes they ARE asking TOO much) because of our distinct origins. Keep in mind that we're a +/- 8 Milliion population in a sea of 330 M english-speaking people and are only taking steps to make sure we do not lose that distinct trait.

Why should you guys get preferential treatment? Because you're French? So what, I'm English. Does that mean that I should have more rights than someone who speaks Italian, or Spanish, or Greek? Hell no.

And think of what a stupid and ridiculous concept "distinct origins" really is. We're ALL from distinct origins. Yes, you are 8 million in a sea of 330 million people, but how does our speaking english ruin your speaking French? I'm all for allowing provinces to set their own language laws, so long as both of the national languages are accomodated.

And as for protecting yourself from losing your "distinct trait"...that is a personal decision for each of your 8 million people. If they choose to observe the French traditions, they're free to do so. If the people of Quebec were really so interested in protecting their traditions, they wouldn't need a special law to enforce it.

Canada is known around the world to be one huge melting pot. That is something we should fight to keep together instead of having a "if they wanna go, then leave" attitude. I am a proud canadian as i am a proud quebecer

Wow. You must have skipped high school Civics class. We're actually a "tossed salad". We're glad you're proud to be Canadian because we all should be damn proud. Its this air of arrogance that the Seperatists exude that says "Screw this country, we don't want to be a part of it. We can do it better." Thats what we all hate.

[HoTiCE_]

Why should you guys get preferential treatment? Because you're French? So what, I'm English. Does that mean that I should have more rights than someone who speaks Italian, or Spanish, or Greek? Hell no.

Last time I took history in High School, nor Italian/Spanish or Greek were an official language in the Canadian Constitution. French was though.



And think of what a stupid and ridiculous concept "distinct origins" really is. We're ALL from distinct origins. Yes, you are 8 million in a sea of 330 million people, but how does our speaking english ruin your speaking French? I'm all for allowing provinces to set their own language laws, so long as both of the national languages are accomodated.


It doesn't ruin it but it does danger it. To think that the fact that 8 M in a sea of 330 M doesn't hurt our ability to keep the french culture alive and distinct shows a lack of understanding. Let me illustrate my point.

Why the hell does Canada, as a whole country, all 30+ M of its citizens, from Vancouver to St-John, NEEDS:

-the CRTC to protect its national television content? so that we keep seeing the reruns of Canadian Tire/Molson/Jean Coutu commercials during the Superbown instead of the American ones?
-The federal government to heavily subsidize EVERY canadian televised/radio content by giving out generous tax incentives?
-the CRTC to regulate who or who can't own telecom/media/banks companies (to protect from foreign control)

The answer to that is to PROTECT Canadian content and our way of life from the mastodont 300+ M-populated American culture. So why is that widely accepted but not among our own borders? I'm not saying Ottawa should meet EVERY demand Quebec has, cause God knows we have some ridiculous ones, I will be the first to admit, but they SHOULD however at least listen to some of the concerns we have.

[airodus]

This is the kind of argument that is of NO help to the discussion and I'm a federalist who has voted no in the last referendum. Remember that this is what everyone in Canada said last time in 1995...if they want to go, let them go, who cares about them...etc...but yet, 3 days before the referendum, you guys showed up in town for one big party saying how much you loved us.

People who say we get preferential treatment because we whine so much should take a minute to think before blurting out such non-sense narrow-minded affirmation. YES we are asking preferential treatment in some areas (granted, sometimes they ARE asking TOO much) because of our distinct origins. Keep in mind that we're a +/- 8 Milliion population in a sea of 330 M english-speaking people and are only taking steps to make sure we do not lose that distinct trait.

Canada is known around the world to be one huge melting pot. That is something we should fight to keep together instead of having a "if they wanna go, then leave" attitude. I am a proud canadian as i am a proud quebecer

330 million?

Melting pot?

Umm.. America?

[spider]

Edit: Personally, I think it would be a good thing. I don't see any reason that we couldn't maintain trade relations (primarily for energy), which I think would cost this country far less than it does now to support that province. It would also probably put the nail in the coffin of official bilingualism, which is costly and unnecessary.

Agreed

Seperation is coming...soon. It will cause about 5-10 years of instability in our economy...after which Canada will thrive...Quebec will thrive too. Quebec's borders will not be negotiable.People working for the federal government in Quebec will have to make a choice if they wish to continue working for the feds..or move to Canada.Most of the people moving as a result of the seperation will be out of Quebec. ..Ottawa will grow. There will be some rebelion in Quebec..small and squashed fast. The Liberal party as we know it will be forever gone blaimed for the cause of Canada's breakup. Power in Canada will shift to money...west. Official bilingualism won't last long.
The wheels are allready in motion you can't turn this train around now.

[Anessa]

Let 'em go. We'll keep all federal property, take away all their cush government jobs and military, keep all native lands, assign them their share of the national debt, revoke their right to use our currency, set up border crossings and make 'em get passports to enter Canada.

Then, in two years, the rest of us will have a referendum and vote NOT to let them back in.

Agreed. Let's see how they do without the transfer payments and everything else that Ottawa subsidizes for them.

[danfromwaterloo]

Last time I took history in High School, nor Italian/Spanish or Greek were an official language in the Canadian Constitution. French was though.

Right, and the language itself is protected. You're not talking about protecting the "LANGUAGE", you're talking about protecting the culture, which is not the job of the government to do. I'm all for giving the province the ability to chose it's languages, but when you're trying to protect a culture, that's where you're going to run into almost racist policies.



It doesn't ruin it but it does danger it. To think that the fact that 8 M in a sea of 330 M doesn't hurt our ability to keep the french culture alive and distinct shows a lack of understanding. Let me illustrate my point.

Again, you're trying to protect the CULTURE. I'd be equally against any legislation designed to protect British English culture too, as its just wrong to give preference to one culture over others.


Why the hell does Canada, as a whole country, all 30+ M of its citizens, from Vancouver to St-John, NEEDS:

-the CRTC to protect its national television content? so that we keep seeing the reruns of Canadian Tire/Molson/Jean Coutu commercials during the Superbown instead of the American ones?

I don't think the CRTC SHOULD protect Canadian content. And this 25% Canadian content results in a LOT of really really bad Canadian programming (ie. Ready or Not, ENG, etc)


-The federal government to heavily subsidize EVERY canadian televised/radio content by giving out generous tax incentives?

I'm against that too.


-the CRTC to regulate who or who can't own telecom/media/banks companies (to protect from foreign control)

Telecom - against that. Media - against that. Banks - for that (because the fact that the country's money should be in the hands of Canadian companies).

The answer to that is to PROTECT Canadian content and our way of life from the mastodont 300+ M-populated American culture. So why is that widely accepted but not among our own borders? I'm not saying Ottawa should meet EVERY demand Quebec has, cause God knows we have some ridiculous ones, I will be the first to admit, but they SHOULD however at least listen to some of the concerns we have.

The idea that you can protect a way of life is ludicrous and oxymoronic. If a way of life is chosen, is it going to be swayed by television? Newspapers? Alternate languages? Think of it this way: If Quebec were Amish, and they were against technology, because it threatens their way of life, would you support them outlawing technology? Or placing severe restrictions on technology? It's BACKWARDS - if it was a threat, its because the Amish are choosing to follow technology. If the French culture is threatened, its not because of Americans, or English Canadians, or anybody other than the French.

[HoTiCE_]

Canada is one disfunctional family. Quebec on the east, Alberta on the West.

Maybe a win at the next olympic hockey tournament (the one true event that unites everyone from coast to coast) will help but in the end,


Confederation needs to be re-done.

[airodus]

I think the big resentment from the rest of Canada is with equalization payments. I like the theory of them, but in practice they have turned out to be a welfare trap.

Quebec has the people and resources to be a prosperous province, but no incentive. It was like with Nova Scotia, when they calculated that for every dollar of money brought in by off-shore gas would mean one less dollar of equalization, it discouraged provincial growth.

Get rid of equalization payments. Instead, Canada should invest money into developing Quebec's industry and economy (as well as other have not provinces). Quebec will be happy about the Canadian support. Canada will be happy that Quebec will become a prosperous member of the Federation.

Sure, it will be several years or even decades of pain, but in the long run it will make everyone better off and boost solidarity.

As for bilingualism and what not, it's a waste of money. At best, it should be limited to Quebec and not imposed on the rest of Canada. There are better ways to preserve your culture than by forcing it on others.

[Ziggy007]

Wow the benefits of Canada without Quebec is fascinating indeed. First off we can boost our economy massively without them. The part that the PQ doesnt' tell the referendum voters is that Quebec alerady gets an insane cut of taxes and other goodies. If they leave they won't be in candy land anymore.

Canada as a whole benefits as we no longer have to give them payoffs for crying, and we don't have to translate everything into french anymore. Our kids can also spend more time in important education such as read, math and science, instead of french lingual classes.

I think in the next election we will see a large swing towards the bloc because of the outrage towards the sponsorship scandal (I don't understand that much as the corrupt people were just french liberals anyways, but ok...). Why aren't they ever outraged at all the money that gets wasted on these referendum votes?

My guess is eventually they will leave Canada (maybe not on the next vote, but at some point). They will quickly find that they cannot survive on their own and look to join another bigger country. France doesn't want the whiners across the ocean, and they will have too much pride to return to Canada, so they will join the states. Once a part of the states they will whine and the whip will come down on them, they will lose all of their individuality and be made to conform to the US and maybe then will they realize how good they had it all along in Canada.

[fredsmith]

Wanna put an end to referenda (and early eldctions for that matter)?

Make the people calling the referendum or election PAY FOR IT. They'll get their money back if they win.

Make the people calling for the referendum or election PAY FOR IT'S PROMOTION - watch support shrivel!!

Why should a government that does not have a mandate to do so take public money to fund it's private agenda? Remember that in Quebec, it only requires about 30% of the people who vote to elect a majority in the 'National Assembly'. That's because of the fact that we do not have 'rep by pop'.

Require that the referendum be won my A MAJORITY OF THE ELIGIBLE VOTERS - after all, something as fundamental as secession should require that most of the affected people vote FOR it. Want to maintain the status quo? Stay home.

[Anessa]

Canada is one disfunctional family. Quebec on the east, Alberta on the West.

Maybe a win at the next olympic hockey tournament (the one true event that unites everyone from coast to coast) will help but in the end,


Confederation needs to be re-done.

But we did win in 2002 and 2004 and we're still divided.

[Mcp]

HEY!!! FROGS!!!! Either Leave or sit down and shut-up.....

We'd like you to stay, but if ya gotta.... GET GOIN!!!!

[Anessa]

They could split the country further when we have a referendum to let them back in after they learn that without federalism and its $$$$$, they are messed. I'd like to see a NO vote to letting them back in.

[Mcp]

Lets have a referendum to see if we want to keep the complaining bastards...

[vonteego]

Ontario stands to win BIG TIME if Quebec leaves confederation. The 1970's and 80's saw Toronto/GTA grow and business move here from Quebec (or business that would've theoretically set-up shop in Montreal - formerly Canada's economic powerhouse).

I'm staring at five banks right now in downtown Toronto that can attest to this point :) Would've been in Montreal if not for all the referendum talk....

[mart242]

Something that bugs me: Lots of people from Quebec say that canada doesn't give them anything. Actually, they receive more than they do according to this:

http://www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/eqpe.html

Quebec will be receiving 5 billion $ from Canada under the "Equalization Program". So by staying in Canada they actually receive money.

I'm originally from Montreal and moved to Ottawa 5 years ago. I'm fed up of the **** with Quebec and hope that they separate once and for all. It will help the Ontario economy tremendously.

[Anessa]

I'd laugh if Quebec turned into a Third World country ...and CIDA had to give them developmental aid...haha.

[Montague]

Ontario stands to win BIG TIME if Quebec leaves confederation. The 1970's and 80's saw Toronto/GTA grow and business move here from Quebec (or business that would've theoretically set-up shop in Montreal - formerly Canada's economic powerhouse).

I'm staring at five banks right now in downtown Toronto that can attest to this point :) Would've been in Montreal if not for all the referendum talk....
Not only that - take a look at the number of seats in Parliament with and without Quebec.

Today: Ontario 106 seats out of 308 total (34.42%)
Without Quebec: Ontario 106 seats out of 233 total (45.49%)

[HoTiCE_]

so much hate. sometimes i wonder why i'm even fighting for this point of view


guess we're meant to leave...

[BlackEros]

Let Quebec seperate then Canada can place a embargo on Quebec like the U.S. did to Cuba. They still drive cars from the 50's and 60's in Cuba. :twisted:

[JAC]

so much hate. sometimes i wonder why i'm even fighting for this point of view
guess we're meant to leave...
Are you really so surprised at the backlash? Are quebeccers so insulated from reality they don't realize what a disaster they're headed for?

Stay. Go. Just tell 'em to STFU already.

[Samir]

so much hate. sometimes i wonder why i'm even fighting for this point of view


guess we're meant to leave...

Je te comprend "Glace Chaude". Des fois c'est trop dur d'être un fédéraliste au Québec. Je te prie de ne pas lacher la cause, nous avons besoins de bons fédéralistes maintenant plus que jamais.

Le reste du Canada ne se presseront jamais pour comprendre le fait Québécois. Re-lis tout les messages dans ce sujet, ça ne parle que de l'argent. Il vont jamais comprendre que le nationalisme Québécois a toujours été un mouvement causé par un manque de respect.

Reste que, à la fin de la journée, le Québec s'est battu pour conserver sa culture. La job est pas mal faite, et on sait que le Québec peut opérer très librement dans le contexte de la fédération. Jean Lesage avait raison, mais c'est le temps de passé à d'autre chose ici et il faut que les séparatistes le comprennent.

Courage.

[Samir]

You know why there are a lot of separatists in Quebec?

Because of ignorants like you guys. You can chastise Quebec for being ignorant about all the perks offered by Canada, but you guys are equally ignorant about Quebec's history.

I will fight the separatists here till my dying breath. Please don't make my job harder with your idiocy.

[najibs]

if this did happen what would happen to the Montreal Canadiens hockey team??? They'd have to rename themselves...the "Separatists" :lol:

[fakishan]

May 1995
Volume 13, Number 5

Split and Prosper
Eric Duhaime and Pierre Desrochers

When discussing the secession of Quebec from the Rest of Canada (ROC), many Anglo-Canadian economists become doomsday preachers of apocalyptic scenarios. They predict social calamities such as poverty, mass unemployment, civil war, and mass exodus.

They should settle down, try to be rational, and focus on the only real issue: the long-term economic well-being of Quebecois and Canadians.

Some people estimate that if Quebec secedes, it would bear a transition cost of 2% of its GNP. It's possible. But this price must be balanced against the huge tribute Quebec pays to stay in the union--among them the costs of political uncertainty. It would be better to pay the costs of separation one time, rather pay for an unworkable Canada every year forever.

The Fraser Institute tells us that "an independent Quebec would rival the Third World in terms of its all-government indebtedness." But as the same group pointed out elsewhere, Canada already ranks behind Burundi and just ahead of Morocco in indebtedness. There's nothing new in debt. What's new is the chance to get out of it. This is what separation offers.

It is demagoguery to compile the costs of sovereignty without addressing the costs of a unified Canada. People forget the $3 billion lost annually to Ottawa-Quebec feuding over jurisdiction and program duplication. Quebec is a small and socially cohesive entity. It is capable of reaching political consensus on key questions rather quickly. These gains of separation would be huge.

A cliche holds that "this country was built by government." Indeed, but again at what cost? The union has forced on Quebec a long line of government interventions, including protectionism, a huge welfare state, pricey railways and canals, largess such as Air Canada, and fantastic expenses in bilingualism and multiculturalism.

Under separation, all these costs would at least be negotiable. Today, Quebec has no choice but to pay them. Indeed, keeping the union together is a major purpose of these interventions in the free market.

More than ever, Canada is kept together by Government programs. The government's make-work spending, redistribution policies, and debt accumulation (which mortgages the future) concentrates benefits in the hands of privileged minorities. The costs of are spread onto all taxpayers. Can any serious economist argue that this dilapidation reflects economic efficiency? No program can repair the damage that has been done to Quebec.

Attempts to appease political tensions have cost billions of dollars. After being caught in an unworkable federation for 127 years, it is time to ask whether this battle is any longer affordable.

Quebecois and Canadians have an option. They can continue along this aimless and unprofitable path. Or they can give themselves two or more independent countries that would do less harm to economic common sense.

Without a central government bankrupting everybody else, Quebec and the Rest of Canada would have no choice but to trade, compete for capital, and be productive on their on terms. This competition between countries will drive down regulations and taxes within countries, and thus increase prosperity for all.

As for those who believe that the road to prosperity lies in protectionism instead of openness, welfare instead of productivity, they would at least be accountable for their own impoverishment.

Given the peaceful history of the Canadian experiment, there is no reason to expect fierce battles or acts of spite after separation. It is only continuing union which raises that specter.

Let's put political feuds behind us and recognize the obvious truth. The Canadian experiment has failed. There need be no recriminations. Instead, let's solve, in a durable manner, the constitutional mess, face the real challenges of our future, and get our economic houses in order. Let's split and prosper.


Eric Duhaime and Pierre Desrochers, Quebec graduate students, are authors of a winning paper in the Mises Institute's competition for "Secession, State, and Economy"

[ronin893]

You know why there are a lot of separatists in Quebec?

Because of ignorants like you guys. You can chastise Quebec for being ignorant about all the perks offered by Canada, but you guys are equally ignorant about Quebec's history.

I will fight the separatists here till my dying breath. Please don't make my job harder with your idiocy.
Well said, Samir, both of your posts. There are too many juvenile idiots in this forum.

I think anyone who is willing to let Quebec go so easily should be put on an ice floe with the separatists. Then the federalists can wave them goodbye from the shore.

I voted no in the 95 referendum, but, alas, I no longer live in Quebec to continue the fight. I will make the utmost effort to attend the next pro-Canada rally! :)

[rc51]

Canada is known around the world to be one huge melting pot. That is something we should fight to keep together instead of having a "if they wanna go, then leave" attitude. I am a proud canadian as i am a proud quebecer

Actually the term I've been told before is that we are a 'mosaic' and NOT a 'melting pot', which is what the US is considered to be.

From the Poli Sci types I've spoken to, mosaic is good, melting pot isn't.

[MTL-TechY]

SEPARATION WILL NEVER HAPPEN, trust being here for so long and talking to the most brilliant, it will not happen. except for a really really big screw up in the rest of canada, which i doubt

[spider]

I will make the utmost effort to attend the next pro-Canada rally! :)

I really don't think a rally will happen again. Voting no to separation will be labeled as voting yes to more Liberal corruption.

[poedua]

Actually the term I've been told before is that we are a 'mosaic' and NOT a 'melting pot', which is what the US is considered to be.

From the Poli Sci types I've spoken to, mosaic is good, melting pot isn't.

That could be argued.

Doesn't a mosaic exist in the ( riots ) in France ?

In an ' mosaic ', I think the primary allegience people have is to their country of origin and a compulsion is to make their culture thrives and is sustained in their new country ( ie Canada ) - a dictinct piece of the large cultural puzzle called Canada.

In the U.S. , the ' melting post ' assumes you assimilate/ blend in to primarily american culture and norms and the ' expectation '( by other Americans ) is that your primary allegience is to the U.S. first...by changing or assuming a more 'US' sense of identity.

I think the riots in France are fuelled by the citizens not being part of a melting pot- the down side of a mosaic is that the good aspect the cultural distinction it espouses may also breed a sense of isolation and discrimination.

[ronin893]

Actually the term I've been told before is that we are a 'mosaic' and NOT a 'melting pot', which is what the US is considered to be.

From the Poli Sci types I've spoken to, mosaic is good, melting pot isn't.
Agreed. US immigration model is a "melting pot" while Canadian immigration model is a "cultural mosaic". I, for one, prefer the Canadian model. US is about assimilation, Canada is about integration. It was Canada who popularized the concept of multiculturalism. Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiculturalism. We celebrate our cultural differences. Good luck trying to do that in the States.


To French Quebeckers worried about the future of their culture: staying within Canada would be better. Would you rather have 8 million in a sea of 322 million, or rather 30 million people resisting assimilation by 300 million?

[ronin893]

That could be argued.

Doesn't a mosaic exist in the ( riots ) in France ?
France's situation is not comparable to Canada's. Simply read the thread about the France riots. It is common to overhear racist remarks in French streets. It is very rare for an immigrant, even second and third generation immigrants, to find a white collar job. They are either unemployed or employed as a blue collar worker. The French National Assembly doesn't have a single minority as a representative. Make no mistake about it, Canada is a much better country (at least in terms of race relations).


In an ' mosaic ', I think the primary allegience people have is to their country of origin and a compulsion is to make their culture thrives and is sustained in their new country ( ie Canada ) - a dictinct piece of the large cultural puzzle called Canada.
Can't speak for others, but my allegiance is to Canada. Take that into consideration the next time you want to question an immigrant's allegience.

In the U.S. , the ' melting post ' assumes you assimilate/ blend in to primarily american culture and norms and the ' expectation '( by other Americans ) is that your primary allegience is to the U.S. first...by changing or assuming a more 'US' sense of identity.You mean like Michael Jackson? A black man who is ashamed of being black? The US national motto should be "Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."

[Audiogenic]

Just for the record, Quebec cannot LEGALLY separate from Canada...even with a vote....politicians know this but keep the public ignorant to it.

All this comes down to is simple political propaganda to warrant Quebec having more of a say in Ottawa...hence this type of forum to stir that bull up....nothing more.

[Mad.Whack]

Just for the record, Quebec cannot LEGALLY separate from Canada...even with a vote....politicians know this but keep the public ignorant to it.

All this comes down to is simple political propaganda to warrant Quebec having more of a say in Ottawa...hence this type of forum to stir that bull up....nothing more.

Actually Quebec never signed the 1982 constitutions. Politicians in Ottawa say its still binding... but ya no.

The truth of the matter is if there was a "successful" referendum, I doubt the Lt. governor would give its royal accent (Appointed by the federal government). Now THAT would start ****.

---

I'm still against seperation, mind you I'm equally against idiots in Ontario electing the liberal government after getting screwed by them. Strategic voting my ass.

[devious9191]

Just for the record, Quebec cannot LEGALLY separate from Canada...even with a vote....politicians know this but keep the public ignorant to it.

All this comes down to is simple political propaganda to warrant Quebec having more of a say in Ottawa...hence this type of forum to stir that bull up....nothing more.

And what's going to happen if they end up getting 50%+1? If the feds tell them afterwards that they're not letting them go, there would be riots in the streets. The government would probably tell everyone there not to pay federal tax.. it'd cause as much problems at that point to keep them onboard as it would to get rid of them.

[NLI10D]

just wondering, hypothetically speaking, if they did seperate and a major disaster happens, something along the lines like the ice storm in 1998, who do they expect to help them? what nationality would they be?

[guest10586]

I already stated my opinion in many topics but since this is a direct question. If they want to go then let them but the people who do want to stay...say a 50% should be entitled to that much property/resources of quebec. It can be split north/south or west and east. Assuming 100% seperation then quebec should totally seperate. The aboriginals should also be seperated if they so vote to.

Quebec people are right, it will only affect them. I think by seperating maybe that 50% that always whines so much will finally grow up.

[Anessa]

Actually Quebec never signed the 1982 constitutions. Politicians in Ottawa say its still binding... but ya no.

The truth of the matter is if there was a "successful" referendum, I doubt the Lt. governor would give its royal accent (Appointed by the federal government). Now THAT would start ****.

---

I'm still against seperation, mind you I'm equally against idiots in Ontario electing the liberal government after getting screwed by them. Strategic voting my ass.

So leaving/succession from Canada is really just posturing by the Quebec government to get their way in negotiations with Ottawa?

[manixc]

Can someone list some advantages for Quebec if they do separate from Canada?

Can someone answer my question?

[Samir]

Quebec can levy the federal taxes now charged by Ottawa. That means more control of how the money is spent. Right now Ottawa takes the money out and puts it back in but with strings attached. As you can guess the priorities of the fed gov't and the prov gov't are different.

Also, no more adherence to many federal laws, the charter, etc., means Quebec can have full control over language and culture.

[IzzLe]

Just for the record, Quebec cannot LEGALLY separate from Canada...even with a vote....politicians know this but keep the public ignorant to it.


That's true. But the Supreme Court also said that Canada would have the obligation to negotiate Quebec's separation if the province's population voted for it.

Yes, because the majority of Quebecers do not want to seperate, but they also do not want a referendum to show 9% in favour and 91% not in favour, as that would disadvantage them in negotiations.

I wouldn't be so sure. I live in QC city right now, and to tell you the truth, I'm a little worried about what will happen when the ''Parti Quebecois'' gets elected (that will happen for sure, the liberal party is very unpopular :S) and make a third referendum... I'm quite sure that if one was held today, the separatist would win it. :(

To French Quebeckers worried about the future of their culture: staying within Canada would be better. Would you rather have 8 million in a sea of 322 million, or rather 30 million people resisting assimilation by 300 million?

Yeah, anyway, this argument is funny. What really happens is not French Quebeckers being assimilated by English, but French Quebeckers assimilating themselves because English is a far more attractive language (professionally).
I know about it, i'm one of those French Quebeckers hahah

[spider]

Yeah, anyway, this argument is funny. What really happens is not French Quebeckers being assimilated by English, but French Quebeckers assimilating themselves because English is a far more attractive language (professionally).
I know about it, i'm one of those French Quebeckers hahah

Looking forward each generation learns english more and more french won't be as important as it was to the older generation. It won't be long before all Quebecers speak both english and french . Technology/Science is just much easier when conducted in english. Then music and movies and other popular culture will further the trend. Quebecer's will loose thier accents. All the laws
and signs in the world can stop this....only delay it .

[fakishan]

All the laws
and signs in the world can stop this....only delay it .

Draconnian laws forbidding English outside of business, and annual French tests for all citizens (in order to maintain their citizenship) would certainly work. :?:

[spider]

Draconnian laws forbidding English outside of business, and annual French tests for all citizens (in order to maintain their citizenship) would certainly work. :?:

You can't stop them from enjoying the english language and culture. Borders are gone when it comes to comunication of information...it simply moves faster via the english language. The world won't slow down to wait for translation to french.

[PrimoTurbo]

If there are enough people in Quebec who want to separate then they should be able to do so, however English owned property can choose if they want to stay or leave Canada or at least resell it for market price to Quebec. If the majority of people in Montreal want to stay in Canada then they should be able to do so, if not then they can join Quebec. Quebec should take a small cut in Canada’s loans, they should be able to function and I think Canada and Quebec can co-exist. Also natives in the upper north should separate if they wish, it’s their land and their choice.

[fakishan]

The world won't slow down to wait for translation to french.

Until a universal translator is invented. ;)

[manixc]

Quebec can levy the federal taxes now charged by Ottawa. That means more control of how the money is spent. Right now Ottawa takes the money out and puts it back in but with strings attached. As you can guess the priorities of the fed gov't and the prov gov't are different.

Also, no more adherence to many federal laws, the charter, etc., means Quebec can have full control over language and culture.

So more or less, it boils down to money?

[ProfessorChaos]

Now let me add into this thread...havent seen it before...I studied the referendum's in a canadian law class.

Personally, if they separatism prevails, I believe it would have a negative impact on Canada as geographically the maritime provinces are disconnected from Canada. Another issue would be borders...would it be like the US/Canada border and unguarded(used to be atleast...cough 9/11).. or would they like have a huge wall around the whole province or whatever?

Also, as a responsibility for becoming a sovereign nation, Quebec gov't should carry the burden of whatever % they contributed to the debt that Canada owes. Also, it would be complete sovereignty and not sovereignty association(so they don't take from Canada's free health care and whatever benefits being a part of Canada reeps)

As well...all the legal documents...charter of rights and freedoms...the bill of rights....convention of the rights of the child.....all nullified and they set their own laws..and aswell say bye bye to the UN.

I can continue for pages but I'll just keep it short...in the '95 Ref. the Clear Question issue was not addressed...making the vote more complicated than it should have been....the English translation of the question on the ballot: "Do you agree that Quebec should become sovereign after having made a formal offer to Canada for a new economic and political partnership within the scope of the bill respecting the future of Quebec and of the agreement signed on June 12, 1995?""

but all that was needed was... "Do you want Quebec to seperate from Canada"

I believe that the unclear question swayed the vote in the separatists favour. Also, the PQ leader, Jacques Parizeau at the time was a real ass****er...blaming the defeat on "ethnic" votes...translation...anyone that wasn't white and french(sorry if it sounds racist but thats the truth...he was being racist)

And Quebecers don't know that if they really do seperate from Canada, then will countries think of them with the Canadian reputation or just a bunch of rebels and all the agreements with Canadian trade/economic partners will be nullified. I'm guessing the economy in Quebec will greatly suffer as companies will start pulling their HQ's out because all the trade agreements with Canada will not affect the seperated Quebec.

In conclusion, I don't know what the fcuk Rene Levesque('80 Ref leader) and Jacques Parizeau('95 Ref leader) were smoking...but they are fcuking retards and I can't believe that almost 50% of Quebecers wanted to seperate...Honestly, do they think they can run a better country with just their seperate economy? I think not...all in all its a lose-lose situation for Federalists and Separatists.

[galanz]

Let 'em go. We'll keep all federal property, take away all their cush government jobs and military, keep all native lands, assign them their share of the national debt, revoke their right to use our currency, set up border crossings and make 'em get passports to enter Canada.

Then, in two years, the rest of us will have a referendum and vote NOT to let them back in.

That would be ideal, but unfortunately I'm afraid it would happen like this.
Without the propping up from the fed's their economy would crash so hard....

[galanz]

If they don't want to be part of Canada, let them go.
I have no patience for stupid, whining people who complain about being a part of the greatest country in the world.

Quebec gets preferential treatment because they whine so much, yet they still think the way they get treated is unfair.

Who gives a crap whether french is on every cereal coast to coast, does that really make a difference? I'm sick of hearing about them whine. If they want to leave, good riddance. Their economy will collapse so hard and fast they won't even have the money to drive back into Canada.

And another great post!

[Anessa]

Now let me add into this thread...havent seen it before...I studied the referendum's in a canadian law class.

Personally, if they separatism prevails, I believe it would have a negative impact on Canada as geographically the maritime provinces are disconnected from Canada. Another issue would be borders...would it be like the US/Canada border and unguarded(used to be atleast...cough 9/11).. or would they like have a huge wall around the whole province or whatever?

Also, as a responsibility for becoming a sovereign nation, Quebec gov't should carry the burden of whatever % they contributed to the debt that Canada owes. Also, it would be complete sovereignty and not sovereignty association(so they don't take from Canada's free health care and whatever benefits being a part of Canada reeps)

As well...all the legal documents...charter of rights and freedoms...the bill of rights....convention of the rights of the child.....all nullified and they set their own laws..and aswell say bye bye to the UN.

I can continue for pages but I'll just keep it short...in the '95 Ref. the Clear Question issue was not addressed...making the vote more complicated than it should have been....the English translation of the question on the ballot: "Do you agree that Quebec should become sovereign after having made a formal offer to Canada for a new economic and political partnership within the scope of the bill respecting the future of Quebec and of the agreement signed on June 12, 1995?""

but all that was needed was... "Do you want Quebec to seperate from Canada"

I believe that the unclear question swayed the vote in the separatists favour. Also, the PQ leader, Jacques Parizeau at the time was a real ass****er...blaming the defeat on "ethnic" votes...translation...anyone that wasn't white and french(sorry if it sounds racist but thats the truth...he was being racist)

And Quebecers don't know that if they really do seperate from Canada, then will countries think of them with the Canadian reputation or just a bunch of rebels and all the agreements with Canadian trade/economic partners will be nullified. I'm guessing the economy in Quebec will greatly suffer as companies will start pulling their HQ's out because all the trade agreements with Canada will not affect the seperated Quebec.

In conclusion, I don't know what the fcuk Rene Levesque('80 Ref leader) and Jacques Parizeau('95 Ref leader) were smoking...but they are fcuking retards and I can't believe that almost 50% of Quebecers wanted to seperate...Honestly, do they think they can run a better country with just their seperate economy? I think not...all in all its a lose-lose situation for Federalists and Separatists.

Thanks Professor :). Did your Canadian Law class ever mention what would happen to the federalist enclaves in Quebec? I'm just wondering

[toujours]

As for bilingualism and what not, it's a waste of money. At best, it should be limited to Quebec and not imposed on the rest of Canada. There are better ways to preserve your culture than by forcing it on others.

Since when does language = culture ?

There are French speaking Canadians outside of Quebec too, by the way (not many though, I admit...).

[toujours]

I will fight the separatists here till my dying breath. Please don't make my job harder with your idiocy.

Bravo, bien dit, well said.

[devious9191]

Since when does language = culture ?

There are French speaking Canadians outside of Quebec too, by the way (not many though, I admit...).

Quebec has been trying to preserve their 'culture' for decades. I can't think of anything other than their language that they have that is unique to them at all. Welll, and the liberal women I guess.

[AnimeEd]

The thing about the separation is that the rest of Canada is thinking Quebec's economy will die after they separate. Those Canadien might think that the rest of Canada will be laughing at them if that really happened, but guess what?
If Quebec's economy is really going to down the drain, who do you guys think will come in and buy half of Quebec?
Something I don't think anyone wants

[toujours]

The thing about the separation is that the rest of Canada is thinking Quebec's economy will die after they separate. Those Canadien might think that the rest of Canada will be laughing at them if that really happened, but guess what?
If Quebec's economy is really going to down the drain, who do you guys think will come in and buy half of Quebec?
Something I don't think anyone wants

China ?

[toujours]

Quebec has been trying to preserve their 'culture' for decades. I can't think of anything other than their language that they have that is unique to them at all. Welll, and the liberal women I guess.
Well if Quebec culture is based upon their liberal women, that's fine by me ;) ;) ;) At least that's something worth defending !!