US now bullying Taiwan to buy $10B in arms

[espeed]

So if anyone refuses to give into US demands, the US chides them?

Once again, America turns into a big bully. Just cuz they used up their money bombing Iraqis and Afghans, doesn't mean that they have the right to force other nations to cough up money so the US can do more damage around the world

http://www.dawn.com/2005/10/22/int16.htm

[Shaner]

Don't spread propoganda BS!

What you're saying is true, but you're putting a spin on it that makes it complete crap!

The US is legally bound to defend Taiwan, they have no choice. But, the US knows that China is a powerhouse and the last thing the US wants is to have to engage in a fight with China to defend Taiwan.

The US wants Taiwan to defend itself against China so that the US and China can continue improving relations between the two countries. Nobody else but the US can sell Taiwan those kinds of arms.

Russia would never sell Taiwan weapons because Russia and China are extremely close and Russia can't afford to piss of China. We sure can't provide those kinds of weapons.

The US isn't forcing them to buy weapons, but they are mad that Taiwan isn't trying to defend itself because they know that the US has to defend them.

[toalan]

Don't spread propoganda BS!

What you're saying is true, but you're putting a spin on it that makes it complete crap!

The US is legally bound to defend Taiwan, they have no choice. But, the US knows that China is a powerhouse and the last thing the US wants is to have to engage in a fight with China to defend Taiwan.

The US wants Taiwan to defend itself against China so that the US and China can continue improving relations between the two countries. Nobody else but the US can sell Taiwan those kinds of arms.

Russia would never sell Taiwan weapons because Russia and China are extremely close and Russia can't afford to piss of China. We sure can't provide those kinds of weapons.

The US isn't forcing them to buy weapons, but they are mad that Taiwan isn't trying to defend itself because they know that the US has to defend them.

The US is legally bound to defend tiawan? WTF is it in the Taiwan constitution?

The US wants to make money and not get its own soldiers killed, Just like equipping Saddam and Osama in the 80s, US is trying to fight another war using its dirty tacics. I will you what will happen, China will invade Tiawan and the americans will do sqat, 5 years later Taiwanese will bomb americans and the Americans will call all asians terrorists.

As we speak right now the US is probally training taiwan soilders and probally has sold taiwan much more than 10b in weapons, the US is probally showing taiwan how to make and use WMDs.

[philelmo]

Don't spread propoganda BS!

What you're saying is true, but you're putting a spin on it that makes it complete crap!

The US is legally bound to defend Taiwan, they have no choice. But, the US knows that China is a powerhouse and the last thing the US wants is to have to engage in a fight with China to defend Taiwan.

The US wants Taiwan to defend itself against China so that the US and China can continue improving relations between the two countries. Nobody else but the US can sell Taiwan those kinds of arms.

Russia would never sell Taiwan weapons because Russia and China are extremely close and Russia can't afford to piss of China. We sure can't provide those kinds of weapons.

The US isn't forcing them to buy weapons, but they are mad that Taiwan isn't trying to defend itself because they know that the US has to defend them.
huh, WTF too!? legally bound? crazy.. You dunno what you're talking about. It's just history that these 2 were linked in the Cultural revolution. USA didn't want communist power to rise cuz the taiwanese (chinese KMT then) were capitalists, but very corrupted!

That's were you get corruption movies like Shanghai Beach!

[ChinpokoMon]

There is currently no mutual defense treaty between U.S. and Taiwan. The United States is not legally obligated to send in its own military to defend Taiwan if it is attacked by China (whether it choose to is a different matter).

Here is a quote from an article on the Taiwan Relations Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Relations_Act):


This act also requires the United States "to provide Taiwan with arms of a defensive character", and "to maintain the capacity of the United States to resist any resort to force or other forms of coercion that would jeopardize the security, or the social or economic system, of the people on Taiwan." However, it does not necessarily require the United States to take any military action against the PRC in the event of an attack.

[Ojam]

China wont attack Taiwan, it's all political to raise support for the current government. Taiwan is a major investor in mainland china, if China was to lose that it would hurt their economy.

[MizTEcK]

^that is true, but in recent years Mainland has been making policies to provide alot of incentives for Taiwanese industries to relocate in mainland... so you never know

[GTA_]

Taiwan is a big investor in mainland and a huge asset to China. Now why on earth China should attack Taiwan, pick a fight with US and destabilize the whole region?

It does not make sense, China is simply using Taiwan as a tool for domestic policy, focusing attention outside of mainland.

[b166er1337]

Which is the bigger bully?

The one that is making money selling defensive weapons to Taiwan?

Or the one that is threatening to attck & aiming 700 missiles ?

[aquariaguy]

Which is the bigger bully?

The one that is making money selling defensive weapons to Taiwan?

Or the one that is threatening to attck & aiming 700 missiles ?

The one that is making money selling defensive weapons to Taiwan? <-- is the bigger bully. Since it had 1000 tanks ready to attack and aiming at Iraq...and guess where they are now...

[Xtahse]

it's not gonna happen
China won't attack Taiwan.

This has been going on for so long. like back in the 2000? China said they were gonna take Taiwan back. but.. uh it never happened.

It's just rumor.
China just wants Taiwan not keep saying they want indepent, which is not gonna happen..
so everyone will be happy.. live their own life

[espeed]

Don't spread propoganda BS!

What you're saying is true, but you're putting a spin on it that makes it complete crap!

The US is legally bound to defend Taiwan, they have no choice.

whoa, strong reaction dude.


The US wants Taiwan to defend itself against China so that the US and China can continue improving relations between the two countries. Nobody else but the US can sell Taiwan those kinds of arms.



BS. The US would rather allow Taiwan and China fight each other than sacrifice American soldiers. The term "improving relations" is a political term that sounds good. If the US is so concerned about improving relations, it would not send Rumsfeld to China to say that China is "hiding" military spending, or develop military relationships with Japan, India and other countries in an effort to contain China.

[gman]

Don't spread propoganda BS!

What you're saying is true, but you're putting a spin on it that makes it complete crap!

The US is legally bound to defend Taiwan, they have no choice. But, the US knows that China is a powerhouse and the last thing the US wants is to have to engage in a fight with China to defend Taiwan.

The US wants Taiwan to defend itself against China so that the US and China can continue improving relations between the two countries. Nobody else but the US can sell Taiwan those kinds of arms.

Russia would never sell Taiwan weapons because Russia and China are extremely close and Russia can't afford to piss of China. We sure can't provide those kinds of weapons.

The US isn't forcing them to buy weapons, but they are mad that Taiwan isn't trying to defend itself because they know that the US has to defend them.

Depends on how you view it, it is okay for US to tell Taiwan to protect themselves or else.

If that really is the only thing US wants, Taiwan does not have to buy it from US. Taiwan can buy that from Europe, Isreal, etc. Taiwan does not have to buy the overpriced US arm. At least, not until Taiwan asks for that.

[gman]

Which is the bigger bully?

The one that is making money selling defensive weapons to Taiwan?

Or the one that is threatening to attck & aiming 700 missiles ?

Does it matter? Or, you feel sorry for Taiwan. So, Taiwan was bullied by mainland China and now is bullied by his own buddy.

Bully China threaten the poor kid, Taiwan. Now, buddy US asks the poor kid, Taiwan has to buy his overprice Xbox. Otherwise, he is not going to protect Taiwan. No, you can't buy it from Ebay or futureshop.

[felixdd]

There is currently no mutual defense treaty between U.S. and Taiwan. The United States is not legally obligated to send in its own military to defend Taiwan if it is attacked by China (whether it choose to is a different matter).

Here is a quote from an article on the Taiwan Relations Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Relations_Act):

Yeah but hasn't the US administration made it clear to the world that if China attacks, US will side with Taiwan?

At least, that would be consistent with the American ideology of democracy. Of course, stranger things have happened while this administration is in power.

[espeed]

Bottom line: you can't trust the American government (and the blind hordes of Bush and war supporters...for some reason it seems like it's mainly the US that has this phenomenon in the world). They smile with you during good times, but during bad times they'll **** you up the ass.

[felixdd]

They smile with you during good times, but during bad times they'll **** you up the ass.

Frankly, I think that's the same with all politics :razz: Everyone's in it for themselves

[philelmo]

Yeah but hasn't the US administration made it clear to the world that if China attacks, US will side with Taiwan?

At least, that would be consistent with the American ideology of democracy. Of course, stranger things have happened while this administration is in power.
US is so busy with terrorists they won't have time for Taiwan
There won't be any war.. Hu Jin Tao is more interested in making China's economy better than worrying about warfare. If they want to, they can get Russia to side with them and attack anytime. All 3 combined have enough nukes to kill everyone in the world 300 times. Knowing this, China will not attack. Furthermore, it'll create turmoil in Hong Kong.

[gman]

Knowing this, China will not attack. Furthermore, it'll create turmoil in Hong Kong.
Why is Hong Kong a special part of the equation? It will create turmoil everywhere.

[b166er1337]

Does it matter? Or, you feel sorry for Taiwan. So, Taiwan was bullied by mainland China and now is bullied by his own buddy.

Bully China threaten the poor kid, Taiwan. Now, buddy US asks the poor kid, Taiwan has to buy his overprice Xbox. Otherwise, he is not going to protect Taiwan. No, you can't buy it from Ebay or futureshop.

You are right. The situation is pathetic. China is an ass and so are the weapons manufactors in USA.

[Badger]

Go American Patriot Missiles that attacks their own units. :razz:

[ynchu]

It's too bad the Taiwanese govenrment still refuse to realize the fact that, if there is going to be a war, there is no way they can win. Why bother spending all these money on weapons, instead of investing the money into infrastructure and education?

And let's not forget the fact - the communists took over Mainland during 1948, but nevertheless the Taiwanese government stands for the original ROC - the Republic of China - which is backed by Dr. Sun, the father of modern China.

[poedua]

Bottom line: you can't trust the American government (and the blind hordes of Bush and war supporters...for some reason it seems like it's mainly the US that has this phenomenon in the world). They smile with you during good times, but during bad times they'll **** you up the ass.

Can China be trusted ?

[poedua]

Yeah but hasn't the US administration made it clear to the world that if China attacks, US will side with Taiwan?

At least, that would be consistent with the American ideology of democracy. Of course, stranger things have happened while this administration is in power.

If China claims complete sovereignty over Taiwan - fine. But, why has China promised to use force if peaceful means fail to keep Taiwan from pursuing independence ?

If Taiwan wants independance - China should let them go let them go - just as we would if Quebec decided to leave.

If China resorts to armed conflict to subdue taiwan - how does that make Chin any ' better ' than the U.S. - i.e using force to get it's way ?

[Casanova]

US owns Taiwan just like it owns the middle-east! How else do you want to get cheap gas and cheap electronics! As for the sale of $10B, well the US economy needs a stimulant just like it needs $5B from us Canadians for softwood!

Sheesh, how slow can some ppl be!

[George W. Bush]

Don't spread propoganda BS!

What you're saying is true, but you're putting a spin on it that makes it complete crap!

The US is legally bound to defend Taiwan, they have no choice. But, the US knows that China is a powerhouse and the last thing the US wants is to have to engage in a fight with China to defend Taiwan.

The US wants Taiwan to defend itself against China so that the US and China can continue improving relations between the two countries. Nobody else but the US can sell Taiwan those kinds of arms.

Russia would never sell Taiwan weapons because Russia and China are extremely close and Russia can't afford to piss of China. We sure can't provide those kinds of weapons.

The US isn't forcing them to buy weapons, but they are mad that Taiwan isn't trying to defend itself because they know that the US has to defend them.

LOL - legally bound? Nobody but US can sell to Taiwan? LOL - no one else really wants to sell to Taiwan, knowing that if they do, they lose the bigger $$$ they could gain by selling to China... :)

US just pressured Israel to stop selling F-16s to Venezuela, so that US firms can do it instead...

The Chinese will not attack Taiwan. Why bomb their own province anyways? Chinese commando's may storm the government and replace it with their own appointed government, and voila - all done - not a single bullet fired.

That is the way the US has done with other independent countries. But China - has the right to replace Taiwan's "government" since Tainwan is not a independent country - it is a province that in time has turned a little rouge and has had too much American interference there.

It is like Quebec being considered independent, and France goint to war with the rest of Canada...

[poedua]

The Chinese will not attack Taiwan. Why bomb their own province anyways? Chinese commando's may storm the government and replace it with their own appointed government, and voila - all done - not a single bullet fired.

That is the way the US has done with other independent countries. But China - has the right to replace Taiwan's "government" since Tainwan is not a independent country - it is a province that in time has turned a little rouge and has had too much American interference there.

It is like Quebec being considered independent, and France goint to war with the rest of Canada...


" may storm the government and replace it " ???

" China - has the right to replace Taiwan's "government" ????

That's democracy ?

Why doesn't China just let Taiwan decide it's own future ? I don't get it, what's the ' downside ' by having China let Taiwan go and be independant ?

Are you saying using force by China to protect sovereign interests - as the U.S. does - is an acceptable way to reslolsve conflict ? How does think make the Chinese any better than the U.S. ?

[gman]

If Taiwan wants independance - China should let them go let them go - just as we would if Quebec decided to leave.

Where do you get this idea? Do you really believe the Quebec seperation will be decided by the poeple in Quebec alone?

[gman]

If China resorts to armed conflict to subdue taiwan - how does that make Chin any ' better ' than the U.S. - i.e using force to get it's way ?

If Texas declair seperation, I can ensure you US will use her force much faster than anybody. Who said China is better than US?

[poedua]

Where do you get this idea? Do you really believe the Quebec seperation will be decided by the poeple in Quebec alone?

If Quebec wants to leave ( i.e by a majority of popular vote ) - or the West for that matter - let them go - what right does any government have, to use ' armed force ' to force them to stay ?

Yes - if Quebec leaves - I believe that the will of the Quebec population will play a major role in leading to that decision.

[poedua]

If Texas declair seperation, I can ensure you US will use her force much faster than anybody. Who said China is better than US?

If China uses force - they are NO BETTER than the U.S.

If Texas wants to leave and the FEDS use armed forces to keep them, the FEDS are at fault as well.

Why not let Texas go if the majority of state wants it ?

[gman]

If Quebec wants to leave ( i.e by a majority of popular vote ) - or the West for that matter - let them go - what right does any government have, to use ' armed force ' to force them to stay ?

Yes - if Quebec leaves - I believe that the will of the Quebec population will play a major role in leading to that decision.

You want to let them go is one thing. Canada let them go is another. Canada probably will not use 'armed force' because frankly, even if they want to, there is none. Yes, Quebec population will play a major role but it does not mean they will be seperated just because they say so.

Taiwan population will play a major role in their independent movement too. The only difference is 'armed force'. Again, Canada has next to none.

[gman]

If China uses force - they are NO BETTER than the U.S.

If Texas wants to leave and the FEDS use armed forces to keep them, the FEDS are at fault as well.

Why not let Texas go if the majority of state wants it ?

Since when, China is better than US?
Can I start the independent of Markham? ;)

[poedua]

Since when, China is better than US?
Can I start the independent of Markham? ;)

lets' see, mindful of the weaknesses inherent in both political ideologies.....

China - dictatorship

U.S. - democracy


On that basis , I'd say the U.S. is better - but IMHO i think anyone would opt for any democracy over a dictatorship - I'm sure you'd agree.

[mingming]

Why do some people think it's OK for TW and Quebec to want to be independant. The US is against TW being independant, even thought they will protect TW if China strikes.

What if your kid no longer wants to be part of your family? You wont take measures to ensure that they dont?

[poedua]

Why do some people think it's OK for TW and Quebec to want to be independant. The US is against TW being independant, even thought they will protect TW if China strikes.

What if your kid no longer wants to be part of your family? You wont take measures to ensure that they dont?

O.K.....What is the rationale for ' forcing' someone ( family / Taiwan ) and not allowing them ' freedom' to lerave if they want it ?

Why stop them ? What reasons ?

[gman]

Why do some people think it's OK for TW and Quebec to want to be independant. The US is against TW being independant, even thought they will protect TW if China strikes.

What if your kid no longer wants to be part of your family? You wont take measures to ensure that they dont?

O.K.....What is the rationale for ' forcing' someone ( family / Taiwan ) and not allowing them ' freedom' to lerave if they want it ?

Why stop them ? What reasons ?

I think a better example is if your arm wants to leave, will you let it?

[mingming]

Then why would China want HK back? Macau?

The KMT lost the civil war and retreated to TW, a Chinese province. They've been settled on Chinese land for the past 60 years. Your enemy, taking up your land, and want to have it as their own without incident?

[gman]

Again, can I start the independent of Markham?

[siriuskao]

Don't spread propoganda BS!

What you're saying is true, but you're putting a spin on it that makes it complete crap!

The US is legally bound to defend Taiwan, they have no choice. But, the US knows that China is a powerhouse and the last thing the US wants is to have to engage in a fight with China to defend Taiwan.

The US wants Taiwan to defend itself against China so that the US and China can continue improving relations between the two countries. Nobody else but the US can sell Taiwan those kinds of arms.

Russia would never sell Taiwan weapons because Russia and China are extremely close and Russia can't afford to piss of China. We sure can't provide those kinds of weapons.

The US isn't forcing them to buy weapons, but they are mad that Taiwan isn't trying to defend itself because they know that the US has to defend them.

this is the biggest BS on RFD, period.

USA need fund for their little war in IRAQ, so they are trying to squeeze some $$$ from TW.

USA will never risk their economic relationshop/man with China over Taiwan.

[poedua]

[QUOTE=poedua]

I think a better example is if your arm wants to leave, will you let it?

How is an ' arm ' a better example ?

[b166er1337]

[QUOTE=poedua]

I think a better example is if your arm wants to leave, will you let it?

Gman, please don't be a hypocrite. I am sure you are a smart guy, but your argument is very weak. Arm is an intergal part of the body. Taiwan, on the other hand, has only been occupied by China's Qing dynasty for 200 years. Netherland, Spain and Japan had ruled Taiwan before & after the Qing's rule, is it ok for these countries to make claim as well? Out of 5000 years of the Chinese history, frankly, i think 200 years doean't mean a whole lot.

Why do some people think it's OK for TW and Quebec to want to be independant. The US is against TW being independant, even thought they will protect TW if China strikes.

What if your kid no longer wants to be part of your family? You wont take measures to ensure that they dont?

First of all, Taiwan's naitonal name is Republic of China. It is not an intergal part of People's Republic of China. THEY DONT BELONG TO EACH OTHER. Since its establishment in 1949, Taiwan has never been a province of People's Republic of China. Mingming, you sound like Taiwan is a renege son of this Chinese family. It's not true. Yes, they are related but they are on equal terms. A better correlation between Taiwan & China is two brothers who are not superior to one another but the big fat ass brother wants to take over the younger brother's property.

Again, can I start the independent of Markham?
Again, Markham has been part of Canada since it's formed. Taiwan has never been part of People's Reupublic of China in the first place.

If Taiwanese decided (unlikely, since there is no point) to change the national name to Republic of Taiwain, it's still none of People's Republic of China's business. The only government who has a say of the issue is the Republic of China.

One thing about Chinese is that they are educated in thinking Taiwan belongs to them. Well, i don't blame them. Humans have believed that earth is the centre of the universe, that the earth is flat and that evolution is a hipocrisy. Anyway, i can't wait for eelfliw to jump in and copy & paste his previous posts regarding this issue. :lol:

[mingming]

Anyway, i can't wait for eelfliw to jump in and copy & paste his previous posts regarding this issue.

So has peodua.

[poedua]

[QUOTE=gman]

Gman, please don't be a hypocrite. I am sure you are a smart guy, but your argument is very weak. Arm is an intergal part of the body. Taiwan, on the other hand, has only been occupied by China's Qing dynasty for 200 years. Netherland, Spain and Japan had ruled Taiwan before & after the Qing's rule, is it ok for these countries to make claim as well? Out of 5000 years of the Chinese history, frankly, i think 200 years doean't mean a whole lot.



First of all, Taiwan's naitonal name is Republic of China. It is not an intergal part of People's Republic of China. THEY DONT BELONG TO EACH OTHER. Since its establishment in 1949, Taiwan has never been a province of People's Republic of China. Mingming, you sound like Taiwan is a renege son of this Chinese family. It's not true. Yes, they are related but they are on equal terms. A better correlation between Taiwan & China is two brothers who are not superior to one another but the big fat ass brother wants to take over the younger brother's property.


Again, Markham has been part of Canada since it's formed. Taiwan has never been part of People's Reupublic of China in the first place.

If Taiwanese decided (unlikely, since there is no point) to change the national name to Republic of Taiwain, it's still none of People's Republic of China's business. The only government who has a say of the issue is the Republic of China.
One thing about Chinese is that they are educated in thinking Taiwan belongs to them. Well, i don't blame them. Humans have believed that earth is the centre of the universe, that the earth is flat and that evolution is a hipocrisy. Anyway, i can't wait for eelfliw to jump in and copy & paste his previous posts regarding this issue. :lol:

Some good points.

Very good argument for the 'reasonableness ' of a desire for independance and the ' folly ' of trying to prevent it.

How can the desire for independance be a bad thing after all ?

Good post.

[mingming]

Out of 5000 years of the Chinese history, frankly, i think 200 years doean't mean a whole lot.

200 years is longer than Canada has been around. If a party wins a civil war, does it not mean you have defeated the other party over the entire country??? China as a whole, included TW before 1949.

In Canada, Paul Martin won the election, can Stephen Harper run off to Newfoundland and call it... "Canada of Harper" and run his own version of government, then ask to become independent???

[poedua]

200 years is longer than Canada has been around. If a party wins a civil war, does it not mean you have defeated the other party over the entire country??? China as a whole, included TW before 1949.

In Canada, Paul Martin won the election, can Stephen Harper run off to Newfoundland and call it... "Canada of Harper" and run his own version of government, then ask to become independent???

if the majority of the Newfoundland wants to be independant, why prevent them ? let 'em go !

What is the reason China is so ' hell bent ' on keeping it's grip on Taiwan ?

Let them go if they want - what's the downside for China - i don't get it ?

Why does China ' need ' Taiwan so badly ?

[gman]

Gman, please don't be a hypocrite. I am sure you are a smart guy, but your argument is very weak. Arm is an intergal part of the body. Taiwan, on the other hand, has only been occupied by China's Qing dynasty for 200 years. Netherland, Spain and Japan had ruled Taiwan before & after the Qing's rule, is it ok for these countries to make claim as well? Out of 5000 years of the Chinese history, frankly, i think 200 years doean't mean a whole lot.


It does not matter how you see it. It is how people in mainland china see it that matters. They consider Taiwan island as part of the body. That's why they don't want it to go away. If they consider it as an arm of a body, will they let it go?
Will you let it go if you have the same feeling?

Netherland, Spain and Japan can all claim it if they had left enough people to live there since then. People living in Taiwan is still called Chinese, at least, majority of them are.

[manixc]

if the majority of the Newfoundland wants to be independant, why prevent them ? let 'em go !

What is the reason China is so ' hell bent ' on keeping it's grip on Taiwan ?

Let them go if they want - what's the downside for China - i don't get it ?

Why does China ' need ' Taiwan so badly ?

It's respect!

[mingming]

if the majority of the Newfoundland wants to be independant, why prevent them ? let 'em go !

What is the reason China is so ' hell bent ' on keeping it's grip on Taiwan ?

Let them go if they want - what's the downside for China - i don't get it ?

Why does China ' need ' Taiwan so badly ?

So if any city/province/town/village in Canada wants to become independent, then Canada should with open arms allow them. What would that say about our country? That Canada is someone who just lets people become independent as they wish?

Heck I should gather a town of people and demand to become independent, call my country.. "Republic of MingMing!!!"

[poedua]

It's respect!

You'll have to elaborate...I have no idea what you mean by that ...the post was...

if the majority of the Newfoundland wants to be independant, why prevent them ? let 'em go !

What is the reason China is so ' hell bent ' on keeping it's grip on Taiwan ?

Let them go if they want - what's the downside for China - i don't get it ?

Why does China ' need ' Taiwan so badly ?

Are you saying Taiwan can't be independant because they don't ' respect ' China ?

Is that it ? What does that have to do with anything ?

[gman]

Again, Markham has been part of Canada since it's formed. Taiwan has never been part of People's Reupublic of China in the first place.

If Taiwanese decided (unlikely, since there is no point) to change the national name to Republic of Taiwain, it's still none of People's Republic of China's business. The only government who has a say of the issue is the Republic of China.

One thing about Chinese is that they are educated in thinking Taiwan belongs to them. Well, i don't blame them. Humans have believed that earth is the centre of the universe, that the earth is flat and that evolution is a hipocrisy. Anyway, i can't wait for eelfliw to jump in and copy & paste his previous posts regarding this issue. :lol:

Again, I said it many times. Taiwan does not have to belong to People's Reupublic of China. It belongs to China. It does not matter which government. I have no problem Republic of China rules both mainland and Taiwan. I have no problem if there is a new government named "United China" to rule mainland and Taiwan. It does not matter to me how as long as it is in one piece (including both side claim they are the ruler of China) because I consider Taiwan Island as an arm of the whole China body.

[Ojam]

if the majority of the Newfoundland wants to be independant, why prevent them ? let 'em go !

What is the reason China is so ' hell bent ' on keeping it's grip on Taiwan ?

Let them go if they want - what's the downside for China - i don't get it ?

Why does China ' need ' Taiwan so badly ?

They don't need Taiwan. It's a political move, they drum up patriotism along the lines that they "need" to re-unite all off China under a great flag, and that they are bringing together families and the people buy it. The only problem now is that they have run into the same problem that France ran into after WW1, they have drummed up so much support for it, that they are now backed into a corner, they can't just say "well maybe it's ok for them to stay independent, I mean really what do they have?" just as the French couldn't go back on calling the Germans Baby eaters in WW1 and then just let them off once WW1 was over, they had called them baby eaters all through the war, so once it was over if they just let them off they would lose face. They were backed into a political corner. You do nothing you're called on it and lose face, they do something, which they really don't want to, and it destabilizes the region and is WW2 all over again.

[gman]

They don't need Taiwan. It's a political move, they drum up patriotism along the lines that they "need" to re-unite all off China under a great flag, and that they are bringing together families and the people buy it. The only problem now is that they have run into the same problem that France ran into after WW1, they have drummed up so much support for it, that they are now backed into a corner, they can't just say "well maybe it's ok for them to stay independent, I mean really what do they have?" just as the French couldn't go back on calling the Germans Baby eaters in WW1 and then just let them off once WW1 was over, they had called them baby eaters all through the war, so once it was over if they just let them off they would lose face. They were backed into a political corner. You do nothing you're called on it and lose face, they do something, which they really don't want to, and it destabilizes the region and is WW2 all over again.

It is more than political move. It is the culture and it has nothing to do with Red China. When I was young living in Hong Kong, everybody hate red China. Everybody loved KMT. That was the environment (UK and KMT were allies). However, there was a thing most Chinese in Hong Kong believed. China must be in one piece because we considered that really as part of the body.

[poedua]

So if any city/province/town/village in Canada wants to become independent, then Canada should with open arms allow them. What would that say about our country? That Canada is someone who just lets people become independent as they wish?

Heck I should gather a town of people and demand to become independent, call my country.. "Republic of MingMing!!!"

If a ' city/province/town/village ' can sustain themselves as a soveriegn nation somehow ....let them go for it !

Again, what is the rationale for saying ' NO - you can't leave ' ?

You may not lioke the fact they're leaving but that's not a basis for saying NO.

I can only assume China would somehow ' crumble ' in some way if they didn't have Taiwan, otherwise why would China care either way ?

Kind of interseting how a small place like Taiwan has China so paranoid and pre - occupied with them.

[poedua]

They don't need Taiwan. It's a political move, they drum up patriotism along the lines that they "need" to re-unite all off China under a great flag, and that they are bringing together families and the people buy it. The only problem now is that they have run into the same problem that France ran into after WW1, they have drummed up so much support for it, that they are now backed into a corner, they can't just say "well maybe it's ok for them to stay independent, I mean really what do they have?" just as the French couldn't go back on calling the Germans Baby eaters in WW1 and then just let them off once WW1 was over, they had called them baby eaters all through the war, so once it was over if they just let them off they would lose face. They were backed into a political corner. You do nothing you're called on it and lose face, they do something, which they really don't want to, and it destabilizes the region and is WW2 all over again.

Good points.

That puts it all in a much better perspective ...Thanks

[mingming]

It is more than political move. It is the culture and it has nothing to do with Red China. When I was young living in Hong Kong, everybody hate red China. Everybody loved KMT. That was the environment (UK and KMT were allies). However, there was a thing most Chinese in Hong Kong believed. China must be in one piece because we considered that really as part of the body.

Yes, when I was living in HK, we we were really happy with British rule. We did have concerns about the 97 takeover and that was the reason why we immigrated to Canada. But are we in favour of China taking back HK? Definently. When I'm asked what nationality I am, I dont say Hong Kong. I always tell them, I'm Chinese, no one calls themselves "HongKongese"

[poedua]

Again, I said it many times. Taiwan does not have to belong to People's Reupublic of China. It belongs to China. It does not matter which government. I have no problem Republic of China rules both mainland and Taiwan. I have no problem if there is a new government named "United China" to rule mainland and Taiwan. It does not matter to me how as long as it is in one piece (including both side claim they are the ruler of China) because I consider Taiwan Island as an arm of the whole China body.

But Tawian doesn't....and in the end...it's what Taiwan wants for itself that really only matters.

[mingming]

If a ' city/province/town/village ' can sustain themselves as a soveriegn nation somehow ....let them go for it !

Again, what is the rationale for saying ' NO - you can't leave ' ?

You may not lioke the fact they're leaving but that's not a basis for saying NO.

I can only assume China would somehow ' crumble ' in some way if they didn't have Taiwan, otherwise why would China care either way ?

Kind of interseting how a small place like Taiwan has China so paranoid and pre - occupied with them.

So whats the point of Canada existing if they can allow anyone to become independent???

[Bzji]

if the majority of the Newfoundland wants to be independant, why prevent them ? let 'em go !

What is the reason China is so ' hell bent ' on keeping it's grip on Taiwan ?

Let them go if they want - what's the downside for China - i don't get it ?

Why does China ' need ' Taiwan so badly ?

You are very short sighted. Letting one piece of your territory just do whatever they want will eventually break up the entire country. If Chinese government let Taiwan do whatever they want, what's stopping HK or Macau from breaking off the country. Then who knows, move inland and each province would start breaking off the country just because someone else can do it. Within 50 yrs, there won't even a be China anymore. You have to remember, sometimes leader of a group of ppl has their own agenda and they would use the voice of the mass to achieve something they want for themselves. I mean, what sounds better to Chen Shui-bian, being president of a newly formed democratic country or being a Special territory administrator? Its pretty obvious he wants to be called a legitimate president and have all the privileges and rights that any other president/prime minister in this world shares. The prestige and honour is too great for him to pass up. And if you know anything about Chinese ppl, prestige and honour is highly regarded. But its obvious from your previous post that you have no interest in the Chinese culture or their way of thinking. So I'll give you a more familiar example. If Quebec where to separate, there would be new borders. New tax, new tariff, etc..etc...Then Alberta wakes up one day and realize they have all the oil in Canada and want to keep it all for themselves so they can benefit from the high profit in exporting it. They break off. Then British Columbia realizes being Canada's portal to Asia, they can pretty much be their own country. Then Ontario realizes they have like 60% of Canada's population, and they have the most economic activity, they then break off into another country. Sooner or later, Canada as we know it wouldn't exist anymore. Sure you can say that this most probably wouldn't happen. But can you absolutely guarantee it? Its like if one of your kid stole a candy bar from a store, if you don't make an example of that one kid and punish him, all your other kids would think its ok and go on a 5-finger discount spree.

[manixc]

You'll have to elaborate...I have no idea what you mean by that ...the post was...

if the majority of the Newfoundland wants to be independent, why prevent them ? let 'em go !

What is the reason China is so ' hell bent ' on keeping it's grip on Taiwan ?

Let them go if they want - what's the downside for China - i don't get it ?

Why does China ' need ' Taiwan so badly ?

Are you saying Taiwan can't be independent because they don't ' respect ' China ?

Is that it ? What does that have to do with anything ?

oh, well....

At the end of the civil war (roughly 60 years ago), the ROC retreated to Taiwan, vowing that they will return and reclaim the mainland. The same goes for the PRC, they vow that they will cross the strait and defeat the ROC, thus making China whole. At that time, both sides did not have the means to do what they said.

Fast forward to present, I think somewhere along the line, ROC/Taiwan just wants to be independent or at least not bother with the mainland. As for PRC/China, they have the means to retake Taiwan but due to various reason (the US, closer economy ties with Taiwan, etc), they can't just invade Taiwan. But they can't let Taiwan be independent, because doing that means they can't keep their promise, thus lose respect.

It's complicated but respect(aka face) is important to Chinese.

[poedua]

You are very short sighted. Letting one piece of your territory just do whatever they want will eventually break up the entire country. If Chinese government let Taiwan do whatever they want, what's stopping HK or Macau from breaking off the country. Then who knows, move inland and each province would start breaking off the country just because someone else can do it. Within 50 yrs, there won't even a be China anymore. You have to remember, sometimes leader of a group of ppl has their own agenda and they would use the voice of the mass to achieve something they want for themselves. I mean, what sounds better to Chen Shui-bian, being president of a newly formed democratic country or being a Special territory administrator? Its pretty obvious he wants to be called a legitimate president and have all the privileges and rights that any other president/prime minister in this world shares. The prestige and honour is too great for him to pass up. And if you know anything about Chinese ppl, prestige and honour is highly regarded. But its obvious from your previous post that you have no interest in the Chinese culture or their way of thinking. So I'll give you a more familiar example. If Quebec where to separate, there would be new borders. New tax, new tariff, etc..etc...Then Alberta wakes up one day and realize they have all the oil in Canada and want to keep it all for themselves so they can benefit from the high profit in exporting it. They break off. Then British Columbia realizes being Canada's portal to Asia, they can pretty much be their own country. Then Ontario realizes they have like 60% of Canada's population, and they have the most economic activity, they then break off into another country. Sooner or later, Canada as we know it wouldn't exist anymore. Sure you can say that this most probably wouldn't happen. But can you absolutely guarantee it? Its like if one of your kid stole a candy bar from a store, if you don't make an example of that one kid and punish him, all your other kids would think its ok and go on a 5-finger discount spree.

" If Chinese government let Taiwan do whatever they want, what's stopping HK or Macau from breaking off the country. Then who knows, move inland and each province would start breaking off the country just because someone else can do it. Within 50 yrs, there won't even a be China anymore."

if everyone wants ' out ' of China - what does that tell you ?

maybe living under a communist dictorship isn't for everybody- AND - they'd like to live differently i.e the ability/ freedom to vote for their own government

What's wrong with that ?

[poedua]

So whats the point of Canada existing if they can allow anyone to become independent???

If people want to leave canada - then canada has some measure of accountability ....'why' is leaving Canada more attractive than staying ? - if they want to leave, why ' force ' them to stay ?

What kind of country do you have if everyone ' wants out ' ?

What's the point in holding it together by ' force ' ? Then what .

[mingming]

" If Chinese government let Taiwan do whatever they want, what's stopping HK or Macau from breaking off the country. Then who knows, move inland and each province would start breaking off the country just because someone else can do it. Within 50 yrs, there won't even a be China anymore."

if everyone wants ' out ' of China - what does that tell you ?

maybe living under a communist dictorship isn't for everybody- AND - they'd like to live differently i.e the ability/ freedom to vote for their own government

What's wrong with that ?


Here you go again. Bzji was only giving an example. First of all, only TW has wanted to become independent. In Canada, only Quebec wants to be independent.

Bzji also gave an example if every province in Canada wants to sepearate. So you really dont care that the lovely democratic capitalist country called Canada will no longer exist?

What if you allow your son to leave the house, then becuase your son is allowed to leave, your daughter wants to leave as well. Doesnt that tarnish your reputation as a father?

Chinese people pride on their face, it's been part of CHinese culture for thousands of years. Canada on the other hand, has almost no culture, we are so diverse that we simply dont care. How can you judge what the CHinese people are thinking and whats right for them if you dont even care for your own country??? At first you always say you love Canada, but you dont care if provinces want the seperate. If we allowed every province to become their own, wouldnt your Canada be gone?

[Bzji]

" If Chinese government let Taiwan do whatever they want, what's stopping HK or Macau from breaking off the country. Then who knows, move inland and each province would start breaking off the country just because someone else can do it. Within 50 yrs, there won't even a be China anymore."

if everyone wants ' out ' of China - what does that tell you ?

maybe living under a communist dictorship isn't for everybody- AND - they'd like to live differently i.e the ability/ freedom to vote for their own government

What's wrong with that ?

But can you say that Chen Shui-bian doesn't have his own agenda and loves having the title "President", and he's just prompting hatred towards the Mainland so he can use the people's voice to get himself there?
Also, Taiwan has been promised even more freedom and rights than Hong Kong if it were to reunit.
Plus, have you ever seen Taiwanese parliament on tv? Fight and bicker like a bunch of street thugs. Is that sort of a behaviour for a government?
Obviously you didn't know any of those things I just mentioned above. I've been reading your other posts and your lack of knowledge on this matter is really showing. All you can ever bring to the table as an argument is a combination of the words "Communist Dictatorship China".

[wiggy]

Yes, when I was living in HK, we we were really happy with British rule. We did have concerns about the 97 takeover and that was the reason why we immigrated to Canada. But are we in favour of China taking back HK? Definently.

Interesting. Your mouth says one thing and your feet say something else. You're not coming across as particularly credible. Your position is good for everyone else but not for you. Shallow.

[gman]

Interesting. Your mouth says one thing and your feet say something else. You're not coming across as particularly credible. Your position is good for everyone else but not for you. Shallow.

No, he did not.

He does not like red China. That does not mean he does not want China in one piece.

[mingming]

Interesting. Your mouth says one thing and your feet say something else. You're not coming across as particularly credible. Your position is good for everyone else but not for you. Shallow.

Yes we were not particularly fond of the "government" AT THAT TIME, but as far as China is concerned, we always wanted a united China.

[wiggy]

No, he did not.

He does not like red China. That does not mean he does not want China in one piece.
But wouldn't that be premature? China is not that far removed in time from the Cultural Revolution and Tianamen Square and regular shelling of Taiwan from the mainland. The government is still communist and non-representative of the people. I wouldn't want to live under that type of regime for the sake of the concept of "national unity". There needs to be some evolution.

In the current context I can understand the people of Taiwan wanting to keep China at arms length.

[mingming]

But wouldn't that be premature? China is not that far removed in time from the Cultural Revolution and Tianamen Square. The government is still communist and non-representative of the people. I wouldn't want to live under that type of regime for the sake of the concept of "national unity". The needs to be some evolution.

I might not like how the government handled things in China in the past, but I cant excuse the fact that I am Chinese and from that country. Then why are so many Iraqis dying to go back to Iraq after immigrating to Canada. They left because of the Saddam regime, but still have the love and compassion for their home.

[poedua]

But can you say that Chen Shui-bian doesn't have his own agenda and loves having the title "President", and he's just prompting hatred towards the Mainland so he can use the people's voice to get himself there?
Also, Taiwan has been promised even more freedom and rights than Hong Kong if it were to reunit. ".

All politicians have agendas - so what ?

If the people support him...let them go ...why not ?

Maybe Taiwan dosen't believe China's promises.

Plus, have you ever seen Taiwanese parliament on tv? Fight and bicker like a bunch of street thugs. Is that sort of a behaviour for a government?".

Boorish parliamentary behavior is seen in London, Otttawa and Queen's Park - irrelevant

Obviously you didn't know any of those things I just mentioned above. I've been reading your other posts and your lack of knowledge on this matter is really showing.?".

Obviously - I never claimed to be an expert in this area - the Chinese logic escapes me - but the posts by b166er1337 and Ojam provided some useful insights.

All you can ever bring to the table as an argument is a combination of the words "Communist Dictatorship China".

I can't begin to tell you how utterly crushed I am that you don't find my arguments to your liking.

As for "Communist Dictatorship China" ..it's no different than calling the U.S a
' Capitalist Democrary ' AND ' Communist & Dictatorship ' is a description China uses to descibe itself in it's own Consitution - what's so bad about that ?

[mingming]

But wouldn't that be premature? China is not that far removed in time from the Cultural Revolution and Tianamen Square and regular shelling of Taiwan from the mainland. The government is still communist and non-representative of the people. I wouldn't want to live under that type of regime for the sake of the concept of "national unity". There needs to be some evolution.

In the current context I can understand the people of Taiwan wanting to keep China at arms length.

I've told this to peodua many times. You seem to be very ignorant on your views about current CHina. Yes, those events took place not too long ago, but have you really gone there to take a look? Based on your posts, you dont seem to be someone that has seen China for yourself, and the way of life in China today.

[poedua]

But wouldn't that be premature? China is not that far removed in time from the Cultural Revolution and Tianamen Square and regular shelling of Taiwan from the mainland. The government is still communist and non-representative of the people. I wouldn't want to live under that type of regime for the sake of the concept of "national unity". There needs to be some evolution.

In the current context I can understand the people of Taiwan wanting to keep China at arms length.

Well said

[gman]

But wouldn't that be premature? China is not that far removed in time from the Cultural Revolution and Tianamen Square and regular shelling of Taiwan from the mainland. The government is still communist and non-representative of the people. I wouldn't want to live under that type of regime for the sake of the concept of "national unity". There needs to be some evolution.

In the current context I can understand the people of Taiwan wanting to keep China at arms length.

Premature about what?
If you mean it is premature about getting Hong Kong back to China, there is no choice because the lease to UK ended in 1997.
If you mean it is premature to bring China in one piece, I don't have a time table when it should happen. I can live with the chance that one day it will happen. Not necessary my life time.

Nobody wants to live under communist if there is a choice. Bringing China into one piece does not mean you have to live under communist. Bringing China into one piece does not have to happen today, tomorrow, 10 years later or 100 years later.

[IceMan77]

If people want to leave canada - then canada has some measure of accountability ....'why' is leaving Canada more attractive than staying ? - if they want to leave, why ' force ' them to stay ?

What kind of country do you have if everyone ' wants out ' ?

What's the point in holding it together by ' force ' ? Then what .

Quebec has been wanting to leave Canada for some time. What kind of a country is Canada if Quebec wants out? In the West, I'm sure Alberta and BC wouldn't hesitate for a second to split off either if they could. And this is Canada, a free and democratic society. This just goes to show ppl are going to complain and threaten to leave all the time. You can't satisfy everyone.

[Bzji]

All politicians have agendas - so what ?
If the people support him...let them go ...why not ?
Maybe Taiwan dosen't believe China's promises.

Hmm..so what? Hitler had an agenda too....If he can PERSUADE the German people into Jew hating soldiers, let them go. why not?


Boorish parliamentary behavior is seen in London, Otttawa and Queen's Park - irrelevant

Ok, these people beat each other senseless to a point where they have to be sent to the hospital for stitches. How old are you? I can't believe scenes of government officials beating each other senseless when they can't win a argument is irrelevant to you. Remind me to NEVER have a face to face argument with you. Probably beat me to a bloody pulp after you get tired of saying "Communist Dictatorship China"



Obviously - I never claimed to be an expert in this area - the Chinese logic escapes me - but the posts by b166er1337 and Ojam provided some useful insights.

Both mingming and I have said we were in China. Why is it that you don't find our views insightful? Or are you still listening to what you want to listen to. Selective hearing.



I can't begin to tell you how utterly crushed I am that you don't find my arguments to your liking.
As for "Communist Dictatorship China" ..it's no different than calling the U.S a
' Capitalist Democrary ' AND ' Communist & Dictatorship ' is a description China uses to descibe itself in it's own Consitution - what's so bad about that ?

I'm not here to debate your or the Chinese Constitution use of words. But telling you that if you want to continue debating on this subject with us, give more insightful and new arguments. If I wanted to see the words "Communist Dictatorship China" used over and over again, I go read Epoch Times.

[poedua]

I've told this to peodua many times. You seem to be very ignorant on your views about current CHina. Yes, those events took place not too long ago, but have you really gone there to take a look? Based on your posts, you dont seem to be someone that has seen China for yourself, and the way of life in China today.

Is China a dictatorship ?

Yes or No ?

I don't have to visit there to get ' educated ' on how wonderful communism is or how a ' democratic dictatorship ' isn't an oxymoron and how it is so great to live under.

Without the right to vote - there is no freedom or hope for change - but, that's just my personal opinion. Others will isagree.

Visitng a wonderful gided cage doesn't change the fact it's a cage - and visiting to see the wonders of communism and a ' democratic dictatorship ' doesn't change the fact there is no freedom to vote - which is a poltical cage IMHO. So, you see, visiting would accomplish abosutley nothing for me.

So, to be clear, while I don't care for the government run by dicatorship- I think the Chinese poeple themselves are great - as is the culture formed over the centuries.

[mingming]

I know I've posted this before on the locked thread, but I'm not sure you all caught it before it got locked. So sorry for repeating myself.

When I was in Shanghai this summer, I noticed a lot of white people living there, either from US or Europe.

Now if they believed everything they learned about China from facts and history just as peodua has, would they have gone there to live and work? I'm sure their pay is substantial enough for them to make the decision to move from the US to China, but you did once say you wouldnt go there even if you were paid. I know eveyrone may be different, but there ARE people from US, Canada, Europe that have moved to China and settled there and find no problems and dont feel they are being restricted by the Communist government. Most of them realize when they move there that the only major differnece they see is the people, and the culture, which is the case when we visit ANY foreign country.

I also once saw a TV special about a white person from the US who moved to China for business. He has been in Beijing for several years and his whole family is there with him as well. When asked if he would ever go back to the US, his answer was NO. He enjoyed his time in China so much and has been so taken in by the culture, the people, and the country, that he rather live out his life in China and raise his family. I mean if there are actual foreign people wanting and rather to be living in China than returning home, it is prime example that for people to really know about CHina, they have to see it for themselves.

Some people are too caught up with CHina being "communist" "dictatorship" based on history, definitions, and news that they turn a blind eye and not realize how much differnet China really is compared to their own impressions of the country.

[poedua]

I'm not here to debate your or the Chinese Constitution use of words. But telling you that if you want to continue debating on this subject with us, give more insightful and new arguments. If I wanted to see the words "Communist Dictatorship China" used over and over again, I go read Epoch Times.

Perhaps you can tell me why you seem to find ' Communist Dictatorship China ' so irritating and / or disturbing - those terms aren't innflammatory in any way. It's taken directly out of the text of the Chinese Constitution - it's simply a fact...nothing more.

Call Canada a socialist democracy....just another fact - see if i care...again, it's not innflammatory in any way.

Also, thank God for the Epoch Times - glad you brought it up! It's the only paper reporting with a major interest in freedoms and interest in human rights issues in China - their Nine Commentaries on the Communist Partyprovide some compelling views on the shortcomings of communism and human rights in China.

On the topic of freedom in China - don't you find it disturbing that the Chinese government, in June 2004, had Microsoft agree to ban the word “democracy” from parts of its MSN website in China ?

[poedua]

I know I've posted this before on the locked thread, but I'm not sure you all caught it before it got locked. So sorry for repeating myself.

When I was in Shanghai this summer, I noticed a lot of white people living there, either from US or Europe.

Now if they believed everything they learned about China from facts and history just as peodua has, would they have gone there to live and work? I'm sure their pay is substantial enough for them to make the decision to move from the US to China, but you did once say you wouldnt go there even if you were paid. I know eveyrone may be different, but there ARE people from US, Canada, Europe that have moved to China and settled there and find no problems and dont feel they are being restricted by the Communist government. Most of them realize when they move there that the only major differnece they see is the people, and the culture, which is the case when we visit ANY foreign country.

I also once saw a TV special about a white person from the US who moved to China for business. He has been in Beijing for several years and his whole family is there with him as well. When asked if he would ever go back to the US, his answer was NO. He enjoyed his time in China so much and has been so taken in by the culture, the people, and the country, that he rather live out his life in China and raise his family. I mean if there are actual foreign people wanting and rather to be living in China than returning home, it is prime example that for people to really know about CHina, they have to see it for themselves.

Some people are too caught up with CHina being "communist" "dictatorship" based on history, definitions, and news that they turn a blind eye and not realize how much differnet China really is compared to their own impressions of the country.

But Chinese don't have the freedom to vote ...isn't that important ?

[mingming]

But Chinese don't have the freedom to vote ...isn't that important ?

To them it's not, to you it is. Again emphasizing my point that you are thinking as if everyone in China are the same as people like you.

[poedua]

To them it's not, to you it is. Again emphasizing my point that you are thinking as if everyone in China are the same as people like you.

I consider the freedom to vote and the right to free elections a Universal Human Right.

Obviously, you don't - fine.

We agree to disagree.

[Ojam]

But Chinese don't have the freedom to vote ...isn't that important ?

No it's not important, in fact it is so un-important that the founding fathers in the United States of America (you know "capitalist democracy") did NOT want a democracy, they built in limits because they did not want a popular vote, because a popular vote isn't always the best thing, that’s why the electoral college chooses the president. They did NOT want parties, what they wanted was a few elite people to choose the best person for the presidency, who would not even know that they were going to be chosen, that way they get somebody who doesn't have pre-conceived goals about what they are going to do, and you get the best person. The only people involved are a few elite people, not the rest of the citizens.

[mingming]

I consider the freedom to vote and the right to free elections a Universal Human Right.

Obviously, you don't - fine.

We agree to disagree.

Yes, some people love that right, but for Chinese, it's mainly not that much of an importance. The poor people just care about having money, no matter what government they live in, all they will want is money. The rich people are rich, to them, voting whoever runs their government has no impact on them making money and living a good life.

Canadians vote once every four years, and does having our preferred government really affect our daily lives and happiness and finances? Sure the PC screwed us a bit in the past but did they really affect you significantly now that the LIberals are screwing us?

If you like your right to vote, how come you dont complain about your company, I mean you dont vote for your boss, you dont vote every 4 yrs who gets to become your company president.

[poedua]

Yes, some people love that right, but for Chinese, it's mainly not that much of an importance. The poor people just care about having money, no matter what government they live in, all they will want is money. The rich people are rich, to them, voting whoever runs their government has no impact on them making money and living a good life.

Canadians vote once every four years, and does having our preferred government really affect our daily lives and happiness and finances? Sure the PC screwed us a bit in the past but did they really affect you significantly now that the LIberals are screwing us?

If you like your right to vote, how come you dont complain about your company, I mean you dont vote for your boss, you dont vote every 4 yrs who gets to become your company president.

You're right.....so long as the Chinese people are happy living and thriving under a communist-led 'democratic dictatorship'....why change to a democracy ?

Live and let live.

[poedua]

No it's not important, in fact it is so un-important that the founding fathers in the United States of America (you know "capitalist democracy") did NOT want a democracy, they built in limits because they did not want a popular vote, because a popular vote isn't always the best thing, that’s why the electoral college chooses the president. They did NOT want parties, what they wanted was a few elite people to choose the best person for the presidency, who would not even know that they were going to be chosen, that way they get somebody who doesn't have pre-conceived goals about what they are going to do, and you get the best person. The only people involved are a few elite people, not the rest of the citizens.

Good points.

It does make me wonder why so many ' democracies ' exist today and have continued to outnumber and outperform ' communist ' forms of government - very puzzling.

Perhaps China is a ' model ' for the future of governance.

[mingming]

Good points.

It does make me wonder why so many ' democracies ' exist today and have continued to outnumber and outperform ' communist ' forms of government - very puzzling.

Perhaps China is a ' model ' for the future of governance.

But no other country today is growing and catching up to world powers as quickly than China.

[poedua]

But no other country today is growing and catching up to world powers as quickly than China.

Agreed....'catching up' with the rest of the world certainly does seem to be something China does well.

[mingming]

Agreed....'catching up' with the rest of the world certainly does seem to be something China does well.

China did once used to be a world power with the most powerful navy in the world. Yes, it may seem hundreds of years ago but thats how the world is. Countries one by one lose their animal instincts and fall behind. In the case of China, the cultural revolution dragged them behind a whole lot. And now they're sending men into space.

[poedua]

China did once used to be a world power with the most powerful navy in the world. Yes, it may seem hundreds of years ago but thats how the world is. Countries one by one lose their animal instincts and fall behind. In the case of China, the cultural revolution dragged them behind a whole lot. And now they're sending men into space..

I guess Mao's efforts to stem creeping "capitalist" and antisocialist tendencies wasn't such a good idea after all eh ?

Perhaps the ideological purity of communism has some shortcomings after all - I think it speaks for itself when you embrace 'capitalism oriented' principles to ' catch up '

[mingming]

.

I guess Mao's efforts to stem creeping "capitalist" and antisocialist tendencies wasn't such a good idea after all eh ?

Perhaps the ideological purity of communism has some shortcomings after all - I think it speaks for itself when you embrace 'capitalism oriented' principles to ' catch up '

I did not once say I embraced Mao's policies and actions when he was in power. Even the current government admitted that some of the things Mao did were wrong (great leap, cultural) and have changed their communist definition and its application significantly to reverse the effects.

[guest10586]

Obviously by now you think that people would catch on but democracy vs communism isn't the issue. Its all about capitalism. People who claim democracy is the saving grace are full of it, its capitalism that keep the masses motivated.

[wiggy]

Obviously by now you think that people would catch on but democracy vs communism isn't the issue. Its all about capitalism. People who claim democracy is the saving grace are full of it, its capitalism that keep the masses motivated.

I basically agree with you, but you need democracy or some other mechanism to put the brakes on the people who would happily take everything for themselves without a thought for anyone else around them.

[mingming]

I basically agree with you, but you need democracy or some other mechanism to put the brakes on the people who would happily take everything for themselves without a thought for anyone else around them.

Does democratic government have no corruption either? You saying the Canadian government never took tax money for the sake of themselves?

[gman]

Does democratic government have no corruption either? You saying the Canadian government never took tax money for the sake of themselves?
He said "mechanism". Without the "mechanism", you may not know about it. And even if you know about it, you can't do anything in a non-democratic environment. That is you can't get rid of it ... or at least, you have a better chance to get rid of it.

[poedua]

He said "mechanism". Without the "mechanism", you may not know about it. And even if you know about it, you can't do anything in a non-democratic environment. That is you can't get rid of it.

How would an electorate ' get rid ' of / combat corruption under a ' one party ' state such as China ?

The only option a democracy has is, to vote out the corrupt officials ( if it becomes public knowledge ) or have the corruption exposed by the press ( i.e Watergate ) as a catalyst for change.

[gman]

How would an electorate ' get rid ' of / combat corruption under a ' one party ' state such as China ?

The only option a democracy has is, to vote out the corrupt officials ( if it becomes public knowledge ) or have the corruption exposed by the press ( i.e Watergate ) as a catalyst for change.

Hmmm! I think I implied that you can't get rid of it unless there is democracy. Somehow, I have a feeling you read my post in a wrong angle.

EDIT: I re-read my post, I mean:

you can't do anything in a non-democratic environment. That is you can't get rid of it ... or at least, you have a better chance to get rid of it [if it is under democracy].

[wiggy]

Does democratic government have no corruption either? You saying the Canadian government never took tax money for the sake of themselves?
C'mon bud. I said no such thing. If you have a cogent argument to make, fine, but don't go tossing bait all over the place.

But then, compared to China and a lot of other places in the world, Canada is relatively corruption free (Transparency International (http://www.transparency.org/cpi/2005/cpi2005.sources.en.html) Canada #14, USA #17, Taiwan #32, China #78).

[poedua]

C'mon bud. I said no such thing. If you have a cogent argument to make, fine, but don't go tossing bait all over the place.

But then, compared to China and a lot of other places in the world, Canada is relatively corruption free (Transpareny International (http://www.transparency.org/cpi/2005/cpi2005.sources.en.html) Canada #14, USA #17, China #78).

Just a guess , but I suspect mingming will dismiss the validity of the study since it is a ' Western ' based source.

As I recall, the study looked at both ' political freedom ' as well as ' civil liberties ' ..........#78...I guess the good news for China is.....nowhere to go but up !!!!!

[eelfliw]

Ahh... 4 pages of this already! Wow. Time for me to jump in.

The TW independence movement is dying. There never has been and never will be a "Republic of Taiwan". The fact that there are 2 separate governments in one China is the result of unresolved civil war - NOT secession. Neither governments recognize TW as a separate nation.

It's election time in Taiwan. In December, they'll have the equivalent of municipal elections there. In the extremely politically divided TW, party politics infects politicians even at the municipal level. Consequently, the pro-independence party is up to their old tricks again : promoting division, racism and hatred. There will be endless propaganda in the media about the evils of China. But this time, it will be much much toned down. Because China has played a well orchestrated public relations game in TW in the last few months. Coupled with recent visits by TW's major political party leaders to China, the flame of hatred that the pro-independence hatred-mongers have been fanning has mostly being doused. Without China to bash, the pro-independence supporters no longer have a platform (just like Hitler has no platform if he didn't bash the Jews). This, coupled with their dysmal record of governing (a poll of the pro-independence 2-bullet president's popularity recently fell to an all-time low) does not bode well for their chances in this election. However, because this is an election, there will still be a great deal of mud-slinging.

The US weapons sale to TW have little chance of suceeding. The legislature, which approves the budget, has not, and will not, pass the spending bill. In fact, the bill has not even received enough votes to quality for a debate in the legislature. The US can bully all they want. But elected legislators won't buy.

I don't even know why this simple fact has been overlooked in this thread. US bullying TW to buy weapons is yesterday's news - the deal is dead. TW & China are now working on a peaceful resolution to the 60+ year civil war. If it weren't for the pro-independence supporters battle-cry interruptions in the past 8 years, TW and China will be much better off today.

[b166er1337]

It does not matter how you see it. It is how people in mainland china see it that matters. They consider Taiwan island as part of the body. That's why they don't want it to go away. If they consider it as an arm of a body, will they let it go?
Will you let it go if you have the same feeling?


People in mainland have no right to say regarding to Taiwan's future. Only people who live in Taiwan can decide their own future. Gman, do you want anyone else to dictate your future other than yourself?

200 years is longer than Canada has been around. If a party wins a civil war, does it not mean you have defeated the other party over the entire country??? China as a whole, included TW before 1949.

In Canada, Paul Martin won the election, can Stephen Harper run off to Newfoundland and call it... "Canada of Harper" and run his own version of government, then ask to become independent???

Mingming, your argument is specious. The first paragraph has at least some valid points. The second paragraph is a total joke.

First of all, it's obvoious from a chinese mentality that because they have a long history, they think their way is the right way. Whatever you think about the 1949 civil war, communists didn't win entirely. If they had won decisively, we won't have this discussion here.

Furthermore, when Mao established People's Republic of China, it didn't destroy Republic of China in Taiwan. All he did was created 2 Chinas. If there were 2 Germanies and 2 Koreas coexisting, why is it so hard for mainland Chinese to accept the simple fact that there are two Chinas?

Oh, and your second paragraph is pure genius. Amazing. I gotta give it to you. I haven't laughed this hard since watching an old man tumbling face downward first on an escalator.



I don't even know why this simple fact has been overlooked in this thread. US bullying TW to buy weapons is yesterday's news - the deal is dead. TW & China are now working on a peaceful resolution to the 60+ year civil war. If it weren't for the pro-independence supporters battle-cry interruptions in the past 8 years, TW and China will be much better off today.

YES...blame the one who buy the defensive weapons.

PRC DIDN'T DO ANYTHING PROVOCATIVE. NOPE, NONE!

-Deploying 700 missiles is for the benefit of mankind.
-Threaten to nuke LA from a general is nothing serious.
-As far as i can tell, the only side threaten to go to war is People's Republic of China. But the funny thing is...Taiwan isn't under their control.

[gman]

People in mainland have no right to say regarding to Taiwan's future. Only people who live in Taiwan can decide their own future. Gman, do you want anyone else to dictate your future other than yourself?
I was trying to tell you the reason behind it. It is not about right or wrong which you can argue for the next century.

No, I don't want somebody to dictate my future. However, I also don't want my brother takes something that I truely think it belongs to me and runs away.
You may say no, no, no, it does not belong to you. However, my feeling matters to me and my action reflects that.

[ynchu]

Before anyone goes on, how many of you are actually Chinese or Taiwanese?

If you are neither, you have no say in this situation. What you think is irrelevant.

Stop saying the "independence movement" of Taiwanese government. There is no such movement at all. Taiwan by itself is an independent country, with its own education system, military, police, government, and an elected president. There are more than two major political parties on the island as well.

What you may think as the "independence movement" is actually trying to let the rest of the world to know who we are, and what situation we are at. It is for all those of you retards who never actually took time to understand modern Chinese history, and thought Taiwan is actually part of China. The official answer, again, is yes, the Taiwan province belongs to China, the Republic of China. It is not the case of Hong Kong - it is a complete different story. Unfortunately the capitalists lost the war in the late 40's, and the China become what we know of now, the Republic of People's China.

It is time for some of you to chew some history books, before you say anything that makes you look like a ******. By the way, the Republic of China was one of the original founders of the United Nation, not the Republic of People's China. What is actually happening now around the world is unfair to the Taiwanese population, who has been rejected to rejoin the United Nation and pretty much any international organization.

[mingming]

Furthermore, when Mao established People's Republic of China, it didn't destroy Republic of China in Taiwan. All he did was created 2 Chinas. If there were 2 Germanies and 2 Koreas coexisting, why is it so hard for mainland Chinese to accept the simple fact that there are two Chinas?

Good you brought up Germany. Did Germany find prosperity with East and West separated? No. What happened eventually? A unified Germany. Are the 2 Koreas at peace and happy the way they are? No, those 2 are still at war, and unless there's unity, it will never end. There are many families separated because they have relatives in North Korea, all they want is for them to reunite.

I really dont know what nationality you are of, but for Chinese people, we are ALL Chinese. When you ask anyone of HK, Mainland, TW descent, people will tell you they are Chinese, and they speak Chinese. Yes, some will tell you they are Taiwanese, but all of us feel we are Chinese. Again, I dont know where you're from, but we all feel a sense of Chinese pride in all of us. May we agree all the time about China, HK, TW governments, NO, but neither do Canadians. The last thing we want to see is Chinese separated into differnet countries, it's just our own beliefs that all Chinese are the same and should not be separated. Just like Koreans, they dont like seeing 2 Koreas. You make it sound so simple that Chinese wont mind that their people are being split up.

Originally Posted by b166er1337 I haven't laughed this hard since watching an old man tumbling face downward first on an escalator.

On a side note, If this is true :arrowu: :arrowu: :arrowu: , then you clearly have some issues... :(

[mingming]

Before anyone goes on, how many of you are actually Chinese or Taiwanese?

If you are neither, you have no say in this situation. What you think is irrelevant.

Stop saying the "independence movement" of Taiwanese government. There is no such movement at all. Taiwan by itself is an independent country, with its own education system, military, police, government, and an elected president. There are more than two major political parties on the island as well.

What you may think as the "independence movement" is actually trying to let the rest of the world to know who we are, and what situation we are at. It is for all those of you retards who never actually took time to understand modern Chinese history, and thought Taiwan is actually part of China. The official answer, again, is yes, the Taiwan province belongs to China, the Republic of China. It is not the case of Hong Kong - it is a complete different story. Unfortunately the capitalists lost the war in the late 40's, and the China become what we know of now, the Republic of People's China.

It is time for some of you to chew some history books, before you say anything that makes you look like a ******. By the way, the Republic of China was one of the original founders of the United Nation, not the Republic of People's China. What is actually happening now around the world is unfair to the Taiwanese population, who has been rejected to rejoin the United Nation and pretty much any international organization.

You are clearly from Taiwan. Let me ask you a question, if people ask you what nationality you are. Will you say Taiwanese or Chinese? And what language do you speak?

[TigerEROS]

TW has $$$$. The Americans want to make the $$$$. China is corrupt. They ONLY have people and NO $$$$. Why would the USA want to deal with China?

TW is the BEST! TW is the TRUE CHINA.

Republic of China was created by Dr. Sun Yat Sen. He is the Father of China. The Mainlanders also agree.

Therefore ROC is the REAL CHINA. PROC is NOT THE REAL CHINA.

Step aside Communists and BOW to the REAL CHINA!

[mingming]

TW has $$$$. The Americans want to make the $$$$. China is corrupt. They ONLY have people and NO $$$$. Why would the USA want to deal with China?

TW is the BEST! TW is the TRUE CHINA.

Republic of China was created by Dr. Sun Yat Sen. He is the Father of China. The Mainlanders also agree.

Therefore ROC is the REAL CHINA. PROC is NOT THE REAL CHINA.

Step aside Communists and BOW to the REAL CHINA!

Please, the rest of us are trying to have a healthy debate, and here you are causing a rukus. Such a great way to show everyone the Taiwanese attitude!!!

[TenzoR]

wow so many ppl are getting pu$$y hurt over this matter

[TenzoR]

maybe I should get my dad to start posting he loves to debate about China/Taiwan ..usually with my sister and mom while I just eat dinner and listen

[TigerEROS]

You are clearly from Taiwan. Let me ask you a question, if people ask you what nationality you are. Will you say Taiwanese or Chinese? And what language do you speak?

I'd say: " I'm Taiwanese."

Language: Guo Yu (which translated means "The National Language")

Mainlanders would say: "I'm from China."

Language: Pu Tong Hua (which translated means "Common Language")

Just in case people don't know, Taiwanese people, when they speak Mandarin, it sounds much more polite. Mainlanders sound like farmers with no education. The accent is way tooooooo strong and it sounds disgustingly annoying!

Also, "Pu Tong Hua" is for COMMON PEOPLE as it does mean "Common Language". "Guo Yu" is for the REAL CHINESE PEOPLE because this is respecting the country ... "The National Language".

[ynchu]

YES...blame the one who buy the defensive weapons.

PRC DIDN'T DO ANYTHING PROVOCATIVE. NOPE, NONE!

-Deploying 700 missiles is for the benefit of mankind.
-Threaten to nuke LA from a general is nothing serious.
-As far as i can tell, the only side threaten to go to war is People's Republic of China. But the funny thing is...Taiwan isn't under their control.

I do have to take side with that general though. The US has been directly and indirectly influence every single people of this world. If Bush wasn't elected and the U.S lived in a peaceful life like the late 90's, I don't see how 911 would've happened and how this general would be so mad.

And PRC did start wars long before the first world war. The revolution in 1911, and then the civil wars after, all lead by KMT. :D

I do believe that if the Republic of People's China would show some kindness, instead of pointing Taiwan with missles, the Taiwanese government would seriously reconsider talking like what happened in 1992. For example, the Chinese government could allow Taiwan rejoin UN, have a say in WTO, be part of Olympic "officially"... etc. But what scares me is Chinese people are so different to the Taiwanese people. I can't imagine my home town filled with Chinese tourists, that will be horrible...

[ynchu]

You are clearly from Taiwan. Let me ask you a question, if people ask you what nationality you are. Will you say Taiwanese or Chinese? And what language do you speak?

I will proudly say I am from Republic of China, I am a Chinese, and I was born in the province of Taiwan.

The language I speak? I can speak Mandarin (the national language), Taiwanese (the regional dialet), and English (to communicate with the rest of the world.)

[ynchu]

I'd say: " I'm Taiwanese."

Language: Guo Yu (which translated means "The National Language")

Mainlanders would say: "I'm from China."

Language: Pu Tong Hua (which translated means "Common Language")

Just in case people don't know, Taiwanese people, when they speak Mandarin, it sounds much more polite. Mainlanders sound like farmers with no education. The accent is way tooooooo strong and it sounds disgustingly annoying!

Also, "Pu Tong Hua" is for COMMON PEOPLE as it does mean "Common Language". "Guo Yu" is for the REAL CHINESE PEOPLE because this is respecting the country ... "The National Language".

You can't blame them for speaking Mandarin their way. After all, could be blame the British for having "accent"? I do find the Southern English annoying though...

The Taiwanese Mandarin is very close to how they speak in middle China. For example, people from Shanhai sound, sometimes, the same to me.

As for "lack of education" part, you have to forgive them as well. After all, during their civil movements (by Mao) from 1950 to 1980, almost none of them received proper education and they all fight for themselves to stay alive. When sometimes I feel a mainlander is being rude, greedy, and offensive, I thought about their history... and I start to feel bad for them.

[mingming]

ynchu, does the dialect and the style of mandarin mainlanders speak and the thought of tourist in your hometown affect you so greatly? It is showing you look down on mainland chinese and I really dont respect that. Does it have anything significance to your support for Taiwan independence.

Lets clear things up, I was born in HK, but I call myself Chinese. In my resumes I say i can speak Cantonese and Mandarin, write and read Chinese. Thats what it should be.. "Chinese". Wont you feel some sort of loss if the Chinese people are separated by 2 countries?

Do I agree with China suggesting force to take back TW: No, that is never good for ANY situation.

Do I agree with TW becoming independent: No

Do I agree with a unified China regardless of political system: Yes

[ynchu]

Read my post, I never said anything about their dialet. In fact, I respect the original Mandarin as much as I respect the British English.

Yes, I am worried about my hometown filled with less educated Mainland Chinese people. Look at the HK disney and what the Chinese tourists have done to it, you will see my concerns.

Again, I DO NOT support the Taiwanese independence. Read my posts clearly. Why don't I support it? Because the fact is, Republic of China, or in other words, Taiwan, is an independent country.

As for what you call yourself, I think it is completely correct. After all, Hong Kong, before 97, was part of the Great Britian. Now it is part of China. There was never an independent country of Hong Kong or anything.

However, I do agree that together, the Chinese people would be much better off. But keeping the mainland infiltrating every level of government and even the freedom of speech is not what I want to see. This has happened to Hong Kong, as you probably know better than I do.

ynchu, does the dialect and the style of mandarin mainlanders speak and the thought of tourist in your hometown affect you so greatly? It is showing you look down on mainland chinese and I really dont respect that. Does it have anything significance to your support for Taiwan independence.

Lets clear things up, I was born in HK, but I call myself Chinese. In my resumes I say i can speak Cantonese and Mandarin, write and read Chinese. Thats what it should be.. "Chinese". Wont you feel some sort of loss if the Chinese people are separated by 2 countries?

Do I agree with China suggesting force to take back TW: No, that is never good for ANY situation.

Do I agree with TW becoming independent: No

Do I agree with a unified China regardless of political system: Yes

[mingming]

ynchu, Im sorry, the dialect quote was meant for TigerEROS. I read the wrong name.

Please accept my apologies.

[mingming]

Yes, I am worried about my hometown filled with less educated Mainland Chinese people. Look at the HK disney and what the Chinese tourists have done to it, you will see my concerns.

You cant really blame them, they are so used to this way of life that they may ignore some common courtesy. I admit, it does sometimes frustrate me when I visit China and NO ONE lines up at McD's. But this is something that will take time for the current generation to adapt. It is getting better, but I agree it still needs work

As for what you call yourself, I think it is completely correct. After all, Hong Kong, before 97, was part of the Great Britian. Now it is part of China. There was never an independent country of Hong Kong or anything.

But I dont call myself "UK Hong Kong" even before 97 takeover.


However, I do agree that together, the Chinese people would be much better off. But keeping the mainland infiltrating every level of government and even the freedom of speech is not what I want to see. This has happened to Hong Kong, as you probably know better than I do.

Thank you, but in general, I myself dont consider TW a seperate official country. We'll probably be having a whole different conversation if the KMT had won in 1949 and the Communist retreated to TW.

[Slimfast]

I
Just in case people don't know, Taiwanese people, when they speak Mandarin, it sounds much more polite. Mainlanders sound like farmers with no education. The accent is way tooooooo strong and it sounds disgustingly annoying!

Also, "Pu Tong Hua" is for COMMON PEOPLE as it does mean "Common Language". "Guo Yu" is for the REAL CHINESE PEOPLE because this is respecting the country ... "The National Language".

I'm tired of seeing all this anti-Mainland China crap. I'm not saying I disagree with you but you have just spewed a whole lot of racist crap. Just because you are not accustomed to someone else's accent, it does not mean that they're farmers. Really, I'm tired of all this bashing of the people of Mainland China. Bash the government all you want but don't say blanket statements about the people.

Your ignorance is disgusting.

[mingming]

I'm tired of seeing all this anti-Mainland China crap. I'm not saying I disagree with you but you have just spewed a whole lot of racist crap. Just because you are not accustomed to someone else's accent, it does not mean that they're farmers. Really, I'm tired of all this bashing of the people of Mainland China. Bash the government all you want but don't say blanket statements about the people.

Your ignorance is disgusting.



TW is the BEST! TW is the TRUE CHINA.

Republic of China was created by Dr. Sun Yat Sen. He is the Father of China. The Mainlanders also agree.

Therefore ROC is the REAL CHINA. PROC is NOT THE REAL CHINA.

Step aside Communists and BOW to the REAL CHINA!

His previous post proves it too. :arrowu: :arrowu: :arrowu:

[Dark-Colonel]

Nobody here knows what they are talking about.

Nobody here works for the US or Taiwain government.

Nobody here should be talking about things they dont know, or thing they have read on the web or newspaper.

Nobody here is a politician.

So please dont arguing about something nobody here knows about, and get back to selling hardware :)

Have a nice day...

[Ojam]

Nobody here knows what they are talking about.

Nobody here works for the US or Taiwain government.

Nobody here should be talking about things they dont know, or thing they have read on the web or newspaper.

Nobody here is a politician.

So please dont arguing about something nobody here knows about, and get back to selling hardware :)

Have a nice day...

What makes you say that? :confused:

If you are so informed that you know that nobody knows what they are talking about why not enlighten us all with your great knowledge?

[poedua]

Nobody here knows what they are talking about....

They're entitled to their opinions nonetheless - it's a forum


Nobody here works for the US or Taiwain government....

Irrelevant.


Nobody here should be talking about things they dont know, or thing they have read on the web or newspaper....

They're entitled to their opinions nonetheless - it's a forum



Nobody here is a politician.....

Irrelevant.


So please dont arguing about something nobody here knows about, and get back to selling hardware :).....

An interesting opinion - but again, irrelevant to the topic

[poedua]

What makes you say that? :confused:

If you are so informed that you know that nobody knows what they are talking about why not enlighten us all with your great knowledge?

Well said

[Dark-Colonel]

They're entitled to their opinions nonetheless - it's a forum




Irrelevant.




They're entitled to their opinions nonetheless - it's a forum





Irrelevant.




An interesting opinion - but again, irrelevant to the topic

I'm not saying that the discussion should end, the way the discussion is continueing , sounds like we are all in New York (or belgium?) UN headquarters debating...

[TigerEROS]

What makes you say that? :confused:

If you are so informed that you know that nobody knows what they are talking about why not enlighten us all with your great knowledge?

Voicing your opinion? Great but not relevant. Thank you come again! (referring to Post #119 http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2304156&postcount=119).

[b166er1337]

Lets clear things up, I was born in HK, but I call myself Chinese. In my resumes I say i can speak Cantonese and Mandarin, write and read Chinese. Thats what it should be.. "Chinese". Wont you feel some sort of loss if the Chinese people are separated by 2 countries?

Do I agree with China suggesting force to take back TW: No, that is never good for ANY situation.

Do I agree with TW becoming independent: No

Do I agree with a unified China regardless of political system: Yes

1) Do you feel sorry how the British empire is divided into the following countries: Great Britain, USA, Canada, Australia, India and New Zealand ?

I know i don't feel sorry.

[poedua]

I'm not saying that the discussion should end, the way the discussion is continueing , sounds like we are all in New York (or belgium?) UN headquarters debating...

What's wrong with that???

You make it sound as though an vigorous heatlhy debate is something to be avoided.

I for one, am learning something about the background of Taiwan / China as a result of the debate.

Your earlier statement " Nobody here knows what they are talking about " suggests that you, by contrast, are fully versed on the topic.

Enlighten us.

[mingming]

I'm not saying that the discussion should end, the way the discussion is continueing , sounds like we are all in New York (or belgium?) UN headquarters debating...

But isnt this thread EXACTLY what you say it is? A debate!!! How can a there be a debate without a difference of opinion??? (I know peodua, we live in a democracy and thats the reason we can have this debate :) But actually, i think we SHOULD be able to "semi"-debate about this in China)

[simms]

What's wrong with that???

You make it sound as though an vigorous heatlhy debate is something to be avoided.

I for one, am learning something about the background of Taiwan / China as a result of the debate.

Your earlier statement " Nobody here knows what they are talking about " suggests that you, by contrast, are fully versed on the topic.

Enlighten us.

:thumbsup;

[boo4842]

Don't spread propoganda BS!

What you're saying is true, but you're putting a spin on it that makes it complete crap!

The US is legally bound to defend Taiwan, they have no choice. But, the US knows that China is a powerhouse and the last thing the US wants is to have to engage in a fight with China to defend Taiwan.

The US wants Taiwan to defend itself against China so that the US and China can continue improving relations between the two countries. Nobody else but the US can sell Taiwan those kinds of arms.

Russia would never sell Taiwan weapons because Russia and China are extremely close and Russia can't afford to piss of China. We sure can't provide those kinds of weapons.

The US isn't forcing them to buy weapons, but they are mad that Taiwan isn't trying to defend itself because they know that the US has to defend them.

He might have come off harsh, but he does have a point (Article from the economist)

Still waiting
Oct 6th 2005 | TAIPEI
From The Economist print edition

The island is wary of America's hardware


WHEN George Bush took office in 2001, he made two bold commitments to Taiwan. The first was his declaration to do “whatever it takes” to help defend the Asian democracy, presumably against a China that claims the territory for its own. The second was to offer a package of advanced weapons, including submarines and anti-missile batteries, with which the Taiwanese could boost their defensive capacities. Four years on, there is no sign of these weapons arriving, since Taiwan has not approved a budget for them. The Bush administration is getting impatient.

Officials from the Department of Defence have let it be known that America is unenthusiastic about defending a Taiwan that apparently does not want to defend itself. Even the State Department has expressed frustration, with a senior official telling a congressional commission that America “wants results” on the weapons procurement.

Advertisement
There are many reasons for the delay. Taiwan's government, controlled by the Democratic Progressive Party (DPP), which supports the territory's formal independence from China, wants the arms; but the opposition Kuomintang (KMT) and People First Party, which between them control parliament, do not. Reasons for their opposition include their traditional support for reunification with China—they see the weapons as strengthening the hand of the separatists—and a new-found closeness to the government in Beijing: both parties' leaders visited China earlier in the year.

The DPP accuses them of being little more than paid agents for China's reunification policy. In reality the parties realise that, as Taiwan's economy becomes more bound up with China's, there is a need for negotiation across the Taiwan Strait that the DPP, cold-shouldered in Beijing, cannot meet.

But there is more to the stand-off than opposition obstruction. The government has shown timidity in trying to pay for the weapons, which cost around $16 billion, through a “special budget” rather than trying to win the argument for an expansion of the ordinary defence budget, which would mean making unpopular expenditure cuts elsewhere. And the opposition, particularly the business-oriented KMT, might just have been won over if America had offered Taiwan a role in the construction of the most expensive items on the list, eight submarines. This was, however, vetoed by the Defence Department in 2004.

The legislature's defence committee has now refused to review the budget some 31 times since June last year. Perhaps next year, says Wang Jin-pyng, the legislature's speaker and a senior KMT figure. America will have to wait.
__________________________________________________ _______________

Taiwan has refused to pony up the money for the weapons 31 times so far! Not only that, but guess who would be expected to rush to their aid if China did makes some agressive moves - good ole USA. The Americans point is, you could at least make an effort to defend yourself. Not saying you have to have enough to beat the Chinese, but a token jesture of your OWN defense is not so much to ask.

Its a similar position as Canada. WHy would we spend any money on defense when the US is just going to come to our aid if we need it. Let them spend the money. Its a pretty bad attitude.

Imagine instead of paying for their own health care system countries just sent sick people to Canada for treatment since they aren't going to turn away dying people at the hospitals.

[MizTEcK]

I'd say: " I'm Taiwanese."

Language: Guo Yu (which translated means "The National Language")

Mainlanders would say: "I'm from China."

Language: Pu Tong Hua (which translated means "Common Language")

Just in case people don't know, Taiwanese people, when they speak Mandarin, it sounds much more polite. Mainlanders sound like farmers with no education. The accent is way tooooooo strong and it sounds disgustingly annoying!

Also, "Pu Tong Hua" is for COMMON PEOPLE as it does mean "Common Language". "Guo Yu" is for the REAL CHINESE PEOPLE because this is respecting the country ... "The National Language".

hey when did you start talking again? STFU, last time u said such bull***** comments you didnt get banned i wonder why? you know admins or something? Since you said all that bull***** just now i can safely tell you to go back to taiwan since you're obviously in the wrong place with all these multicultural ppl around you.

o yea remember the computer in your sig? it's still a piece of crap

[cyberknight]

About democratic nations... Do we really value democracy that much? Have you looked at the percentage of people who actually vote? it's pitiful, especially in municipal elections.

I mean, if things are fine, let them be. It doesn't matter what government they are run under. These government terms have almost become propaganda. How many times do you hear Bush say "democracy" or "freedom" when he does his announcements?

[b166er1337]

About democratic nations... Do we really value democracy that much? Have you looked at the percentage of people who actually vote? it's pitiful, especially in municipal elections.




The difference is that people in democratic nations have a choice. Those live in dictatorship have none.



o yea remember the computer in your sig? it's still a piece of crap

oh...personal attack.
how typical :rolleyes:

[MizTEcK]

oh...personal attack.
how typical :rolleyes:

^ur not in this, hes just ignorant, :)

[guest10586]

I hate how any topic on Taiwan basically turns into the China vs Taiwan thing. It reminds me that people really are shallow...I mean who cares? :mad:

[eelfliw]

YES...blame the one who buy the defensive weapons.

PRC DIDN'T DO ANYTHING PROVOCATIVE. NOPE, NONE!

-Deploying 700 missiles is for the benefit of mankind.
-Threaten to nuke LA from a general is nothing serious.
-As far as i can tell, the only side threaten to go to war is People's Republic of China. But the funny thing is...Taiwan isn't under their control.

You and I both know that those "defensive weapons" are basically outdated junk eg. retired submarines and old design Patriot missiles that have a tendency to shoot down friendly aircraft) that US is trying to turn into cash at super inflated prices. These will not protect TW from any invasion... well, ok, maybe if Kiribati invades TW, those weapons will be useful. But certainly not China.

In other words, this so called "weapons sale" is really a cash grab by the US to possibly help fund their Iraq expedition.

The people in TW have already seen right thru US motives and disapproved the sale - first in the March 20, 2004 referendum, then again, many many times in the legislature. The government clearly ignored the referendum results and went ahead with the legislation. Fortunately, it failed time ang time again in the legislature.

So, it is not just me that's "blaming" the weapons sale. It's also the majority of people in TW that doesn't agree with the sale. The pro-independence people's constant fear-mongering chant of "700 missiles", "nuke LA" etc. are getting old. About as old as the boy who cried "Wolf!" The people in TW have seen right thru the US junk-for-cash scheme. They have also seen right thru the pro-independence backer's hatred-mongering lies.

China have been calling, repeatedly, for talks with TW to improve relations. Those answering the calls include leaders of the opposition political parties. They visited China and initiated a number of steps that will help the people in TW (including bringing the Pandas to TW Zoo, expedited fruit shipment to China, opening up TW to Chinese tourism etc.). However, the pro-independence ruling party have not answered the invitation. An invitation for peaceful negotiated resolution to the armed standoff. Why?

Why will the ruling party refuse an invitation to peaceful negotiations? May be it just goes against their firm belief that war is the only way to resolve the conflict?

The weapons sale is just a facade for US to collect some money from TW. The real issue here is that the ruling party rules TW in name only. All of its major initiatives (including weapons purchase) have been so far voted down in the legislature. It is a lame duck regime that's just begging for a quick and painless death. The people in TW can't wait to turf out this useless government. And the latest round of bribery and corruption scandals in Kaoshiong may just bring down yet another prime minister (he's the former mayor). The minister of foreign relations have already handed in his resignation for losing Sierra Leone as a country with official relations. Rumors abound that official relations with Vatican is also in jeopardy.

This is the pro-independence movement for ya. A bunch of useless loonies trying to run a government. They're only good at inciting hatred. But doesn't know a thing about effective governing.

[ynchu]

I hate how any topic on Taiwan basically turns into the China vs Taiwan thing. It reminds me that people really are shallow...I mean who cares? :mad:

You can easily start similar argument regarding to QC independence, but then again, the situation is totally different.

If you don't care, don't bother commenting.

[ynchu]

Man, I hear you. The problem with most Chinese (that includes the Chinese in Taiwan) government is they care about their fame and wealth, almost none of them cares about the well-being of citizens.

The way I saw Chen's party was "wow, finally someone new" after fed up with KMT's corruption problem. It turned out that nobody in the party knows anything about economy, foreign relations, education, health care, and the list goes on. Granted, they are new to this, but now after almost 7 years of trying and failing, I am truly disappointed.

I could almost say the same to the Canadian government. I hate it when the someone is doing a bad job on this particular seat, the PM simply exchange him or her with another person from another seat. I always imagined that one day we could pass a law that states "government officials must have graduated from related field of study and "political science" or "law" do not count." And another requirement would be "you must have an IQ of at least 110" and "at least a university degree."

...

This is the pro-independence movement for ya. A bunch of useless loonies trying to run a government. They're only good at inciting hatred. But doesn't know a thing about effective governing.

[guest10586]

You can easily start similar argument regarding to QC independence, but then again, the situation is totally different.

If you don't care, don't bother commenting.

I care enough not to want to see two extreme factions bickering about a something they can't control.

I'd rather you two step out and beat each other to death but this is the net so everyone has to hear your garbage.

[poedua]

Man, I hear you. The problem with most Chinese (that includes the Chinese in Taiwan) government is they care about their fame and wealth, almost none of them cares about the well-being of citizens.

The way I saw Chen's party was "wow, finally someone new" after fed up with KMT's corruption problem. It turned out that nobody in the party knows anything about economy, foreign relations, education, health care, and the list goes on. Granted, they are new to this, but now after almost 7 years of trying and failing, I am truly disappointed.

I could almost say the same to the Canadian government. I hate it when the someone is doing a bad job on this particular seat, the PM simply exchange him or her with another person from another seat. I always imagined that one day we could pass a law that states "government officials must have graduated from related field of study and "political science" or "law" do not count." And another requirement would be "you must have an IQ of at least 110" and "at least a university degree."

Good points.

But, at least we can vote these political ' bozos ' out of office in Cananda everyfew years - when we can't take their incompetance and corruption any more - sadly, voting for change is something you don't have the freedom to do in China.

[siriuskao]

Taiwan has refused to pony up the money for the CRAP 31 times so far!

With Taiwan's wealth and budget, she can get top of the line equipments yet
US always want to sell Taiwan out-dated/crippled/untested equipments.

Taiwan begged US for F16 for years, denied several times - at the end Taiwan developed its own fighter IDF and bought some French made mirage 2000. I think right now Taiwan finally got some F16s but it's no longer top of the line.

Same for navy. US tried to dump some old cruiser(retired from US navy) to Taiwan. Taiwan decided to built its own, I believe again they also bought some French-made frigate.

Not to mention US's price on various weapons to Taiwan are always way over-priced.

Don't give $$$ to Bush's war funds. this is not about Taiwan protecting itself, it's about bully asking for protection money. Plus I doubt US will risk their boys for Taiwan with a war against China. Unlike US's old opponents(Russia/Japan/NKorea/Afgan/Iraq), US has deep economic ties with China.



__________________________________________________ _______________

Taiwan has refused to pony up the money for the weapons 31 times so far! Not only that, but guess who would be expected to rush to their aid if China did makes some agressive moves - good ole USA. The Americans point is, you could at least make an effort to defend yourself. Not saying you have to have enough to beat the Chinese, but a token jesture of your OWN defense is not so much to ask.

Its a similar position as Canada. WHy would we spend any money on defense when the US is just going to come to our aid if we need it. Let them spend the money. Its a pretty bad attitude.

Imagine instead of paying for their own health care system countries just sent sick people to Canada for treatment since they aren't going to turn away dying people at the hospitals.

[b166er1337]

China have been calling, repeatedly, for talks with TW to improve relations. Those answering the calls include leaders of the opposition political parties. They visited China and initiated a number of steps that will help the people in TW (including bringing the Pandas to TW Zoo, expedited fruit shipment to China, opening up TW to Chinese tourism etc.). However, the pro-independence ruling party have not answered the invitation. An invitation for peaceful negotiated resolution to the armed standoff. Why?


I am glad you brought that up. Yes, China has demanded talked. BUT AT WHAT CONDITIONS?

The condition China imposed is that Taiwan is a subject of the Beijing central government. Since all negotiations should involve partners of equal status, China has to change its bossy attitude first.

[devious9191]

Taiwan has refused to pony up the money for the CRAP 31 times so far!

With Taiwan's wealth and budget, she can get top of the line equipments yet
US always want to sell Taiwan out-dated/crippled/untested equipments.

Taiwan begged US for F16 for years, denied several times - at the end Taiwan developed its own fighter IDF and bought some French made mirage 2000. I think right now Taiwan finally got some F16s but it's no longer top of the line.

Same for navy. US tried to dump some old cruiser(retired from US navy) to Taiwan. Taiwan decided to built its own, I believe again they also bought some French-made frigate.

Not to mention US's price on various weapons to Taiwan are always way over-priced.

Don't give $$$ to Bush's war funds. this is not about Taiwan protecting itself, it's about bully asking for protection money. Plus I doubt US will risk their boys for Taiwan with a war against China. Unlike US's old opponents(Russia/Japan/NKorea/Afgan/Iraq), US has deep economic ties with China.

Maybe you could provide a source for some of this information? Everything I've read has been showing that the US has been trying to sell Taiwan F16's in particular since 1992, and has always tried to encourage Taiwan to buy the 'latest and greatest', including their Aegis destroyers. It's one thing to 'shop around', but it's something else to say that the US is refusing to sell them anything but junk. And maybe you could provide some figures that show that what the US sells to Taiwan is 'over priced', in relation to the actual cost of manufacturing and development of whatever you're referring to.

[gman]

Maybe you could provide a source for some of this information? Everything I've read has been showing that the US has been trying to sell Taiwan F16's in particular since 1992, and has always tried to encourage Taiwan to buy the 'latest and greatest', including their Aegis destroyers. It's one thing to 'shop around', but it's something else to say that the US is refusing to sell them anything but junk. And maybe you could provide some figures that show that what the US sells to Taiwan is 'over priced', in relation to the actual cost of manufacturing and development of whatever you're referring to.

F16 was first flown in 1976. In 1992, F16 was not state of art anymore.

[ynchu]

If I remember correctly (forgive me, when they were talking about the F16 deal, I was little), but there was also issues regarding to maintenance and training. The US wanted Taiwan to purchase the stuff, and talk about maintenance later. At late 80's and early 90's, no one on the island could fly F16's anyway because there was no one to train the pilots.

By the time Taiwan got these F16's, I think they were the F16-E or -F? Which was outdated compared to the fighter that China got off from Russia (which was freshly made.)

[siriuskao]

Maybe you could provide a source for some of this information? Everything I've read has been showing that the US has been trying to sell Taiwan F16's in particular since 1992, and has always tried to encourage Taiwan to buy the 'latest and greatest', including their Aegis destroyers. It's one thing to 'shop around', but it's something else to say that the US is refusing to sell them anything but junk. And maybe you could provide some figures that show that what the US sells to Taiwan is 'over priced', in relation to the actual cost of manufacturing and development of whatever you're referring to.

I admit calling all of them crap was a bit strong. :cheesygri

the 8 subs that's included in the current deal are diesel based - according to this article (1), they cost 12 billiion USD (this is the price excluding other equipments).

12,000,000,000 / 8 = 1,500,000,000

1.5 billion each for diesel (barbel-class (6)) submarine??? According to (2) a Los Angles class NUCLEAR sub (not that Taiwan needs nuc subs) cost ~800 million.

barbel-class was built around 1950-60s and retired in late 80s(7), not new technology. USA can't even build them anymore since entire US navy(sub) is nuclear now.

As for AEGIS destroyers - Ticonderoga class cruiser. USA is beginning to decommision them (3), so it's not really "latest and greatest". -> dump to Taiwan

USA also sold 4 kidd-class destroyers to Taiwan AFTER they are decommissioned from US navy. cost ~7-800 million (4)(5) -> dump to Taiwan

(1) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20889-2004Oct9.html
(2) http://www.cdi.org/issues/naval/seawolf.html
(3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticonderoga_class_cruiser
(4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidd-class
(5) http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/taiwan/2001/taiwan-010425.htm
(6) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Taiwan
(7) http://www.skyrocket.de/usnavy/index_frame.htm?http://www.skyrocket.de/usnavy/data/ss-580__barbel.htm

[jda]

Maybe you could provide a source for some of this information? Everything I've read has been showing that the US has been trying to sell Taiwan F16's in particular since 1992, and has always tried to encourage Taiwan to buy the 'latest and greatest', including their Aegis destroyers. It's one thing to 'shop around', but it's something else to say that the US is refusing to sell them anything but junk. And maybe you could provide some figures that show that what the US sells to Taiwan is 'over priced', in relation to the actual cost of manufacturing and development of whatever you're referring to.

F16B the crappy version. Also, the only reason the US started selling Taiwan F16 is because by that time Taiwan has already invented something similar (IDF, still can't match the newest F16 at that time).

[eelfliw]

Man, I hear you. The problem with most Chinese (that includes the Chinese in Taiwan) government is they care about their fame and wealth, almost none of them cares about the well-being of citizens.

.......

I could almost say the same to the Canadian government.

Politicians are the same all over. They just achieve their goals thru different means due to different political systems and different laws.

[ronin893]

I am glad you brought that up. Yes, China has demanded talked. BUT AT WHAT CONDITIONS?

The condition China imposed is that Taiwan is a subject of the Beijing central government. Since all negotiations should involve partners of equal status, China has to change its bossy attitude first.
Give me a break. Even the US talks to N.Korea. The absence of talks is rightly blamed on Mr. Chen. Why are you such an apologist for him?

[eelfliw]

I am glad you brought that up. Yes, China has demanded talked. BUT AT WHAT CONDITIONS?

The condition China imposed is that Taiwan is a subject of the Beijing central government. Since all negotiations should involve partners of equal status, China has to change its bossy attitude first.
Where did you get your info from? That is not true.

The only demand from China is that TW adhere to the agreement they reached during a meeting in 1992 (see --> http://www.npf.org.tw/monograph/books/book-002-ns.pdf I hope you can read Chinese). In 1992, low level representatives from TW & China met in Beijing and then HK and agreed that there is "one China" (and this is in-line with the constitution of both governments in China). This set the stage for future meetings. In 1993, very high level representatives from both sides met again in Singapore and agreed on a series of steps to help both sides (http://www.mac.gov.tw/big5/rpir/1_6.htm) improve co-operation and relationship. They also agreed to meet again.

Unfortunately, the pro-independence forces took over after that and halted these meetings. Things have been on hold ever since. The start of negotiations to a peaceful end to the civil war was just that... a start.

China have been calling repeatedly lately that both sides need to continue negotiations. They say EVERYTHING is on the table for discussions. The only stipulation is that TW stick to its negotiated agreement in 1992 that there is only 1 China.

However, these calls have been falling on deaf ears. The pro-independence political party derives its power and earns its votes by promoting racial tension, creating divisions in the society and generating fear ("700 missiles! You should be afraid!"). But they have refused to sit down and continue the peace talks that started 13 years ago by the then government. Instead, they were busy demonizing the other government and buying weapons (such as Mirage 2000 fighters and Lafayette Class Frigates from France). You call China's reaction "bossy attitude"?

Such is democracy in TW. It's a joke. Governments refusing to honor the agreements made by previous governments while the people and economy suffers. Dictatorship built-up Taiwan. Democracy is destroying it by electing clowns.

[eelfliw]

Maybe you could provide a source for some of this information? Everything I've read has been showing that the US has been trying to sell Taiwan F16's in particular since 1992, and has always tried to encourage Taiwan to buy the 'latest and greatest', including their Aegis destroyers. It's one thing to 'shop around', but it's something else to say that the US is refusing to sell them anything but junk. And maybe you could provide some figures that show that what the US sells to Taiwan is 'over priced', in relation to the actual cost of manufacturing and development of whatever you're referring to.
Yes. US did sell a number of F16s to Taiwan. But those are the outdated F16A & F16B models (http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article19.html). Not the latest F16E/F models.

As for Aegis destroyers, TW didn't buy that at the time. Instead, it chose France's radar-evading Lafayette class frigates. There are many reasons why Lafayette frigates were chosen. First and foremost being a massive corruption scandal that involves the former president that is still being hotly debated in TW.

[b166er1337]

Politicians are the same all over. They just achieve their goals thru different means due to different political systems and different laws.

Although we have different viewpoints, i agree with you on this one. All politicians are *******s. Where are the Gandhi of our time?

Give me a break. Even the US talks to N.Korea. The absence of talks is rightly blamed on Mr. Chen. Why are you such an apologist for him?

Right back at ya...why are you such an apologist for Chinese aggression?



Such is democracy in TW. It's a joke. Governments refusing to honor the agreements made by previous governments while the people and economy suffers. Dictatorship built-up Taiwan. Democracy is destroying it by electing clowns.

To be honest with you, there are no failures, only learning lessons in life (well that's my belief anyway). Starting democracy from scratch is no easy task. Yes, there are abusers in the system. Give more time, everything will be improved...hopefully.

By the way, policies change, government change, and people change. The first person who advocates for Taiwanese independence is, ironically, Mao Tse Tong. Why doesn't the current Chinese government continue to follow up Mao's one-timed advocate? ;)

[ronin893]

Right back at ya...why are you such an apologist for Chinese aggression?Quote me where I have ever defended the CCP. Get your facts straight (or otherwise don't make stuff up).


Give more time, everything will be improved...hopefully.

By the way, policies change, government change, and people change. The first person who advocates for Taiwanese independence is, ironically, Mao Tse Tong. Why doesn't the current Chinese government continue to follow up Mao's one-timed advocate? ;) There is one China. This is something I strongly believe in. I also believe that the government on the mainland will change/improve some day. Until that day comes, China should stay united. TW seperatists are traitors. I have no problem with TW reunificationists.

So why are you in favour of TW independence? Why do you say such moronic things as "Taiwanese is not Chinese"? What do you hope to gain from independence that TW does not already have today? A seat at the UN? Whoopity-doo!

[coolpc]

how many people talking in this thread from Taiwan?? I am one!! And I think that US is a bully since unless Taiwan use 20 nukes, or else there is no weapon that US can provide that will allow Taiwan to "defend" it self from China, if China really declare war on Taiwan.

[gman]

how many people talking in this thread from Taiwan?? I am one!! And I think that US is a bully since unless Taiwan use 20 nukes, or else there is no weapon that US can provide that will allow Taiwan to "defend" it self from China, if China really declare war on Taiwan.

It is not about defense. It is about attack. If Taiwan is attacked, the usage of the weapon is to attack the weak spot such as Hong Kong.

[mingming]

In my gut feeling (yes, a gut feeling), China will not attack TW even with all these threats of missles, etc. They wont do it. This has lasted 60 years, and it will keep going for another 60 years.

Myself, I am from HK, my parents were born in HK but my grandparents are mainland Chinese. I still have uncles, cousins, aunts, and nieces in China right now.

Yes, we left HK to Canada because of the 97 takeover. Note we left in 1990, so the Tianamen tragedy did have influence in our decision. But now, we realized the China govt is changing, and in most part have changed for the good.

Dont be mistaken, I really like Canada, but I also love my roots, China, and all Chinese people. Thats why it's sad to see people in TW so strong on independance that they somehow forget that we are all the same.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but dont TW enforce mandatory military service for young males?

[gman]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but dont TW enforce mandatory military service for young males?

Yes. Same as Singapore. I think it is common for relative small population to do so.

[b166er1337]

There is one China. This is something I strongly believe in. I also believe that the government on the mainland will change/improve some day. Until that day comes, China should stay united. TW seperatists are traitors. I have no problem with TW reunificationists.

So why are you in favour of TW independence? Why do you say such moronic things as "Taiwanese is not Chinese"? What do you hope to gain from independence that TW does not already have today? A seat at the UN? Whoopity-doo!

Traitors, Bastards, Idiots,

Dude, you are just like George W Bush where everything to you is black and white.

Taiwan doesn't have to be independent. As i said times and times before, i will belabor it again. Taiwan = Republic of China, which itself is a country and independent of People's Republic of China. We Taiwanese like to get into UN because our country is not represented and it is unfair to OUR citizens.

You can believe whatever you want to believe. But the fact today is that there are Republic of China, and People's Republic of China. Ask any grade 2 students, he will tell you that there are two China. Oh well, i am not the one who lives in denial. Besides, you said that China should stay united. JFYI, Taiwan has never been part of PRC since its formation in 1949.

In my gut feeling (yes, a gut feeling), China will not attack TW even with all these threats of missles, etc. They wont do it. This has lasted 60 years, and it will keep going for another 60 years.

Myself, I am from HK, my parents were born in HK but my grandparents are mainland Chinese. I still have uncles, cousins, aunts, and nieces in China right now.

Dont be mistaken, I really like Canada, but I also love my roots, China, and all Chinese people. Thats why it's sad to see people in TW so strong on independance that they somehow forget that we are all the same.



Don't be naive. I bet Tibetians feel that communist won't attack in the 50s. Looked what happened there.

HK people tend to feel fond toward China. That's understandable. But is it so hard to see why so few people in Taiwan favor immediate reunificaiton? Check out the two major parties' policies toward China.
Pan-Green: Keep status quo & future of Taiwan should be decided by referendum by the voters.
Pan- Blue (Nationalist): Keep status quo & seek reunification ONLY IF a strong, democratic and Free China is realized in the mainland. (which is like never)

Why does't most Taiwanese want to rejoin with the glorious motherland, you ask?
The answer is simple.
Put yourself in our situation. Imagine you grow up in a tiny island consisted of 23 million population. On the other side of the strait, one of the biggest and powerful country on the face of earth. This giant country, instead of being nice, friendly and polite, this giant ALWAYS threaten to invade us. It happens so frequently that most people get used to it. The continuation threat of force only creates resentment toward the Chinese government (and to the mainlanders in a lesser degree as well). Of course, there are some people, such as Ronin83, who think that it's Taiwanese' faults for voicing dissatisficaiton and resentment toward China. Everything has a cause. The cause of Taiwanese resentment is simply the results of Chinese government's attitude toward us.



Yes. Same as Singapore. I think it is common for relative small population to do so.

Or when a country is facing foreign threat.

[eelfliw]

The first person who advocates for Taiwanese independence is, ironically, Mao Tse Tong. Why doesn't the current Chinese government continue to follow up Mao's one-timed advocate? ;)
Now, that is another intentional mis-interpretation propagated by the pro-independence crowd to mislead the unsuspecting masses. Here's why.

Yes, Mao did advocate TW independence. But the context in which he said it was during the brutal Japanese occupation of Taiwan (http://www.tpg.gov.tw/e-english/history/history-e-2_3.htm). He had wanted TW to be independent from Japan - not China. TW was liberated on 1945 (a few days ago, TW celebrated the 60 year anniversary of its liberation) by the Chinese.

I'm glad you've brought up this example. This is a very fine example of how the pro-independence supporters mis-use information, mis-quote historical facts and take incidents out of contexts in order to construct their lies about TW's history. People who only read headlines but don't realize the historical contexts behind the headlines can easily be mislead.

[gman]

You can believe whatever you want to believe. But the fact today is that there are Republic of China, and People's Republic of China. Ask any grade 2 students, he will tell you that there are two China.
Did you actually try it?

1. most grade 2 student here will not know there are "2 China". Even grade 10 probably won't know that.
2. Are you going to use grade 2 student to guide you?


Don't be naive. I bet Tibetians feel that communist won't attack in the 50s. Looked what happened there.

I have no doubt mainland China will attack if Taiwan claims independent.


HK people tend to feel fond toward China. That's understandable. But is it so hard to see why so few people in Taiwan favor immediate reunificaiton? Check out the two major parties' policies toward China.
Pan-Green: Keep status quo & future of Taiwan should be decided by referendum by the voters.
Pan- Blue (Nationalist): Keep status quo & seek reunification ONLY IF a strong, democratic and Free China is realized in the mainland. (which is like never)

Who said immediate reunificaiton? It is the "loaded question" like the one used in Quebec. It is a question that would certainly get a 'no' for answer. Mainland China did not demand "immediate reunificaiton".

[siriuskao]

Quote me where I have ever defended the CCP. Get your facts straight (or otherwise don't make stuff up).


There is one China. This is something I strongly believe in. I also believe that the government on the mainland will change/improve some day. Until that day comes, China should stay united. TW seperatists are traitors. I have no problem with TW reunificationists.

So why are you in favour of TW independence? Why do you say such moronic things as "Taiwanese is not Chinese"? What do you hope to gain from independence that TW does not already have today? A seat at the UN? Whoopity-doo!
Because most people think Chinese as citizen of PRC and Taiwanese people are not citizen of PRC. I have no problem usingChinese to decribe my ethnicity.

[mingming]

Because most people think Chinese as citizen of PRC and Taiwanese people are not citizen of PRC. I have no problem usingChinese to decribe my ethnicity.

Hence why I think it's a shame as Chinese people (no matter from mainland, TW) that this is happening. The division is getting larger and larger. China should be one country, NOT China and TW, NOT PRC and ROC, just CHINA. REGARDLESS of political system, there should ONLY BE ONE CHINA.

[ynchu]

Did you actually try it?

1. most grade 2 student here will not know there are "2 China". Even grade 10 probably won't know that.
2. Are you going to use grade 2 student to guide you?


I have no doubt mainland China will attack if Taiwan claims independent.


Who said immediate reunificaiton? It is the "loaded question" like the one used in Quebec. It is a question that would certainly get a 'no' for answer. Mainland China did not demand "immediate reunificaiton".

That really depends on which grade 2 student you ask.
Some countries (most) don't teach their history the way I was taught. In my grade 2 years, I'd learned so many times that "as a citizen of ROC, it is our duty to rescue our relatives in mainland because they are suffering."
At the same time, the grade 2 of RPC was probably learning "the capitalist evils took over Taiwan, and it is up to you to liberate the Taiwanese people."

However, for the record, history is judged by people. Like someone had said: should KMT won the war against the communists, we wouldn't be having this argument now. In fact, if KMT actually won the war, there wouldn't be North Korea today, there wouldn't be so many immigrants in Canada today, and China would look like a leaf instead of a chicken.

And most likely we would be arguing here: are Mongolians allowed to be independent? :D

And, b166er1337, may I add, that the RPC was never part of UN until what, the 70's? After that "traitor" American president Carmen who decided to kiss whoever's-got-bigger-land's butt. Not to mention that RPC was not even the founder of UN, so who's more official? RPC because they have more power, or ROC?

ronin893, the talk between U.S and North Korean is a joke. In who's crazy mind would call the other party "axis of evil" first and whine about they wouldn't talk at all? North Koreans are funny, too. They may as well re-film super man with their chairman as the major star.

[mingming]

However, for the record, history is judged by people. Like someone had said: should KMT won the war against the communists, we wouldn't be having this argument now. In fact, if KMT actually won the war, there wouldn't be North Korea today, there wouldn't be so many immigrants in Canada today, and China would look like a leaf instead of a chicken.

Alot of immigrants in Canada are from HK or TW. Why are so many Taiwanese immigrating here as well? We still see a good share of Japanese, and Korean immigrants.

So your assumption that if KMT had won the war, then there wouldn't be so many immigrants is entirely untrue.

ronin893, the talk between U.S and North Korean is a joke. In who's crazy mind would call the other party "axis of evil" first and whine about they wouldn't talk at all? North Koreans are funny, too. They may as well re-film super man with their chairman as the major star.

Who really knows what goes on in North Korea. It is so secretive that we only see it in the eyes of Western sources. Heck it might be a paradise over there!!!

[gman]

Who really knows what goes on in North Korea. It is so secretive that we only see it in the eyes of Western sources. Heck it might be a paradise over there!!!

I am sure it is a paradise .... for at least one person.

[mingming]

I am sure it is a paradise .... for at least one person.

Wouldnt you like to be KimJongIl. He's living the life man!!! (minus the murdering, pissing off people, etc)

[charger]

the U.S. is looking out for it's own interests. It is similar to the U.S. criticizing Canada's military.

Is the U.S. government trying to make money off arms sales? Yes

The U.S. is stretched so thin militarily that it could not help out Taiwan.

I would much rather support a demecrotically elected U.S. government, republican or otherwise, than a country that has a totalitarian regime, and a poor human rights history.

I trust the U.S. government more than the Chinese government.

[ronin893]

Taiwan doesn't have to be independent. As i said times and times before, i will belabor it again. Taiwan = Republic of China, which itself is a country and independent of People's Republic of China. We Taiwanese like to get into UN because our country is not represented and it is unfair to OUR citizens.

You can believe whatever you want to believe. But the fact today is that there are Republic of China, and People's Republic of China. Ask any grade 2 students, he will tell you that there are two China. Oh well, i am not the one who lives in denial. Besides, you said that China should stay united. JFYI, Taiwan has never been part of PRC since its formation in 1949.
Any grade 2 student in the west won't even know what Taiwan is.

As I said in a previous post (in which I know for a fact that you participated), PRC != China. You are in denial that there is one China (as stated in the constitution of both the PRC and ROC). However, there are two governments; one founding the PRC and one founding the ROC. Which part of this paragraph is untrue?

I don't give a rat's ass who is the government or who has the UN seat as long as there is one China.



Why does't most Taiwanese want to rejoin with the glorious motherland, you ask?
The answer is simple.
Put yourself in our situation. Imagine you grow up in a tiny island consisted of 23 million population. On the other side of the strait, one of the biggest and powerful country on the face of earth. This giant country, instead of being nice, friendly and polite, this giant ALWAYS threaten to invade us. It happens so frequently that most people get used to it. The continuation threat of force only creates resentment toward the Chinese government (and to the mainlanders in a lesser degree as well). Of course, there are some people, such as Ronin83, who think that it's Taiwanese' faults for voicing dissatisficaiton and resentment toward China. Everything has a cause. The cause of Taiwanese resentment is simply the results of Chinese government's attitude toward us.
Wrong. Once again you can't get your facts straight. The TW independence movement began after they lost the UN seat to the PRC. The independence movement is not related to PRC's attitude towards ROC but rather the international community's "downgrading" of the ROC.

[ynchu]

Why are there so many Taiwanese and HK immigrants?
What happened to Hong Kong during the year 97? And what happened to Taiwan in 96? 95?

In 96, our brothers in Mainland shot two missles over Taiwan to the Pacific ocean, doesn't sound scary enough?
In 95, the RPC government was said to have secret plans to invade Taiwan during the month of August. Turned out that it didn't happen.

So let's imagine if KMT won the civil war instead. Let's also assume that Mainland China was developed the way Taiwan was developed between 1950 ~ 1980.

1. There wouldn't be so many HK people rushing out before 97, since China would've been a free country.
2. There wouldn't be so many Taiwanese around, either in Taiwan, or Canada. Instead, you'll see more Chinese around simply because of environmental differentials between Canada and China.
3. There wouldn't be two Korea, which implies
4. The history wouldn't record the Korean war, and then
5. The U.S likely would've won the Viet. war, and
6.1 Cold war would most likely ended earlier, since China would be U.S friendly and the Russians would be pressured by its neighbor, or
6.2 The Russians bombed China with 200 nukes, end of humanity.
7.1 The world becomes a better place, and we can start space exploration - and start building the first Enterprise! :D

Alot of immigrants in Canada are from HK or TW. Why are so many Taiwanese immigrating here as well? We still see a good share of Japanese, and Korean immigrants.

So your assumption that if KMT had won the war, then there wouldn't be so many immigrants is entirely untrue.



Who really knows what goes on in North Korea. It is so secretive that we only see it in the eyes of Western sources. Heck it might be a paradise over there!!!

[ynchu]

I don't give a rat's ass who is the government or who has the UN seat as long as there is one China.

Wrong. Once again you can't get your facts straight. The TW independence movement began after they lost the UN seat to the PRC. The independence movement is not related to PRC's attitude towards ROC but rather the international community's "downgrading" of the ROC.

Say that to any Taiwanese you know. 5 out of 10 will take it as an offense.

Wrong. The Taiwan independence movement started in year 1987, as part of the constitution of now Chen's DPP party. The KMT never had anything to do with it. All KMT wanted was the awareness of ROC is the original China followed Dr. Sun's designs, and RPC != ROC. Reason? Whenever RPC took an ally from ROC, RPC forces the ally to admit there could be only one China, and ROC (Taiwan) is part of RPC. Partnering up with other countries is alright, but the denial of ROC's existance is not right.

Reference: http://www.dpp.org.tw/
Hope you people know how to read Traditional Chinese characters.

[gman]

Say that to any Taiwanese you know. 5 out of 10 will take it as an offense.

Wrong. The Taiwan independence movement started in year 1987, as part of the constitution of now Chen's DPP party. The KMT never had anything to do with it. All KMT wanted was the awareness of ROC is the original China followed Dr. Sun's designs, and RPC != ROC. Reason? Whenever RPC took an ally from ROC, RPC forces the ally to admit there could be only one China, and ROC (Taiwan) is part of RPC. Partnering up with other countries is alright, but the denial of ROC's existance is not right.

Reference: http://www.dpp.org.tw/
Hope you people know how to read Traditional Chinese characters.

You are kidding me, right? Taiwan independence movement was long before 1987. The difference was KMT put the members of the independence movement to jail as political prisoner back then (or murdered). Remember Taiwan Freedom League? the Declaration of Taiwan Independence written by Professor Peng Ming-min in 1964? Do you know how many of the current political characters were in jail back then?

Or, you only read DPP documentation only?

[b166er1337]

You are kidding me, right? Taiwan independence movement was long before 1987. The difference was KMT put the members of the independence movement to jail as political prisoner back then (or murdered). Remember Taiwan Freedom League? the Declaration of Taiwan Independence written by Professor Peng Ming-min in 1964? Do you know how many of the current political characters were in jail back then?

Or, you only read DPP documentation only?

Wow Gman...you really are a smart dude!
You are quite knowledgable regarding this matter...cool!
Were you the guy from the rally last weekend?? :D

Now, that is another intentional mis-interpretation propagated by the pro-independence crowd to mislead the unsuspecting masses. Here's why.

Yes, Mao did advocate TW independence. But the context in which he said it was during the brutal Japanese occupation of Taiwan (http://www.tpg.gov.tw/e-english/history/history-e-2_3.htm). He had wanted TW to be independent from Japan - not China.

Thx bro, you pointed out my mistakes. I am glad you did.
Maos advocate of Taiwanese Indepedence was under a different context than today's.

However, the same can be said about the 1992 consensus. It was done in a different context as well. This is the year 2005 and so much has changed in the last 13 years. It's time now for a new consensus, don't you think?



So let's imagine if KMT won the civil war instead. Let's also assume that Mainland China was developed the way Taiwan was developed between 1950 ~ 1980.


3. There wouldn't be two Korea, which implies
4. The history wouldn't record the Korean war, and then
5. The U.S likely would've won the Viet. war, and
6.1 Cold war would most likely ended earlier, since China would be U.S friendly and the Russians would be pressured by its neighbor, or
6.2 The Russians bombed China with 200 nukes, end of humanity.
7.1 The world becomes a better place, and we can start space exploration - and start building the first Enterprise! :D
Have anyone of you guys visited http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/?
This is a great site for possible alternative history. Check it out if you have time.

In my version where KMT won the civil war against Communists, the following will take place:

1) There will only be one Korea since North Korea wouldnt be reinforced by Chinese troop and the UN forces easily triumphed.
2) However, US would still likely to lose Vietnam war since Soviet Union didn't want to make the same mistakes as they did on the Korean war. Soviet union, therefore, provided a lot more weapons and also sent more advisors to the aid of Vietcong.
3) Another revolution broke out in China. KMT was so heavily corrupted that a neo-communist party waged a new civil war against the ruling party at the end of Vietnam War. After the defeat in Vietnam, USA decided that it didn't have the extra resource to help the naitonalist. KMT lost thw ear easily. Vietnamese invaded and occupied part of southwestern China. Soviet Union took Manchuria and encouraged Tibet, inner Mongolia, Xingjiang and Taiwan to declare independence. A new socialist state would be created. Since there is no culture revolution & great leap forward takes place, Chinese enjoyed a certain degree of freedom (but no democracy). The new China loosely allied with Soviet Union but still kept ties with USA.
- As cold war ended, neo-communist party realized that dictatorship may not last long. It began a series of democratic reform. As of year 2005, Chinese are eligable to vote for senators, who in turn votes for the leader.


gosh...the world is such a better place with KMT won the initial civil war. :lol:

[manixc]

gosh...the world is such a better place with KMT won the initial civil war. :lol:

so why did KMT lose? Were they really that corrupted ?

[ronin893]

In 96, our brothers in Mainland shot two missles over Taiwan to the Pacific ocean, doesn't sound scary enough? It's just sabre-rattling. They were trying to affect TW's first ever national election. But it backfired because it caused the Taiwanese to vote more for Pan-Green. Since the day you were born, how many countries have the PRC attacked? Umm, none? How many did the USA attack? More than the number of fingers you have on one hand.

In 95, the RPC government was said to have secret plans to invade Taiwan during the month of August. Turned out that it didn't happen. The US have secret plans to invade Canada. Those plans may not be as thoroughly thought out as PRC's plans but they exist. In fact, I would be very surprised if any powerful country does not have secret plans to invade a neighbor. A typical Taiwanese is more likely to die from a typhoon event or earthquake than a PRC invasion. Get real.

1. There wouldn't be so many HK people rushing out before 97, since China would've been a free country.
2. There wouldn't be so many Taiwanese around, either in Taiwan, or Canada. Instead, you'll see more Chinese around simply because of environmental differentials between Canada and China.
3. There wouldn't be two Korea, which implies
4. The history wouldn't record the Korean war, and then
5. The U.S likely would've won the Viet. war, and
6.1 Cold war would most likely ended earlier, since China would be U.S friendly and the Russians would be pressured by its neighbor, or
6.2 The Russians bombed China with 200 nukes, end of humanity.
7.1 The world becomes a better place, and we can start space exploration - and start building the first Enterprise! :D1. There wouldn't be so many people in HK in the first place because there would not have been an exodus to HK in '49. Did you think there was only an exodus to Taiwan?
2. Yeah, if there was no conscription, there wouldn't be so many Taiwanese in Canada.
3. There would still be two Koreas. Korea was split in '45 at the end of WW2. (Read your history books again.) The PRC was founded in '49.
4. Agree, there would be no Korean War.
5. No, the US would be even less committed to the Vietnam War. The US saw the big "evil communism" spreading in the Far East and reacted in fear. (Note that Canada did not join Vietnam because Canada did not feel it was a justified war.) If China and N.Korea was not communist, the US would not have reacted so strongly to Vietnam.
6. No idea, but China would have tried to stay neutral like Scandanavia, thus it would have no effect on the Cold War.
7. The US would not have propped up Taiwan and foreign investment would have gone to the Mainland. Therefore, Taiwan would have been a second class Chinese province and people around the world would know of Taiwan like they know of Sri Lanka.

[ronin893]

so why did KMT lose? Were they really that corrupted ?The communists had grassroots support. The KMT were supported by their elitist friends from within China and outside. Why did you think the US propped them up? Well, that was back then. Now, the communists are just as corrupt and the US can be friends with them too.

[gman]

The communist is nowhere near the corruption of KMT was (relatively speaking, instead of how much money, of course). US granted a lot of money to KMT to help its economy and fighting communist. KMT was supposed to buy food, medicine, weapon and supplies. The inlaw of Chiang were in high level ministers. They took almost all the grants to their personally pocket. If US gave him a million, they might only give a thousand out and the rest somehow redirect to their own pocket. US also send a team to investigate but they did not provide any founding to the public ... for political reason.

[eelfliw]

However, the same can be said about the 1992 consensus. It was done in a different context as well. This is the year 2005 and so much has changed in the last 13 years. It's time now for a new consensus, don't you think?

As long as the 2 sides sit down at the same table and start talking to each other again for the purpose of peaceful resolution to this 60+ year old standoff, I'm all for it. The 1.3 billion (give or take a few million) ordinary people have been suffering too long for the wishes of a few.

[ynchu]

The communist is nowhere near the corruption of KMT was (relatively speaking, instead of how much money, of course). US granted a lot of money to KMT to help its economy and fighting communist. KMT was supposed to buy food, medicine, weapon and supplies. The inlaw of Chiang were in high level ministers. They took almost all the grants to their personally pocket. If US gave him a million, they might only give a thousand out and the rest somehow redirect to their own pocket. US also send a team to investigate but they did not provide any founding to the public ... for political reason.

Any supporting documents? I'd love to read those things...

[gman]

Any supporting documents? I'd love to read those things...

Seagrave, Sterling. The Soong Dynasty: 1996, Corgi Books, ISBN 0-552-14108-9

Chaing's wife: Soong May-ling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soong_May-ling)
Chaing's brother-in-law: T.V. Soong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._V._Soong) In the Kuomintang-controlled government he served as governor of the Central Bank of China and minister of finance (1928 - 1931, 1932 - 1933); minister of foreign affairs (1942 - 1945); and president of the Executive Yuan (1945 - 1947).
Chaing's father-in-law: Charlie Soong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Soong). He had nothing to do with the corruption but the web page gives you links of his daughters and sons.

Chiang's sister-in-law: Soong Ai-Ling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soong_Ai-ling). The eldest daughter of Soong family and the wife of H.H. Kung. Kung family was yet another power house in that era. Soong Ai-Ling was also the main mastermind of the corruption. H.H. Kung long served in the Republic of China government as minister of industry and commerce (1928–1931), minister of finance (1933–1944), and governor of the Central Bank of China (1933–1945). He joined the central executive committee of the Kuomintang in 1931. Soong Ai-ling also arranged one sister to marry Sun Yat Sen, the founding father of Republic of China and arranged another sister to marry Chiang Kai Shek.

Chaing, Soong and Kung were 3 power families linked tightly together in that era. It is pretty easy for you see who was controlling the money. They are probably still among the richest families in Taiwan right now.