Prediction on the Raptors?

[sorceress]

i think they are going to to even worse than last season because of the crappy drafts and 2 good players left. (alston and marshall)
They will finish last in the east division
that's just my prediction of course i do not want that to happen i am canadian but babcock and mitchell really screwed up the raps in my opinion what do you think?

[rdtx2002]

i think they are going to to even worse than last season because of the crappy drafts and 2 good players left. (alston and marshall)
They will finish last in the east division
that's just my prediction of course i do not want that to happen i am canadian but babcock and mitchell really screwed up the raps in my opinion what do you think?

what crappy drafts?.. just because those names are not Danny Granger and Gerald Green? so you even watch NCAA or study the game behind the players that were selected? or are you one of those fans what will agree with Steven A. Smith and Dave Feschuk?

whatever man...

we got what we needed this offseason.. a guy that can rebound in CV3.. 2 PGs in Calderon and Ukic.. and defensive 3 with some offensive skill in Joey Graham.

maybe the Hoffa draft was crappy.. but this years draft made the Raptors a younger and better team defensively (which we lacked last year).

to say Mitchell and Babcock screwed the team is stupid.. look what Babcock had to start with... overpaid long term contracts..

[johnnyepy]

don't know much . but, pretty sure no playoffs for sure

[rdtx2002]

don't know much . but, pretty sure no playoffs for sure

that is 'almost' a given ;)

[gillianchung]

PS: I want to say that Jalen Rose was a overpaid long term contract. To become full rebuilding mode, our first thing to do was to trade away Jalen even if it was packaged with VC and he got shafted in it. There's no way you can rebuild with a 14 mill/year player that shouldn't make close to that and makes even MORE than VC. VC's contract was NOT a overpaid long term contract. He signed for a lot less than many MAX contracts, for about 12 mill/year. His stats, eventhough he was somewhat injury prone and whiney, deserved around the 8-12mill regardless. I hate it when people think we overpaid VC. We didn't, his jerseys make a lot of money for us. Rose on the otherhand, don't sell many jerseys. I know we were stuck with Lamond Murray, but that's because we don't play him, we don't showcase him, actually Mitchell refused to showcase our crappy players, including VC. Lamond's still a servicable player, and the Nets will prove and i'm positive, that he can still make shots. (he's IMHO better than AWill, who we really should've waived)
Saying that we were stuck in a bad situation therefore we should forgive Babcock's mistakes is saying because a guy grew up in a bad neighbourhood, we should forgive him for dealing drugs. Some people's logic baffles me. MISTAKES are fxxking mistakes. Alonzo was a MISTAKE. Do you get that at all? GG didn't bring Crippled Alonzo whom everyone in Toronto including the media KNEW he wasn't going to play here. That was downright idiotic to take on his contract. So you're saying that you'd rather have Alonzo than VC's contract? Give me a break. Stop defending Babcock.

On the other hand, for people who didn't like the draft (I didn't like it at first too, but now I'm optimistic), why do you think joey grambo sucks? have you ever saw him play? we need magloire bad, but we're not in a horrific situation YET.

we feel bad coz we're stupid enough to give VC away to the nets which are division rivals, and we're stupid enough to get back stupid alonzo cripple mourning.

we're stupid to give alston a huge contract and never realize his distraction, so we traded him away.

we're stupid to trade for eric williams coz his wife died and he wanted to take care of his children in new jersey and not leave. (that was why he signed with NJ nets for less money)

we're stupid to draft aruajo at #8, (coz no one would've drafted him at #8) and because iguodala would've been a MUCH better (and consensus with the mocks) pick. Iguodala is VC's friend too, which again, not picking Iggy made VC really pissed. Imagine Iggy + VC......Insane dunking combo.

Babcock also was stupid for drafting for need. That's a cardinal sin for GMs....he knows it, we all know it, yet he picked Araujo just because of that. This year he drafted CV but in a position we didn't need him AT ALL because we already got sufficient talent there (and he wasn't expected to be picked that high, it would've been ok if he was mocked around that spot, but he wasn't, which makes it look like Babcock deliberately drafted CV so no one would think he was drafting for need).

CV is a crapshoot....I'm not sure what he brings to the table. He can be as good as Odom or as bad as "predicted Kevin Garnett clone on draft night" Jerome Moiso. We all know how good KG-clone Jerome Moiso is.

In one year, Babcock has made some detrimental mistakes. Matt Bonner should have been a team option this year, as all 2nd rounders should be given a team option on the contract (he would've 100% taken it then, since he wasn't regarded well then).

Babcock's reluctance to realize we NEED a center brings tears to our eyes. He doesn't realize that teams that actually win the championships don't have Iverson or Nash, they have Shaq, they have Wallace, they have Duncan. Back in the days it was Ewing, Olajuwon. With the exception of MJ (Luc Longley was solid but not a real star), it was almost always the case. And certainly Araujo is not in the same league of Magloires, Nazrs, Currys....the average to above average centers.

Frankly, Sam Mitchell is perceived as a good coach, but really, he hasn't really coached before. He preaches hard work, yet our defense has been horrifically bad (especially compared to Lenny Wilkens we had before). Jim Todd, his assistant, was a coach in LA Clippers land if you guys remember, and he went a cool and successful 10% winning percentage... winning 3 and losing about 33.

We all know how Pete Babcock destroyed the once famed Atlanta Hawks. Now the kids know it as the Atlanta C*cks because of how well Pete Babcock manged the team. Now Pete is in Toronto, happily trying his best to maybe...just maybe...get it out of Toronto? The trading of VC resembles the lopsided trade of Dominique Wilkens....which was the turning point and the scar of the Hawks.

I know we are rebuilding. Rebuilding doesn't mean buying out contracts. It doesn't mean trading for players who have family responsibilities (Eric Will), who are way past their prime (AWill), who are known trouble makers of the law and went to court for violence and signing him to a 6 year contract (R Alston).

I know players have baggage that sometimes should be overlooked, but in EWill, and Rafer's example, those are inexcusable mistakes.

Anyone in management who loses 10 million dollars due to a buyout of a contract for Alzo, would be fired.

I don't think we should hold Rob Babcock in any higher regard.

People who think Babcock is competent shouldn't be in management. Because management does not tolerate GMs that say "we're gonna suck more this year coz i'm in charge and we're rebuilding", and they don't make excuses like "I was working with the Timberwolves before and we didn't have a first round pick because of our penalty. That's why we didn't scout and so I picked Araujo".

BS.

Anyone with a capable mind wouldn't have made those mistakes. Ask anyone out there if they would have made the VC trade. When the media said that day "There's more to it to this VC trade, something special is going to happen for sure." I knew that was BS. I was frustrated, I watched the news conference on the Score when Babcock was saying "I got to go to my Xmas party", I knew what an @$$head he was.

I'm not down on the team. I'm positive we're not going to be bottom dwellers this year, but close to it. And in my opinion, that sucks coz I do want a higher chance to get the 1st overall pick next year for Rudy Gay.

Our own pick right now is owed to the Bobcats though. So we're going to pray and pray that Nuggets suck this year. That's because Babcock thinks the Nuggets suck too, that's why he wanted that 1st rounder for the VC trade.

My prediction: Raptors going to be better than the Bobcats, Hawks, Hornets. That's about it.

Positives: Lucky we're not the New York D*icks. They're in cap hell for a long time thanks to Isiah.

Negatives: Babcock has one year to turn this team around, and his first priority is getting rid of Jalen Rose for expires. If he does that (which I seriously doubt he has the capability), then I'll believe we're in a real rebuilding mode.

Alvin doesn't seem to want to retire (I hope he can make a comeback, but it is very unlikely, even if he does, he won't play near to his capacity before), but his salary is pretty detrimental. I agree his contract sucked. With the new CBA, if Alvin announces retirement, we'll have some more money to spend next year, and also save up for Magloire.

Outlook: D-

Rebuilding mode: C+ (i like the draft picks, because I don't think Gerald Green would have signed a contract extension with us even if we did pick him and he becomes TMac 2)

[rdtx2002]

to be fair.. no one could have predicted that Rafer would blow up a few times.. at least we got rid of the contract and got someone else that is less of a headache and has a shorter contract.

Eric Williams was part of the VC deal.. anyhow.. ERic Williams had a change of heart over the summer and will bring it 100% this year for the Raptors.. Alonzo Mourning was a throw in.. you know it.. I know it.. Mouring was only part of the deal because the contracts didn't match.. Rob Babcock knew about it. We finally waived Mourning twice and his contract is not part of the books anymore. The key to the VC deal was the 2 1st round picks.. and it so happens one of them became Joey Graham.. Now.. if Graham becomes a star in the league.. would people then think the VC deal was bad?.. probably not.

and also to be fair.. it was VC that lowered his own trade value.

Rob Babcock has been in the league for 18 years.. that counts for something.. maybe you don't agree with the dealings that have happen.. but we'll see if it pans out.. if it does.. i'm sure you'll give Rob Babcock his just props for doing a good job.

Rob Babcock is working in the NBA because he is good at it.. we are only armchair GMs that are thinking that being a GM is easy

[gillianchung]

Rafer has gone to anger management classes because of his engagements with violating the law. 6 years for someone with baggage...I would only do it with Spreewell & Artest type talent. Rafer was never ever close to that type of talent. And even if he was Spree's talent...3-4 years max.

Eric Williams was a huge risk. If you are trading for somebody, you should know their background, why they signed with NJ for less money, I'm an armchair GM and you know what....most people that follow the NBA KNEW EWills situtation. I feel bad for him coz he wants to be with his son, who had just lost a mother.

Pete Babcock has been in the league for a long time too. Does that means he's capable? Oh God.....I hope you don't think he's something to be proud about. Like I said, just look at the Hawks. (look at the rebuilding Babcock did there)

Babcock's mistakes far outweigh what future potential his picks will bring. You're saying that Babcock is a genious if Joey Graham turns out to be the next MJ? Chicago's GM back then(the nets GM now, that Mr. Rod Thorn that screwed us) admitted he would have picked Sam Bowie over MJ if Bowie wasn't picked. He just followed the mocks and then certified it with his scouting, and MJ was right after Bowie on the mocks. No one would have imagined MJ's talent, or even Amare's talent. The point being if Babcock's picks turn out well, he's lucky, if it doesn't pan out he's going to be fired. It's as simple as that now. We can't say "oh you got Graham + CV for VC, that's a good trade". COZ it's NOT!!! It's "Graham + CV + crippled Zo and his bloated contract + Over the hill AWill + Unhappy EWill who says he changed attitudes". You have to balance it out. More less intelligent people will think that if Graham becomes an all-star, Babcock is some kind of God-send to Toronto. Um...it doesn't work that way. A good GM would optimize assets now and assets in the future, for example getting expiring contracts or an all-star and picks for VC. We got basically 2 midrange picks, 1 mediocre player, 1 good player that's crippled with a huge contract and wouldn't play for us (AND WE KNEW HE WOULDN'T PLAY), and 1 solid player that seriously had family issues. Good optimization eh? To say Alonzo was stuck in to balance the salaries is a JOKE. He's more liability than anything. We should have received the Nets pick just based on taking Alonzo, anything less, is what he have, a lopsided, laughable, one of the worst NBA trades in NBA history.

Someone in the league in 18 years and making that VC deal is more of an embarassment if you ask me. Bob McCowan, a regular sports talk host, wouldn't make such a deal, coz even HE KNEW AZO wouldn't PLAY. A deal like this can only be done in NBA Live where there's "Quantity > Quality" issue. IMHO, there's just no justification in it.

I see some people raving about picks.....the percentage of success in the first round is very low out of the lottery unless you're top 5 (yes there are exceptions, but statistically and historically it's VERY FEW). Trying to draft a Magloire talent is few and far between, yet we seem to be very content in drafting picks. I'm not saying they are bad, but when you get shafted just for getting 2 1st rounders (and not even the Clippers or the Nets picks)....getting AZo's contract deserves at least the Clipper's pick in my opinion.

VC lowered his trade value...but did we HAVE to trade him before Xmas? Why not wait until the deadline? He was injured then, of course his value was down. He still had years on his contract...so what if we don't trade him. He'll have to play better to show he's worth it. (He was, at the lowest point, getting about 12 points per game, which isn't really that horrific. What is horrific? Look at AWill's stats. We traded for him.)

There was no reason to trade him. We didn't get what we need the most back, which was someone to start with Bosh in the front court, a center. It is VERY rare that you can draft a good center, unless you have the FIRST OVERALL pick. It's been that way for years in the NBA. You trade for good centers or grab them in free agency.

I forgot about Donyell. A lateral move + a 2nd rounder would have made sense. But Babcock is a laughing stock in the NBA. Do you know that? If you know anyone who works in another NBA organization even in the lower ranks, Babcock is regarded as a bad GM due to the VC trade. No one wants to trade with him without ripping him off. That's his reputation. Babcock wanted Iggy straight up for Donyell, I don't think any other GM is as idiotic as he was. Seriously.

So I hear some of you saying "WELL VC WASN'T HAPPY HERE, HE DEMANDED A TRADE, THEREFORE WE TRADE HIM." I demand you give me some money too, give it to me. He's on a contact. So you say "WELL HE WON'T PLAY WELL IF HE ISN'T HAPPY". EWill ain't happy either. Alonzo was so distraught he went back to his home in Florida. On the other hand, AWill's VERY HAPPY, he also has a considerably bloated contract and doesn't really have to work for it. So you trade 1 unhappy camper for 2 unhappy campers.

Now come on, with the Toronto media, if you were to ask me in the summer if I was E Will of course I'd say I changed attitudes. Babcock doesn't look willing to trade, and other GMs will just try to rip him off on every call. I doubt EWill is any happier or enjoy being away from his family.

If you have Raptors TV, I recommend you guys watch "Behind the Draft". Babcock was so happy about not trading Araujo's pick for Antonio Daniels (People who know the NBA should know he's a pretty good player right?) + 12th overall pick that same year (that would for sure get Araujo and we wouldn't boo him if we got him at 12th, coz we wouldn't have as high expectations)!!! We're all pretty positive Araujo was gonna be there, only the Jazz wanted him around the 15th pick.

Now, that's 18 years of experience for you.


to be fair.. no one could have predicted that Rafer would blow up a few times.. at least we got rid of the contract and got someone else that is less of a headache and has a shorter contract.

Eric Williams was part of the VC deal.. anyhow.. ERic Williams had a change of heart over the summer and will bring it 100% this year for the Raptors.. Alonzo Mourning was a throw in.. you know it.. I know it.. Mouring was only part of the deal because the contracts didn't match.. Rob Babcock knew about it. We finally waived Mourning twice and his contract is not part of the books anymore. The key to the VC deal was the 2 1st round picks.. and it so happens one of them became Joey Graham.. Now.. if Graham becomes a star in the league.. would people then think the VC deal was bad?.. probably not.

and also to be fair.. it was VC that lowered his own trade value.

Rob Babcock has been in the league for 18 years.. that counts for something.. maybe you don't agree with the dealings that have happen.. but we'll see if it pans out.. if it does.. i'm sure you'll give Rob Babcock his just props for doing a good job.

Rob Babcock is working in the NBA because he is good at it.. we are only armchair GMs that are thinking that being a GM is easy

[gillianchung]

The key to the VC deal was the 2 1st round picks.. and it so happens one of them became Joey Graham.. Now.. if Graham becomes a star in the league.. would people then think the VC deal was bad?.. probably not.

and also to be fair.. it was VC that lowered his own trade value.

Rob Babcock has been in the league for 18 years.. that counts for something.. maybe you don't agree with the dealings that have happen.. but we'll see if it pans out.. if it does.. i'm sure you'll give Rob Babcock his just props for doing a good job.

Rob Babcock is working in the NBA because he is good at it.. we are only armchair GMs that are thinking that being a GM is easy


I compare your Babcock comparison to playing McDonald's monopoly. I eat and eat McDonald's monopoly I get real fat and unhealthy. You say if I win the 1 million Boardwalk prize, I'm a genius, so what i'm doing getting FAT AND UNHEALTHY is being a genius. HELLO, Earth to You, I haven't won that 1 million Boardwalk prize (Graham isn't an all-star yet, it's all speculation). So don't give me props. I have a CHANCE to win it. But I'm being a stupid @ss eating all that crap down (Williams + Alonzo). You get what I mean? Logic. Make logical arguments to defend Babcock. I know it's hard. Because I can't seem to think of one.

Even if I win the 1 million, it was stupid to eat all that McDonalds crap. It's gonna make me die early (get his @ss fired). That doesn't justify I'm a genius. That is called lucky. Anything Babcock does in the draft that results in anything substantial....is lucky. Hence, the Sam Bowie example with Rod Thorn.

There's a huge problem in some people's perception of what's reality and what is potential. Reality now is we have a crappy team. What are we living in? Reality. Potential is as good as Kevin Garnett clone Jerome Moiso. We're not the LA Clippers (and we shouldn't think like them, but some fans sure are starting to). We don't need to think every lottery pick we have is going to land an all-star or MJ. VC is not someone that pops up in every draft, and we were lucky to draft (well trade) for him. We need better players in reality, and I hope fans aren't thinking LA Clippers mindset, they got the damn Lakers to cheer for once in a while. We don't.

If you want to see how potential turns into reality during a rebuilding phrase, you don't have to look far in what the Indiana Pacers, Suns, Heat and Pistons did during their rebuilding phrases. Pacers had AD, had Rose, and a bunch of other wannabes before they changed. Compare them to the Babcock regime. Then come back and tell me their mistakes, their trades, and their philosophy. Take a look at how many mistakes they made, and what they did in 1 year to turn a franchise around. Then maybe you won't be such a Babcock fan.

I've been watching NBA since the Ewing era, and few GMs I can think of has made so many mistakes in such a short timespan. Only other GM I can think of during that time was Pete Babcock, and he was notorious before anyone knew in Toronto who Rob Babcock was. Being a GM isn't easy, for sure. But being one as Bad as Babcock isn't easy either. It takes horrible luck and horrific detrimental decision making.

It wouldn't hurt if he'd improve his PR relations with the media either. Sometimes he should just shut up. Like the "we're going to lose more this season than last season" statement, just what we need the SEASON TICKET holders to hear.

[Hanniganite]

Posts too long for me to read, and I'm fairly certain it's the same old hating anyways (unless it's in defense of Babcock and the team, in which case it's the same as my state of mind so reading isn't necessary either :cheesygri )

Anyhoo...my prediction is they finish 36-46 or better. It's optimistic but I like to think that the core of the team (Mitchell included) are now in their second year together which helps in terms of being on the same page. Yes, 3 rookies + a new PG will make things a little more difficult but I think they've got the hard workers and talent to surprise some teams. Other teams (not to mention the media and "fans") might write them off which is more reason for them to surprise people.

[Anessa]

Last in the Atlantic divison.

[gillianchung]

If you guys want to know how good our players is....and people who know the NBA know some GMs consult Rosenbaum for statistical analysis, you will see how good our Rose, Matt Bonner, and Marshall really is.

http://www.82games.com/rosenbaum3.htm

Matt Bonner was the worst PF last year in +/-, hence no one was actively trying to sign this guy. He's not really that bad due to small amount of data analysis on him, but he's no Ron Artest either.

Rose is the most famous "worst defender" in the NBA now.

Donyell isn't much better in the defensive category either.

Iggy, the guy we didn't picked, was 3rd best in +/-, he doesn't need to put up huge offensive numbers, the guy can hold his own.

And Babcock lovers just can't face reality that he's a horrible GM.

And for VC haters:

"Paul Pierce and Vince Carter are often criticized for not giving full effort on the defensive end, but their teams have played better defense when they are in the game. Notice that both are brought up by the adjusted plus/minus ratings. On the defensive end, they do not appear to be stat whores."

[mallik]

Those posts are too long. You could've just said that every negative thing in the history of the world, from the Spanish Flu to World War 2, was Babcock's fault.

Seriously though, from the parts that I did read, I noticed a few things. You mention the VC trade ad nauseum, well what do you think the Raps could've gotten for him? You think teams are going to give up their top talent for a guy who was a shadow of his former self and constantly injured? Eric Williams, the guy you speak so highly of, had almost similar stats to VC at the time of the trade. And btw, VC signed a max contract, so I don't know where you get this idea that VC signed for less than max money.

You mention that Babcock should've packaged Rose with VC for salary relief. You think most teams have almost $30 million to give back the other way in a deal? Even if they did, were they going to back good talent for taking on an injured whiner and Rose's contract?

The fact is that Babcock got Carter for salary relief and draft picks. Yes he took on Mourning's contract, which I didn't like, but it was to get salaries matching, which is the nature of making trades in the NBA. When the Lakers traded Shaq, not only did they get less coming back the other way, they had to take on Brian Grant's contract to get salaries matching, and his contract was way worse than Mourning's. So again, if the Lakers got that for Shaq, what did you expect to get for VC?

You contradict yourself like crazy. You keep ranting about the Hoffa pick, but then you say the percentage of success in drafting outside of the top 5 is very low. You keep saying how much of an albatross Rose's contract is, but then you say to trade him for expiring contracts. You think it's that easy to get back 14 million in expiring contracts? You think GM's are tripping over themselves to trade for Rose?

I don't have time to go through the rest of it right now, but I would love to see you as GM of a team. Then maybe you could get a dose of reality of how things work.

[rdtx2002]

If you guys want to know how good our players is....and people who know the NBA know some GMs consult Rosenbaum for statistical analysis, you will see how good our Rose, Matt Bonner, and Marshall really is.

http://www.82games.com/rosenbaum3.htm

Matt Bonner was the worst PF last year in +/-, hence no one was actively trying to sign this guy. He's not really that bad due to small amount of data analysis on him, but he's no Ron Artest either.

Rose is the most famous "worst defender" in the NBA now.

Donyell isn't much better in the defensive category either.

Iggy, the guy we didn't picked, was 3rd best in +/-, he doesn't need to put up huge offensive numbers, the guy can hold his own.

And Babcock lovers just can't face reality that he's a horrible GM.

And for VC haters:

"Paul Pierce and Vince Carter are often criticized for not giving full effort on the defensive end, but their teams have played better defense when they are in the game. Notice that both are brought up by the adjusted plus/minus ratings. On the defensive end, they do not appear to be stat whores."


Iggy would have been riding the bench if he was drafted.. we were loaded at the SF position with MoPete, Rose and Carter.

i don't see where you are going with this

VC lowered his trade value...but did we HAVE to trade him before Xmas? Why not wait until the deadline? He was injured then, of course his value was down. He still had years on his contract...so what if we don't trade him. He'll have to play better to show he's worth it. (He was, at the lowest point, getting about 12 points per game, which isn't really that horrific. What is horrific? Look at AWill's stats. We traded for him.)

so you are comparing Vince Carter, a top NBA All-Star vote getter to Arron Williams?..

that is kind of a lame comparison.

Why wait for the trade deadline when it is clearly evident that Vince Carter was a MAJOR distraction.. did you even realize that Chris Bosh started to get better AFTER VC left?.. did you realize that the team played just as good when VC left?.

Face it man.. the longer VC stayed on the team.. the more worse of a deal we would have gotten.. and let me remind you this... the PREMISE of the VC deal was finding a team that would give 2 first round picks.. and NJ stepped up to the plate.

and in regards to Rose and VC traded together... what can you possibly get for those two?.. there was that deal with NO that fell apart because ROSE was part of the deal.

started like this.. VC and Magloire were main pieces.. add Rose.. NO adds Jamal Mashburn... other bits and pieces.. dead deal.

now.. as yourself this.. had the Magloire/VC/Rose/Mashburn deal went throught.. you still would be bashing Rob Babcock because we got Mashburn, a player with a serious knee injury and hasn't played for a long time.

I'm sorry.. but I can't say you really understand how the NBA 'really' works.. you can't just trade Rose's 14 million for expiring contracts.. no one in the NBA would make that deal with you unless you got one of their 'bad' contracts in return.


the rest of your dribble i won't comment.. mallik basically said what i was goign to say.

[rdtx2002]

I guess what some people don't see is that there is now a foundation set for the rebuilding of the Raptors

you have a young nucleus of players in Bosh, CV3, Graham, Calderon, Ukic, Hoffa, Sow.

you have tons of cap space being freed up next year and the year after, then you can go after big ticket items.

could you have said that last year?.. nope.

could we trade Rose?.. maybe.. but i'd rather let his contract expire so that we don't take a chance on getting a bad contract back

[gillianchung]

so you are comparing Vince Carter, a top NBA All-Star vote getter to Arron Williams?..

that is kind of a lame comparison.

Why wait for the trade deadline when it is clearly evident that Vince Carter was a MAJOR distraction.. did you even realize that Chris Bosh started to get better AFTER VC left?.. did you realize that the team played just as good when VC left?.

Face it man.. the longer VC stayed on the team.. the more worse of a deal we would have gotten.. and let me remind you this... the PREMISE of the VC deal was finding a team that would give 2 first round picks.. and NJ stepped up to the plate.

and in regards to Rose and VC traded together... what can you possibly get for those two?.. there was that deal with NO that fell apart because ROSE was part of the deal.

started like this.. VC and Magloire were main pieces.. add Rose.. NO adds Jamal Mashburn... other bits and pieces.. dead deal.

now.. as yourself this.. had the Magloire/VC/Rose/Mashburn deal went throught.. you still would be bashing Rob Babcock because we got Mashburn, a player with a serious knee injury and hasn't played for a long time.

I'm sorry.. but I can't say you really understand how the NBA 'really' works.. you can't just trade Rose's 14 million for expiring contracts.. no one in the NBA would make that deal with you unless you got one of their 'bad' contracts in return.


the rest of your dribble i won't comment.. mallik basically said what i was goign to say.

I compare it cause it was a LAME trade that Babcock made. He was better not to have made it. And with the season we have, you really thought we were BETTER off?

Trying to get 2 low first round picks for VC when the Nets still had their own and the Clippers was stupid, no matter what you're trying to argue. VC is an all-star vote getter, he deserves more than a LOWLY DENVER pick (i seriously don't think DENVER will suck this year), and a 16th overall Philli pick.

How was VC a distraction when he was on the injury list?!?!?!?!?

Are you saying when VC left, the team is just as good, your logical reasoning for trading "the top all-star vote getter"? You know, he sells jerseys for us and tickets for us; so what if he's a distraction? If we're going to play the same damn way, why not keep him until we get a far better deal. So you mean Alston wasn't a distraction last year? You mean Rose doesn't distract? You think VC is the ONLY point of the problem? Give me a break. That's really lame.....

How can you make assumptions like NO ONE is going to trade expiring for Rose when San Antonio can dump Malik Rose and his ugly contract to the Knicks? There are teams that will always take ugly contracts, it's supply and demand. Also, you can't spend money on players that won't sign on your crappy team (A la Atlanta Hawks - A la soon to be the Toronto Raptors) Tell me about that Malik trade will you? Oh man, NO ONE in the NBA. Yeah right. I can't stand it. Babcock must be paying you to write crap. At least pay someone that doesn't make assumptions like these ones.

[Hulkster]

Last place as this team is destined for failure. Very much like the Blue Jays the team will have to over pay in order for players to come here.

[gillianchung]

I guess what some people don't see is that there is now a foundation set for the rebuilding of the Raptors

you have a young nucleus of players in Bosh, CV3, Graham, Calderon, Ukic, Hoffa, Sow.

you have tons of cap space being freed up next year and the year after, then you can go after big ticket items.

could you have said that last year?.. nope.

could we trade Rose?.. maybe.. but i'd rather let his contract expire so that we don't take a chance on getting a bad contract back

The year we're going to have true cap space is 2007 for Bosh. Hoffa is not that young anymore, he was a senior.

You haven't addressed the issues I put out, and instead you keep saying there's cap space and young nucleus, like all Babcock supporters keep on saying. Atlanta Hawks has the same thing, they got a ton of cap space too. Anyone want to sign for them? I wouldn't if I had a choice. I'm not going to cheer for decisions made by the GM that's totally outrageous. He thinks this is his high school team. Have you met Babcock in the season ticket meets this year?

He told us he took his high school basketball team he coached, dumped all his best players that were doing badly in academics, got a 0-30 something record that year. He was like a Coach Carter. The next year they got to around .500..and the next they got to the playoffs..making sure everyone was a hard worker.

Well, that's high school. This is the NBA. It's about money. It's not as simple as bringing in quality guys like Alonzo Mourning or Aaron Williams. We're also fans too, we don't like to see our all-star go for beans.

And yes, young nucleus does not equal success. Again, you're trying to say the Clippers or Hawks are anything special to talk about. They're not. But we're transforming into those bottom-dweller teams. Hope you're proud of it.

[gillianchung]

Last place as this team is destined for failure. Very much like the Blue Jays the team will have to over pay in order for players to come here.

With Babcock as GM, they'd have to give agents way more than market value to sign a player. He signs someone long term in Alston then trades him away showing how loyal and committed Babcock is to signing players in Toronto.

Babcock lovers will just say, Alston was a distraction, blah blah this, look, Babcock signed him 6 years. Babcock made a mistake. and Babcock has made many mistakes.

[mallik]

I compare it cause it was a LAME trade that Babcock made. He was better not to have made it. And with the season we have, you really thought we were BETTER off?

And what, just let him sit there on the bench with a towel over his head?

Trying to get 2 low first round picks for VC when the Nets still had their own and the Clippers was stupid, no matter what you're trying to argue. VC is an all-star vote getter, he deserves more than a LOWLY DENVER pick (i seriously don't think DENVER will suck this year), and a 16th overall Philli pick.

Why stop there? Why didn't Babcock go for 15 1st rounders for the next 12 years? So you're saying an extra first rounder would have made the difference for you between the trade being a disaster and amazing?

How was VC a distraction when he was on the injury list?!?!?!?!?

He can still be a distraction when he is sitting on the bench, not showing any interest in how the team does.

Are you saying when VC left, the team is just as good, your logical reasoning for trading "the top all-star vote getter"? You know, he sells jerseys for us and tickets for us; so what if he's a distraction? If we're going to play the same damn way, why not keep him until we get a far better deal. So you mean Alston wasn't a distraction last year? You mean Rose doesn't distract? You think VC is the ONLY point of the problem? Give me a break. That's really lame.....

Check out the Raps' record after Carter was gone. They were just as good, or better, with Bosh and Rose stepping it up after Carter left. Who cares if he sells jerseys or is the top all-star vote getter. That just means he is/was popular with the fans. That doesn't win you basketball games. He was top vote getter for the 03 all star game without barely having played any games, and he got pressured to give up his spot to Jordan.

How long did you want to keep Carter for when he wasn't showing any signs of getting better or caring about getting better. Yes Rose and Alston have been distractions. Alston was traded, and Rose would likely be traded if not for his contract.

How can you make assumptions like NO ONE is going to trade expiring for Rose when San Antonio can dump Malik Rose and his ugly contract to the Knicks? There are teams that will always take ugly contracts, it's supply and demand. Also, you can't spend money on players that won't sign on your crappy team (A la Atlanta Hawks - A la soon to be the Toronto Raptors) Tell me about that Malik trade will you? Oh man, NO ONE in the NBA. Yeah right. I can't stand it. Babcock must be paying you to write crap. At least pay someone that doesn't make assumptions like these ones.

You're comparing Malik Rose's 5-6 million contract to Jalen Rose's 14-15 million contract. It's apples and oranges. The only team that I can think of that would take him is the Knicks, and it remains to be seen if they do. You keep mentioning the Hawks as a team with cap space but unable to attract players. That's because they were a hopeless team with no promise. Now they have a solid core, and didn't they just happen to attract Joe Johnson?

[Hanniganite]

This is last year all over again...

On the topic of the Vince trade: Who here is an NBA GM, raise your hand...or has access to their offices....anyone? How do you know the Raptors could've gotten a better deal? Did one of the GMs tell you?

OK, let's say getting Graham, a 1st rounder this year, the Williamses and Mourning was crap right? If VC was really worth so much and so coveted, why didn't some other team offer the same crap NJ did, plus a 2nd rounder? The fact is, Vince's value wasn't that high and it wasn't getting any better. Him sitting around and pouting wasn't going to help the team and he wasn't even being selfish to make himself look good (i.e. jacking up shots to pad stats). NJ in a way took a risk because they didn't know which VC they were getting. Do I think we got equal value for Vince? No...but I sure as hell don't know if there were any better offers on the table and neither does anyone here.

[radeonboy]

All hail gillianchung, this dude is hardcore.

gillianchung, you should be the Raps GM.

[rdtx2002]

I compare it cause it was a LAME trade that Babcock made. He was better not to have made it. And with the season we have, you really thought we were BETTER off?

overall we are a better off team.. because now we have players that WANT to be here.. not whining babies that complaing about his mom losing a parking spot and other distractions.

Trying to get 2 low first round picks for VC when the Nets still had their own and the Clippers was stupid, no matter what you're trying to argue. VC is an all-star vote getter, he deserves more than a LOWLY DENVER pick (i seriously don't think DENVER will suck this year), and a 16th overall Philli pick.

you weren't getting any better offer for a guy that is coming off the IR. averaging 10ppg less than the year before, jacking up shots and not even trying to go inside, and demand trades? 2 first rounders and some scrubs is pretty good.

How was VC a distraction when he was on the injury list?!?!?!?!?

when you are on the IR.. you are still obligated to at least show some team spirit when the team is playing.

Are you saying when VC left, the team is just as good, your logical reasoning for trading "the top all-star vote getter"? You know, he sells jerseys for us and tickets for us; so what if he's a distraction? If we're going to play the same damn way, why not keep him until we get a far better deal. So you mean Alston wasn't a distraction last year? You mean Rose doesn't distract? You think VC is the ONLY point of the problem? Give me a break. That's really lame.....

we were a better 'overall' team.. Chris Bosh stepped it up big him and almost averaged 20/10 number until the end of the season.

Keep him until we get a far better deal?.. man.. are you stupid?.. he trade value just continues to drop and drop.. and if his heart is not with the team.. how in god's green earth would the trade value rise?.. you are just assuming things like Carter would have averaged 20+ if he was not traded.. that is plain baloney.

Alston was a distraction and that is why Mike James is here and NOT Rafer.

Rose is Rose.. to me.. he 'can' be a distraction.. but this guy BRINGS IT on the court.. his on court performance outweighs his offcourt antics at times.

I never said VC was the problem.. you are ASSUMING that I'm saying that.. and that is very lame. but you can't argue that VC was part of the problem.

How can you make assumptions like NO ONE is going to trade expiring for Rose when San Antonio can dump Malik Rose and his ugly contract to the Knicks? There are teams that will always take ugly contracts, it's supply and demand. Also, you can't spend money on players that won't sign on your crappy team (A la Atlanta Hawks - A la soon to be the Toronto Raptors) Tell me about that Malik trade will you? Oh man, NO ONE in the NBA. Yeah right. I can't stand it. Babcock must be paying you to write crap. At least pay someone that doesn't make assumptions like these ones.

Malik Rose - 6 million or so contract
vs.
Jalen Rose - 15 million

that answer your question smart guy? Malik Rose's contract is still tradable because of the salary numbers. unlike Jalen Rose... the only way you can trade JAlen Rose is to get back stupid contracts like Malik Rose... now.. would you like to do that.. or just wait out the 2 years?.. i'd wait out the 2 years

Babcock paying me to write crap? whatever man.. you are the one posting crap all the time with no substance. you bring up stupid comparison like Malik Rose vs. Jalen Rose.

I don't mind being the Atlanta Hawks right now.. with a nucleus of Marvin Williams, Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Josh Childress, Salim Stoudamire....

[rdtx2002]

All hail gillianchung, this dude is hardcore.

gillianchung, you should be the Raps GM.

gillianchung can only be a NBA Live GM..

[thelefteyeguy]

i predict 8 wins.

[numb555]

I won't watch any Raptors game until Babcock is out!

Haffa, and VC for Zo is the best moves ever by a GM... LOL

I think there's a conspiracy, Babcock is making the Raptors suck so bad that in a couple of years we are moving to Las Vegas!

[rdtx2002]

I won't watch any Raptors game until Babcock is out!

Haffa, and VC for Zo is the best moves ever by a GM... LOL

I think there's a conspiracy, Babcock is making the Raptors suck so bad that in a couple of years we are moving to Las Vegas!

VC for Zo.. whatever man.. get your head out of the rock.. it was more than VC for Zo.

...... some fans in Toronto.... are just............ [censored]

[numb555]

VC for Zo.. whatever man.. get your head out of the rock.. it was more than VC for Zo.


Yes, Keep on telling yourself that ... Are you like related to Babcock? That would explain a lot.

Just tell us what serviceable player we got for a guy who was one of the best(if not the best) player in the East in the second half of the season. And don't get me started on Haffa, or the rediculous signing of Rafer.

[rdtx2002]

Yes, Keep on telling yourself that ... Are you like related to Babcock? That would explain a lot.

Just tell us what serviceable player we got for a guy who was one of the best(if not the best) player in the East in the second half of the season. And don't get me started on Haffa, or the rediculous signing of Rafer.

related to Babcock?.. man.. you people are really sad to resort to comments like this.. are you not capable of arguing without resorting to the 'relatives of Babock?'.. you are sad man. I guess that makes you related to gilliamchung ;)

so smart guy.. you tell me what you could have gotten for VC when he was demand trades, playing like a wuss and not driving to the hole.. and riding the IR? 2 draft picks, 2 scrubs, and Zo was the best deal on the table, bar none. So if Joey Graham becomes a very good NBA player... wouldn't your argument go down the drain? ;)

there was no secret VC would probably return to his old self in NJ.. but that has more to do with Jason Kidd and the system they play

the signing of Rafer was ridiculous.. but guess what.. HE IS GONE... so.. stop living in the past.. we got a similar-type PG with his head on straight in Mike James for Rafer. that trade was a wash

[mallik]

Yes, Keep on telling yourself that ... Are you like related to Babcock? That would explain a lot.

Just tell us what serviceable player we got for a guy who was one of the best(if not the best) player in the East in the second half of the season. And don't get me started on Haffa, or the rediculous signing of Rafer.

The point is, it wasn't VC for Zo. They got draft picks and Eric Williams, and Aaron Williams, who are both serviceable players. LeBron James and Paul Pierce talked highly of the impact Eric Williams has had on their careers, and they both said he is one of the most influential people they have met or played with. He's kind of like Oakley, and he can still play.

VC may have been one of the best the second half, but how was he in the first half? You can't sell him on potential. He's not a rookie coming out of the draft. The only reason people are getting upset is because of how he played in NJ. How would you feel about the trade if he was playing the same as he was in Toronto, or if he was constantly injured?

As for Hoffa, I guess you're right. A player's rookie year is always their make or break year. All players should just be cut loose if they don't do anything in their first year. Hoffa was probably the highest rated center in the draft. He may not have scored like Shaq, but did create alot of room out there. Without him, Bosh would've gotten abused like crazy. I seem to recall Babcock picking up Pape Sow in the draft too, but of course nobody mentions that; everything has to do with Hoffa. Even if Hoffa does turn out to be a bust, it's not like Babcock is the only GM in history to draft a bad player. Grunwald had some terrible drafts.

[rdtx2002]

Even if he does turn out to be a bust, it's not like Babcock is the only GM in history to draft a bad player. Grunwald had some terrible drafts.

Aleksander Radojevic
Michael Bradley
Remon Van de Hare
Kareen Rush
Jonathon Bender..

all GG picks.. can you say horrible :lol:

[Yaowsers]

VC may have been one of the best the second half, but how was he in the first half?
How often was he playing in the first half?

[mallik]

How often was he playing in the first half?

And who's fault was that?

[rdtx2002]

How often was he playing in the first half?

doesn't matter.. his heart wasn't with the team anymore.. didn't matter how many games he played in the first half.. he just plain dogged the 1st half of the season to force the trade

[Hanniganite]

How often was he playing in the first half?

Started 20/20 games, playing 30 min a game (8/g less than when he went to NJ). When you shoot .411 (worst of his career), .322 3p% (2nd worst, behind rookie year) and .694 at the free throw line (next worst of his career was .761), you're asking for time on the bench.

In response to numb555's comment on VC being arguably the best Eastern Conf player in the 2nd half...too bad he had obviously given up on the Raptors by the time of his trade. Had they played hardball with him and just kept him on the team, there's no way in hell he puts up the numbers he did in NJ but would continue to give the team mediocrity if not worse.

All this ragging on what we got back...Zo was a waste yeah, but it clears up a bit of cap room. Joey Graham: how can you say anything bad about him before he's even played a pre-season game? If all he ends up doing is using his athleticism to play good defense, that's pretty damn good in my mind. There's one more pick coming up, and even though it won't be a lottery pick, a 1st rounder can still help (and I don't want to hear that garbage about "Babcock drafts poop, wah wah wah"). The Williamses got traded when they didn't want to (unlike Vince) and especially Eric's circumstances. You add that to the fact that last year's Raptors team was "new" and full of distractions/problems and that'll wear down even the most "professional" of athletes. Wait until you see what he does this year before complaining.

Some 'fans' are so fixated on hating...Complaining that Rafer was signed to a ridiculous contract (and yeah, it was) and he was a headcase, blah blah blah. Babcock trades him away for a short contract while not really losing much in terms of the player received but all people want to talk about is "Babcock signed Rafer to a bad contract, blah blah blah". Had Babcock managed to get Lebron James back for Rafer we'd probably still hear whining about Rafer's bad contract :rolleyes: