Weight Training Question

[trinh]

What is the best way to burn the extra fat and get lean and muscular?

Should I do aerobic first (20-30min) and then weight training or the other way around?
Thanks

[poedua]

If its for simply building muscle and nothing else then do cardio before. This gets the blood pumping and therefore needed oxygen to your muscles when you pump. If its for getting lean, do your cardio after your weight workout. The reason for this is that all your energy will be used to do your weight training, therefore when you are doing cardio after, your body has nothing left to burn so it dips into your fat reserves.

By energy I mean glycogen stores - stores of energy that your body uses during weight training and cardio. During weight training, glycogen stores are the only energy source used. Doing your high intensity cardio routine before weight training will deplete your energy (glycogen) stores needed to complete your weight training. Also, completing your weight training before your cardio significantly decreases you glycogen stores. The best situation would be to reach your optimal fat burning stages and to have the proper energy to utilize an exercise program - to do that, complete your weight training before you cardio.

The best way to get lean is to simply lose weight. It's a function of the amount of energy (calories) taken in versus the amount of energy expended burned. Excess calories in the body are simply stored as fat - regardless of the source (carbohydrate, fat or protein).

I'm guessing, most guys your would need about 3,200 to 3,500 calories a day just to maintain your current weight. A pound of fat is equal to 3,500 calories. In order for you to gain or lose a pound, either you increase or decrease your intake by this amount - so to get lean, eat fewer calories, burn off more calories with cardio or do both.

[mcewen]

Wow... that is really good to know! I just started a few months ago going to the gym. I am not trying to bulk up, but have been doing cardio for 45 mins and then hitting the weight machines for 15 mins to do some upper body strengthening/toning.

I guess I should reverse the order of that then! Thanks for that!

Bear-gut begone!!! hahaha.

[trinh]

One concern,

If the fat is still there, how can we build muscle ? Is it better to get rid of the fat and then build up lean muscle?

[a1tenshi]

with fat still there u're better able to build bigger muscles if u push urself harder. people who can't seem to gain weight (or fat) can't gain a bigger muscle mass just more lean muscle. also, with fat still there u're still able to get lean muscle its just that fat would be attached but eventually if u do ur routine long enough fat will disappear, slowly...

[nfnx]

If its for simply building muscle and nothing else then do cardio before. This gets the blood pumping and therefore needed oxygen to your muscles when you pump. If its for getting lean, do your cardio after your weight workout. The reason for this is that all your energy will be used to do your weight training, therefore when you are doing cardio after, your body has nothing left to burn so it dips into your fat reserves.

By energy I mean glycogen stores - stores of energy that your body uses during weight training and cardio. During weight training, glycogen stores are the only energy source used. Doing your high intensity cardio routine before weight training will deplete your energy (glycogen) stores needed to complete your weight training. Also, completing your weight training before your cardio significantly decreases you glycogen stores. The best situation would be to reach your optimal fat burning stages and to have the proper energy to utilize an exercise program - to do that, complete your weight training before you cardio.

The best way to get lean is to simply lose weight. It's a function of the amount of energy (calories) taken in versus the amount of energy expended burned. Excess calories in the body are simply stored as fat - regardless of the source (carbohydrate, fat or protein).

I'm guessing, most guys your would need about 3,200 to 3,500 calories a day just to maintain your current weight. A pound of fat is equal to 3,500 calories. In order for you to gain or lose a pound, either you increase or decrease your intake by this amount - so to get lean, eat fewer calories, burn off more calories with cardio or do both.



thats a fabulous explanation.

for you trinh, i would say do the cardio first.... what i typically do is 20 minutes of cardio first, followed by an hour or 2 of weight training (a topic on its own) and then about 20 - 30 minutes of aerobics (like work on handstands, balance, launch, speed, and jumping). it takes hard work, but its quite simple once you get into your program.

as poedua said, the easiest way to get lean is to lose some weight as ur consistently stronging. its best to consume 500 calories a day less than what you typically consume. depending on whether yuor active or not, you naturally burn around 2000 - 2500 calories a day from walking and such. if you have sex, thats another 300 or so =)...

i am on opposite ends as you, i need to bulk up a bit... not many guys try to lose weight =)
anyways, remember when ur lifting weights, its teh quality of the exercise and not how heavy you can lift... make sure your breathing properly as well... its oh so important

goooodluck!

[poedua]

One concern,

If the fat is still there, how can we build muscle ? Is it better to get rid of the fat and then build up lean muscle?

Building muscle and losing fat aren't mutually exclusive activities - bodybuilders are good examples.

They build muscle mass with hard core workouts, but they don't look lean or " cut' until they drop their body fat to 3% - 5% before they compete - before that they may see huge in mass but not ' cut '. You can have huge muscle mass and still have 20-25% body fat and look ' soft' or ' puffy '

Remember fat is not only just under you're skin but ( if you have a lot it ) it's riddled throughout out you're muscles like the ' marbling ' or fat you see in a steak. if you want your muscles to to ' taut' and ' toned ' you want nothing but muscle - get rid of the ' marbling ' by burning the fat via cardio.

Lean muscle - lean cut of meat - same principle - virtually no fat found in either.

[B40]

What about cardio before and after your workout?

[poedua]

What about cardio before and after your workout?

- 5 - 8 min cardio before you weight train ( to get blood flow - oxygen - to muscles )

- Weight train

- afterwards, do cardio for 30 min ( if possible ) at 65-80 % of maximum ( 220 minus your age = maximum training heart rate ) Remember, you should be breathing deeply during cardio - not gasping - you should be able to ' talk briefly ' while doing cardio without huffing, puffing and groaning. if you are huffing, puffing and groaning it means you're not getting an aerobic workout - you're likely above 80% maximum- you're not getting enough oxygen.

Aerobic means ' oxygen' . All the enzymes in your body that are needed to burn fat need oxygen. If you're out of breath and gasping, you're out of oxygen, so you're body will SHUT OFF all fat burning and force your muscles to use glucose. Since the goal is burn fat - be sure you can do the ' talk test' while doing cardio - if not, you're not burning fat.

[trinh]

Building muscle and losing fat aren't mutually exclusive activities - bodybuilders are good examples.

They build muscle mass with hard core workouts, but they don't look lean or " cut' until they drop their body fat to 3% - 5% before they compete - before that they may see huge in mass but not ' cut '. You can have huge muscle mass and still have 20-25% body fat and look ' soft' or ' puffy '

Remember fat is not only just under you're skin but ( if you have a lot it ) it's riddled throughout out you're muscles like the ' marbling ' or fat you see in a steak. if you want your muscles to to ' taut' and ' toned ' you want nothing but muscle - get rid of the ' marbling ' by burning the fat via cardio.

Lean muscle - lean cut of meat - same principle - virtually no fat found in either.

Wow. Thanks for all your post. This is what I want /mean. I want muscles with minimum of fat. Which programs/procedure should I do in order to complete this goal? And you know how long apprx will it going to take in order to see real image improvement?
Thanks once again Poedua

[B40]

- 5 - 8 min cardio before you weight train ( to get blood flow - oxygen - to muscles )

- Weight train

- afterwards, do cardio for 30 min ( if possible ) at 65-80 % of maximum ( 220 minus your age = maximum training heart rate ) Remember, you should be breathing deeply during cardio - not gasping - you should be able to ' talk briefly ' while doing cardio without huffing, puffing and groaning. if you are huffing, puffing and groaning it means you're not getting an aerobic workout - you're likely above 80% maximum- you're not getting enough oxygen.

Aerobic means ' oxygen' . All the enzymes in your body that are needed to burn fat need oxygen. If you're out of breath and gasping, you're out of oxygen, so you're body will SHUT OFF all fat burning and force your muscles to use glucose. Since the goal is burn fat - be sure you can do the ' talk test' while doing cardio - if not, you're not burning fat.

Thanks...I usually did 10 mins as warm up, and nothing after. I will try doing some after cardio to lose some fat.

[ukhan]

I tend to disagree with some of the information explained here. Training with cardio first, then an hour or 2 or weight train and then more cardio is just going to kill you. Your glycogen stores will be so depleted that you end up creating cortisol which would cause you to lose muscle mass and a bunch of other problems.

My advice:

Focus on one thing. If you want to build mass, only do a heavy workout 3 times a week for a max of 60-75 min each time. Do not do any sort of cardio, except maybe a 5 min warm up to increase the oxygen to the muscles.

If you want to lose fat (the keyword being fat and not weight), then you want to do one day cardio for 30-45 min, and then the next day for weights (you want to workout in a fat loss phase so that your muscles help to burn fat). I usually do a fat loss cycle, in which I have a high rep 3 times a week workout, plus 3-4 times a week cardio, but never in the same day....


Keep in mind that people with a low percent body fat tend to gain more lean mass, whereas people with high body fat tend to gain more fat. The best thing to do is to get down to at least 10-12% body fat if you want to focus on adding mass. Or else if you are at a high bf% and try so hard to gain mass, it will result in more fat being stored.

Also remember whenever you add mass, fat comes along with it. If you are at least 10-12% and add mass (After a mass cycle) you are bound to have increased your bf%. After that you can cut down and you should be able to see the definition.



Also, another thing people dont realize that your body is 80% your diet and 20% exercise. Make sure your diet is in check depending on your goals (fat loss or mass gain) as you will see a big difference if this is your main priority. People can train for years and years without worrying about their diet, but still not get the same results as someone who diets correctly and adds proper training to supplement it.

[poedua]

Thanks...I usually did 10 mins as warm up, and nothing after. I will try doing some after cardio to lose some fat.

Something to consider...if at all possible, I'd try and do cardio on days i don't do weights...i.e 3 or 4 days cardio, the other 3 days weights. A good weight session ( with warmup ) is at least 50 minutes and a good cardio session ( with 5 min warm up and a 5 min cool down ) is another 40 minutes - you're at 1 1/2 hours minimum for one session.

Or, you may want to do cardio in the a.m or p.m and weights in the other part of the day. Depends on what your priority is - fat or muscle in the short term

If burning fat is the key and you want to looked ' ripped ', then opting for a good steady 60 minute of cardio at 60-80 % ( i.e talk test ) of your max heart rate will really melt the fat off, specially if you can do it 4 days a week.
As I've said before , if you do 1 body part of muscle work per week - i.e do legs, chest, arms, back once a week, you'll be blasting those muscles as hard as you can - blasting those mucles as hard as you can might make a follow-up 20/30 cardio too exhausting for one session.

[ukhan]

Something to consider...if at all possible, I'd try and do cardio on days i don't do weights...i.e 3 or 4 days cardio, the other 3 days weights. A good weight session ( with warmup ) is at least 50 minutes and a good cardio session ( with 5 min warm up and a 5 min cool down ) is another 40 minutes - you're at 1 1/2 hours minimum for one session.

Or, you may want to do cardio in the a.m or p.m and weights in the other part of the day. Depends on what your priority is - fat or muscle in the short term

If burning fat is the key and you want to looked ' ripped ', then opting for a good steady 60 minute of cardio at 60-80 % ( i.e talk test ) of your max heart rate will really melt the fat off, specially if you can do it 4 days a week.
As I've said before , if you do 1 body part of muscle work per week - i.e do legs, chest, arms, back once a week, you'll be blasting those muscles as hard as you can - blasting those mucles as hard as you can might make a follow-up 20/30 cardio too exhausting for one session.


Wow did we both just post about this idea at exactly the same time? Wow. LOL

[dgmorr]

If its for simply building muscle and nothing else then do cardio before. This gets the blood pumping and therefore needed oxygen to your muscles when you pump. If its for getting lean, do your cardio after your weight workout. The reason for this is that all your energy will be used to do your weight training, therefore when you are doing cardio after, your body has nothing left to burn so it dips into your fat reserves.


Why does that sound like the most logical piece of excercise advice I have EVAR heard, but have never read it anywhere before? I'm going to experiment with this.

[ctam]

I don't want to sound like a stick in the mud. But some of the post made is not accurate. As the following:



The best way to get lean is to simply lose weight. It's a function of the amount of energy (calories) taken in versus the amount of energy expended burned. Excess calories in the body are simply stored as fat - regardless of the source (carbohydrate, fat or protein).



There is a strong difference between taking calories from different sources. Taking calories from fat is DIFFERENT than taking it from protien or carb. This is the same analogy as a car that take diesel and you pump in propane. Both is a source of energy but it reacts differently.

I am at work right now and will post more about this when I get home.

In regards of taking in less calories than you burn. Where do you get the number of 3000-3500 calories? There is a lot of variable. Height, age, fitness level.

I am training for marathon and will be training for Ironman. Diet and nutrition is especially importance. My best bet about diet is either equip yourself with the right knowledge (either talk to an expert [dietician] or read a book written by one).

[ukhan]

Why does that sound like the most logical piece of excercise advice I have EVAR heard, but have never read it anywhere before? I'm going to experiment with this.

Before you go off experimenting listen to this. In theory this does work. When glycogen levels are low, your body will dip into your fat stores for energy during cardio, however, remember by doing such a long workout (weights + cardio) in one session, you will create cortisol because of all the stress you are going through. Going through such a rought workout in one session will make you exhausted. Cortisol inhibits growth and excess cortisol can cause musle loss. So thats why you see a ton of people doing so much in one session at the gym, but dont get that much results. YOU DO NOT WANT TO OVERTRAIN!!

A better idea is to do cardio in the morning before eating because your glycogen stores are depleted in the morning as well (because all of the energy from the day before is finished off during sleep, and also since you haven't eaten for a while (usually 8 hours)). So you should try doing cardio in the mornings separate from weight training.

[poedua]

I tend to disagree with some of the information explained here. Training with cardio first, then an hour or 2 or weight train and then more cardio is just going to kill you. Your glycogen stores will be so depleted that you end up creating cortisol which would cause you to lose muscle mass and a bunch of other problems.

My advice:

Focus on one thing. If you want to build mass, only do a heavy workout 3 times a week for a max of 60-75 min each time. Do not do any sort of cardio, except maybe a 5 min warm up to increase the oxygen to the muscles.

If you want to lose fat (the keyword being fat and not weight), then you want to do one day cardio for 30-45 min, and then the next day for weights (you want to workout in a fat loss phase so that your muscles help to burn fat). I usually do a fat loss cycle, in which I have a high rep 3 times a week workout, plus 3-4 times a week cardio, but never in the same day....


Keep in mind that people with a low percent body fat tend to gain more lean mass, whereas people with high body fat tend to gain more fat. The best thing to do is to get down to at least 10-12% body fat if you want to focus on adding mass. Or else if you are at a high bf% and try so hard to gain mass, it will result in more fat being stored.

Also remember whenever you add mass, fat comes along with it. If you are at least 10-12% and add mass (After a mass cycle) you are bound to have increased your bf%. After that you can cut down and you should be able to see the definition.



Also, another thing people dont realize that your body is 80% your diet and 20% exercise. Make sure your diet is in check depending on your goals (fat loss or mass gain) as you will see a big difference if this is your main priority. People can train for years and years without worrying about their diet, but still not get the same results as someone who diets correctly and adds proper training to supplement it.

Good points. You're exactly right.

I think the diet aspects of losing fat in worthy of a thread on it's own. And you're right, fat is the key here , not weight. In a nutshell, a 15 pound weight gain due 100% to more muscle is generally good, whereas a 15 pound weight gain due 100% to more fat is ALWAYS bad !

However, diet may not be exactly 80%, perhaps less so . The key benefit to sustained and increased exersize is the fact that , unlike dieting alone, exersize triggers DNA to make more and more of those enzymes that are used especially for breaking down fat. The more of those enzymes you have, the more fat you can use at higher and higher intensity cardio workouts, which in turn creates even more enzymes which burn more fat and so it goes on, better and better, the more cardio you do. After a while, you're running faster and faster ( without gasping ) and when you're doing that you're burning fat like there's no tomorrow.

But, again, you're right, this cardio is a total waste of time if you're eating a junk food diet high in fat and calories. Again, to lose a pound of FAT, you have to either burn or reduce your calorie intake by 3,500 calories - to lose 1 pound of fat you need to lose 3,500 calories

[poedua]

Before you go off experimenting listen to this. In theory this does work. When glycogen levels are low, your body will dip into your fat stores for energy during cardio, however, remember by doing such a long workout (weights + cardio) in one session, you will create cortisol because of all the stress you are going through. Going through such a rought workout in one session will make you exhausted. Cortisol inhibits growth and excess cortisol can cause musle loss. So thats why you see a ton of people doing so much in one session at the gym, but dont get that much results. YOU DO NOT WANT TO OVERTRAIN!!

A better idea is to do cardio in the morning before eating because your glycogen stores are depleted in the morning as well (because all of the energy from the day before is finished off during sleep, and also since you haven't eaten for a while (usually 8 hours)). So you should try doing cardio in the mornings separate from weight training.

Good advice - if possible, I'd have him do 2 workouts ( a.m / p.m ) a day of say 45 - 50 min each - one cardio ,one weights.

[B40]

Something to consider...if at all possible, I'd try and do cardio on days i don't do weights...i.e 3 or 4 days cardio, the other 3 days weights. A good weight session ( with warmup ) is at least 50 minutes and a good cardio session ( with 5 min warm up and a 5 min cool down ) is another 40 minutes - you're at 1 1/2 hours minimum for one session.

Or, you may want to do cardio in the a.m or p.m and weights in the other part of the day. Depends on what your priority is - fat or muscle in the short term

If burning fat is the key and you want to looked ' ripped ', then opting for a good steady 60 minute of cardio at 60-80 % ( i.e talk test ) of your max heart rate will really melt the fat off, specially if you can do it 4 days a week.
As I've said before , if you do 1 body part of muscle work per week - i.e do legs, chest, arms, back once a week, you'll be blasting those muscles as hard as you can - blasting those mucles as hard as you can might make a follow-up 20/30 cardio too exhausting for one session.

Good call, I generally work out 1.5 hours anyways, so adding an extra 30 mins is no biggie. Sometimes I do 15 mins of abs after, so I can skip that and do cardio which will have a bigger impact.

I'm not a big fan of going twice in a day...I don't want to seem like a gym nut :lol:

[ukhan]

I don't want to sound like a stick in the mud. But some of the post made is not accurate. As the following:



There is a strong difference between taking calories from different sources. Taking calories from fat is DIFFERENT than taking it from protien or carb. This is the same analogy as a car that take diesel and you pump in propane. Both is a source of energy but it reacts differently.

I am at work right now and will post more about this when I get home.

In regards of taking in less calories than you burn. Where do you get the number of 3000-3500 calories? There is a lot of variable. Height, age, fitness level.

I am training for marathon and will be training for Ironman. Diet and nutrition is especially importance. My best bet about diet is either equip yourself with the right knowledge (either talk to an expert [dietician] or read a book written by one).


I agree totally with this. You have to proportion your diet accordingly.
You cant expect to eat anything you want (keeping the calories the same) and expect results. Your body needs a balance.

Also, you have to understand that there are different qualities of foods you eat. For example fructose is a low GI carb that does not get used by your body right away, but dextrose or maltodextrin is a high GI carb that gets broken down and used right away. When you have a low GI carb sitting around in your body and not getting used, it will turn into fat, whereas a high GI carb is usually used right away.

This is one of the reasons why people use a post workout shake of dextrose/maltodextrin to give an insulin boost right after a workout. The post workout drink quickly gets broken down and used to create glycogen to replenish glycogen energy stores which were depleted during the workout. If you took another carb like an apple, it wouldn't be used right away.

Another reason people take the post workout shake is to battle cortisol by replenishing glycogen right away.


Also, I also do not know where you are getting 3000-3500 cal/day. That number depends on various factors as ctam said.

And as ctam said, the best bet is to read and learn about the topic of bodybuilding before you go experimenting. If you go out and do something by what you hear without evidence or advice from a person knowledgeable in the topic, you wont get what you want all the time, and can cause a bunch of other problems.

Edit: Sorry I wrote GH instead of GI

[ukhan]

Good call, I generally work out 1.5 hours anyways, so adding an extra 30 mins is no biggie. Sometimes I do 15 mins of abs after, so I can skip that and do cardio which will have a bigger impact.

I'm not a big fan of going twice in a day...I don't want to seem like a gym nut :lol:

30 min extra IS a biggie. You will end up doing 2 hours of constant exercise. Thats a lot of training man. You will end up so tired and with so much excess cortisol that you will be losing muscle. DO NOT OVERTRAIN! Keep it in moderation. If you are exhausted during the workout, that means that it's time for you to stop or else you will create cortisol.

The best idea is to spread everything out over the week and have small exercise sessions...

[ukhan]

Good advice - if possible, I'd have him do 2 workouts ( a.m / p.m ) a day of say 45 - 50 min each - one cardio ,one weights.

This is ok as long as you dont do it everyday. Maybe 3 times a week is ok, but remember you DO NOT WANT TO OVERTRAIN!!! ;) Try to keep workouts and cardio as far apart as possible during the day.

[mcewen]

Ok, now I am confused. At first it was cardio after weights, now it is cardio and weights in separate workouts.

I try to get to the gym 2-3 times a week for a 5:30am workout - 40 mins of cardio (20 bike, 20 elliptical - goal to increase to an hour total), then a little upper body machines, then about 15-20 mins of swimming (low intensity). Throughout the week I usually go 1-2 more times in the evening for a lighter workout, be it just swimming or just cardio/weights. I do lower body once every two weeks or so because I have bad knees and don’t want to re-injure them.

My goal isn’t to bodybuild, only to tone. I have a small gut I wouldn’t mind losing also, so I understand that increase muscle helps in getting rid of that too, but I reiterate - I am not looking to be the Hulk.

So which is it - weights then cardio, or separate the two altogether?

Thanks
M

[ukhan]

Ok, now I am confused. At first it was cardio after weights, now it is cardio and weights in separate workouts.

I try to get to the gym 2-3 times a week for a 5:30am workout - 40 mins of cardio (20 bike, 20 elliptical - goal to increase to an hour total), then a little upper body machines, then about 15-20 mins of swimming (low intensity). Throughout the week I usually go 1-2 more times in the evening for a lighter workout, be it just swimming or just cardio/weights. I do lower body once every two weeks or so because I have bad knees and don’t want to re-injure them.

My goal isn’t to bodybuild, only to tone. I have a small gut I wouldn’t mind losing also, so I understand that increase muscle helps in getting rid of that too, but I reiterate - I am not looking to be the Hulk.

So which is it - weights then cardio, or separate the two altogether?

Thanks
M


Regardless of if you want to bulk or not, you don't want to have such long sessions in the morning (especially since your glycogen is depleted in the morning). Doing so will increase cortisol which will cause you to lose muscle.

In my opinion, you should do cardio separate from weights regardless of if you want to body build or not. Try doing this: pick 3 or 4 days and do cardio in the morning before eating. Pick another 2-3 days (either 3 separate days in the morning or evening, or the same 3 days as cardio but only in the evening as you want to spread out cardio and weight training as much as possible. Also if you want to do weights in the morning, you should eat an hour before you exercise to replenish glycogen which will be burned off during weight training. ).

One also has to understand that these ideas are not specific to someone who wants to be the "Hulk", they are general exercise concepts that are applicable to everyone.

I think when you say "toning" you mean you want to look lean and healthy with smooth muscles. In order to do that you have to maintain muscle mass and decrease fat. Weight training helps alot in fat loss as it helps to burn fat since after your workout, when you are resting, your muscles burn calories just sitting there. But remember, if you work out for too long during one session or overtrain throughout the week, you end up creating excess cortisol which will inhibit growth, eat muscle which will cause you to see less results.

Also, an hour of constant cardio is a little too much as excess cardio will create cortisol. You want to try to keep it at 30-45 min at 75% max heart rate. Or you can do HIIT (short sprints of 1 min, then 2 min at 75%, repeated for a duration of 30 min max). Keep in mind that HIIT is very stressful on the body so if you do it for too long or too much, you will create cortisol because of the stress.

Always keep it in moderation as cortisol is your enemy.

LOL I sound like an advertising campaign against Cortisol. LOL

[siriuskao]

hi fitness gurus,

any books or website for more info?

thank you.

[ukhan]

Wow. Thanks for all your post. This is what I want /mean. I want muscles with minimum of fat. Which programs/procedure should I do in order to complete this goal? And you know how long apprx will it going to take in order to see real image improvement?
Thanks once again Poedua

A correctly executed fat loss phase will allow you to lose 1-2lbs of fat (depending on your current body fat %) every week. It usually about 1% drop every week (some people can lose it faster depending on weight, bf%, age, shape, and sex). Remember you want to lose fat, not weight (which includes muscle and fat).

You should buy a body fat caliper and take a reading of your body fat at specific points in your body. You can use a simple 9-site Parillo method to calculate your body fat % using a caliper. Believe me, get a better picture of your body fat percentage as people can look skinny but can still have a lot of body fat. You want to focus on lowering your body fat % to see a real image improvement. To find out about the 9-site Parillo equation, just do a Google search.

[ctam]

I do not know much about body building. I do know that if u do a lot of cardio, your body will be eating your muscles. This is why most body builder don't focus heavy on cardio.

By heavy on cardio I mean two hour or more aerobic exercise.

This is also true by the fact that if u look at any professional marathoners or endurance athletes, they are not bulky. First, they are more efficient are moving with less weight. S econd, their body burn so much energy that the body is digesting the muslces as well.

Note: This is also why for endurance athletes to do some muscle building as well.

As to why the body is digesting the muscles? I am not sure. My guess is that in the exercise, the body needs a lot of fuel (on my 3 hr run, I burn over 2000 calories base on my Heart Rate Monitor). Since msucle is a form of protien which can be use as energy (not the most efficient method), the body will try to absorb that. (just a guess..will find out whether is true or not)

[ukhan]

hi fitness gurus,

any books or website for more info?

thank you.

The one the I would recommend first is the book and program, "Gaining Mass" by Anthony Ellis. His website is http://www.fatlosstips.com/ and here: http://www.skinnyguy.net.

Although his website may look like its a scam and not really worth it, believe me, it's real. He explains alot of things in his book very well and guides you through his pre-made diets and progams, so that you have a full understanding. Ever since I started his program and read his book, I went from a 20% body fat percentage to 8% and then gained 25 lbs of lean mass.

His program is not only for skinny guys as his website name may suggest, but the concepts and programs can be used by anyone with any type of body with equal if not better results.

His book and program was worth the money IMHO since I had no one to help me along my journey.

Also, you get access to a private board, with a large user base of regular people who want to improve their body shape, who know the facts and help you with any questions or concerns. Many people who have done his program have gotten amazing results and there are alot of people doing his program.

Now, if you do not want to go this route, there is another book that I recommend:

Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle, By Tom Venuto (this guy can get his bf% down to 3.7%!!!)
http://www.burnthefat.com/?hop=moondial

This is also an excellent book.

But there are also many others out there...you just have to go out and find em... ;)

[ukhan]

As to why the body is digesting the muscles? I am not sure. My guess is that in the exercise, the body needs a lot of fuel (on my 3 hr run, I burn over 2000 calories base on my Heart Rate Monitor). Since msucle is a form of protien which can be use as energy (not the most efficient method), the body will try to absorb that. (just a guess..will find out whether is true or not)

It's the cortisol build up that causes the muscle protein to be used as energy. And as I said, cortisol is built up from alot of stress (such as a extremely long cardio session or a long marathon).

[poedua]

I do not know much about body building. I do know that if u do a lot of cardio, your body will be eating your muscles. This is why most body builder don't focus heavy on cardio.

By heavy on cardio I mean two hour or more aerobic exercise.

This is also true by the fact that if u look at any professional marathoners or endurance athletes, they are not bulky. First, they are more efficient are moving with less weight. S econd, their body burn so much energy that the body is digesting the muslces as well.

Note: This is also why for endurance athletes to do some muscle building as well.

As to why the body is digesting the muscles? I am not sure. My guess is that in the exercise, the body needs a lot of fuel (on my 3 hr run, I burn over 2000 calories base on my Heart Rate Monitor). Since msucle is a form of protien which can be use as energy (not the most efficient method), the body will try to absorb that. (just a guess..will find out whether is true or not)

It basically all starts with carbs. Once digested, carbs are absorbed into the bloodstream as glucose. Glucose that is not used immediately for energy is stored in muscles as glycogen, and - the bigger the glycogen stores in your muscles, the longer you'll be able to run.

I think runners can store about 2,000 calories worth of glycogen in their bodies, enough to fuel about 30 kilometres of running. After that, glycogen stores run dry, the body must burn fat for energy, fatigue sets in and your body shuts down ("hitting the wall") - the energy from fat cannot supply enough energy for the demand needed to continue running.

So, since you need energy from someplace, it comes from protein - as you noted. The protein energy supply comes from cannibalization of muscle tissue, i.e., muscle mass is lost to the body’s energy demand. In other words, as you also pointed out, the muscles are sort of ' eaten alive'. This is why marathon runners, like yourself, cannot keep muscle mass on their physique.
It's also why most marathoners neede to consume 30 to 60 grams of carbs per hour of running, using a combination of sports drinks, energy gels, energy bars, fruit or gummi bears ( used to pack these in my gym bag ) So, you're quite correct, you can burn lots of fat calories through long-distance running, but you also lose muscle mass.

But in the case of the OP, assuming he'll not run longer than 10K in an hour at 60-80% of max heart rate and that he has a normal diet ( has lots of carbs ) , he should be able to rip off the fat AND build mucle without too much trouble.

Also, he can take things up another notch ' fat burn wise ' by having a tough & intense weight workout. An hour of jogging at the average pace will burn about 400-450 calories depending on body size, etc. An intense weight workout for the same amount of time will burn about 700 calories - all things being equal. By just move quickly from one routine to another and allowing only 45-60 seconds between sets, he can easily maintain a heart rate or 60-80% of maximum - burning fat while he lifting.

[trinh]

A correctly executed fat loss phase will allow you to lose 1-2lbs of fat (depending on your current body fat %) every week. It usually about 1% drop every week (some people can lose it faster depending on weight, bf%, age, shape, and sex). Remember you want to lose fat, not weight (which includes muscle and fat).

You should buy a body fat caliper and take a reading of your body fat at specific points in your body. You can use a simple 9-site Parillo method to calculate your body fat % using a caliper. Believe me, get a better picture of your body fat percentage as people can look skinny but can still have a lot of body fat. You want to focus on lowering your body fat % to see a real image improvement. To find out about the 9-site Parillo equation, just do a Google search.

This is the KEY that I want to reach. LOOSE FAT and NOT WEIGHT.

[poedua]

This is the KEY that I want to reach. LOOSE FAT and NOT WEIGHT.



Ukhan is correct.

As I'd mentioned, all the cardio that was cited will burn a pound of fat if you burn 3,500 calories. But, on a volume basis, muscle tissue ( protein ) is much denser than fat and therefore is slightly heavier than fat - i.e a deck of card size amount of steak is heavier than the same volume size amount of butter is a good way to think about it.

That's why if you're doing cardio AND weights for awhile, the weight you see on your weigh scale at home may actually remain unchanged or actually go up after you start training. The scale doesn't not distinguish between the amount of fat and muscle that you have. As your weight and cardio training improves, you will lose fat BUTt start gaining muscle mass. As you gain muscle mass you look slimmer ( i.e slimmer waist size ) to everyone but can actually weigh more since muscle weighs more than fat.

[cell567]

I apologize for my ignorance and not reading the thread fully, but a question to either of you 2 gurus. If I want to build muscle mass and not lose wait as I am happy with my weight, what is recommended for the average teenage male. I am aiming to gain some muscle both in the abdonimal area and the some muscle in my arms themselves.I would much appreciate any advice. :)

[trinh]

I apologize for my ignorance and not reading the thread fully, but a question to either of you 2 gurus. If I want to build muscle mass and not lose wait as I am happy with my weight, what is recommended for the average teenage male. Same question goes but rather for the abdominal area. I would much appreciate any advice. :)

Same boat with cell here. I am happy with my weight but want to look more muscular without loosing nor gaining much weight ( like 1-5lbs gain is max ). Is this a good routine schedule?

Mon, Wed, Fri (20 min CV - 100 cal burned) + 1 hr weight after (Lat, Chest, triceps)
Tues, Thurs, Sat (20 min CV - 100 cal burned) + 1 hr weight after (Shoulder, Biceps)
Sunday OFF

[poedua]

I apologize for my ignorance and not reading the thread fully, but a question to either of you 2 gurus. If I want to build muscle mass and not lose wait as I am happy with my weight, what is recommended for the average teenage male. I am aiming to gain some muscle both in the abdonimal area and the some muscle in my arms themselves.I would much appreciate any advice. :)

An good overall workout is a full body workout 3 days a week. But, if you want to focus more attention on muscle groups, some sort of split workout would help.

One option is divide your workout into a 3-day program where you split upper body work into a push/pull strategy and work your lower body on a separate day. A 3 day might like Day 1: Chest-Triceps, Day 2: Back-Biceps, Day 3: Legs-Shoulders.

Another option is to go 5 days a week- one muscle group per day. In this type of workout, your week might be Chest, Back, Shoulders, Arms and Legs.

The number of exercises you're doing should fit the time available (pick about 3 exercises per muscle group & 8 reps ) and the number of sets you're doing (around 3-4 sets) for a 3 day - maybe 4 exercises and 4 sets ( 8 reps ) per muscle for the 5 day. How much weight ? For 8 reps , you should be approaching failure or really struggling by the 7th or 8th rep - if you can 8 reps without too much trouble - add weight. Also, try and limit your break betweeen sets to 60 - 90 seconds- no more.

Abs. Exercise the lower abs before the upper abs. For lower, do a reverse crunch. This exercise can be done on the ground or on an incline situp board. All you need is something behind your head to hold. If you use the incline board, use it with your feet lower than your head. Lying on your back, hold a weight or a chair leg (if lying on the floor) or the foot bar (if using the situp board) behind your head.. Keep the knees slightly bent. Pull your pelvis and legs up so that your knees are above your chest and then return to beginning position.

For upper abs - ab crunch. Lying on your back, put your knees up in the air so that your thighs are at a right angle to your torso, with your knees bent. If you like you can rest your feet on something, like a chair. Put your hands either behind your head or gently touching the sides of your head. Now, slowly raise your shoulders off the ground and try to touch your breastbone to your pelvis ( it can't ne done ) , breathing out as you go. Although the actual movement will be very small (your upper torso should move through less than 30 degrees) you should try to go as high as possible. Only your spine should bend, your hips should not move. Do these fairly slowly to avoid using momentum to help.

Do abs three or four times a week. Try to do ( 3/4 ) sets in the 15-30 rep range. Only rest when you absolutely must, so take a short (10-15sec) rest between sets and take 2 sec / rep You just want good abdominal tone more than abdominal size or mass, it probably makes sense to exercise the abs with lower intensity and more frequently, rather than with high intensity and less frequently.

Hope this helps

[trinh]

How much weight ? For 8 reps , you should be approaching failure or really struggling by the 7th or 8th rep - if you can 8 reps without too much trouble - add weight. Also, try and limit your break betweeen sets to 60 - 90 seconds- no more.



I've read somewhere and they said in order to tone or definition muscle , heavy weight should not be used?

[cell567]

An good overall workout is a full body workout 3 days a week. But, if you want to focus more attention on muscle groups, some sort of split workout would help.

One option is divide your workout into a 3-day program where you split upper body work into a push/pull strategy and work your lower body on a separate day. A 3 day might like Day 1: Chest-Triceps, Day 2: Back-Biceps, Day 3: Legs-Shoulders.

Another option is to go 5 days a week- one muscle group per day. In this type of workout, your week might be Chest, Back, Shoulders, Arms and Legs.

The number of exercises you're doing should fit the time available (pick about 3 exercises per muscle group & 8 reps ) and the number of sets you're doing (around 3-4 sets) for a 3 day - maybe 4 exercises and 4 sets ( 8 reps ) per muscle for the 5 day. How much weight ? For 8 reps , you should be approaching failure or really struggling by the 7th or 8th rep - if you can 8 reps without too much trouble - add weight. Also, try and limit your break betweeen sets to 60 - 90 seconds- no more.

Abs. Exercise the lower abs before the upper abs. For lower, do a reverse crunch. This exercise can be done on the ground or on an incline situp board. All you need is something behind your head to hold. If you use the incline board, use it with your feet lower than your head. Lying on your back, hold a weight or a chair leg (if lying on the floor) or the foot bar (if using the situp board) behind your head.. Keep the knees slightly bent. Pull your pelvis and legs up so that your knees are above your chest and then return to beginning position.

For upper abs - ab crunch. Lying on your back, put your knees up in the air so that your thighs are at a right angle to your torso, with your knees bent. If you like you can rest your feet on something, like a chair. Put your hands either behind your head or gently touching the sides of your head. Now, slowly raise your shoulders off the ground and try to touch your breastbone to your pelvis ( it can't ne done ) , breathing out as you go. Although the actual movement will be very small (your upper torso should move through less than 30 degrees) you should try to go as high as possible. Only your spine should bend, your hips should not move. Do these fairly slowly to avoid using momentum to help.

Do abs three or four times a week. Try to do ( 3/4 ) sets in the 15-30 rep range. Only rest when you absolutely must, so take a short (10-15sec) rest between sets and take 2 sec / rep You just want good abdominal tone more than abdominal size or mass, it probably makes sense to exercise the abs with lower intensity and more frequently, rather than with high intensity and less frequently.

Hope this helps

So for abs you say, do 3-4 times a week. Each time doing 3-4 sets of 15-30 reps, taking 10-15 seconds in between each set of reps and if an absolute break is needed, then take it, otherwise don't. Can you tell me as to what exercises correspond to which muscle groups. Thanks alot! *note* I havea total gym 2000 piece of junk machine in the garage. Works fully, but its an older model and Im missing many of the metal "keys" to place ne addons. So its basically an incline board with 2 handles to lift urself up and down. Can anything be done with this machine?

[poedua]

Same boat with cell here. I am happy with my weight but want to look more muscular without loosing nor gaining much weight ( like 1-5lbs gain is max ). Is this a good routine schedule?

Mon, Wed, Fri (20 min CV - 100 cal burned) + 1 hr weight after (Lat, Chest, triceps)
Tues, Thurs, Sat (20 min CV - 100 cal burned) + 1 hr weight after (Shoulder, Biceps)
Sunday OFF

As I mentioned in my earlier post could you to go a 5 days a week- one muscle group per day... 3/4 routines , 8 reps on each day

Mon - Chest, & Cardio & Abs
Tues - Back, & Cardio & Abs
Wed - Shoulders & Cardio
Thurs - Arms & Cardio & Abs
Fri - Cardio & Abs .....Legs ( Blast them - 2 day recovery)

Sat- OFF or Free day i.e light Cardio / Stretch
Sun - OFF

To help build mass overall, your primary focus should be on legs, chest & back, and of those 3 - legs, legs, legs !

[poedua]

I've read somewhere and they said in order to tone or definition muscle , heavy weight should not be used?

Definition is simply a matter of losing fat and tone is also getting the marble fat out of your muscles.

Training to failure ( heavy weight ) will help your muslces grow the best, but you can do a workout that doesn't go to failure and you will still prompt your body to adjust a grow muscle to handle the weight it's lifting.

[poedua]

So for abs you say, do 3-4 times a week. Each time doing 3-4 sets of 15-30 reps, taking 10-15 seconds in between each set of reps and if an absolute break is needed, then take it, otherwise don't. Can you tell me as to what exercises correspond to which muscle groups. Thanks alot! *note* I havea total gym 2000 piece of junk machine in the garage. Works fully, but its an older model and Im missing many of the metal "keys" to place ne addons. So its basically an incline board with 2 handles to lift urself up and down. Can anything be done with this machine?

Do you belong to a gym ?

[cell567]

I am signing up to Premier Fitness very soon.

[poedua]

I am signing up to Premier Fitness very soon.

This is a good basic workout - do it Monday, Wednesday, Friday
For this, we'll opt for more reps to start (12 ) for now and 1 set

Bench Press: 1-3 sets, 8-12 reps
Behind the Neck Press: 1-3 sets, 8-12 reps
Bentover Rows: 1-3 sets, 8-12 reps
Curls: 1-3 sets, 8-12 reps
Lying Tricep Extensions: 1-3 sets, 8-12 reps
Squats: 1-3 sets, 8-12 reps
Calf Raise: 1-3 sets, 15-20 reps
Abs: 1-3 sets, 15-20 reps ( upper & lower )

You would do this workout three times a week on non-consecutive days, usually working up from the one set per bodypart/exercise to three eventually, adding weight over time in the weeks and months you use this workout, while the workout would take anywhere from a half hour to an hour-and-a-half to complete, depending on how it's done.

Start with 1 set for 12 reps to start - maybe a week or so to get a feel of things - then eventually try for 3 sets @ 12 and then add weight to reach 3 sets @ 8. If you've worked out in the recent past you can get to 3 sets a lot quicker.

If you join the gym they'll swoop down on you to get a personal trainer - it's not a bad idea in the short term so you can learn proper technique and a wider range of exercises

[bdckr]

Also, you have to understand that there are different qualities of foods you eat. For example fructose is a low GI carb that does not get used by your body right away, but dextrose or maltodextrin is a high GI carb that gets broken down and used right away. When you have a low GI carb sitting around in your body and not getting used, it will turn into fat, whereas a high GI carb is usually used right away.

Not exactly right.

A high GI carb raises blood sugar faster than a low GI carb. If your body isn't using it quickly, the excess calories are stored.

A low GI carb raises blood sugar slower. Since there's a slower peak, you're less likely to have excess calories that need to be stored.

[ukhan]

Not exactly right.

A high GI carb raises blood sugar faster than a low GI carb. If your body isn't using it quickly, the excess calories are stored.

A low GI carb raises blood sugar slower. Since there's a slower peak, you're less likely to have excess calories that need to be stored.

I stand corrected, you are right. If you dont use the blood sugar quickly, it does get stored, but the same goes for low GI carbs too.

The idea of the post workout shake is that you will use that energy very quickly since you need it right after the workout because you are exhausted and your muscles are screaming for energy.

[poedua]

Not exactly right.

A high GI carb raises blood sugar faster than a low GI carb. If your body isn't using it quickly, the excess calories are stored.

A low GI carb raises blood sugar slower. Since there's a slower peak, you're less likely to have excess calories that need to be stored.

I think you guys are referring to the glycemic response of carbs - a food's ability to contribute glucose to the bloodstreram.

But, carbs shouldn't make you fat. Since we burn carbs for fuel during exersize, it's more likely that excess dietary fats will get stored as fat than carbs. If we exercise moderately, it's unlikely we'll fill up our glycogen stores very easily since we'll contually burning them via exercise. It's only when the glycogen stores get filled up that the excess calories wil get stored as fat. If you want to lose weight you actually need to fuel up on carbs from cereal, bread, pasta, potatoes to fuel your exercise and stay away from fats like butter, margarine etc.

[poedua]

I stand corrected, you are right. If you dont use the blood sugar quickly, it does get stored, but the same goes for low GI carbs too.

The idea of the post workout shake is that you will use that energy very quickly since you need it right after the workout because you are exhausted and your muscles are screaming for energy.

Your muscles can replace glycogen at an average rate of about 5% per hour -and it takes about 20 hours to re-fuel depleted muscles. The ideal is to consume carb rich foods/ shakes / drinks within 15 minutres of your workout for carbs-that's when the enzymes responsible for making glycogen are most active and will most rapidly replace glycogen. Something with a medium to high glycemic index is best - i.e bagel and orange juice, gatorade, rice cake, banana, gummi candy, raisins etc. Protein helps glycogen replacement too, but you only need 1 gram of protein for every 3 grams of carbs after a workout - the focus is on carbs for post workout recovery in drinks / shakes , not protein

[ctam]

There is also have been scientific evidence that if you take a protien shake right after a workout. It will be more beneficial than taking one an hour or two after a workout.

[CanadaBoy]

Do cardio for 10 minutes to get yoru heart rate up. Then weight train.

[bdckr]

I think you guys are referring to the glycemic response of carbs - a food's ability to contribute glucose to the bloodstreram.

But, carbs shouldn't make you fat. Since we burn carbs for fuel during exersize, it's more likely that excess dietary fats will get stored as fat than carbs. If we exercise moderately, it's unlikely we'll fill up our glycogen stores very easily since we'll contually burning them via exercise. It's only when the glycogen stores get filled up that the excess calories wil get stored as fat. If you want to lose weight you actually need to fuel up on carbs from cereal, bread, pasta, potatoes to fuel your exercise and stay away from fats like butter, margarine etc.
Sort of. The glycemic index.

You're mixing up physiology with outcome.

The outcome is this: a low fat diet is good for long-term weight control. About as good as calorie restricted diets (http://www.aafp.org/afp/20030201/cochrane.html).

That doesn't mean that dietary fat will make you fat. That's the physiology part.



You can come up with any number of theories as to why low fat diets help you lose weight. Doesn't mean it's true.

And try reading my post again: I didn't say that "carbohydrates make you fat."

I said that a high GI carb is more likely to contribute excess calories that need to be stored. A fast rise in your blood sugar is more likely to be recognized by your body as excess calories.

Excess calories are stored as fat. That's what makes you fat.


I was responding to another poster about the concept of low GI vs. high GI foods. Your response not only shows that you missed the point, but you've wandered off into an area you don't understand.

The practical advice you've given in this thread is pretty good. Don't spoil it with your theoretical advice.

[poedua]

.
The practical advice you've given in this thread is pretty good. .

Thanks

[t_ginuwine]

Very active = 1.4 - 1.5 (Daily Intense exercise + construction work most of day)
• Active = 1.3 * 1.4 (Daily exercise + work on feet most of day)

• Light active = 1.1 - 1.2 (Regular Exercise 3 times/week + desk job or at home most of day)

• Sedentary = 1 (No exercise + desk job or at home most of day)

So, here is a summary of the steps in formula #2

Men:
1. Convert weight in pounds to kilograms
2. Multiply Weight in kilograms x 24 hours = BMR
3. BMR x Activity Factor = Daily Caloric Needs

Women:
1. Convert weight in pounds to kilograms
2. Weight in kilograms x 24 hours = BMR
3. BMR x 0.9 = adjusted BMR for women
4. Adjusted BMR x Activity Factor = Daily Caloric Needs

For our example 220-pound person formula #2 would work like this:

• 220lbs/2.2 = 100 kilograms
€ 100kg x 24 hours = 2400 calories (BMR)
€ 2400 calories x 1.2 = 2880 calories to maintain current weight
€ Now to gain weight, I will need to add between 500-600 calories per day. This gives a grand total of 3380-3480 calories per day to gain weight,


Calories should be high. Take bodyweight and multiply it by 18 or 20 depending on fat gain. This should give you about 500 to 1,000 above maintenance. Protein should be at least 0.8-1 gram per pound of bodyweight. Avoid saturated fat (within reason).

Take a protein supplement before and after training. Use creatine as well. EFAs should be included (Fish oil and CLA).

Actually, most guys take in too much protein. It isn't that too much protein will hurt them - assuming they are healthy to begin with - but too much protein can actually inhibit gains. I know, it sounds totally contradictory to what you read everywhere, but it is true. Let me explain.

The ability of the body to grow is effected by the ratio of protein to carbs. It is an inverted U shaped curve - or bell curve - where the top or highest point of the curve is a ratio of 12-15% protein to carbs (diet consisting of ~15% protein). At one peak you have all carbs, at the other you have all protein. It has to do with thermogenesis and hormones.

So, if a skinny guy wants to gain weight, he needs to plan a diet where he gets 15% of his calories from protein.
Now this may seem contradictory to the general rule of 1 gram per pound bodyweight. I'm not saying that a guy can't gain weight with more than 15% calories from protein, I'm only saying that weight gain is greatest at 15%. He will be ok with an intake of 0.75 grams/pound FFM to gain muscle. In fact, everybody should use FFM instead of bodyweight to plan protein intake, but sometimes it's just too hard to figure it out, so most people use bodyweight.

For a guy who isn't all that skinny, or even a little fat, he should increase his protien intake to 20-25%. This will increase thermogenesis and prevent some fat gain as calories increase above maintenance.

[steve.m]

imo better to use calculations which use LBM (lean body mass) in daily intake calculations.

[poedua]

Take a protein supplement before and after training. Use creatine as well. EFAs should be included (Fish oil and CLA).

.

Why do you need protein specifically ' before ' a workout ?

Shouldn't the emphasis be on carbs to fuel a workout via glycogen - ditto for a post workout recovery shake - i.e emphasis on carbs ?

Also, how is taking creatine any different than just taking in extra carbs as an energy source ? I thought creatine phospate was used by muscles to generate energy only for about 1-10 second of ' intense' work i.e brief intense workouts.