Hamas murders Israeli businessman

[d_jedi]

Hamas kills Israeli captive


JERUSALEM (AP) — Hamas militants claimed responsibility today for the kidnapping and killing of Sasson Nuriel, a 51-year-old Jerusalem businessman who was found dead Monday.

The militants said in a statement that they had kidnapped Nuriel on Wednesday with the intention of trading him for Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails. However, after Israel began a series of arrest raids against West Bank militants, they decided to kill him, the statement said.

Nuriel was found dead Monday near the West Bank town of Ramallah and police said the attack appeared to be a terror attack.

Public Security Minister Gideon Ezra said Monday that security forces had in recent days arrested several Hamas members near Ramallah on suspicion the group had kidnapped the businessman.

Police said a Hamas activist arrested Sunday led the forces to Nuriel's body in an industrial zone in the West Bank town of Beitunia near Ramallah.

In its statement Tuesday, Hamas' military wing said it had kidnapped Nuriel, whom it identified as an agent of Israel's Shin Bet security service, in a plan to trade him for Palestinian prisoners.

After the arrest raids, the militants decided to kill him, the statement said.

Now, someone explain how this is "legitimate resistance" by "freedom fighters", and not terrorism? Hmm? Anyone?

[poedua]

Now, someone explain how this is "legitimate resistance" by "freedom fighters", and not terrorism? Hmm? Anyone?

Taking hostages is an act of terrorism according to the UN Hostage Convention ( 1979 )...

The Convention provides that

' any person who seizes or detains and threatens to kill, to injure, or to continue to detain another person in order to compel a third party, namely, a State, an international intergovernmental organization, a natural or juridical person, or a group of persons, to do or abstain from doing any act as an explicit or implicit condition for the release of the hostage commits the offence of taking of hostage within the meaning of this Convention;'

By that definition, it seems Hamas committed a terrorist act by holding that businessman as a hostage in hopes of using him in exchange for Palestinian prisoners.

[insanity]

You want to talk about terrorism, well take a look at this article. Both sides have cold blooded killers - don't try and make one out to be worse than the other. The Palestinans are living under a state of occupation - do you understand what the word means. It's nice of you to post articles and then just give the label of terrorist to the Palestinians.

From: B'TSELEM - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights
http://www.btselem.org/english/Press_Releases/20050627.asp
According to B'Tselem's figures, since the beginning of the Intifada (in late September 2000) until 26 June 2005, Israeli security forces have killed at least 1,722 Palestinians not taking part in the hostilities, among them 563 minors. In that period of time, the Military Police investigated only 108 cases involving Palestinians killed or injured by soldiers in the Occupied Territories . An indictment was issued in only 19 of these cases. In only two cases were soldiers convicted of causing the death of a Palestinian.

The Judge Advocate General's policy not to open Military Police investigations into the killing of civilians sends IDF commanders and soldiers the message that it is unlikely they will be held accountable for harming civilians. This message has led to a trigger-happy attitude, and the extensive harm to Palestinian civilians.

[poedua]

You want to talk about terrorism, well take a look at this article. Both sides have cold blooded killers - don't try and make one out to be worse than the other. The Palestinans are living under a state of occupation - do you understand what the word means. It's nice of you to post articles and then just give the label of terrorist to the Palestinians.

From: B'TSELEM - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights
http://www.btselem.org/english/Press_Releases/20050627.asp
According to B'Tselem's figures, since the beginning of the Intifada (in late September 2000) until 26 June 2005, Israeli security forces have killed at least 1,722 Palestinians not taking part in the hostilities, among them 563 minors. In that period of time, the Military Police investigated only 108 cases involving Palestinians killed or injured by soldiers in the Occupied Territories . An indictment was issued in only 19 of these cases. In only two cases were soldiers convicted of causing the death of a Palestinian.

The Judge Advocate General's policy not to open Military Police investigations into the killing of civilians sends IDF commanders and soldiers the message that it is unlikely they will be held accountable for harming civilians. This message has led to a trigger-happy attitude, and the extensive harm to Palestinian civilians.

You raise a good point.

If Israel's security forces have been indulging in brutality, and allowing Air Force attacks on Palestinian civilians population centres - killing innocent civilians - they need to be held accountable by the international community.
If a Jewish Human Rights organization like B’Tselem suggests that the Israel army investigations of civilian killings are a ' joke '- that speaks for itself.

The disturbing thing is the public reactions by Bush's officials to reported Israeli violations of international humanitarian law. They seem to continue to emphasize Israel's right of self-defense without clear reference to international humanitarian law standards, and the U.S. has taken no public steps to pressure Israel to meet its obligations under those standards.

And, I think that is why the defintion of what is terrorism and what isn't becomes difficult. Can armed forces of internationally recognized soveriegn states like Israel be accused of ' terrorism ' when their jets attack Palestinian settlement and indiscriminatley kill civilians or is it better described as a ' crime against humanity ' by legitimate government forces ? A tough call. Earlier, I suggested a possible definition of terrorism as being the killing, disruption, or destruction of something of value for political purposes by someone, in a covert manner, other than a government or its agents acting in an overt manner i.e the IRA, al Qeda etc. Perhaps defintions of terrorism should include acts by governments and their forces as well.

[gilboman]

Isreal like the US are well funded terrorists. Palestine is just poor terrorists.

but they are all terrorists anyways.

[i6s1]

the Military Police investigated only 108 cases involving Palestinians killed or injured by soldiers in the Occupied Territories . An indictment was issued in only 19 of these cases. In only two cases were soldiers convicted of causing the death of a Palestinian.



OK, now provide figures for how many investigations the PA had into the murder of innocent Jews, how many terrorists were charged, how many were convicted, and how long thier sentences are.

Isrealis have the moral high ground by any measure. When the Palestinians can fight as ethically as the Isrealis, then I'll ask the Isrealis to raise the bar again. Until then, the onus is on the Palestinians to follow the rules of war - even just a little.

[asim99]

OK, now provide figures for how many investigations the PA had into the murder of innocent Jews, how many terrorists were charged, how many were convicted, and how long thier sentences are.

Isrealis have the moral high ground by any measure. When the Palestinians can fight as ethically as the Isrealis, then I'll ask the Isrealis to raise the bar again. Until then, the onus is on the Palestinians to follow the rules of war - even just a little.

really? i'll see who has the higher moral ground, when palestinian authority has same kind of arsenal and equipment that the occuprying israeli army has...give them the planes and tanks and we'll see

[Txiasaeia]

really? i'll see who has the higher moral ground, when palestinian authority has same kind of arsenal and equipment that the occuprying israeli army has...give them the planes and tanks and we'll see

Oh, that's rich. Israel doesn't use children as suicide bombers, bombers which go after both military and civilian targets. Israel has at least attempted to participate in the peace process (and have done so since 48, when the state was established); the goal of militant Palestinians is not coexistence, but the destruction of Israel as a state. There's absolutely no way that the Palestinians hold the higher moral ground in this terrible conflict, if only for these two simple facts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict

[asim99]

Oh, that's rich. Israel doesn't use children as suicide bombers, bombers which go after both military and civilian targets. Israel has at least attempted to participate in the peace process (and have done so since 48, when the state was established); the goal of militant Palestinians is not coexistence, but the destruction of Israel as a state. There's absolutely no way that the Palestinians hold the higher moral ground in this terrible conflict, if only for these two simple facts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict

how long have they been using suicide bombers? educate me
before that, it was simply stone-throwing that everyone made fun of

[i6s1]

really? i'll see who has the higher moral ground, when palestinian authority has same kind of arsenal and equipment that the occuprying israeli army has...give them the planes and tanks and we'll see

So are you admiting that Isreal currently has the moral high ground? Or are you using the material disadvantage of the Palestinians as an excuse for thier immoral behaivior? Can they murder businessmen because they don't have tanks?

[asim99]

So are you admiting that Isreal currently has the moral high ground? Or are you using the material disadvantage of the Palestinians as an excuse for thier immoral behaivior? Can they murder businessmen because they don't have tanks?

of course, they DO NOT have any moral surperiority

they would have had moral superiority when they treated palestinian families who are evicted from their homes with same respect as they did when israeli settlers were evicted

the businessman was identified "as an agent of Israel's Shin Bet security service"

[Mr._Hankey]

how long have they been using suicide bombers? educate me
before that, it was simply stone throwing that everyone made fun of
Basically from 1993 when Rabin decided to share Israel's arsenal of guns with PLO terrorists foolishly hoping to earn their trust. It's definitely Israel's fault that palestinian terrorism still exists. If they had the balls they would've slaughtered all the Hamas and Fatah human waste back in the eighties and made Jordan and Egypt sign a refugee agreement to accept the former residents of their occupation in Israel.

the businessman was identified "as an agent of Israel's Shin Bet security service"
Cheap PLO propaganda.

[danfromwaterloo]

Currently, the appearance of the breakup of the current peace process can be linked almost definitely to the Palestinian government.

We can debate back and forth who has the most blood on their hands, but in the end, both sides do.

The Israelis have made the attempt to withdraw from occupied territory - and for their efforts, they end up getting mortared and kidnapped. This is because the PLO has done little or nothing to self-police. If Hamas and Islamic Jihad had towed the line, and kept up with the peace process, it appears evident that it would have worked.

On their first opportunity to strike from their newly given land, they have taken it. Frankly, I've traditionally been completely neutral on the entire issue, blaming both sides equally. But the two terrorist groups in Palestine are making it increasingly difficult to show that they are not more to blame.

Show me how Hamas and Islamic Jihad have attempted to keep the peace recently? Show me how they want peace? What actions have they taken? Exactly. They're precipitating this whole thing.

[i6s1]

the businessman was identified "as an agent of Israel's Shin Bet security service"

... identified by Hamas

[asim99]

... identified by Hamas

so?
if the terrorist state of israel can 'identify' people, why can't a terrorist group do the same

[poedua]

how long have they been using suicide bombers? educate me
before that, it was simply stone-throwing that everyone made fun of


I'm not sure how many children ahve actually died in the role of suicide bomber , but there seems to be evidence that kids are being taught to be one.

From the BBC limk http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1446003.stm


' The Islamic Jihad is running a summer school - to teach boys the benefits of becoming suicide bombers.

A new generation of children, Palestinian boys aged between 12 and 15 years old, is growing up amid conflict and violence. '


I would suggest that the international community sees the manipulation of children in this way ( suicide camps ) , as a violation of every international treaty and convention meant to protect children in these sorts of conflicts. If you accept that the exploitation of children is both profoundly immoral and fundamentally illegal rehardless of what race or country you represent, then the argument ot associating ' suicide camps for kids ' with the ' moral high ground ' seems rather weak at best.

[asim99]

I'm not sure how many children ahve actually died in the role of suicide bomber , but there seems to be evidence that kids are being taught to be one.

my question was not about the number of suicide bombers but rather since when have the palestinians been using suicide bombers?

[lip1978]

We're talking about a group of people, who as far back as 1972, decided that it was a good idea to take hostage, and kill 9 athletes at the Olympic games.
9 athletes who had trained their whole lives only to be gunned down in cold blood.

[i6s1]

so?
if the terrorist state of israel can 'identify' people, why can't a terrorist group do the same

Isreal is not a terrorist state.

With your logic, Hamas could murder anyone they want and then claim they were mossad, or colaborators. And they do this.

Further, it is still terrorism to kidnap, hold hostage, and then murder someone - even if they are Mossad, Shin Bet, CIA or CSIS.

[poedua]

my question was not about the number of suicide bombers but rather since when have the palestinians been using suicide bombers?

That's why I said at the outset that i didn't know if any had actually been used, if ever.

But, I must say, it is disturbing to see pictures on the internet of children and infants dressed as suicide bombers - see the pictures in this link

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~nahm0002/child_abuse.html


Any idea why a palestinian parent, or any parent for that matter - this is a parent issue after all, would stage and abuse their children in this way ?

It does make you wonder about the ' morals ' of doing this to kids IMHO.

[asim99]

That's why I said at the outset that i didn't know if any had actually been used, if ever.
But, I must say, it is disturbing to see pictures on the internet of children and infants dressed as suicide bombers - see the pictures in this link
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~nahm0002/child_abuse.html
Any idea why a palestinian parent, or any parent for that matter - this is a parent issue after all, would stage and abuse their children in this way ?
It does make you wonder about the ' morals ' of doing this to kids IMHO.

of course it is disturbing...but there must be something really really really disturbing that is pissing off those palestinians that much...may be they saw their seniors grow up throwing rocks at israeli tanks without any result

btw, some of those pictures might as well be posted on the national rifles association website

[asim99]

Isreal is not a terrorist state.

With your logic, Hamas could murder anyone they want and then claim they were mossad, or colaborators. And they do this.

Further, it is still terrorism to kidnap, hold hostage, and then murder someone - even if they are Mossad, Shin Bet, CIA or CSIS.

of course it is a terrorist state, and the only one in middle east with weapons of mass destruction

[lip1978]

I still don't get that argument - "Look at the causes"...
We're talking about strapping your kids with dynamite and telling them the right thing to do is blow yourself up.

The thing is, this is the 1st generation of Palestinian parents who have been brought up under Arafat's propoganda machine. This next generation is another product of that, maybe even doubled. It's a shame Arafat's not around to see his creation. Because you're fooling yourself if you don't think the PA/PLO haven't been feeding the entire generation the idea of attacking Israel for the past 58 years. Check the TV shows, commercials, billboards and schoolbooks.

[i6s1]

of course it is disturbing...but there must be something really really really disturbing that is pissing off those palestinians that much...may be they saw their seniors grow up throwing rocks at israeli tanks without any result

Naw, they've just got psycotic violent parents.


btw, some of those pictures might as well be posted on the national rifles association website

These abused children aren't target shooting or hunting ducks.




of course it is a terrorist state, and the only one in middle east with weapons of mass destruction

The only one? So you're saying that Iran doesn't have chemical weapons?

http://cns.miis.edu/research/cbw/possess.htm

[asim99]

I still don't get that argument - "Look at the causes"...
We're talking about strapping your kids with dynamite and telling them the right thing to do is blow yourself up.

The thing is, this is the 1st generation of Palestinian parents who have been brought up under Arafat's propoganda machine. This next generation is a product of that. It's a shame Arafat's not around to see his creation. Because you're fooling yourself if you don't think the PA/PLO haven't been feeding the entire generation the idea of attacking Israel for the past 58 years. Check the TV shows, commercials, billboards and schoolbooks.

i know what you mean...its like watching too much american television can indoctrinate you with the fantasy that the state of israel is right and justified whenever it uses terror tactics to oppress its palestinian citizens

[asim99]

These abused children aren't target shooting or hunting ducks.

or killing their classmates or schoolteachers...

[lip1978]

or killing their classmates or schoolteachers...

Good, now that we can all agree that it's a bad thing, maybe you can agree that your oh-so pure Palestinians should be trying to discourage it instead of having summer camps to promote suicide bombings.

[i6s1]

or killing their classmates or schoolteachers...

These children are being encouraged by thier parents to murder Jews when they grow up. You can't find a parallel in the US or anywhere. Parents in the US don't hope thier kids grow up to schoolyard murderers. Parents in Palestine want thier kids to grow up and be suicide bombers.

It's messed up that school shooting happen in the states, it's obscene that Palestinans hope thier kids grow up to murder Jews.

[Txiasaeia]

how long have they been using suicide bombers? educate me
before that, it was simply stone-throwing that everyone made fun of

They've been using children suicide bombers for much longer than Israel has.

[asim99]

These children are being encouraged by thier parents to murder Jews when they grow up. You can't find a parallel in the US or anywhere. Parents in the US don't hope thier kids grow up to schoolyard murderers. Parents in Palestine want thier kids to grow up and be suicide bombers.

It's messed up that school shooting happen in the states, it's obscene that Palestinans hope thier kids grow up to murder Jews.

you are generalizing way too much...i am sure an average palestinian would never do that...there are extreme people everywhere..

[i6s1]

They've been using children suicide bombers for much longer than Israel has.

Has Isreal ever even had a suicide bomber?

[asim99]

Has Isreal ever even had a suicide bomber?

why would they need one, when they can throw bombs from thousands of feet above...
give palestinians bomber planes, and i am sure the suicide bombing will come to an end

[lip1978]

you are generalizing way too much...i am sure an average palestinian would never do that...there are extreme people everywhere..

http://www.edume.org/reports/4/report.htm
Palestinian textbooks

http://inhonor.net/videos.php
I recommend the videos After Arafat and Talking Bird, both from the official Palestinian TV station.

I look forward to your comments.

[Txiasaeia]

Has Isreal ever even had a suicide bomber?

That's the point ;)

why would they need one, when they can throw bombs from thousands of feet above...
give palestinians bomber planes, and i am sure the suicide bombing will come to an end

I really find it difficult to feel bad for a country that has repeatedly stated, through words and actions, that they refuse to stop fighting with Israel until Israel is wiped from the face of the earth. It would be an entirely different matter if Palestine wanted peace and Israel refused, but Palestine has proven again and again, for over fifty years, that they don't want peace. Boo fricking hoo.

[i6s1]

you are generalizing way too much...i am sure an average palestinian would never do that...there are extreme people everywhere..

The average Palestinian supports terrorism. The average Palestinian is extreme - that's the problem. Although most Palestinians wouldn't kill someone, enough of them are willing to do it that Hamas doesn't have any trouble finding martyrs.


60% of Palestinians support terrorist attacks inside Isreal. What percentage of Americans support schoolyard shootings? What percentage of Isrealis support terrorism against Palestinians?

[asim99]

http://www.edume.org/reports/4/report.htm
Palestinian textbooks

http://inhonor.net/videos.php
I recommend the videos After Arafat and Talking Bird, both from the official Palestinian TV station.

I look forward to your comments.

i'd recommend reading pakistani textbooks...

[asim99]

The average Palestinian supports terrorism. The average Palestinian is extreme - that's the problem. Although most Palestinians wouldn't kill someone, but enough of them are willing to do it that Hamas doesn't have any trouble finding martyrs.

that is what your indoctrination tells you to assume

[gilboman]

The average Palestinian supports terrorism. The average Palestinian is extreme - that's the problem. Although most Palestinians wouldn't kill someone, but enough of them are willing to do it that Hamas doesn't have any trouble finding martyrs.

and you are getting this average paletinian opinion from?? :lol: :lol:

[asim99]

I really find it difficult to feel bad for a country that has repeatedly stated, through words and actions, that they refuse to stop fighting with Israel until Israel is wiped from the face of the earth. It would be an entirely different matter if Palestine wanted peace and Israel refused, but Palestine has proven again and again, for over fifty years, that they don't want peace. Boo fricking hoo.

too bad, you can't shoo them away that easily...

israel has to prove it has considers welfare of palestinians as important as that of its immigrant jewish citizens, before it can be trusted...and it has failed to do that time and again

[insanity]

If the tables were turned (i.e. Palestinians in Israel's place and vice-versa), the Israeli's would have done the same. They have enough wacko's on their side as well. Oppress people, give them absolutely crappy living conditions and see what happens.

[lip1978]

If the tables were turned (i.e. Palestinians in Israel's place and vice-versa), the Israeli's would have done the same. They have enough wacko's on their side as well. Oppress people, give them absolutely crappy living conditions and see what happens.

Umm, yeah, cause there were tons of suicide bombings during the Holocaust. Thanks for pulling that out of your butt.

[lip1978]

i'd recommend reading pakistani textbooks...

I have no idea what you mean by this.
I give you 2 state created media pieces asking children to take up arms, and a comprehensive overview of anti-Semitism in their textbooks, and you say this?

[asim99]

Umm, yeah, cause there were tons of suicide bombings during the Holocaust. Thanks for pulling that out of your butt.

huh...so you think they wouldnt have done that if they could? you must live in very simple world

[i6s1]

and you are getting this average paletinian opinion from?? :lol: :lol:

http://www.pcpsr.org/

Findings show that support for the Tel Aviv night club suicide attack, which took place about three weeks ago, reaches 29% compared to 77% for the Bir Shiba suicide attack in September 2004**** and 75% for the Maxim Restaurant suicide attack in Haifa in October 2003.

These are from surveys of Palestinans by a Palestinian group. They are asked about a specific terrorist attack inside Isreal proper. I quoted 60% because that's what I've read before, but this source is Palestinian, so you can't claim bias, and it actually shows that as many as 77% support the murder of Jews in Isreal.

(Support dropped for the Febuary Tel Aviv attack, but I tend to think that was due to the danger it played in the peace process, not because Palestinans have had a huge change of morals. That is to say they still think terrorist attacks are moral, just not stratigically smart at this point. You're welcome to suggest your own conclusions.)

****NOTE: The Beersheba attacks were actually August of 2004

[asim99]

I have no idea what you mean by this.
I give you 2 state created media pieces asking children to take up arms, and a comprehensive overview of anti-Semitism in their textbooks, and you say this?

i will look at those links later...
i mentioned pakistani textbooks, cuz material, similar in sentiment, can be found those books as well

[lip1978]

i will look at those links later...
i mentioned pakistani textbooks, cuz material, similar in sentiment, can be found those books as well

Ok, I thought you were trying to prove a point. Instead, you try to explain that anti-Semitism is rampant throughout the Arab world, and that it's not the extreme, but the norm.
I appreciate that.

[i6s1]

that is what your indoctrination tells you to assume

Wrong. My "indoctrination" (or upbringing) was at the hands of hippies who told me that everyone was equal, everyone can get along, there are two sides to every fight. Growing up in Canada taught me multiculturalism, where people are afraid to say that there's something wrong with someone elses culture.

It wasn't until I grew out of my indoctrination that I realized there is something wrong with Palestinian culture. I see too many pictures of terrorist supporters having Hamas rallys to think that they're some sort of disgraced minority. Palestinians have some pretty big death-cult issues to work out, and blaming Isreal for everything isn't going end thier suffering.

[i6s1]

huh...so you think they wouldnt have done that if they could? you must live in very simple world

Jews absolutely could have launched suicide attacks against civilians.

In spring of '45 the Polish resistance, which had many, many Jews, was able to create an uprising that occupied several German divisions. If you think they could do this without the simple materials required for a bomb vest, you're quite clearly mistaken.

There had to be thousands of Jews who had the means to launch a suicide attack against German civilians but chose not to.

[Mr._Hankey]

why would they need one, when they can throw bombs from thousands of feet above...
give palestinians bomber planes, and i am sure the suicide bombing will come to an end

1. Israel never owned any bomber planes, they use fighter planes and Apaches.
2. Bombing of terrorist infrastructures is a very degenerate response compared to those mortars launched daily by the Hamas, 50 of them fired on a single day.
Israel also gives an advance notice before it bombs launch pads to minimize casualties among terrorists.

[rb]

Back to the OP post , blowing up buses full of commuters has been going on for ages ...or killing of air travellers etc etc , as long as their Jewish they apparently are fair game for this "war" :mad:

[poedua]

of course it is disturbing...but there must be something really really really disturbing that is pissing off those palestinians that much...may be they saw their seniors grow up throwing rocks at israeli tanks without any result

btw, some of those pictures might as well be posted on the national rifles association website

I see your point on a Rifle Association parent doing this.. If they were picture of kids in the U.S. with a gap T-shirt holding a hunting rifle with a parent I could see the comparison

But, these Palistinian kids are shown wearing either Martyrs Brigade and Hamas headbands, carrying AK-47 M-16 assault rifles, wearing suicide belts and posing with pictures of former suicide bombers / martyrs - it goes way beyond a simpler firearm issue.

I think the National Rifle Association's goal is simply committed to preserving the right of all law-abiding individuals to purchase, possess and use firearms for legitimate purpose. The Federtal US gun law is quite clear. It's against the law for persons less than 18 years of age to purchase or own a shotgun or rifle - so you'd never see pictures of kids underage with guns being advocated by the NRA. This is a far cry from what the pictures of these poor abused Palestinian kids depict.

[poedua]

why would they need one, when they can throw bombs from thousands of feet above...
give palestinians bomber planes, and i am sure the suicide bombing will come to an end

I wonder if the terrorism would in fact stop.

Back on Post # 3 you stated....


' The Palestinans are living under a state of occupation - do you understand what the word means.'


I'm assuming that by state of occupation you mean Israeli control over the West Bank and Gaza as a result of the Six Day War of June 1967 - is that right ? And, I assume your argument is that 'occupation' causes terrorism .- is that right ?

Because if I understand the philosophies & goals of the Hamas and the Hizbullah correctly, they've repeatedly declared ( i.e see the Hamas covenant ) that even if Israel would fully withdraw from the territories they will continue their attacks, since they refute Israel's basic right to exist.

My question to you is, in your opinion and if you were in charge of Palestinian freedom fighters, would have the Palestinian terrorism stop if all Palestinian land ' occupied ' by Israel in 1967 was relinquished ? Or if the ' occupation' stopped - would Palestinian terrorism simply continue if you were in charge ?

[plymouthhater]

I wonder if the terrorism would in fact stop.

Back on Post # 3 you stated....


' The Palestinans are living under a state of occupation - do you understand what the word means.'


I'm assuming that by state of occupation you mean Israeli control over the West Bank and Gaza as a result of the Six Day War of June 1967 - is that right ? And, I assume your argument is that 'occupation' causes terrorism .- is that right ?

Because if I understand the philosophies & goals of the Hamas and the Hizbullah correctly, they've repeatedly declared ( i.e see the Hamas covenant ) that even if Israel would fully withdraw from the territories they will continue their attacks, since they refute Israel's basic right to exist.

My question to you is, in your opinion and if you were in charge of Palestinian freedom fighters, would have the Palestinian terrorism stop if all Palestinian land ' occupied ' by Israel in 1967 was relinquished ? Or if the ' occupation' stopped - would Palestinian terrorism simply continue if you were in charge ?

The Palestinians were under Egyptian "occupation" in Gaza prior to June of '67 and under Jordanian "occupation" in the West Bank prior to June '67.
So, it's not "occupation" they are protesting but rather "Israeli occupation."

Under the Camp David negotiations Egypt was offered Gaza back and declined because they didn't want the Palestinians. Jordan doesn't want the West Bank back either (or so King Abdullah has said). It seems the Palestinians are seen as the problem children of the Arab world ie NOBODY wants them!

They got Gaza back and the first thing they did was to destroy the only decent source of income there ie the Israeli hot houses.
The Israeli's told them to straighten up their act and if they behaved themselves, more would follow. They couldn't behave for even a week!

So, now the new Israeli policy is something like 5 artillery shells lobbed into Gaza every time the Palestinians fire one Quassam rocket at Sderot in Israel.

I think the best retaliation the Israelis could do is to cut off their electricity, sewage treatment and telephone service for 1 day for every Quassam rocket. :lol:

How long do you think the Americans would stand by if we were lobbing rockets from Ft Erie Ontario into Buffalo Ny?

[asim99]

Back on Post # 3 you stated....


' The Palestinans are living under a state of occupation - do you understand what the word means.'

although i did not say that (check back for record), i agree with the statement...palestinians in the west bank and jerusalem ARE living under occupation

[Txiasaeia]

although i did not say that (check back for record), i agree with the statement...palestinians in the west bank and jerusalem ARE living under occupation

And why is this? It's because in 48, when Palestine was divided into two equal portions, the Arab world was incensed and attacked Israel. Israel repelled that attack, and over the next fifty years conquered land that was originally given to Palestine. The original Israeli declaration of independence stated that they wished to live in peace with their Arab neighbours, who violently refused to share that sentiment.

If there are Palestinians living under occupation, it's becase Arabs in general and Palestinians specifically refused to live in peace with Israel. The situation in Palestine and Israel today is equivalent to a thief getting shot while invading somebody else's house, then complaining about being shot.

[Marc7]

The situation in Palestine and Israel today is equivalent to a thief getting shot while invading somebody else's house, then complaining about being shot.


Please stop insulting zionists!

[Txiasaeia]

Please stop insulting zionists!

Oh, the hilarity! It's prodigious!

[insanity]

Umm, yeah, cause there were tons of suicide bombings during the Holocaust. Thanks for pulling that out of your butt.

Hmm, maybe back then they were just a bunch of wimps. Now that they have their new god America they can do whatever they please. Without America there is no Israel. Oops did I pull that out of my butt again :twisted:

[lip1978]

Hmm, maybe back then they were just a bunch of wimps. Now that they have their new god America they can do whatever they please. Without America there is no Israel. Oops did I pull that out of my butt again :twisted:

Yes, you did. It was Britain and the U.N that helped to create Israel. U.S wasn't the world player it is today back in 1948.

Also, that's a pretty anti-Semetic thing to say.

[i6s1]

although i did not say that (check back for record), i agree with the statement...palestinians in the west bank and jerusalem ARE living under occupation

Not Jerusalem, the old city was annexed after Six Day War.

[asim99]

Not Jerusalem, the old city was annexed after Six Day War.

its not like israel won the war fair and square...it couldnt have possibly done so without outside help

[Txiasaeia]

its not like israel won the war fair and square...it couldnt have possibly done so without outside help

Uh, you *do* realise that the Six Day War was Israel against Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq, right?

[asim99]

Uh, you *do* realise that the Six Day War was Israel against Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq, right?

i do not see the name of any superpower in that list of nobodies...mind listing the names of countries helping israel?

[Txiasaeia]

i do not see the name of any superpower in that list of nobodies...mind listing the names of countries helping israel?

I listed the official combatants of the war in response to your statement that "its not like israel won the war fair and square...it couldnt have possibly done so without outside help." The fact of the matter is that it was four countries against one; if Israel *was* assisted by the US (proof?), then that only served to even out the obvious disparity between the two sides.

(If Allah had willed it, wouldn't there be the Palestinian flag waving in Jerusalem as we speak?)

[asim99]

I listed the official combatants of the war in response to your statement that "its not like israel won the war fair and square...it couldnt have possibly done so without outside help." The fact of the matter is that it was four countries against one; if Israel *was* assisted by the US (proof?), then that only served to even out the obvious disparity between the two sides.

(If Allah had willed it, wouldn't there be the Palestinian flag waving in Jerusalem as we speak?)

you did not really name countries 'assisting' israel in your rhetorical answer

as to what allah's will is, i'll let him/her tell you himself/herself ;)

[Mr._Hankey]

If I remember correctly, US voted neutral in the UN resolution for the establishment of Israel. So asim before you prove your wittiness once more, I'll save you the trouble - US didn't have any involvement in Israel's war of independence.

[asim99]

If I remember correctly, US voted neutral in the UN resolution for the establishment of Israel. So asim before you prove your wittiness once more, I'll save you the trouble - US didn't have any involvement in Israel's war of independence.

i don't think i have mentioned anything like that

by the way:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Establishment_of_the_State_of_I srael
The Declaration of Independence of the State of Israel was publicly read in Tel Aviv on May 14, 1948, before the expiring of the British Mandate of Palestine on midnight of the May 15, 1948. It was drafted in the months beforehand, and the final version is a result of a compromise between the various parts of the Israeli public of that time. On May 14, 1948, the Vaad Leumi (Jewish National Council) gathered at the Tel Aviv Museum of Art, and approved the proclamation, declaring the establishment of the State of Israel. The new state and its government was recognized de facto minutes later by the United States and three days later de jure by the Soviet Union (Stalin thought a communist or communist-oriented Jewish state could be a useful "thorn in the back" to his capitalist rivals in the Middle East).

[Txiasaeia]

you did not really name countries 'assisting' israel in your rhetorical answer

I do know that, officially, the US didn't like Israel's preemptive strike:

On 30 May Nasser responded to Johnson's request of eleven days earlier and agreed to send his vice-president, Zakkariya Muhieddin, to Washington on 7 June to explore a diplomatic settlement in "precisely the opening the White House had sought". US Secretary of State Dean Rusk was bitterly disappointed by Israel's pre-emptive strike on 5 June as he had been certain he would have been able to find a diplomatic solution if the meeting had gone ahead.

As for whether the US or UK assisted Israel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_day_war#Claims_of_U.S._and_British_combat_supp ort_and_Soviet_Instigation. I'll sum up the article: the Arab nations involved were upset that they looked bad for losing, so they invented a story that the US helped Israel.

On the other hand, documents have proven that the USSR assisted the Arab participants:

The Soviet Union actively backed the military needs of the Arab states. It was later revealed that on 13 May a Soviet intelligence report given by Nikolai Podgorny to Anwar Sadat falsely claimed that Israeli troops were massing along the Syrian border.

So not only did the US *not* help Israel, but the USSR aided the Arab nations with intelligence data and they *still* lost. Ouch.

[Mr._Hankey]

i don't think i have mentioned anything like that
And now you're not going to.

[asim99]

And now you're not going to.

read above

anyways, israel could not have survived and turned into an agressive terrorist state, were it not for the backing of the british and american powers

[asim99]

I do know that, officially, the US didn't like Israel's preemptive strike:

As for whether the US or UK assisted Israel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_day_war#Claims_of_U.S._and_British_combat_supp ort_and_Soviet_Instigation. I'll sum up the article: the Arab nations involved were upset that they looked bad for losing, so they invented a story that the US helped Israel.

On the other hand, documents have proven that the USSR assisted the Arab participants:

So not only did the US *not* help Israel, but the USSR aided the Arab nations with intelligence data and they *still* lost. Ouch.

huh...and israel "won" on its own...wow!
may be their god woke up to punish the brute arabs...

US gave 90 million dollars to israel in military loan the year before war (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html) (almost seven times more than the year before)...who are you kidding

[Mr._Hankey]

huh...and israel "won" on its own...wow!
may be their god woke up to punish the brute arabs...
Maybe it was just that the invading arab forces were a bunch of wimps never trained to fight against something that resembles an army.

[asim99]

Maybe it was just that the invading arab forces were a bunch of wimps never trained to fight against something that resembles an army.

of course, most of those dictatorships are wimps...anyways, american military aid does get credit as well

[Mr._Hankey]

of course, most of those dictatorships are wimps...anyways, american military aid does get credit as well
Prove it
I want solid evidence for your claim

[asim99]

Prove it
I want solid evidence for your claim

read post #71

[Mr._Hankey]

read post #71
We're talking about the war of independence which started in 1947 and ended in mid 1949. The US assistance came after the war was finished.

[asim99]

We're talking about the war of independence which started in 1947 and ended in mid 1949. The US assistance came after the war was finished.

i was talking about the six day war..
on carving israel out of middle east, that is a whole another beast

[Txiasaeia]

huh...and israel "won" on its own...wow!
may be their god woke up to punish the brute arabs...

US gave 90 million dollars to israel in military loan the year before war (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html) (almost seven times more than the year before)...who are you kidding

I'm not sure I understand what your point is. Israel received a loan from a friendly country. In 1967, Israel received a grant of 7 million dollars, or 13% of what they received the previous year, and they still won the war that year! You think that Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq didn't have a combined military budget of at least 90 million dollars? Come back with *those* numbers and you might have a point.

Again, it was Israel against four other countries and the intelligence of the USSR. A loan from the US came close to making the conflict even, but it was still four countries (and three separate fronts) against one. Financial assistance is a *lot* different than the US getting in there and fighting alongside Israeli troops.

You earlier said that Israel didn't win the war fairly, but it certainly looks like Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq didn't fight the war fairly and still lost.

[asim99]

I'm not sure I understand what your point is. Israel received a loan from a friendly country. In 1967, Israel received a grant of 7 million dollars, or 13% of what they received the previous year, and they still won the war that year! You think that Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq didn't have a combined military budget of at least 90 million dollars? Come back with *those* numbers and you might have a point.

Again, it was Israel against four other countries and the intelligence of the USSR. A loan from the US came close to making the conflict even, but it was still four countries (and three separate fronts) against one. Financial assistance is a *lot* different than the US getting in there and fighting alongside Israeli troops.

You earlier said that Israel didn't win the war fairly, but it certainly looks like Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq didn't fight the war fairly and still lost.

my point is israel didn't stand a chance, if it was not for the military and financial backing of at least united states...
"to make conflict even"...ugh, united states NEVER makes conflicts even

[Txiasaeia]

my point is israel didn't stand a chance, if it was not for the military and financial backing of at least united states

Like anybody could even know that, Napoleon.

[danfromwaterloo]

I don't understand the point of this whole debate.

To debate who belongs where? Israel and Palestine both exist and have the right to do so.

To debate who is to blame? Both sides have blood on their hands.

To debate who is in the right? Why? What is the possible benefit of assigning moral superiority to this discussion, except to attempt to lay blame. What possible good could this do but ensure the continuation of conflict. In addition, even if one side was found to be completely in the moral right, and the other in the moral wrong, they are both guilty of horrendous atrocities. That alone ensures that no side can be morally superior, as the ends cannot justify the horrid means they have taken.

To debate where this is going? I can tell you that already. Both sides are content to sit back and lay blame and hatred on the other side. Both sides use questionable, immoral, or downright illegal tactics to not only ensure their own security and safety, but also an offensive presence, as neither side is content to sit back and do only defensive posturing.

In the end, these conversations are basically meaningless, as it really doesn't shed any new light on this issue. All it serves to illustrate is how polarizing the situation in the Middle East is, and how biased, biggoted, or downright racist the posters are.

[asim99]

Like anybody could even know that, Napoleon.

its not that hard to know

[Txiasaeia]

its not that hard to know

Alright, then list the military budgets of the four Arab nations involved in the war in 1966 so we can compare them to Israel's budget. How many troops each nation had as well (broken down by army & air force) would be nice. (My point is that money alone doesn't win a war, and anybody can make statements like "If they didn't get the money from here, they would have lost" without backing them up. But hey, if you'd like to back up your statement with facts instead of vague assertions, go ahead.)

[asim99]

Alright, then list the military budgets of the four Arab nations involved in the war in 1966 so we can compare them to Israel's budget. How many troops each nation had as well (broken down by army & air force) would be nice. (My point is that money alone doesn't win a war, and anybody can make statements like "If they didn't get the money from here, they would have lost" without backing them up. But hey, if you'd like to back up your statement with facts instead of vague assertions, go ahead.)

money buys equipment...equipment kills
its really not that hard

also -- i did not list budget of israel, simply the amount of military aid it recieved

[Txiasaeia]

money buys equipment...equipment kills
its really not that hard

also -- i did not list budget of israel, simply the amount of military aid it recieved

And how do you know that the four Arab nations combined didn't have a military budget (including foreign loans) of $1 billion? $2 billion? You're waving figures around as if they mean something, but unless you tie them to other practical numbers, the amount of foreign aid from the US is absolutely useless. I see you're still ignoring the fact that four nations failed to defeat one nation that was incorporated twenty years prior; do you really think that Israel won solely because they had $90 million the year before from the US? You don't possibly think that military training or *any* other factor contributede to their victory?

[asim99]

And how do you know that the four Arab nations combined didn't have a military budget (including foreign loans) of $1 billion? $2 billion? You're waving figures around as if they mean something, but unless you tie them to other practical numbers, the amount of foreign aid from the US is absolutely useless. I see you're still ignoring the fact that four nations failed to defeat one nation that was incorporated twenty years prior; do you really think that Israel won solely because they had $90 million the year before from the US? You don't possibly think that military training or *any* other factor contributede to their victory?

i am not sure if any trustworthy budgetary numbers would be available for the arab nations and israel for that period, or any period

the spike in american military aid just the year before conflict is very suspect

[cil254]

The Egyptian airforce was supplied MIGs, training and weapons by the Soviets.
Soviet pilots actually flew some Egyptian MIGs under the Egyptian flag and uniform during the war.

[Txiasaeia]

i am not sure if any trustworthy budgetary numbers would be available for the arab nations and israel for that period, or any period

Then there's no way you can conclusively prove that Israel won the war because of financial aid from the US. I rest my case.

[lip1978]

In 1956:
The United States agreed to give Egypt an unconditional loan of US$56 million, and Britain agreed to lend Egypt US$14. The British loan was contingent on the American loan. The World Bank also agreed to lend Egypt an additional US$200 million. The World Bank loan stipulated that Egypt's budget be supervised by World Bank officials. To Nasser these conditions were insulting and were reminiscent of Europe's control over Egypt's finances in the 1870s.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/egypt2.htm

Egypt refused the loans and took Soviet $ instead. But to claim that Israel won because of US support is not just short-sighted, but probably blind.

[asim99]

what is blind is to assume that a young nation like israel can win a war against four or more nations without any external assistance

[Txiasaeia]

what is blind is to assume that a young nation like israel can win a war against four or more nations without any external assistance

And yet, they did it. You haven't bothered to prove that the US's financial aid made any impact on the war, nor made any comparison between Israel's military funds and those of the Arab aliance. Thus, I think it's rather blind to claim that Israel won the war due to any external assistance. Moreover, the Arab alliance *lost* even with external assistance from the USSR, which I have proven.

So, to sum up: there's no way in the world that Palestine could be considered to have the moral high ground in the conflict, given their use of children suicide bombers and their frequent bombing of civilian targets, and it's obvious that Israel won the war against four opponents because of their military prowess and desire to win rather than your unproven assertion that their victory was due to US assistance.

[asim99]

And yet, they did it. You haven't bothered to prove that the US's financial aid made any impact on the war, nor made any comparison between Israel's military funds and those of the Arab aliance. Thus, I think it's rather blind to claim that Israel won the war due to any external assistance. Moreover, the Arab alliance *lost* even with external assistance from the USSR, which I have proven.

So, to sum up: there's no way in the world that Palestine could be considered to have the moral high ground in the conflict, given their use of children suicide bombers and their frequent bombing of civilian targets, and it's obvious that Israel won the war against four opponents because of their military prowess and desire to win rather than your unproven assertion that their victory was due to US assistance.

not so fast, mister...
israel would not have been the terrorist state that it is now without the approval, encouragement, and assistance of the united states...
and that includes its shenanigans (sp?) during the six-day war

and as to the morality question, lets give the palestinians planes and tank, and see what happens

[danfromwaterloo]

and as to the morality question, lets give the palestinians planes and tank, and see what happens

Other nations Israel has gone to war with have had planes and tanks, for all the good its done them. Lets see...Syria, Lebanon, Egypt...all had similar might. Yet, funny enough, they all got blowed up real good.

[asim99]

Other nations Israel has gone to war with have had planes and tanks, for all the good its done them. Lets see...Syria, Lebanon, Egypt...all had similar might. Yet, funny enough, they all got blowed up real good.

those states are wimps...palestinians are not

[lip1978]

those states are wimps...palestinians are not

Did you actually just post that? wow... *shakes head*

[danfromwaterloo]

those states are wimps...palestinians are not

Wow, I figured you'd be able to post something a little more valid than that one...

*blinks eyes*

Now, are they wimps because they decided to cease conflict and create a peaceful resolution?

Or are they wimps because they got beat by a superior force?

Please define your term here...

[poedua]

not so fast, mister...
israel would not have been the terrorist state that it is now without the approval, encouragement, and assistance of the united states...
and that includes its shenanigans (sp?) during the six-day war

and as to the morality question, lets give the palestinians planes and tank, and see what happens

Do you think Israel has a right to exist ?

[asim99]

Wow, I figured you'd be able to post something a little more valid than that one...
*blinks eyes*
Now, are they wimps because they decided to cease conflict and create a peaceful resolution?
Or are they wimps because they got beat by a superior force?
Please define your term here...

they are wimps because the military infrastructure of these dictatorships is, and has been, more concerned with ensuring the status quo of power grab and oppressing their own citizens, rather than pose some serious military threat to any other nation

[asim99]

Do you think Israel has a right to exist ?

of course

[danfromwaterloo]

they are wimps because the military infrastructure of these dictatorships is, and has been, more concerned with ensuring the status quo of power grab and oppressing their own citizens, rather than pose some serious military threat to any other nation

Oh, ok, so they're wimps because they don't pose a threat to anybody else other than their own citizens...

Did you by chance play on your schools football or water polo teams? That's the last time I heard someone refer to someone or something non-threatening as a wimp.

[Txiasaeia]

not so fast, mister...
israel would not have been the terrorist state that it is now without the approval, encouragement, and assistance of the united states...

Israel is not a "terrorist state," no matter how much you dislike them. They are an officially recognised country by the majority of the world.

and that includes its shenanigans (sp?) during the six-day war

Repeating this statement over and over again doesn't make it true.

and as to the morality question, lets give the palestinians planes and tank, and see what happens

Do you think that a state that uses children as suicide bombers and attacks civilian populations will improve their moral status by using tanks and an air force? Palestine wants to wipe Israel off the face of the planet (genocide), which is by definition an immoral desire. There's no way around this point: from the beginning, Israel wanted to co-exist with its neighbours, whereas Palestine and the surrounding Arab states wanted to completely destroy Israel. There is, and can never be, *any* higher moral ground in genocide, especially if one attempts to destroy one's opponent with child suicide bombers.

[danfromwaterloo]

Do you think that a state that uses children as suicide bombers and attacks civilian populations will improve their moral status by using tanks and an air force? Palestine wants to wipe Israel off the face of the planet (genocide), which is by definition an immoral desire. There's no way around this point: from the beginning, Israel wanted to co-exist with its neighbours, whereas Palestine and the surrounding Arab states wanted to completely destroy Israel. There is, and can never be, *any* higher moral ground in genocide, especially if one attempts to destroy one's opponent with child suicide bombers.

Game. Set. Match. Victory Txxy 6-love 6-love 6-love.

[plymouthhater]

not so fast, mister...
israel would not have been the terrorist state that it is now without the approval, encouragement, and assistance of the united states...
and that includes its shenanigans (sp?) during the six-day war

and as to the morality question, lets give the palestinians planes and tank, and see what happens


So you must honestly believe this famous conversation between the Egyptian President - Nasser and the Jordanian King Hussein made public during June of '67:

The best-known example of Israel's technical ability and advantage during the 1967 War was the capturing of a conversation between Nasser and King Hussein of Jordan on the second day of the war, June 6. At the time most of Nasser's Air Force had been wiped out, but he didn't tell that to King Hussein. Nevertheless, things were not going well for either of them, as can be understood from the conversation:

"Nasser: How are you? The brother (Nasser referring to Hussein) wants to know if the fighting is going on all along the front…Do you know that the US is participating alongside Israel in the war? Should we announce this?…Should we say that the US and Britain (are participating) or only the US? (Nasser later did broadcast that the Americans had taken part in the initial, decisive air assault, in order to explain away the defeat.)

Hussein: The US and England.

Nasser: Does Britain have aircraft carriers?

Hussein: (Unclear)

Nasser: Good. King Hussein will make an announcement and I will make an announcement… we will make sure that the Syrians (also) make an announcement that American and British aircraft are using their aircraft carriers against us…(Meanwhile), our aircraft have been attacking Israel's airfields since this morning."

This conversation was carried out over the public telephone system and was tapped "by two veteran Aman (Military Intelligence) officers using Second World War vintage equipment." Their commanding officer told them "'It's worth millions. Make four copies.'"

Aman Chief Aharon Yariv opposed the publication of the conversation, fearing that it would reveal the extent of Israel's eavesdropping capabilities and thus encourage the Arabs to upgrade their systems. But he was overruled by Defense Minister Moshe Dayan and Prime Minister Levi Eshkol, who believed it would have great political effect; the conversation would show that the Arab leaders would shamelessly lie for their own ends (and to make it appear as if Israel was incapable of such military action on her own), as well as to drive a wedge between Nasser and Hussein. The message made it clear that despite the fact that Nasser was aware of the heavy losses he had suffered at that point, he neglected to inform his ally Hussein.

The publication of the conversation indeed did lead "the Arabs to considerably upgrade their communications security, rendering Aman's electronic eavesdropping much more difficult. One senior intelligence officer said later that the publication cost Israel 60 per cent of its Sigint (Signal Interception) capability in the Arab states.'" On the other hand, the Arabs no longer knew if what they said was being heard or not.

-----------------------

The fact remains in all the wars fought between the Arabs and Israel, the Arabs lost. In 1973 after an initial severe loss, the Israeli's bounced back and had the entire Egyptian 3rd Army surrounded on the West Bank of the Suez Canal. If it wasn't for the intervention of Kissinger, they would have been forced to surrender!

[asim99]

Israel is not a "terrorist state," no matter how much you dislike them. They are an officially recognised country by the majority of the world.
i never denied the existence of israel, and its right to exist...however, that is not to ignore the fact that it is a terrorist state that terrorizes its palestinian subjects

Repeating this statement over and over again doesn't make it true.
your ignoring the obvious does not make it go away

Do you think that a state that uses children as suicide bombers and attacks civilian populations will improve their moral status by using tanks and an air force? Palestine wants to wipe Israel off the face of the planet (genocide), which is by definition an immoral desire. There's no way around this point: from the beginning, Israel wanted to co-exist with its neighbours, whereas Palestine and the surrounding Arab states wanted to completely destroy Israel. There is, and can never be, *any* higher moral ground in genocide, especially if one attempts to destroy one's opponent with child suicide bombers.

i am sure that for every one palestinian that does not want israel to exist, there are a dozen or more who disagree with...what unites them is the terror perpetrated by the state of israel...you are simply blaming the whole nation of palestine for the zealotry of a few

kinda like one blaming the whole group of priests of pedophilia when only a few are responsible for that act

[asim99]

The fact remains in all the wars fought between the Arabs and Israel, the Arabs lost. In 1973 after an initial severe loss, the Israeli's bounced back and had the entire Egyptian 3rd Army surrounded on the West Bank of the Suez Canal. If it wasn't for the intervention of Kissinger, they would have been forced to surrender!

i didn't say that israel did not win..i am only saying that it could not have won without the support of the united states

as for the intervention of kissinger, i am sure that war-criminal creep never had any love lost for arabs...he must've intervened after ensuring that arabs were defeated just enough

[Txiasaeia]

i never denied the existence of israel, and its right to exist...however, that is not to ignore the fact that it is a terrorist state that terrorizes its palestinian subjects

I don't suppose you realise how ironic your use of "terrorist state" in connexion with Israel is, hmm? Israel does not use suicide bombers against civilian targets, which is the very definition of a terrorist attack. Now, what country in the region uses suicide bombers? I'll give you three guesses...

your ignoring the obvious does not make it go away

You haven't proven anything, by any stretch of the imagination. You're refusing to debate; rather, you're using the same phrase over and over again in the vain attempt to make it sound like the statement has been proven. It hasn't. You can't prove that the US's aid to Israel caused Israel to win the war. Until you do, saying over and over again that "Israel wouldn't have won without US aid" sounds shrill and laughable.

i am sure that for every one palestinian that does not want israel to exist, there are a dozen or more who disagree with...what unites them is the terror perpetrated by the state of israel...you are simply blaming the whole nation of palestine for the zealotry of a few

Let's pretend for a minute that the Palestinian government does not support Hamas. Why haven't they quashed the movement? Why are there still terrorist bombings in the region? Why are children still being strapped with explosives and sent towards civilian targets?

It's much easier to believe that the Palestinian government's constant refusal to disarm and neutralise Hamas is because the Palestinian government supports Hamas' methods rather than the Palestinian government is unable to do anything about the situation. Let's be frank here - I haven't heard of a single Palestinian leader saying that they want to live in peace with Israel. Palestine is supposedly a democratic country; if Palestinians really want to live in peace, why haven't they elected a government that is ready and willing to be equal partners in peace with Israel?

kinda like one blaming the whole group of priests of pedophilia when only a few are responsible for that act

Or kinda like attacking Islam as a whole because some of them practice female genital mutilation, or because some Muslims require that an unmarried woman marry her rapist. Do you have a point with your example, or are you trying to poison the conversation because you don't like where it's going?

[Txiasaeia]

i didn't say that israel did not win..i am only saying that it could not have won without the support of the united states

Prove it.

[asim99]

I don't suppose you realise how ironic your use of "terrorist state" in connexion with Israel is, hmm? Israel does not use suicide bombers against civilian targets, which is the very definition of a terrorist attack. Now, what country in the region uses suicide bombers? I'll give you three guesses...
you act quite naive here (i only hope it is an act)...terrorism is not just suicide bombing, terrorism is also bulldozing and bombing innocent civilians...and since israel does engage in later, it IS a terrorist state (http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp)

You haven't proven anything, by any stretch of the imagination. You're refusing to debate; rather, you're using the same phrase over and over again in the vain attempt to make it sound like the statement has been proven. It hasn't. You can't prove that the US's aid to Israel caused Israel to win the war. Until you do, saying over and over again that "Israel wouldn't have won without US aid" sounds shrill and laughable.
sorry dude...while you may expect me to post pictures of americans and israelis jointly contemplating war plans, sitting on a pile of american dollars, atop an american tank, it is not gonna happen...they've just been camera shy

Let's pretend for a minute that the Palestinian government does not support Hamas. Why haven't they quashed the movement? Why are there still terrorist bombings in the region? Why are children still being strapped with explosives and sent towards civilian targets?

It's much easier to believe that the Palestinian government's constant refusal to disarm and neutralise Hamas is because the Palestinian government supports Hamas' methods rather than the Palestinian government is unable to do anything about the situation. Let's be frank here - I haven't heard of a single Palestinian leader saying that they want to live in peace with Israel. Palestine is supposedly a democratic country; if Palestinians really want to live in peace, why haven't they elected a government that is ready and willing to be equal partners in peace with Israel?
another example of naive approach to the issue...palestinians have suffered for decades, and you expect that a sudden introduction of "democracy" is enough to make them forget that their oppressor continues to oppress not just them but their elected government and its police force

Or kinda like attacking Islam as a whole because some of them practice female genital mutilation, or because some Muslims require that an unmarried woman marry her rapist. Do you have a point with your example, or are you trying to poison the conversation because you don't like where it's going?
nah, i was not poisoning anything...i was simply pointing out the ridiculousness of your generalization that palestinians do not want israel to exist, based on the action of a few zealots...i am sure you got my point

[lip1978]

Ok Asim, so if I understand your point of view, you're for war when Palestinians attack Israelis, but cry terrorism when Israelis fight back. I guess Israel should just sit there and allow its citizens to be picked off.

[Txiasaeia]

you act quite naive here (i only hope it is an act)...terrorism is not just suicide bombing, terrorism is also bulldozing and bombing innocent civilians...and since israel does engage in later, it IS a terrorist state (http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp)

Your link refers to casualties of war, a war which Palestine doesn't want to end. In wars, people get killed. Your link doesn't prove that Israel is a terrorist state by any stretch of the imagination. Interesting how Palestinians killed more civilians than military targets, though, which definitely goes a long way to show that Palestine is a terrorist state, however.

sorry dude...while you may expect me to post pictures of americans and israelis jointly contemplating war plans, sitting on a pile of american dollars, atop an american tank, it is not gonna happen...they've just been camera shy

Good, so you can't prove that the US's financial aid directly enabled Israel to win the war. About time you admitted it!

another example of naive approach to the issue...palestinians have suffered for decades, and you expect that a sudden introduction of "democracy" is enough to make them forget that their oppressor continues to oppress not just them but their elected government and its police force

Rubbish! Palestinians have suffered for decades because they refuse to entertain the notion of peace with Israel! In 48, when Israel declared independence, they stated that they wanted to live in peace with their neighbours; you can see how far that's got them over the past fifty years.

nah, i was not poisoning anything...i was simply pointing out the ridiculousness of your generalization that palestinian do not want israel to exist based on the action of a few zealots...i am sure you got my point

The church has fired priests who have acted "improperly" (understatement) towards children. What has the Palestinian government done about Hamas?

[Txiasaeia]

Ok Asim, so if I understand your point of view, you're for war when Palestinians attack Israelis, but cry terrorism when Israelis fight back. I guess Israel should just sit there and allow its citizens to be picked off.

No kidding! I don't see Palestine contributing to the peace process at all, but Israel is still a "terrorist state" even when it attempts to defuse the tensions in the region.

[asim99]

Ok Asim, so if I understand your point of view, you're for war when Palestinians attack Israelis, but cry terrorism when Israelis fight back. I guess Israel should just sit there and allow its citizens to be picked off.

if israel stops terrorizing its palestinian citizens living in gaza and west bank and jerusalem, i will be happy to change my position

[asim99]

No kidding! I don't see Palestine contributing to the peace process at all, but Israel is still a "terrorist state" even when it attempts to defuse the tensions in the region.

how is it "attempting" to do that? by building more settlements in the west bank?

[poedua]

you act quite naive here (i only hope it is an act)...terrorism is not just suicide bombing, terrorism is also bulldozing and bombing innocent civilians...and since israel does engage in later, it IS a terrorist state (http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp)



Japan, Germany, Britian, Canada, and the the U.S. have all specifically targeted civilians during war - as you allege Israel has - would you consider them terrorist states as well ?

Or is it that since there is no formal declaration of war existing between Israel and Palestine, all aggressions / killings from both sides need to be called terrorism and asa result. are not bound by the rules of wearfare as spelled out in the Geneva Convention ?

[asim99]

Your link refers to casualties of war, a war which Palestine doesn't want to end. In wars, people get killed. Your link doesn't prove that Israel is a terrorist state by any stretch of the imagination. Interesting how Palestinians killed more civilians than military targets, though, which definitely goes a long way to show that Palestine is a terrorist state, however.
3000-plus palestinians killed by israeli security forces, 41 killed by israeli civilians, 678 palestinian minors killed by israeli security forces....surely you are not saying that they deserved to die just because, or "tough luck"

Good, so you can't prove that the US's financial aid directly enabled Israel to win the war. About time you admitted it!
sorry, it does not work like that

Rubbish! Palestinians have suffered for decades because they refuse to entertain the notion of peace with Israel! In 48, when Israel declared independence, they stated that they wanted to live in peace with their neighbours; you can see how far that's got them over the past fifty years.
i suppose you mean palestinians should have trusted and negotiated with a country founded by terrorists (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/King-David-Hotel-bombing)

The church has fired priests who have acted "improperly" (understatement) towards children. What has the Palestinian government done about Hamas?
last i heard, cardinal bernard law, a protector of child molesting priests, was being considered for the position of pope (http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0505401.htm)

[asim99]

Japan, Germany, Britian, Canada, and the the U.S. have all specifically targeted civilians during war - as you allege Israel has - would you consider them terrorist states as well ?

Or is it that since there is no formal declaration of war existing between Israel and Palestine, all aggressions / killings from both sides need to be called terrorism and asa result. are not bound by the rules of wearfare as spelled out in the Geneva Convention ?

call it what you will...i just feel disgusted when i see palestinians blamed for every freaking thing while israel gets a pat on the back, from people of influence

i am all for well-balanced reporting of the problem, but seeing so many apologists of israel makes me sympathize with the palestinians

[Txiasaeia]

3000-plus palestinians killed by israeli security forces, 41 killed by israeli civilians, 678 palestinian minors killed by israeli security forces....surely you are not saying that they deserved to die just because, or "tough luck"

Your link refers to casualties of war, a war which Palestine doesn't want to end. In wars, people get killed. Your link doesn't prove that Israel is a terrorist state by any stretch of the imagination. Interesting how Palestinians killed more civilians than military targets, though, which definitely goes a long way to show that Palestine is a terrorist state, however. (Since you didn't bother to read what I said the first time...)

sorry, it does not work like that

You mean that you're still standing behind your unproven assertion? Either prove your statement or say you can't; don't just sit there waffling around and wasting everybody's time.

i suppose you mean palestinians should have trusted and negotiated with a country founded by terrorists (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/King-David-Hotel-bombing)

The King David Hotel bombing was a legitimate attack on a military target: " "The hotel was the base for the British Secretariat, the military command and a branch of the Criminal Investigation Division (police)."

last i heard, cardinal bernard law, a protector of child molesting priests, was being considered for the position of pope (http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0505401.htm)

Um, you do realise that Cardinal Law resigned in 2002, right? One vote by an errant Cardinal doesn't equal "being considered for the position of pope."

You didn't answer my question: what's the Palestinian government doing to stop Hamas?

You know, you can sit there all night and try to distract people from the fact that you're pulling facts out of mid-air, but I think that you're not giving people here enough credit. Got anything new, or are you going to continue to recycle some more half-baked assertions and unproven claims all night?

[Txiasaeia]

call it what you will...i just feel disgusted when i see palestinians blamed for every freaking thing while israel gets a pat on the back, from people of influence

i am all for well-balanced reporting of the problem, but seeing so many apologists of israel makes me sympathize with the palestinians

So you'd rather fight for the underdog, no matter how much in the moral wrong they are? Israel's defending its civilian population from suicide bombers. Do you honestly expect them to sit back and allow their *citizens* (not soldiers, civilians) to be killed, maimed, and dismembered by such cowardly attacks? Israel has a right to protect its citizens. If Palestine stopped using suicide attacks, I can guarantee you that I, and many others, would reconsider the entire situation.

[asim99]

Your link refers to casualties of war, a war which Palestine doesn't want to end. In wars, people get killed. Your link doesn't prove that Israel is a terrorist state by any stretch of the imagination. Interesting how Palestinians killed more civilians than military targets, though, which definitely goes a long way to show that Palestine is a terrorist state, however. (Since you didn't bother to read what I said the first time...)
i read it before and i read it now..."people get killed"...BS...that is the best you could come up with
israel is a terrorist state because it targets palestinian nation with ruthlessness and disgust by killing innocent people and labelling them as collateral, and apologists of that terrorist state accept that for a fact without questioning....

You mean that you're still standing behind your unproven assertion? Either prove your statement or say you can't; don't just sit there waffling around and wasting everybody's time.
a tiny and new-born state like israel could never perpetrate the terror it did, and does, without the financial and (im)moral support of the united states

The King David Hotel bombing was a legitimate attack on a military target: " "The hotel was the base for the British Secretariat, the military command and a branch of the Criminal Investigation Division (police)."

91 people were killed, most of them civilians

Um, you do realise that Cardinal Law resigned in 2002, right? One vote by an errant Cardinal doesn't equal "being considered for the position of pope."
BS again...the disgraced cardinal is very much active in the church, and even one vote for such a shameful character is more than what dozens of other cardinals did not get

You didn't answer my question: what's the Palestinian government doing to stop Hamas?
i am sure the palestinian government will do everything to calm its citizens if the freaking terorirst state of israel stops intervening in its everyday operations

You know, you can sit there all night and try to distract people from the fact that you're pulling facts out of mid-air, but I think that you're not giving people here enough credit. Got anything new, or are you going to continue to recycle some more half-baked assertions and unproven claims all night?
oh now the apologists for the occupation of israel need credit...talk about chutzpah!

[asim99]

So you'd rather fight for the underdog, no matter how much in the moral wrong they are? Israel's defending its civilian population from suicide bombers. Do you honestly expect them to sit back and allow their *citizens* (not soldiers, civilians) to be killed, maimed, and dismembered by such cowardly attacks? Israel has a right to protect its citizens. If Palestine stopped using suicide attacks, I can guarantee you that I, and many others, would reconsider the entire situation.
israel is "protecting its civilian population" by killing morethan 3-4 times palestinian civilians and bulldozing their homes, and killing their children...some protection....

in the pre-1993 era when suicide bombings were almost rare, and palestinians defended themselves by throwing freaking rocks on israeli tanks, israel was protecting itself pretty much the same way it does now...by targetting, maiming, injuring, and killing palestinian civilians

[Txiasaeia]

i read it before and i read it now..."people get killed"...BS...that is the best you could come up with
israel is a terrorist state because it targets palestinian nation with ruthlessness and disgust by killing innocent people and labelling them as collateral, and apologists of that terrorist state accept that for a fact without questioning....

Israelis kill Palestinians. Palestinians kill Israelis. In fact, Palestinian suicide bombers target large groups of innocent people and label them as collateral. Seems to me that you're accepting this without questioning it too.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that Israel could crush Palestine at any given moment without so much as lifting a finger. Why haven't they done that, especially since Palestinians seem intent on destroying Israel? Perhaps because Israel truly wants to live in peace in the region? Of course, they're not going to let Palestinian terrorists run amok with rocket launcers and suicide bombs, which is why they try to assassinate suspected terrorist - to protect their own citizens. Like it or not, this is war, and that's what people do in war - they kill each other.

a tiny and new-born state like israel could never perpetrate the terror it did, and does, without the financial and (im)moral support of the united states

You have no proof of this. I'd be happy to discuss it if you could make a logical and coherent argument that supports your claim, but not if you continue to pull "facts" from the air.

91 people were killed, most of them civilians

Civilian casualties or not, it was still a military target.

BS again...the disgraced cardinal is very much active in the church, and even one vote for such a shameful character is more than what dozens of other cardinals did not get

Again, *one* vote (when more than 70, I believe, is required) means absolutely nothing; kinda like somebody voting for the green party in Canada.

i am sure the palestinian will do everything to calm its citizens if the freaking terorirst state of israel stops intervening in its everyday operations

*Snort* I'll believe it when I see it. Israel's withdrawn from some of the disputed land; what has Palestine done lately to help with the peace process (aside from rocket attacks against Israeli forces, of course)?

oh now the apologists for the occupation of israel need credit...talk about chutzpah!

I was talking about the members on RFD who you're half-heartedly attempting to convince.

[danfromwaterloo]

i read it before and i read it now..."people get killed"...BS...that is the best you could come up with
israel is a terrorist state because it targets palestinian nation with ruthlessness and disgust by killing innocent people and labelling them as collateral, and apologists of that terrorist state accept that for a fact without questioning....

When Palestinian militants decide to use civilians as cover, what other alternatives are there to Israeli security forces? They extricate the terrorists as efficiently as they can. Note the difference: the Israelis are targeting the terrorist leaders and their footmen. The Palestinians are targeting civilians. Big difference.

a tiny and new-born state like israel could never perpetrate the terror it did, and does, without the financial and (im)moral support of the united states

"Perpetuate the terror" - this terror being the attacks on militants? That's not terror, that's defense. I and others like me would gladly change our opinions on the Palestinians if they targetted military-only targets. But they don't.

91 people were killed, most of them civilians

But the target was military. The point of the exercise was to attack the state, and not the civilians.

BS again...the disgraced cardinal is very much active in the church, and even one vote for such a shameful character is more than what dozens of other cardinals did not get

Remember that ANYBODY can run for the Papacy, so long as they're Catholic. It's not limited to Cardinals. Anyways, what the hell does the Catholic church have to do with Palestinians?

i am sure the palestinian government will do everything to calm its citizens if the freaking terorirst state of israel stops intervening in its everyday operations

When the PLO is obviously incapable or unwilling to stop Hamas and Islamic Jihad from attacking Israel, Israel must step in to protect it's citizens.

israel is "protecting its civilian population" by killing morethan 3-4 times palestinian civilians and bulldozing their homes, and killing their children...some protection....

Please clarify this - killing more than 3-4 times palestinian civilians. Do you mean they've killed 3-4 times more civilians than militants? And if so, where did you get these numbers from?

in the pre-1993 era when suicide bombings were almost rare, and palestinians defended themselves by throwing freaking rocks on israeli tanks, israel was protecting itself pretty much the same way it does now...by targetting, maiming, injuring, and killing palestinian civilians

Ok, lets look at this rationally. Lets say I am in a protest at Queen's Park, and there's a bunch of cops there. I pick up a rock and whip it at one. What would you have the officer do? I for one would probably get shot!

Israel uses rubber bullets and bean bag guns to try and quell any such stupidity, without killing anybody. Unfortunately, the Palestinians don't quite understand this.

[poedua]

israel is "protecting its civilian population" by killing morethan 3-4 times palestinian civilians and bulldozing their homes, and killing their children...some protection....

in the pre-1993 era when suicide bombings were almost rare, and palestinians defended themselves by throwing freaking rocks on israeli tanks, israel was protecting itself pretty much the same way it does now...by targetting, maiming, injuring, and killing palestinian civilians

But, to be fair, even before the 1967 ' occupation ' there were more lethal methods than just rocks being used..and there were also some deadly attacks pre 1993 that you could argue were more than just ' defensive 'actions

Jan 1, 1965 - Palestinian terrorists attempted to bomb the National Water Carrier - the first attack carried out by the PLO's Fatah faction.

July 5, 1965 - Mitzpe Massua
A Fatah cell planted explosives near Beit Guvrin, and on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem near Kfar Battir.

May 16, 1966 - Northern Galilee region | 2 Israelis killed when their jeep hit a terrorist landmine. Tracks led into Syria.

Jul 13, 1966 - Almagor
2 soldiers and 1 civilian killed when their truck struck a terrorist landmine.

Feb 4 1990 - Palestinian Islamic Jihad terrorists attacked an Israeli tour bus en route from Rafah to Cairo, killing 11 persons - including 9 Israeli citizens - and wounding 17 others.

March 17 1992 -A car bomb demolished the Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires. Among the dead were four Israelis embassy personnel, four local embassy employees, as well as several residents of a nearby nursing home, and schoolchildren on a passing bus. Islamic Jihad, a cover name for Hizballah, publicly claimed responsibility for the attack and provided a videotape of the embassy taken before the bombing to authenticate the claim.


Just a different perspective