ATTN Canada: Will Martin offer any aid to the USA in regards to Katrina?

[neilson]

Canadians, I ask of you to e-mail Paul Martin, your MPs and your charitable organizations, and ask what if anything will be sent to New Orleans and Mississippi to help the crisis.

I think people like me just need to wait (& of course donate to the Red Cross) for this to clear up - b/c I admit I'm no longer viewing this as some fascinating disaster movie. This is feeling too real & personal, being that New Orleans is one of my favorite cities.

Besides the tsunami of last year & 9/11 - I haven't felt this personally affected & disturbed by what I'm hearing / seeing since. I simply can not stomach the idea of discussing 'number of deaths' or anything regarding the obvious economic impact.

So - talk all you want, I'm going to do what I can to prevent the worst:
http://www.redcross.org/

And, I sincerely hope and pray that the world response to this disaster will be swift and prompt. Money is fine, but we want and need manpower. Canada, Europe, Asia; we've been there for you. Just this once, bring that same sense of unity after the tsunumi to these ppl.

[asim99]

may be you should write to bush asking him to stop spending billions on wars, and help the poor ones at home instead....might suit him to take a lesson in basic human decency

[15-20_God]

instead of sending the reserves to Iraq to help "rebuild", maybe he should send the reserves to New Orleans to help clear that mess up.

Oh wait, that mess was caused by nature so lets let a 3rd party agency fix that. And first things first, lets untap the strategic oil reserves, humans can wait.

[neilson]

Damnit; you people and politics.

I don't give a **** about Iraq or softwood or anything. Even gas prices; I'LL PAY OUT MY ASS OK!!!!!!!!!!!! Politics mean dick to me right now.

THis is a refugee crisis, the likes of which the USA has never seen.

IF you want to look at this from a political perspective rather then a Human Crisis, FINE.

I honestly expected more from Canadians of all people.

[aquariaguy]

New Orleans isn't important to Bush. Only the oil rigs offshore are.

[puff_daddy_58_99]

a) this is certainly not a refugee crisis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee
"A refugee is a person seeking refuge (or asylum) in another country in order to escape persecution. "

b) The USA has 10X the manpower, 10X the resources, and 10X the money to repair and rebuild. The canadian government should help in any way they can, but I highly doubt that there is anything we can do, that they aren't already doing.

In that instance, I would almost consider it a slap in the face to offer 'assistance' to the americans.

[neilson]

You guys; .................................................. ..................................


I am honestly pissed beyond comprehension by the reactions on here.

You guys don't like Bush. Fine. We've gotten the picture over the past 5 years.

New Orleans is about to become unsustainable for human life for the short term; the Superdome is trapped around water; and all you want to do is "HATE BUSH".

HATE BUSH, HATE BUSH; You guys are evil.

[Rometiklan]

Watching it on the news, I am just awestruck by the pounding New Orleans has taken, and had Katrina not relented slightly, it could have been much much worse.

I have no problems with Canada helping the americans out. That is, if they ask for our help. If the most powerful country in the world asks for humanitarian aid, I would question how thinly they have spread their resources around.

[15-20_God]

Damnit; you people and politics.

I don't give a **** about Iraq or softwood or anything. Even gas prices; I'LL PAY OUT MY ASS OK!!!!!!!!!!!! Politics mean dick to me right now.

THis is a refugee crisis, the likes of which the USA has never seen.

IF you want to look at this from a political perspective rather then a Human Crisis, FINE.

I honestly expected more from Canadians of all people.

wow, almost 80 people are dead. hardly a refugee crisis.
honestly, many canadians expected no less from the americans.

[Rometiklan]

instead of sending the reserves to Iraq to help "rebuild", maybe he should send the reserves to New Orleans to help clear that mess up.

Oh wait, that mess was caused by nature so lets let a 3rd party agency fix that. And first things first, lets untap the strategic oil reserves, humans can wait.

Oh man, that's gold. :D

[asim99]

halliburton alone can fund the entire reconstruction of the affected areas

[15-20_God]

I am honestly pissed beyond comprehension by the reactions on here.

You guys don't like Bush. Fine. We've gotten the picture over the past 5 years.

New Orleans is about to become unsustainable for human life for the short term; the Superdome is trapped around water; and all you want to do is "HATE BUSH".

HATE BUSH, HATE BUSH; You guys are evil.

since your so spiteful that the canadians haven't jumped in to offer help, what has bush done so far in terms of help other than offering to release additional oil from the reserves?

[Ojam]

We should offer some sort of help, I'm not sure what we can do that you can't do yourself, but I think we should offer assistance, if it's not needed, fine, if it is, then we shouldn't slam them for it.

[neilson]

What part of 1 Million ppl displaced and for all intents and purposes homeless do you not understand?

What part of 15 -30,000 dead when it's all said and done don't you understand?

80 alone in ONE Mississippi County are dead.

Louisiana can't report because a lot of the areas just can't be reached.

PPL ARE SEEING BODIES FLOATING DOWN THE STREETS OF NEIGHBORHOODS.

The French Quarter and the CBD are now seeing rising water thanks to the levees breaking.

I just find it selfish of you guys to not put aside politics at this critical moment.

We didn't find out the true death toll from the tsumani until several weeks later.

I fear, the same will be true of New Orleans and Southern Mississippi.

[sportsfan99]

Canadians, I ask of you to e-mail Paul Martin, your MPs and your charitable organizations, and ask what if anything will be sent to New Orleans and Mississippi to help the crisis.

I think people like me just need to wait (& of course donate to the Red Cross) for this to clear up - b/c I admit I'm no longer viewing this as some fascinating disaster movie. This is feeling too real & personal, being that New Orleans is one of my favorite cities.

Besides the tsunami of last year & 9/11 - I haven't felt this personally affected & disturbed by what I'm hearing / seeing since. I simply can not stomach the idea of discussing 'number of deaths' or anything regarding the obvious economic impact.

So - talk all you want, I'm going to do what I can to prevent the worst:
http://www.redcross.org/

And, I sincerely hope and pray that the world response to this disaster will be swift and prompt. Money is fine, but we want and need manpower. Canada, Europe, Asia; we've been there for you. Just this once, bring that same sense of unity after the tsunumi to these ppl.

This is not as bad as the tsunami i gave to that i will not give to this for many reasons.The main one is i was a vic of the ice storm and the states did do not one thing so why should i help them.

[TYinYVR]

Hearing people on the Cable News networks, Fox News, CNN, and MSNBC, asking if other people around the world would help them after "They helped every one in South East Asia." You would think they were the "ONLY" people that sent help for the tsunumi. Americans have to realize that they are just one country in the world. They are not the "BEST" on #1 place in the world. Each and every place on this world is great in it own way. But I think Canada will send help. But will we get a "thank you". Fat chance, just more dutys on our soft wood lumber :) My heart goes out to all the people down there just like everyone that were in the tsunumi.

[puff_daddy_58_99]

neilson, calm down dude. The US has all they need to rebuild the place, and the damage isn't as bad as you are saying.

30 thousand dead? Come on, stop making up this crap.

[Rometiklan]

What part of 1 Million ppl displaced and for all intents and purposes homeless do you not understand?

What part of 15 -30,000 dead when it's all said and done don't you understand?

80 alone in ONE Mississippi County are dead.

Louisiana can't report because a lot of the areas just can't be reached.

PPL ARE SEEING BODIES FLOATING DOWN THE STREETS OF NEIGHBORHOODS.

The French Quarter and the CBD are now seeing rising water thanks to the levees breaking.

I just find it selfish of you guys to not put aside politics at this critical moment.

We didn't find out the true death toll from the tsumani until several weeks later.

I fear, the same will be true of New Orleans and Southern Mississippi.

It's tragic, without question. The true tragedy of the situation will not be known for a long time. But you are assuming the american want or need our help. Have they asked? You don't know that. If they did ask, don't you have any questions about why the most powerful country in the world would have their hand out when they should have resources up the whazoo to take care of their own, and mop up that mess on their own? As I said, I have no problem assisting the americans as long as they ask.

[gorf]

I think alot of organizations like Red Cross and Salvation Army will help out alot. As to whether govt. outside of the US will is another question.

A local radio station cancelled a promotion and is giving the money instead to this crisis via Salvation Army. I think Canada will help in some shape or form, not only in money donations but in cleanup efforts and that sort of thing.

[neilson]

What is wrong with a goodwill gesture?

[15-20_God]

What part of 1 Million ppl displaced and for all intents and purposes homeless do you not understand?

What part of 15 -30,000 dead when it's all said and done don't you understand?

80 alone in ONE Mississippi County are dead.

Louisiana can't report because a lot of the areas just can't be reached.

We didn't find out the true death toll from the tsumani until several weeks later.

Where are you making up these figures from?
tsunami? what tsunami? i think you're confused.

I think the real matter is that Bush made his friend gawd mad and he's being punished right now. Why else would it happen in the south near the oil rigs?

[puff_daddy_58_99]

what goodwill gesture? fly down some tim hortons donuts to feel them? Send some toques to keep them warm?

If they needed help, they would ask. They have more resources than we ever will, they certainly don't need aid from us. Support yes, but not handouts.

[15-20_God]

What is wrong with a goodwill gesture?

we'll send you some wood to build shelter and some beef to feed the homeless. how's that for goodwill?

[15-20_God]

It's tragic, without question.

the tragic part is ppl were warned and asked to leave...but decided to stay.

[Shaner]

The Americans do not need help from anyone, especially not from Canada. They have the money to rebuild half ot the country, and they would still have money left over to spend on other things.
They are by far the richest country in the world, they don't need assistance of any kind, except for maybe blood donations.

Besides, there hasn't even been 100 people reported dead yet. Where the hell did you come up with 30,000 dead? Go spread our propoganda elsewhere, because you're talking crap.

Americans screw over Canada time and time again and they wouldn't feel the least bit sorry for us if something horrible were to happen.
Where we the Americans when the ice storm hit? They were nowhere to be found.
What about when we helped them after 9/11? George Bush later thanked every country who helped out, EXCEPT Canada. He forgot to thank Canada for the help that we gave. He later went onto say that he didn't forget about Canada, he simply thought it went without saying because we're neighbours.
If we helped with this, do you really think we would even get a thank you? Not a chance.

To hell with the US.

[gorf]

we'll send you some wood to build shelter and some beef to feed the homeless. how's that for goodwill?

Don't forget oil to heat the shelter. lol! Oops spoken for already, its going to NG. ;)

[JimG]

I think Canada should offer assistance, maybe in the form of search and rescue equipment or personnel. There's really not much else we can do. The US is in a good position to handle this themselves. Millions of people are displaced, are we supposed to fly them up here and give them a bed?

Jim

[sportsfan99]

What is wrong with a goodwill gesture?

You don't really seem to understand or are making it much worse then it is.You don't give untill it is said that yes we need help.The us red cross has contacted canadian red cross about man power only not money.The states is not poor unlike so many other places.It could be seen as a slap in the face if canada gave a ton of money.Now yes it is bad but not as bad as you think.

[neilson]

It's one thing to offer and for us to say "We appreciate the offer, but we'll be fine thanks", and another to just not ask at all.

[afong56]

it is called karma. you can't go running around flaming people and generally being a nuisance on this board and expect people to suddenly treat you with respect when you've disrespected our government, our country, and our society in general, time and time again.

privately, many of us will donate time and money to the relief efforts.

publicly, on this board, many of those same people are going to give you a real hard time. why? because they know they will get a reaction from you, and perhaps, karma.

trust me, the canadian government will offer both services and funds if the u.s. needs it, so stop worrying about whether paul martin will come to the aid of the american people. i will note here that if a country like india would refuse any aid for their tsunami crisis, perhaps the u.s. is capable of handling this one on their own.

just curious, since you are whinging about what canadians should be doing, why don't you share with the board the length and breadth of what you are doing in this time of need? please elaborate in detail. . .

[neilson]

And you wonder why we don't want to say thanks if you guys are always so jaded and angry at us. You're like the cranky neighbor that even when tragedy strikes, you still find reason to be angry.

I don't care about politics right now; I care about the ppl.

And, will you guys understand this?

The True Death Toll won't be known for a long time; and it will rise to a very high number.

[sportsfan99]

It's one thing to offer and for us to say "We appreciate the offer, but we'll be fine thanks", and another to just not ask at all.

If you want to help give to some local group in canada you should help your own first.

[neilson]

it is called karma. you can't go running around flaming people and generally being a nuisance on this board and expect people to suddenly treat you with respect when you've disrespected our government, our country, and our society in general, time and time again.

privately, many of us will donate time and money to the relief efforts.

publicly, on this board, many of those same people are going to give you a real hard time. why? because they know they will get a reaction from you, and perhaps, karma.

trust me, the canadian government will offer both services and funds if the u.s. needs it, so stop worrying about whether paul martin will come to the aid of the american people. i will note here that if a country like india would refuse any aid for their tsunami crisis, perhaps the u.s. is capable of handling this one on their own.

just curious, since you are whinging about what canadians should be doing, why don't you share with the board the length and breadth of what you are doing in this time of need? please elaborate in detail. . .


I'm going to the Red Cross, just as I did after Ivan last year; and will donate my blood, and donate $20. I'm student that doesn't have much, but what I can spare I shall give. $20 right now, and a dollar here and there where I see Salvation Army or Goodwill asking for $. I may donate some clothing as well, hopefully it'll be something for the ppl.

[Suresh]

Wow....thread gone bad.

I would be more than happy to help to any human living in the affected cities. Politics have no place in such situations. We can both sit and debate foreign policy till we're bleeding from the ass, this is a separate issue

[sportsfan99]

Why don't you give to some one who really needs it.India etc where they really need the help.

[neilson]

Wow....thread gone bad.

I would be more than happy to help to any human living in the affected cities. Politics have no place in such situations. We can both sit and debate foreign policy till we're bleeding from the ass, this is a separate issue

THANK YOU SURESH.

Have your own private opinions ppl; but be willing to toss it aside in this time of need. I know I have.

[TinyTank]

for the third time...why are u a member of a canadian forum?.

[neilson]

NowPublic.com is providing a public service for those affected by Hurricane Katrina. We have set up a website that lets people send in photographs of those who go missing during the storm. We are asking others to contribute by posting a link to tool on their sites. Your assistance in this effort is greatly appreciated.

The Link to the site is here:

http://www.nowpublic.com/user/2173

Yrs,Calder LorenzDirector of Contributor Relations @ NowPublicMy Email:clorenz@nowpublic.comMy Blog: http://www.nowpublic.com/blog/1757

If you would like to put up a description of the tool, you can use (and modify) the following:

____________________________________

NowPublic has set up a missing persons board to help victims of Hurricane Katrina find those who go missing during the storm.

If you want to publish the photograph of someone you are looking for you can upload it to the site by clicking here or by sending an email to:news@nowpublic.com.

If you include 'NP 17228' in the body of the email then your email will be automatically posted with other photographs. If you have any information about any of the photographs posted here contact the owner of the footage by rolling over photograph or video and following the instructions that are provided.

You can also post a comment about individual photographs (or videos) by clicking on the image and posting a comment (adding a report) on the page that comes up.

If you have any questions please contact us at clorenz@nowpublic.com.

[najibs]

I also agree with the people here saying that instead of spending billions in Iraq, Mr. Bush should concentrate on helping his own people first.

Look at this...Bush is cutting his vacation short by TWO whole days to "help" LOL. The guy's been on vacation for weeks already. He's always at his damn ranch instead of the white house, where he's supposed to be doing his damn job. http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/30/bush.hurricane.ap/index.html

George Bush is a joke of a President. He doesn't give a crap about New Orleans...We've helped the US enough, and yet they still dont do ***** for Canada...

[neilson]

for the third time...why are u a member of a canadian forum?.

Because I'm an American that chose to not be ignorant to your nation. For better or for worse, I can talk current events with Canadians and not look like a fool for knowing my facts.

My opinions on the otherhand; well let's just say I've clashed on a number of occasions with ppl on here for my minority view.

[TinyTank]

I also agree with the people here saying that instead of spending billions in Iraq, Mr. Bush should concentrate on helping his own people first.

Look at this...Bush is cutting his vacation short by TWO whole days to "help" LOL. The guy's been on vacation for weeks already. He's always at his damn ranch instead of the white house, where he's supposed to be doing his damn job. http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/30/bush.hurricane.ap/index.html

George Bush is a joke of a President. He doesn't give a crap about New Orleans...

totally agree with u. If canada and canadians are to donate any money...i hope it would not be to the US.

[TinyTank]

Because I'm an American that chose to not be ignorant to your nation. For better or for worse, I can talk current events with Canadians and not look like a fool for knowing my facts.

My opinions on the otherhand; well let's just say I've clashed on a number of occasions with ppl on here for my minority view.

do u live in canada?

[dealforme]

Remember people no personal attacks.

Back to the subject.

I can see Canadians offer some sort of support, we supported our neighbour in 9/11 and we'll do it here as well.

[TinyTank]

Remember people no personal attacks.

Back to the subject.

I can see Canadians offer some sort of support, we supported our neighbour in 9/11 and we'll do it here as well.

hopefully not financially. I would support sending a disaster team.

[Shaner]

If a person were to go around terrorizing everyone else in a small town, do you really think all those people would be quick to help that one person if he required help. Of course not. The US has made their own bed and now they have to lie in it. I hate the US and I hate people like you who think the US deserves everything and isn't required to do anything in return.

Why is it that Canada gets along great with the rest of the world, yet we're constantly bickering with the US? Why is it that almost every country in the world hates the US? Have you seen a pattern develop yet? The US has pissed off the entire world, so why should the entire world come to their aid?

[Shaner]

Neilson - Answer this question for me. If you can provide me with a good, realistic answer, I will personally donate $200 to the cause and will post the receipt on this board. Or even better, I'll send you $200 and you can donate it to the cause and then post the receipt on here.

Here's the questions.

Why didn't the US offer help when Canada get flattened by that ice storm?
When Canada helped after 9/11, which we did to a great degree, why did the US government not thank us? They thanked every other country that helped, but they did not thank Canada. Why not?
Should we therefore be inclined to help your country when...

a) We weren't offered help when we desperately needed it, and
b) when we did help with 9/11, we weren't even offered a thank you. It was almost like we didn't do anything to help.


Remember, respond with something reasonable to my above post and I will send you $200 via paypal right now.

[HeatSeeker]

Neilson! You're catching people at a bad time. Escpecially since the softwood lumber fiasco. But all politics aside, I fully sympathize with those people in the stricken area. If the Us needs help, I'm sure they will ask and if they ask I think Canadians will be generous in one form or other as they have always been in situations like this. Individual Canadians are not going out of their way yet to help because we all know that the Americans have the money and resources to deal with the situation on their own. This storm didn't occur in a third world country, it occured in the richest country in the world.

[najibs]

If the Us needs help, I'm sure they will ask and if they ask I think Canadians will be genero

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Instead of pouring all those billions into Iraq, why not put in even 1/2 a billion in aid to their OWN people!!!???
Why go beg other countries for money, when your own country should be the first to help, SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY DO HAVE THE MONEY!!!!!! THEY JUST CHOSE TO SPEND IT SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!

I have sympthy for the victims, but not for the man they themselves elected...

[Shaner]

Remember people no personal attacks.

Back to the subject.

I can see Canadians offer some sort of support, we supported our neighbour in 9/11 and we'll do it here as well.

No personal attacks my ass. I won't attack any US citizen personally, but I will rip apart the US until the day I die. I hate that country and almost everyone in it. They have done it to themselves so screw them.

[neilson]

Don't worry, the responses on this thread were so strong that I just e-mailed the link and explaination to Fox News, specifically Bill O'Reilly. With any luck, someone will pick this up and expose you all.

[TinyTank]

Don't worry, the responses on this thread were so strong that I just e-mailed the link and explaination to Fox News, specifically Bill O'Reilly. With any luck, someone will pick this up and expose you all.

ok. Free advertising for RFD! :D

[najibs]

Don't worry, the responses on this thread were so strong that I just e-mailed the link and explaination to Fox News, specifically Bill O'Reilly. With any luck, someone will pick this up and expose you all.


Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight :lol:

[15-20_God]

Don't worry, the responses on this thread were so strong that I just e-mailed the link and explaination to Fox News, specifically Bill O'Reilly. With any luck, someone will pick this up and expose you all.

yes, because eveyone in the world knows how credible a news source Fox News and Bill O'really? is.

[DJXP]

just because you don't hear about the kind of help offered doesnt mean its not being done. The one thing US doesn't need is funding. If it were a third world country or a much much much worse scenario the funding would be offered. What is worth more than funding is manpower, having people sent there to help etc, and im sure that has been offered. Everyone sympathizes with what is going on, but there isn't much more people can do. Donating $ isn't going to help the cause. There are a lot of things in Canada that Canadians don't donate to that really need funding. If someone were to donate, it would be better spent on those causes. The Tsuanami issue was a whole other thing on its own. You were looking at thousands of lives, and third world countries, where everything was destroyed with no $ to rebuild.

[Rometiklan]

Damn, if I'm going to get exposed on national american TV, I'd better get my hair done, my nails, a facial, maybe lose some weight since the camera adds 10 pounds...damn, a hundred things to do. :D

[Shaner]

Neilson - People like you are one of the reasons I hate the US. You're so self-centered it's sickening.
Please stay off this board, it's pretty apparent that most people don't want you here.

[Shaner]

Why have you not answered my questions yet Neilson?
You want us Canadians to help, answer those questions.

[TinyTank]

do u live in canada neilson?

[stealth]

Don't worry, the responses on this thread were so strong that I just e-mailed the link and explaination to Fox News, specifically Bill O'Reilly. With any luck, someone will pick this up and expose you all.
Oh boy.....You seem to think the Us gives a rats ass about Canada or what anyone here thinks?
I say, sure we'll send them the lumber they put unfair taxes on despite free trade.

Give me a break, the US spends billions every eyar on various internal disaster aid. They are far from broke, if they were they should consider cutting back on defense spending and space exploration.

What you describe is coming across like Bill Gates standing beside a Rolls Royce with a flat tire asking for spare change to fix the tire.
The US has more money than us and we're supposed to send money????
Get a life and find some other cause de jour to jump all over.

[bionicbadger]

I like pie!

[15-20_God]

Oh boy.....You seem to think the Us gives a rats ass about Canada or what anyone here thinks?

Give me a break, the US spends billions every eyar on various internal disaster aid. They are far from broke, if they were they should consider cutting back on defense spending and space exploration.

1. i'm sure anne coulter cares what canadians think
2. i think the official term is "national offense sending". defense conveys an image of protecting a countries borders and citizens and as well all know that is misleading
3. there "might" be oil on mars.

hope that clears things up.

[gorf]

I like pie!


LMAO. This always reminds me of Aileen's pie! :lol:

[hyperion]

US doesnt need any aid. Maybe, they can use a couple millions from their $441.6 billon military budget towards rebuiliding their own cities.

http://64.177.207.201/static/budget/annual/fy05/

[HeatSeeker]

Don't worry, the responses on this thread were so strong that I just e-mailed the link and explaination to Fox News, specifically Bill O'Reilly. With any luck, someone will pick this up and expose you all.

I began reading this thread and really sympathized with you and understood where you were coming from. Now I've lost all respect for you. You are nothing but a typical selfish american that if you don't get your way you will retaliate. Go to Iraq and ask them to help out. I'm sure they're more than willing.

[sportsfan99]

Don't worry, the responses on this thread were so strong that I just e-mailed the link and explaination to Fox News, specifically Bill O'Reilly. With any luck, someone will pick this up and expose you all.

Have you checked out some american boards the amount of the canadian bashing that goes on is sick.Fox new witch has very little credit does not care what people say on a messege baord.And how are will going to be exposed no one here uses real names yup keep dreaming.

[Shaner]

Neilson - Answer my questions.

[TinyTank]

Neilson - Answer my questions.

he's offline. :) :mad:

[stealth]

1. i'm sure anne coulter cares what canadians think
2. i think the official term is "national offense sending". defense conveys an image of protecting a countries borders and citizens and as well all know that is misleading
3. there "might" be oil on mars.

hope that clears things up.

Good points, except for the Anne Coulter one. Remember, conservatives and neo-cons think of Canada as a socialist, pseudo communist liberal , godless state, where the Lords prayer is not mandatory and gays can marry. They'd rather die than take a dime in charity from us.

[Rometiklan]

the tragic part is ppl were warned and asked to leave...but decided to stay.

Sheesh, it bewilders me how people continually underestimate the power of nature. Did these people not believe Katrina could flatten them and everything around them? If my local Emergency announcement told me to get out, I would be out of there faster than greased lightning.

[J1M]

This is where insurance companies pay out, not the good people who didn't have something bad happen to them.

[devious9191]

Sheesh, it bewilders me how people continually underestimate the power of nature. Did these people not believe Katrina could flatten them and everything around them? If my local Emergency announcement told me to get out, I would be out of there faster than greased lightning.

Saw a couple of interviews with some of the people that stayed. A lot of the 'we've been through it before, we'll go through it again, and if it's our time to go, then so be it'. Personally, I would have been out of there like a bat out of hell too, my grandfather though had that type of personality, and I think he'd have stayed.

Takes all kinds.

[Montague]

Saw a couple of interviews with some of the people that stayed. A lot of the 'we've been through it before, we'll go through it again, and if it's our time to go, then so be it'. Personally, I would have been out of there like a bat out of hell too, my grandfather though had that type of personality, and I think he'd have stayed.

Takes all kinds.
Think also some just did not have the means to leave (ie too poor to own a car or just too old).

[devious9191]

Good points, except for the Anne Coulter one. Remember, conservatives and neo-cons think of Canada as a socialist, pseudo communist liberal , godless state, where the Lords prayer is not mandatory and gays can marry. They'd rather die than take a dime in charity from us.

What do you think of Canada as? I could probably find a socialist that uses that exact phrase, with a 'hooray' tagged on at the end. That is exactly what Canada is. Some people like it, some people don't.. but you'd have a hard time convincing anyone that that isn't what it is.

[devious9191]

Think also some just did not have the means to leave (ie too poor to own a car or just too old).

Very true. They were saying that there were about 80k that were going to be staying... which is actually pretty good when you consider that there's about 1.5 million people in that area.

[ragin_pyro]

I have sympathy for the victims, but wtf, are u serious Bush is STILL on vacation? If I were in his situation..I'd be prepared to cut it short..hearing that a hurricane could hit a city..
I dont think money should be donated directly, I would rather go thru the Red Cross or something, they help if its needed, and they are unbiased, meaning they will help anyone..
Neilson, I think most people would be more then willing to help (Canadian tend to be..) I geuss some are pissed off about no thanks after 9/11..the war..and that the USA does have the money..I can see crews and supplies going to the USA..but I dont think they need money directly..plus US is blocking wood? And after the mad cow incident..
But shaner..u hate almost every American? :| Thats a lil harsh man..

[afong56]

Good points, except for the Anne Coulter one.

he was being sarcastic--15-20 god has quite a following around here, regarding his humour (as dry as it is)

btw, neilson, you are the wrong messenger, for all of the reasons i mentioned in my earlier post.

[neilson]

he was being sarcastic--15-20 god has quite a following around here, regarding his humour (as dry as it is)

btw, neilson, you are the wrong messenger, for all of the reasons i mentioned in my earlier post.
well, at least neal cavuto made comment of the deafening international silence. What's a little manpower as a form of goodwill? At least i know i'm not the only one to feel this way.

[Madcatmk2]

HATE BUSH, HATE BUSH; You guys are evil.


Yes we are, We hate the arrogant voice that come from the USA. Many intellectuals immigrated to here because they were persecuted by their stupidity. Give us our 5 billion back or invade us to impose your supposedly existing Freedom. As we know now is they will screw us no matter what. No matter what.... Also we don't watch the hate owned Fox News.

Don't forget to blame us on front-page for all your technical problems btw.

[Byrns]

The icestorm also affected Americans in the NE so maybe they were helping themselves? The destruction caused by the ice storm was significantly less than this hurricane. As Canadians we're proud to be considered a country that does a lot of humanitarian work. Have we become too jaded by politics to help our neighbours?

That said, they definately don't need our money, but we can offer our disaster teams to help.

[devious9191]

Yes we are, We hate the arrogant voice that come from the USA. Many intellectuals immigrated to here because they were persecuted by their stupidity. Give us our 5 billion back or invade us to impose your supposedly existing Freedom. As we know now is they will screw us no matter what. No matter what.... Also we don't watch the hate owned Fox News.

Don't forget to blame us on front-page for all your technical problems btw.

It's a good thing that your views (hopefully) don't represent that of the majority. The United States is populated by the same people that Canada is. You're welcome to disagree with how that country is governed, but by making these massive stereotypical comments about people that have the same upbringing as you or I is ridiculous.

I don't think that the majority of you guys that are commenting on the soft wood thing have a *clue as to what you're talking about, so I really don't want to even touch that. Needless to say, you're not being particularly bright.

As far as 'Many intellectuals immigrated to here because they were persecuted by their stupidity', how many intellectuals migrated there, from Canada so they can make a decent living for themselves and their families?

[Byrns]

It's a good thing that your views (hopefully) don't represent that of the majority. The United States is populated by the same people that Canada is. You're welcome to disagree with how that country is governed, but by making these massive stereotypical comments about people that have the same upbringing as you or I is ridiculous.

I don't think that the majority of you guys that are commenting on the soft wood thing have a *clue as to what you're talking about, so I really don't want to even touch that. Needless to say, you're not being particularly bright.

As far as 'Many intellectuals immigrated to here because they were persecuted by their stupidity', how many intellectuals migrated there, from Canada so they can make a decent living for themselves and their families?

werd.

[afong56]

well, at least neal cavuto made comment of the deafening international silence. What's a little manpower as a form of goodwill? At least i know i'm not the only one to feel this way.

has the u.s. actually made an appeal for help?

i'd be very surprised to hear that no nation responded to an official u.s. request. in the absence of a formal request, i doubt most nations would assume that the u.s. needs aid. remember again, india turned down offers for help last year.

if bush comes out and says, "we need help", then i can guarantee that help will be sent. the majority of canadians will support helping americans if they ask for help, irrespective of how much they dislike dubya, and are disgusted by the biased zealotry on fox news. . .

[devious9191]

has the u.s. actually made an appeal for help?

i'd be very surprised to hear that no nation responded to an official u.s. request. in the absence of a formal request, i doubt most nations would assume that the u.s. needs aid. remember again, india turned down offers for help last year.

if bush comes out and says, "we need help", then i can guarantee that help will be sent. the majority of canadians will support helping americans if they ask for help, irrespective of how much they dislike dubya, and are disgusted by the biased zealotry on fox news. . .

I wonder what the Americans think of the biased zealotry of CBC. Actually, I'm sure they've probably never heard of it, or watched it (like most Canadians). ;\

[dealforme]

The icestorm also affected Americans in the NE so maybe they were helping themselves? The destruction caused by the ice storm was significantly less than this hurricane.

The big icestorm back in 1997 affected us more than the US. The US did send people up from the neighbouring states to help restore the powerlines. The later icestorm (2002?) affected the US more than us and hence we returned the favour by send our people down to help them restore power.

[Daemar]

Politics aside, it is our duty as fellow human beings to help.

I don't care that it's the US, it could have happened anywhere. Why do you guys insist that we get something back out of helping?! Canada leads by example, we never follow anyone. Remember when the Canadian flag was hung upside down at a sporting event? Canada never did the same to the American flag. Remember when they booed our national anthem, we never did the same. We should do things the CANADIAN way, and not expect anything in return. come on guys, if we stoop down to their level, we're as bad as they are.

[Madcatmk2]

It's a good thing that your views (hopefully) don't represent that of the majority. The United States is populated by the same people that Canada is. You're welcome to disagree with how that country is governed, but by making these massive stereotypical comments about people that have the same upbringing as you or I is ridiculous.

I don't think that the majority of you guys that are commenting on the soft wood thing have a *clue as to what you're talking about, so I really don't want to even touch that. Needless to say, you're not being particularly bright.

As far as 'Many intellectuals immigrated to here because they were persecuted by their stupidity', how many intellectuals migrated there, from Canada so they can make a decent living for themselves and their families?

Its true that you're different. I was talking about the only voice that comes at us and now you are talking about the population there. Of course there is people that think otherwise but we never hear them.

commenting on the soft wood thing have a *clue as to what you're talking about

So you don't know that many families had to find another job on minimum wage because of that? Its the thing i know of.
We are afraid and we should be because the USA violates their own U.N convention and gets away with it.


As far as 'Many intellectuals immigrated to here because they were persecuted by their stupidity', how many intellectuals migrated there, from Canada so they can make a decent living for themselves and their families?

I was talking about intellectual people, not people who did University. It can be high school teachers, musicians and even your garbage man.
Besides many doctors came back here because they had better living conditions here.


You are very stupid, devious9191. This is the second time you flamed me and this time i think i should answer back. You can't debade anything without insulting someone first.

[stealth]

What do you think of Canada as? I could probably find a socialist that uses that exact phrase, with a 'hooray' tagged on at the end. That is exactly what Canada is. Some people like it, some people don't.. but you'd have a hard time convincing anyone that that isn't what it is.

Well, waaaay off topic, but *I* dont think of us as pseudo-communist, or Godless, in fact I think we just have many Gods, and I wouldnt say that most of those stereotypes are negative either.

I don't think that the majority of you guys that are commenting on the soft wood thing have a *clue as to what you're talking about, so I really don't want to even touch that. Needless to say, you're not being particularly bright.
Care to enlighten us, Devious9191? Pretty arrogant thing to say without backing it up. Pretty easy way to hide your own ignorance as well "I really dont want to touch that..." lol. But what the heck if it worked for you in gr.3, why not try it now?

[sportsfan99]

The icestorm also affected Americans in the NE so maybe they were helping themselves? The destruction caused by the ice storm was significantly less than this hurricane. As Canadians we're proud to be considered a country that does a lot of humanitarian work. Have we become too jaded by politics to help our neighbours?

That said, they definately don't need our money, but we can offer our disaster teams to help.

Alot of people really don't how much the ice storm did.It hit eastern ont the hardest people with out power for weeks in alot of cases lives were lost etc.I am not saying it is the same at what new orleans is having now not even close but i do think people think it is worse then it is.

[stealth]

Politics aside, it is our duty as fellow human beings to help.

I don't care that it's the US, it could have happened anywhere. Why do you guys insist that we get something back out of helping?! Canada leads by example, we never follow anyone. Remember when the Canadian flag was hung upside down at a sporting event? Canada never did the same to the American flag. Remember when they booed our national anthem, we never did the same. We should do things the CANADIAN way, and not expect anything in return. come on guys, if we stoop down to their level, we're as bad as they are.

Some good points, but sooner or later we'll have to stop turning the other cheek-we've already run out of cheeks- in order to preserve our own dignity.
Reminding me of all the times the US has disrespected us for no reason, does nothing for making me feel charitable for them. Peyton Manning or Anne Rice or someone can bail them out. I've been to New Orleans, its far from a poor place. And if it is, then its up to THEIR govenment to fix things FIRST. ONCE they run out of $$$, THEN its time for the rest of us to step in.

Considering the OP "Neilson" already has 8 locked threads to his credit, I'd say this is just another attempt to troll. And I gotta admit, he's pretty good at it :)

[devious9191]

Its true that you're different. I was talking about the only voice that comes at us and now you are talking about the population there. Of course there is people that think otherwise but we never hear them.

What is the 'only voice that comes at us'? Every time you turn on the television, watch a movie, etc etc etc, that is the voice of the Americans.

So you don't know that many families had to find another job on minimum wage because of that? Its the thing i know of.
We are afraid and we should be because the USA violates their own U.N convention and gets away with it.

How many american families had to find other jobs because Canada subsidizes our lumber industry, so that they can't remain competitive competing for domestic business?

I was talking about intellectual people, not people who did University. It can be high school teachers, musicians and even your garbage man.
Besides many doctors came back here because they had better living conditions here.

lol. Alright... I'm sure that you talk to your garbage man for hours about the horrors of the United States.

You are very stupid, devious9191. This is the second time you flamed me and this time i think i should answer back. You can't debade anything without insulting someone first.

I only typically insult people when they make broad general comments that aren't facts. It makes it much easier when the original post is barely even english. For an example see post 78 in this thread. ;)

In any case, this is a good thread and I don't feel like seeing it locked because you feel like picking a fight.

[divx]

What part of 1 Million ppl displaced and for all intents and purposes homeless do you not understand?

What part of 15 -30,000 dead when it's all said and done don't you understand?

80 alone in ONE Mississippi County are dead.

Louisiana can't report because a lot of the areas just can't be reached.

PPL ARE SEEING BODIES FLOATING DOWN THE STREETS OF NEIGHBORHOODS.

The French Quarter and the CBD are now seeing rising water thanks to the levees breaking.

I just find it selfish of you guys to not put aside politics at this critical moment.

We didn't find out the true death toll from the tsumani until several weeks later.

I fear, the same will be true of New Orleans and Southern Mississippi.



the southern states have tornado and bad weather all the time eh. if they ask for assistances, then we should help them. either way, 80 death isn't a big deal as it's expected from a storm like this. hey, at least bush is losing more men over at iraq, I didn't hear you complaining.

[d_jedi]

I find the majority of the responses in this thread sickening.
This is a humanitarian issue, not a political issue.
Many people have died. Many, many more don't have a home to come back to.

Would you object to sending money after the Bam earthquake because of the policies of the Iranian government? Did you refuse to help out after the tsumani because you don't like the tactics of the Tamil tigers? If not, then why not help out our neighbours to the South?

America is almost always there to lend a helping hand when there is a humanitarian crisis. We should return the favour.

Neilson, as a Canadian, I am ashamed at the responses in this thread. I hope you understand that the majority of Canadians do not feel the same way as the posters here.. we are deeply sympathetic to your country's loss.

[divx]

the tragic part is ppl were warned and asked to leave...but decided to stay.

yeah, the disaster didn't happen over night, people had time to evacuate, but the dumbones stayed and died. Whose fault is that? Property damage can't be avoided but at least the death count should be lowered to zero.

[devious9191]

Well, waaaay off topic, but *I* dont think of us as pseudo-communist, or Godless, in fact I think we just have many Gods, and I wouldnt say that most of those stereotypes are negative either.


Care to enlighten us, Devious9191? Pretty arrogant thing to say without backing it up. Pretty easy way to hide your own ignorance as well "I really dont want to touch that..." lol. But what the heck if it worked for you in gr.3, why not try it now?

lol. Well, since we're off topic anyways...

Producer A is from BC and heavily involved in lumber
Producer B is from North Dakota and heavily involed in lumber

It costs Producer A and Producer B $10 to cut and process an acre of forest

Producer A receives $2 from the government for every acre that they cut down and sell

Producer B does not receive anything

Producer A sells its lumber in North Dakota for $9, making a $1 profit
Producer B can't compete, since it would be at a net loss if if tried to match Producer A's price

US government puts a tariff on Producer A, raising it's cost $2 per acre. Producer A and Producer B are now able to compete for the same market.

Basically, the US had a choice. They can either subsidize Producer B to make it competitive with Producer A, or they can impose a tariff on Producer A to level the playing field.

[stealth]

I find the majority of the responses in this thread sickening.
This is a humanitarian issue, not a political issue.
Many people have died. Many, many more don't have a home to come back to.

Would you object to sending money after the Bam earthquake because of the policies of the Iranian government?

........America is almost always there to lend a helping hand when there is a humanitarian crisis. We should return the favour.



Yup, maybe. Same way the US boycotts Cuba and previously S. Africa, both poor countries to whom the US doled out economic sanctions that only hurt the poor and changed nothing.

Actually, on a per capita basis, America is one of the stingiest developed countriesfor charitable donations. Sigh....this all came up during the Tsunami thread months ago.

[sportsfan99]

I find the majority of the responses in this thread sickening.
This is a humanitarian issue, not a political issue.
Many people have died. Many, many more don't have a home to come back to.

Would you object to sending money after the Bam earthquake because of the policies of the Iranian government? Did you refuse to help out after the tsumani because you don't like the tactics of the Tamil tigers? If not, then why not help out our neighbours to the South?

America is almost always there to lend a helping hand when there is a humanitarian crisis. We should return the favour.

Neilson, as a Canadian, I am ashamed at the responses in this thread. I hope you understand that the majority of Canadians do not feel the same way as the posters here.. we are deeply sympathetic to your country's loss.

You can not compare the 3rd world areas to the states.The fact is the states does not need money they have said this alot allready.This is what insurance companys are for and they have plenty in the states.You say america is alwas lending a hand lets see the ban canadian beef witch hurt farmers lot they also had a ban on canadian lumber with also hurt alot of people in terms of cash etc.What favor should we return they have done jack for us.With all of that said yes it is awful and i hope most of the people can regain there lives.

[divx]

Because I'm an American that chose to not be ignorant to your nation. For better or for worse, I can talk current events with Canadians and not look like a fool for knowing my facts.

My opinions on the otherhand; well let's just say I've clashed on a number of occasions with ppl on here for my minority view.

relax man, bush announced that he will use the national treasury funds to help the victims. are you relieved now? the US treasury can easily afford to spare billions, that should be enough.

[stealth]

lol. Well, since we're off topic anyways...

Producer A is from BC and heavily involved in lumber
Producer B is from North Dakota and heavily involed in lumber

It costs Producer A and Producer B $10 to cut and process an acre of forest

Producer A receives $2 from the government for every acre that they cut down and sell

Producer B does not receive anything

Producer A sells its lumber in North Dakota for $9, making a $1 profit
Producer B can't compete, since it would be at a net loss if if tried to match Producer A's price

US government puts a tariff on Producer A, raising it's cost $2 per acre. Producer A and Producer B are now able to compete for the same market.

Basically, the US had a choice. They can either subsidize Producer B to make it competitive with Producer A, or they can impose a tariff on Producer A to level the playing field.


Thats it?

So in other words, its EXACTLY what the US does with its poultry, eggs, dairy, pork, cotton among many other things?
You are so brainwashed to believe the US has no subsidies of its own, its only those money-grubbing Canadians doing it?
Even after NAFTA sided with Canada? Guess that doesnt mean anything, huh?
lol....bring some real game next time.

[devious9191]

Thats it?

So in other words, its EXACTLY what the US does with its poultry, eggs, dairy and pork among many other things?
You are so brainwashed to believe the US has no subsidies of its own, its only those money-grubbing Canadians doing it?
Even after NAFTA sided with Canada? Guess that doesnt mean anything, huh?
lol....bring some real game next time.

That's all there is to it. I'm just telling you how it works, not getting into who's right and who's wrong, as I'm personally not educated enough on the subject to comment.

What I find frustrating is when people like sportsfan (no offense) are talking about softwood this and softwood that, when I don't get the impression that they have any idea what the issue is. And that person isn't unique. It's been softwood this and softwood that ever since it hit CBC and brainwashed half of Canada that has no idea what's going on, other than the 'us screwed us' somehow.

So, somehow NAFTA comes back and says that Canadian goods shouldn't have tariffs on them, and not only that, but the US collected them illegally and now has to return every dollar. Is it any surprise that GW isn't running to his cheque book? It shouldn't be. It's a complicated issue, and when it's resolved, it will be resolved. To try and collect these things retroactively seems a bit much to me. And now Canada is refusing to talk to the americans on the issue at all until they see the cheque... Martin is too scared to call GW (and probably rightfully so, since GW would put him in his place quick I would think), and the whole thing is at a standstill with millions of Canadians that aren't educated on the topic crying foul.

[jb22]

I was watching the news and sone public official in the States called this storm the US's tsunami. I found that to be a bit arrogant - I mean I kind of understand what they were trying to say, that this was a large scale natural disaster, but I don't think comparing the death of what so far is 80 people to the scale of the tsunami from last year is a fair comparisson. When I hear that statement then it seems like they should be grateful that they had such few deaths compared to what can and has happened in other parts of the world.

As for the person starting this thread. I don't want to sound like a total prick, but what's going on in the States isn't the worst thing going on on the planet. I mean are people aware of what's been going on in Darfur? Are American citizens rushing to get help to parts of Europe affected by floods and fires? The US isn't the center of the world, and just because they've been effected by a disaster, that they had time to brace for, doesn't mean the world should drop everything and focus on them. I think if the US asked for aid, then if nations can afford to help they should do so. Maybe Bush should go to the UN and ask for help.

And I have to agree with what others have said, if the US Government can afford and seems so willing to "rebuild" two other nations on this planet, then fixing up a few states shouldn't be a problem.

Neilson, instead of being so mad at Canadians, maybe you should be angry and your fellow American citizens who are looting the shops and such ratehr hten helping others.

Neilson, maybe you should have gone on to a Saudi Arabian forum to ask for help.

[15-20_God]

well, at least neal cavuto made comment of the deafening international silence.

well let me say on behalf of some rfd'ers, we officially denounce the actions of Hurricane Katrina and it in no way represents the intentions of other hurricanes. This was a single act of destruction and does not reflect the beliefs of the remaining gawd-loving, law-abiding, wind-blowing hurricane and other natural disaster population.

There, we've officially denounced it, does that make you feel better?

[divx]

Yes we are, We hate the arrogant voice that come from the USA. Many intellectuals immigrated to here because they were persecuted by their stupidity. Give us our 5 billion back or invade us to impose your supposedly existing Freedom. As we know now is they will screw us no matter what. No matter what.... Also we don't watch the hate owned Fox News.

Don't forget to blame us on front-page for all your technical problems btw.

heyhey, if the us invaded us, then the french language might not be recongized as the 3rd offical language of north america.

[afong56]

That's all there is to it. I'm just telling you how it works, not getting into who's right and who's wrong, as I'm personally not educated enough on the subject to comment.


well, it's not that cut and dried. . .

here's an american (http://www.acah.org/Subsidy.htm#Canada%20Repeatedly%20Proves%20Lumber) website that suggests that the playing field is not as crooked as you suggest.

one should never underestimate the power of the lobbies in the u.s. to spin various trade issues: beef, and now lumber.

[sportsfan99]

That's all there is to it. I'm just telling you how it works, not getting into who's right and who's wrong, as I'm personally not educated enough on the subject to comment.

What I find frustrating is when people like sportsfan (no offense) are talking about softwood this and softwood that, when I don't get the impression that they have any idea what the issue is. And that person isn't unique. It's been softwood this and softwood that ever since it hit CBC and brainwashed half of Canada that has no idea what's going on, other than the 'us screwed us' somehow.

So, somehow NAFTA comes back and says that Canadian goods shouldn't have tariffs on them, and not only that, but the US collected them illegally and now has to return every dollar. Is it any surprise that GW isn't running to his cheque book? It shouldn't be. It's a complicated issue, and when it's resolved, it will be resolved. To try and collect these things retroactively seems a bit much to me. And now Canada is refusing to talk to the americans on the issue at all until they see the cheque... Martin is too scared to call GW (and probably rightfully so, since GW would put him in his place quick I would think), and the whole thing is at a standstill with millions of Canadians that aren't educated on the topic crying foul.

The only reason i brought up softwood is there are some who are making the states out to be perfect and don't due harm to any one.To tell the truth i have not been following the softwood saga and don't plan to people need to open there eyes.The point here is you want to give to new orleans go a head but don't push it on to others.

[jb22]

Don't most American's in that area have insurance covering hurricane damage?

[divx]

As far as 'Many intellectuals immigrated to here because they were persecuted by their stupidity', how many intellectuals migrated there, from Canada so they can make a decent living for themselves and their families?

I concer, it's best to work in the states if you are really smart and capable, their pay is a lot higher and have less taxes. Canada is best suited for middle class and lower while the states is better for rich people. Maybe that's why they are richer than us, because rich people wants to move there.

[15-20_God]

I was watching the news and sone public official in the States called this storm the US's tsunami. I found that to be a bit arrogant - I mean I kind of understand what they were trying to say, that this was a large scale natural disaster, but I don't think comparing the death of what so far is 80 people to the scale of the tsunami from last year is a fair comparisson.

the only difference is that about 300,000 died in the tsunami, which hit without warning. Compare that to 80 so far in an area where ppl were ordered to evacuate days in advance and most had the means to do so. Yeah, they're the same thing.

[hagbard]

Canadians, I ask of you to e-mail Paul Martin, your MPs and your charitable organizations, and ask what if anything will be sent to New Orleans and Mississippi to help the crisis.

I think people like me just need to wait (& of course donate to the Red Cross) for this to clear up - b/c I admit I'm no longer viewing this as some fascinating disaster movie. This is feeling too real & personal, being that New Orleans is one of my favorite cities.

Besides the tsunami of last year & 9/11 - I haven't felt this personally affected & disturbed by what I'm hearing / seeing since. I simply can not stomach the idea of discussing 'number of deaths' or anything regarding the obvious economic impact.

So - talk all you want, I'm going to do what I can to prevent the worst:
http://www.redcross.org/

And, I sincerely hope and pray that the world response to this disaster will be swift and prompt. Money is fine, but we want and need manpower. Canada, Europe, Asia; we've been there for you. Just this once, bring that same sense of unity after the tsunumi to these ppl.

No sympathy.

[d_jedi]

the only difference is that about 300,000 died in the tsunami, which hit without warning. Compare that to 80 so far in an area where ppl were ordered to evacuate days in advance and most had the means to do so. Yeah, they're the same thing.
It hit without warning because they didn't put in an appropriate warning system (as had been recommended several times in the past..).

Thankfully, America did have sufficient warning to prepare as well as possible for this..

[Madcatmk2]

heyhey, if the us invaded us, then the french language might not be recongized as the 3rd offical language of north america.

Spanish is closer to french in terms of verbs and how to make phrases. The bad thing about it is there is many ways to speak and write spanish words. I am not afraid that the french language would disappear, look for other things. ;)

[Spent]

Screw the americans
and screw any of our tax dollars being sent down there.
Anyone who wants our tax dollars sent down there needs a lobotomy. :razz:

:mad:
We're going to pay for it in the end with increased insurance bills.
just like post-Andrew and post 9/11

p.s. time for taxes on the energy we send down there
You want to screw us on softwood lumber, see how you like heating
your yankee homes with firewood. :mad:

[devious9191]

well, it's not that cut and dried. . .

here's an american (http://www.acah.org/Subsidy.htm#Canada%20Repeatedly%20Proves%20Lumber) website that suggests that the playing field is not as crooked as you suggest.

one should never underestimate the power of the lobbies in the u.s. to spin various trade issues: beef, and now lumber.

Should take a look at this website from the Canadian government:

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/HET/Softwood/disputes.htm

It has been repeatedly shown by the canadian government that these subsidies are taking place. The government has settled with the US (and agree to various levels of tariffs) over the last 20 years.

[afong56]

It has been repeatedly shown by the canadian government that these subsidies are taking place. The government has settled with the US (and agree to various levels of tariffs) over the last 20 years.

you mean like the $600 million of subsidies that the u.s. government admitted they funded for their lumber industry in 1996?

there never was a level playing field. for the u.s. lumber industry to cry foul is a bit disingenuous. the subsidies that you refer to are 'stumpages', a levy that works in as a sort of reverse-subsidy (support by reduction of fees).

what i find curious is that the international bodies that have investigated these claims (since the 1980s) have, i believe, consistently found that the u.s. lumber industry claims have no merit.

[BeaverLiquor]

i guess you guys don't visit the hofo lounge all that often.

but here is the break down of his obsession with canada:
-he visited for world youth day
-spetd like a week here thought it was nice etc
-lived/visited a very small are as he only posts about some area, forget which on neilson rd. (hence the screeen name)
-i thought it was cool until he got all obsessive about it and trying to change canada you saving us from our liberal views......
-proved he didn't really know what he was talking aboot and was isloated when he visited here. (he said belinda was the next pm and sexy but didn't know her platform at all; protectionist/union supporter) next thing you know she jumps ship :twisted:
-you can try to find some stuff on hofo but the search is f'ed up

but i say they can take like half of the monies they won't return, what is it 4 billion in the softwood dispute? and spend that and give canada back the rest.

[afong56]

Should take a look at this website from the Canadian government:

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/HET/Softwood/disputes.htm

It has been repeatedly shown by the canadian government that these subsidies are taking place. The government has settled with the US (and agree to various levels of tariffs) over the last 20 years.

actually, i did look at that site.

among other things, it shows how the u.s. lumber industry has consistently misrepresented the 'damage' that so-called subsidies have had. the settlement of 'lumber iii' in fact recognized that the u.s.' collection of duties on canadian lumber was erroneous, to the tune of $500 million.

the u.s. government signed off on this document, btw.

in fact, the site that you quoted shows how the canadian industry, and the canadian government, actually, has consistently accepted whatever penalties the u.s. has unilaterally slapped on them, and when taken to international tribunals, have been proven right, time and again.

the u.s. has been reneging on agreements that they signed.

/tangent

back to the thread: well, as pointed out by other posters, it appears that the u.s. is fully prepared to handle this one on their own. more power to them.

if and when they desire canadian support, it will most assuredly be there.

[hyperion]

Send in the mounties!

[Freebie_Fanatic]

Excerpt from http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/trade/2003-11-10-steel_x.htm

A World Trade Organization appeals panel upheld an earlier ruling that Bush violated trade rules in March 2002 with three-year tariffs on imported steel.

So yeah they have had their fair share of illegal tariffs et all

I also am in the support of the majority of the world regarding US foreign policy and attitude towards the rest of the world

However, i think, we, out of humanity, SHOULD give help them in any way possible if and only i they request it. Its international policy to help only if asked so i dont know why we should do otherwise

It is comparable to helping a neighbour(with whom you have been at logerheads with all your life) when they have come across an accident and is injured and asks for help....i personally would help the person, but thats just me

Even though we provide aid,however, we should continue to oppose their illegals tariffs, military offensives, habit of poking their noses in other peoples business, etc.......

So basically i am an anti-american but advocate for humanity, and since the human race is a super set of America, i think my humanity should over-ride my anti-american judgements

[Konowl]

Canadians, I ask of you to e-mail Paul Martin, your MPs and your charitable organizations, and ask what if anything will be sent to New Orleans and Mississippi to help the crisis.

I think people like me just need to wait (& of course donate to the Red Cross) for this to clear up - b/c I admit I'm no longer viewing this as some fascinating disaster movie. This is feeling too real & personal, being that New Orleans is one of my favorite cities.

Besides the tsunami of last year & 9/11 - I haven't felt this personally affected & disturbed by what I'm hearing / seeing since. I simply can not stomach the idea of discussing 'number of deaths' or anything regarding the obvious economic impact.

So - talk all you want, I'm going to do what I can to prevent the worst:
http://www.redcross.org/

And, I sincerely hope and pray that the world response to this disaster will be swift and prompt. Money is fine, but we want and need manpower. Canada, Europe, Asia; we've been there for you. Just this once, bring that same sense of unity after the tsunumi to these ppl.

How about some softwood lumber...

[asim99]

i offer the services of d_jedi on behalf of canada to help out in LA

[neilson]

I was watching the news and sone public official in the States called this storm the US's tsunami. I found that to be a bit arrogant - I mean I kind of understand what they were trying to say, that this was a large scale natural disaster, but I don't think comparing the death of what so far is 80 people to the scale of the tsunami from last year is a fair comparisson. When I hear that statement then it seems like they should be grateful that they had such few deaths compared to what can and has happened in other parts of the world.

As for the person starting this thread. I don't want to sound like a total prick, but what's going on in the States isn't the worst thing going on on the planet. I mean are people aware of what's been going on in Darfur? Are American citizens rushing to get help to parts of Europe affected by floods and fires? The US isn't the center of the world, and just because they've been effected by a disaster, that they had time to brace for, doesn't mean the world should drop everything and focus on them. I think if the US asked for aid, then if nations can afford to help they should do so. Maybe Bush should go to the UN and ask for help.

And I have to agree with what others have said, if the US Government can afford and seems so willing to "rebuild" two other nations on this planet, then fixing up a few states shouldn't be a problem.

Neilson, instead of being so mad at Canadians, maybe you should be angry and your fellow American citizens who are looting the shops and such ratehr hten helping others.

Neilson, maybe you should have gone on to a Saudi Arabian forum to ask for help.

Thanks for getting personal. My aunt lives in Saudi Arabia, haven't seen her since she moved. I wouldn't be suprised if she and her family personally gave some, however.

[neilson]

Did I mention that I've never heard squat about "Softwood" in the news? Jesus, I thought you guys were supposed to be allies?

Oh, and why do you keep quoting the death toll as of now?

Thousands of ppl have died so far, it's just gonna take weeks to account for the vast majority of bodies, if we can find all the bodies.

So don't try to ride off the fact that "Oh, only 80 ppl died". No, not 80 ppl. A storm like this; you're never gonna be able to know how many ppl died within the 1st 24-72 hours.

And, New Orleans Metro area is now under Martial Law, the Governor is ordering the National Guard to evacuate everyone from the area; it's gonna be a logistic nightmare to get all 60,000+ ppl out of the Superdome(Many of the hotel ppl had to shift over to the Dome because of flooding dangers), and basically:

The worst of the storm is what comes afterwards.

The Gulf Coast west of Mobile to New Orleans will never be the same again, and I for one just want compassion and respect for those suffering right now.

Not this political fighting about wood and trade and all that. Save that for another day.

[guest10586]

Martin will probably offer assistance but really it is his choice. Canadians may offer support but don't expect any major aid because this is a joke compared to the tsunami. Hardly any reported deaths, just some people living together...hardly anything to really worry about.

The only unfortunate thing that is probably going to happen is that you are going to continue to post for assistance because your computer hasn't been washed away by Katrina.

[neilson]

Crisis deepens for Crescent City

06:35 PM CDT on Tuesday, August 30, 2005

By ADAM NOSSITER / Associated Press

Helicopters dropped sandbags on two broken levees as the water kept rising in the streets. The governor drew up plans to evacuate just about everyone left in town. Looters ransacked stores. Doctors in their scrubs had to use canoes to bring supplies to blacked-out hospitals.

New Orleans sank deeper into crisis Tuesday, a full day after Hurricane Katrina hit.

"It's downtown Baghdad," said tourist Denise Bollinger, who snapped pictures of looting in the French Quarter. "It's insane."

The mayor estimated that 80 percent of New Orleans was flooded, while a countless number of residents were still stranded on rooftops.

Hospitals were running out of power and scrambling to find places to take their patients. At one clinic, broken glass littered some areas and patients and staff had fallen on floors slick with floodwaters.

"It's like being in a Third World country," said Mitch Handrich, a registered nurse manager at Charity Hospital, where nurses were ventilating patients by hand after the power and then the backup generator failed. Some 300 patients had yet to be evacuated.

"We're just trying to stay alive," Handrich said.

The historic French Quarter appeared to have been spared the worst flooding, but its stores were getting the worst of human nature.

"The looting is out of control. The French Quarter has been attacked," Councilwoman Jackie Clarkson said. "We're using exhausted, scarce police to control looting when they should be used for search and rescue while we still have people on rooftops."

As Sen. Mary Landrieu flew over the area by helicopter, a group of people smashed a window at a convenience store and jumped in.

At a drug store in the French Quarter, people were running out with grocery baskets and coolers full of soft drinks, chips and diapers. One looter shot and wounded a fellow looter, who was taken to a hospital and survived.

Rescue teams were still picking up people throughout the city Tuesday, leaving them on island-like highway overpasses and on a levee to wait to be moved again. Eventually, they will end up in the Superdome, where 15,000 to 20,000 people have taken already refuge, said Louisiana National Guard Maj. Gen. Bennett C. Landreneau. One man died in the Superdome after falling from a raised walkway.

On a grassy hill in the Carrolton neighborhood, a group of people watched the water quickly rising in the street, about a foot an hour by some estimates.

William Washington had gone to bed in dry house Monday night, well after the hurricane had passed. The water came up Tuesday after the levee broke, and by afternoon his home was flooded.

"We're trying to get to the Superdome," Washington said as he waited with neighbors. "We're waiting for the National Guard. The radio mentioned that they would pick people up."

With hundreds, if not thousands, of people still stranded in flooded homes, attics and rooftops across the city, rescue boats were bypassing the dead to reach the living, Mayor C. Ray Nagin said.

"We're not even dealing with dead bodies," Nagin said. "They're just pushing them on the side."

The hospitals' patients were slowly being evacuated -- the babies in intensive care had been flown out already -- and state officials were weighing plans to evacuate the entire city.

A few more feet of water could wipe out the entire city water system, said Terry Ebbert, the city's homeland security chief.

The intestates are impassable, the bridges may be unstable and no one knows if the buildings can withstand the damage brought by Katrina, the governor said after flying over the region.

"We saw block after block, neighborhood and neighborhood inundated," Blanco said, her voice breaking with emotion. "It's just heartbreaking."

Sean Jeffries of New Orleans had already been evacuated from one French Quarter hotel when he was ordered out of a second hotel Tuesday because of rising water.

The 37-year-old banker -- who admitted to looting some food from a nearby supermarket -- said the hotel guests were told they were being taken to a convention center, but from there, they didn't know.

"We're in the middle of a national tragedy," he said as he popped purloined grapes in his mouth. "But I know this city. We will be back. It may take awhile. But we will be back."

[Madcatmk2]

I just saw that this friendly post of yours.

What is the 'only voice that comes at us'? Every time you turn on the television, watch a movie, etc etc etc, that is the voice of the Americans.



How many american families had to find other jobs because Canada subsidizes our lumber industry, so that they can't remain competitive competing for domestic business?



lol. Alright... I'm sure that you talk to your garbage man for hours about the horrors of the United States.



I only typically insult people when they make broad general comments that aren't facts. It makes it much easier when the original post is barely even english. For an example see post 78 in this thread. ;)

In any case, this is a good thread and I don't feel like seeing it locked because you feel like picking a fight.


How many american families had to find other jobs because Canada subsidizes our lumber industry, so that they can't remain competitive competing for domestic business?

If we can't compete with the industry of transformation with the US, what would be left to us?


lol. Alright... I'm sure that you talk to your garbage man for hours about the horrors of the United States.
Yeah, these people are all worthless low lifes that aren't worth talking to. Heh? Only those with university degrees can read and think about what the world is in right now.

I only typically insult people when they make broad general comments that aren't facts. It makes it much easier when the original post is barely even english. For an example see post 78 in this thread. ;)
See, its only me.
You are lazy piece of crap. I can't correctly express myself and?


In any case, this is a good thread and I don't feel like seeing it locked because you feel like picking a fight.
So true that it would be my fault, isn't it? Even if you insulted me first.



Alright you win. Too bad this board accept this kind of behavior of yours.

[afong56]

Did I mention that I've never heard squat about "Softwood" in the news? Jesus, I thought you guys were supposed to be allies?

. . .

The Gulf Coast west of Mobile to New Orleans will never be the same again, and I for one just want compassion and respect for those suffering right now.

Not this political fighting about wood and trade and all that. Save that for another day.

canada is the most important ally that the u.s. has, whether most americans believe it or believe what gets spouted at them on the news.

there is no shortage of compassion and respect for the affected, from the majority of rfd members. frankly, it's a non-issue. don't mistake what people write in response to your 'wants' as a lack of compassion for your neighbours. i can't think of a single time that canada and canadians didn't come to america's aid in a time of need.

basically, most of the posts reflect a lack of respect for the op.

[nano]

we souldnt help the US cuz they never help us...

[Samir]

Wow!!!

Canadians can be such snobs sometimes. Hello, we are totally dependent on this country down south for all our business!!! Sure Americans can be isolated, arrogant without any reason to be, inward looking and generally ignorant but the fact is Canada is what it is today because of the USA.

Money isnt going to help ****. Seriously, whatever Canada would give is a drop in the ocean. What they need down there is emergency workers. When the WTC collapsed, tons of steel workers from Quebec and Ontario went down to NYC to help clean ground zero.

Manpower for clean up, for supporting the people, rescue operations, etc. Hopefully some Canadians will go.

[guest10586]

we souldnt help the US cuz they never help us...

Short and sweet...it just comes down to that. Softwood lumber, madcow...it comes down to the same thing.

[Samir]

Short and sweet...it just comes down to that. Softwood lumber, madcow...it comes down to the same thing.

How about letting Canada free-ride on America's economy for 100 years? That has to be worth something.

We get cheap gas here why? Because America went to the Gulf and got it for us. We're such hypocrites, criticizing the war in Iraq, letting America do all the dirty work and then filling up our SUVs acting like we deserve it.

[guest10586]

How about letting Canada free-ride on America's economy for 100 years? That has to be worth something.

We get cheap gas here why? Because America went to the Gulf and got it for us. We're such hypocrites, criticizing the war in Iraq, letting America do all the dirty work and then filling up our SUVs acting like we deserve it.

Gas isn't cheap, its probably hasn't been higher. Iraq was invaded a while ago...and its still not cheap....Katrina made gas prices go up. What are you trying to say?

[Samir]

Gas isn't cheap, its probably hasn't been higher. Iraq was invaded a while ago...and its still not cheap....Katrina made gas prices go up. What are you trying to say?

Contrary to popular belief, gas in Canada is cheap. In Italy 1 liter of gas costs $1.50. (works out to about $5 US a gallon). In Britain, it costs about US$5,79 per gallon, which is 2.5 times what we pay.

America secured oil for its people, and now it's getting it on the cheap. Without America, we'd be paying the same price as Europe. So for us to criticize the States for their domination of the Persian Gulf and then show no compunction about willing to benefit from it, is highly hypocritical.

Either we: Support the US and benefit from the cheap gas... or Not support the US and not benefit from its energy policy. Can't have it both ways!

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. The average American doesn't give a **** about any of this. They are people like you and me and they need help. That alone means Canada should help. PERIOD.

[15-20_God]

We get cheap gas here why? Because America went to the Gulf and got it for us. We're such hypocrites, criticizing the war in Iraq, letting America do all the dirty work and then filling up our SUVs acting like we deserve it.

umm, I believe Canada is a net exporter of oil.

[Samir]

umm, I believe Canada is a net exporter of oil.

Canada is indeed a net energy exporter. To the US, as required by Nafta. And it accounts for only 15% of what North America uses. Some more comes from Mexico and South America. The rest of it comes from the Persian Gulf. Which is controlled by the USA and which we are benefitting from.

Furthermore, Canada is a net importer of coal, which is probably the 2nd most valuable fossil fuel today. Where does it come from? If you said USA, you guessed right.

Get it in your head. We are totally dependent on this country for everything. They buy our oil, they give us their coal, they secure other oil for us and get the whole world angry while we act all peaceful, they defend our air space, they buy our hydroelectricity, they buy our lumber, paper, water, ice, cars, etc.

Again, none of this matters. The average American is no better or worse a person than the average Sri Lankan or Thai. We helped them out, we should help out the USA. Irrespective of its terrible president.

[Samir]

I still can't believe neilson is the voice of reason in this thread.

[guest10586]

Contrary to popular belief, gas in Canada is cheap. In Italy 1 liter of gas costs $1.50. (works out to about $5 US a gallon). In Britain, it costs about US$5,79 per gallon, which is 2.5 times what we pay.

America secured oil for its people, and now it's getting it on the cheap. Without America, we'd be paying the same price as Europe. So for us to criticize the States for their domination of the Persian Gulf and then show no compunction about willing to benefit from it, is highly hypocritical.

Either we: Support the US and benefit from the cheap gas... or Not support the US and not benefit from its energy policy. Can't have it both ways!

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. The average American doesn't give a **** about any of this. They are people like you and me and they need help. That alone means Canada should help. PERIOD.

So your saying I should thank them for invading Iraq? For oil? I use public transporation and ride my bike, I've never driven an SUV or any gas guzzling machine. I mean, my gas powered weed eater uses some gas but thanks to Katrina I might have to let it grow a bit longer. I still don't see what your arguement is.

[gman]

Contrary to popular belief, gas in Canada is cheap. In Italy 1 liter of gas costs $1.50. (works out to about $5 US a gallon). In Britain, it costs about US$5,79 per gallon, which is 2.5 times what we pay.

America secured oil for its people, and now it's getting it on the cheap. Without America, we'd be paying the same price as Europe. So for us to criticize the States for their domination of the Persian Gulf and then show no compunction about willing to benefit from it, is highly hypocritical.

Either we: Support the US and benefit from the cheap gas... or Not support the US and not benefit from its energy policy. Can't have it both ways!

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. The average American doesn't give a **** about any of this. They are people like you and me and they need help. That alone means Canada should help. PERIOD.

Just in case, you do not know. All countries get the gas for more or less the same price. The difference is how much tax is added on top of it. The gas is expensive in Europe because their government add a lot of tax on top of it. Our gas is more expensive than US because we add more tax on top of it.

[nano]

hmmm no haiti for example barely gets any help when it gets hit by a hurricane and its a 3rd world country. maybe if they didnt sent troops to iraq they would have to man power to help in this situation.

[Samir]

Just in case, you do not know. All countries get the gas for more or less the same price. The difference is how much tax is added on top of it. The gas is expensive in Europe because their government add a lot of tax on top of it. Our gas is more expensive than US because we add more tax on top of it.

Maybe in a perfect world.

[guest10586]

Maybe in a perfect world.

.... :|

gman 1
samir 0

[cko64]

What part of 15 -30,000 dead when it's all said and done don't you understand?

15,000 to 30,000 dead?

[motorcycleguy]

US has a lot of money and is capable to fix their problems. They would have even more money if they wouldn't spend 100s of millions of $$ a DAY on a useless war in Iraq.

Deeply sorry about the tragedy though,but that's all..

[Txiasaeia]

I feel terrible for all the people who have lost their lives, their homes, and their livelihoods through this natural disaster. It will take a long, long time before the area is up and running again like it was before the hurricane struck. I'm not sure that the US really needs cash to help with this problem, but I'm sure they have the thoughts and prayers of many Canadians (including myself).

Just because the US and Canada are having issues with trade disputes, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't help them when they need it most. I would do so simply because (IMO) it's the right thing to do, but for those of you who are not concerned about the US's plight, I'd like to remind you that, should something of this magnitude strike us in the future, we could definitely use the US's help.

When the US asks for help, I'll see what I can do with sending some money to the Red Cross. I'm not sure that everybody who was affected by this disaster was covered with insurance, and by the time everything gets sorted out, they are the ones who will need help the most.

[Samir]

Just because the US and Canada are having issues with trade disputes, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't help them when they need it most. I would do so simply because (IMO) it's the right thing to do, but for those of you who are not concerned about the US's plight, I'd like to remind you that, should something of this magnitude strike us in the future, we could definitely use the US's help.

When the US asks for help, I'll see what I can do with sending some money to the Red Cross. I'm not sure that everybody who was affected by this disaster was covered with insurance, and by the time everything gets sorted out, they are the ones who will need help the most.

Quoted for truth.

[JAC]

Maybe in a perfect world.

Ah, no.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0826/p01s03-woeu.html

On average, 60 percent of the price European drivers pay at the pump goes to their governments in taxes.

In Britain, the government takes 75 percent, and raises taxes by 5 percent above inflation every year (though it has forgone this year's rise in view of rocketing oil prices, and the French government has promised tax rebates this year to taxi drivers, truckers, fishermen, and others who depend heavily on gasoline.) On August 8, for example, the price of gas in the US, without taxes, would be $2.17, instead of $2.56; in Britain, it would be $1.97, instead of $6.06.

Clear enough, now?

[gh05t]

Sell them lumber at an inflated price for rebuilding all those houses maybe.

[afong56]

I still can't believe neilson is the voice of reason in this thread.

that's because he's not the voice of reason in this thread.

it has already been publicly reported that the canadian government is already prepared to come to the aid of americans, should it be needed, both financially and with manpower. the deputy pm has already publicly stated this, for the record.

so enough with this "why won't canadians help us?" nonsense. this has always been a non-issue. it is ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

if individual members of rfd have objections to supporting relief efforts, why are they not entitled to their opinion? talk about a lack of respect.

[Samir]

The thread had become about whether or not Canada should help. Since everyone was shitting on the US I wanted to point out that its not a good idea to bite the hand that feeds you.

On average, 60 percent of the price European drivers pay at the pump goes to their governments in taxes.

In Britain, the government takes 75 percent, and raises taxes by 5 percent above inflation every year (though it has forgone this year's rise in view of rocketing oil prices, and the French government has promised tax rebates this year to taxi drivers, truckers, fishermen, and others who depend heavily on gasoline.) On August 8, for example, the price of gas in the US, without taxes, would be $2.17, instead of $2.56; in Britain, it would be $1.97, instead of $6.06.

ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz.... We're in league with the Brits too. Wait till oil is really short, and US is sitting on the taps. Then you'll really notice. If you think the free market is the only determinant in oil prices you're pretty naive.

[shoprider]

Hmm... maybe this is a lesson to George Bush and the half of Americans who voted for him for a second term? You can't just screw around and piss everyone off and then come back and expect people to throw money at you when you get hit with a hurricane.

Maybe if the US were better "neighbours" in the world, the citizens of foreign countries would feel more inclined to help out.

[afong56]

Hmm... maybe this is a lesson to George Bush and the half of Americans who voted for him for a second term? You can't just screw around and piss everyone off and then come back and expect people to throw money at you when you get hit with a hurricane.

Maybe if the US were better "neighbours" in the world, the citizens of foreign countries would feel more inclined to help out.

uhm, the plight of american citizens has nothing to do with the foreign policy decisions of a president that approx. 27% of voter age americans chose.

if the american government desires aid be provided, there will undoubtedly be many countries lined up to do so, with canada at the head of the line (mostly due to geographical proximity). . .fear not, most nations can separate humanitarian causes from political policy. i seriously doubt any nation would choose this as an opportunity to inflict a 'lesson' on dubya

[NG]

America didn't do a thing for south east Asia until the world got on it's case for it.

America is the richest country on earth - they can afford to fix it themselves.

America is the one that chose to leave the poor in the diaster area while the well of were fleeing.

America is the one that allowed the airlines to stop flying a full day before it became unsafe to do so - why weren't people flown to safety before then?

America allowed US owned corporations not to send cruise ships to get people out after the diaster

America is the one who sent the majority of it's National Reserve to Iraq instead of...oh I don't know defend the nation against a national diaster.

America is the one who didn't bother to thank Canada after we allowed aircraft to land in Canada that could have been infested with terrorists - not that we should have allowed that to begin with.

America is the one who have bullied and dicked us around for years on softwood lumber, mad cow, free trade...where does it end?

America wasn't willing to use it's own wealth to evacuate all the citizens of New Orleans and the other effected areas before the diaster hit. Now they're gonna realize it's going to be alot more expensive and have alot more agony to do it after the fact - so now they're going around demanding that other countries cover the costs of their mistake.

Well they've done it by pestering countries to join Iraq so they can send their boys home.

Naked Gord out

[guest10586]

The thread had become about whether or not Canada should help. Since everyone was shitting on the US I wanted to point out that its not a good idea to bite the hand that feeds you.



ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz.... We're in league with the Brits too. Wait till oil is really short, and US is sitting on the taps. Then you'll really notice. If you think the free market is the only determinant in oil prices you're pretty naive.

... :|

everyone 1
samir 0

[sportsfan99]

In terms of man power i have not one issue if it is needed then yes we should send people down.As for cash that is something i think needs to be looked into the states is not a 3rd world if everyone send cash that will get the insurance companys off the hook.

[Feneant]

I am not personnally giving them a dime, if they need canadian money, they have already stolen plenty with the softwood sales, let them use that.

[sfu_lifer]

I am not personnally giving them a dime, if they need canadian money, they have already stolen plenty with the softwood sales, let them use that.
Hey that's true.
We'll come out looking very good by saying, we'll forgive that.
'sides, has proud GW asked for monetary aid yet?

[gilboman]

... :|

everyone 1
samir 0

LOL...

[gilboman]

maybe we should help the US like they helped in genocide worldwide. sit and say wat a tragedy and then go and eat some french fries :lol:

seriously though... maybe we can airdrop some muffin stumps :lol: :lol:

[gilboman]

Hey that's true.
We'll come out looking very good by saying, we'll forgive that.
'sides, has proud GW asked for monetary aid yet?


his advisors are still trying to explain to him what "monetary" means, because he certainly has no idea what it is from the situation the US is in after he went into power

[Emancipated]

Why would the government spend time and effort to try and stop looters who are just trying to survive?! Insurance would cover any loss any how.

Seems counter productive to me.

The pictures look pretty grim. I hope this situation, if for nothing else, shows that the US needs to take care of their own, and to have some national relief fund since these natural disasters are going to continue. Blame Global Warming, or some biblical epoch, it doesn't matter one bit to those who are dying and being affected; and waiting for their damn elected officials to help them out.

[devious9191]

OTTAWA (CP) - Trade Minister Jim Peterson says he's "disappointed" with a world trade panel ruling that favours the United States in the longrunning softwood lumber dispute.

But the minister says it won't change Ottawa's plans to keep fighting in the courts.

Peterson said Ottawa is also still considering retaliation against Washington with possible trade sanctions against U.S. exports to Canada.

In a setback to the Canadian case, the World Trade Organization has ruled that the U.S. complied with international laws in imposing billions of dollars in duties on Canadian softwood.

That interim decision, which Canada may appeal, directly contradicts a ruling earlier this month under the North American Free Trade Agreement that favoured Canada.

That panel found the U.S. duties, which now total nearly $5 billion, illegal under U.S. law.

Experts say the contradictory decisions make it likely the only way to solve the softwood dispute is through negotiations.

© The Canadian Press 2005

http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=6f1b4f33-12e3-4df8-809b-b4f9b95a6d98

As you can see, the issue with softwood lumber is farther from cut and dried than the CBC would have you believe. The US has valid concerns, and Martin trying to play the tough guy is going to hurt Canada far more than the US will.

[danfromwaterloo]

Fact of the matter is that, Canada and the US have historically always treated each other with due fairness and respect. That is, of course, until this Iraq War came about, and basically alienated the world from the US. Bush burned a LOT of bridges in doing so, and it's only compounded the problem by keeping your borders closed to several of our vital exports. I don't see the US being terribly concerned with our softwood lumber, our beef, or basically anything we send. They've ignored NAFTA laws, and are continuing to stress this already rocky relationship.

When SARS hit, or when Peterborough was completely flooded, how much AID did the US send? We'll send aid, as we Canadians always do, but we really don't expect anything but a knife in the back for all our troubles. Do you Americans really think you can spit in other countries faces then expect them to come running to help you out when you're in trouble?

[hagbard]

Crisis deepens for Crescent City

06:35 PM CDT on Tuesday, August 30, 2005

By ADAM NOSSITER / Associated Press

Helicopters dropped sandbags on two broken levees as the water kept rising in the streets. The governor drew up plans to evacuate just about everyone left in town. Looters ransacked stores. Doctors in their scrubs had to use canoes to bring supplies to blacked-out hospitals.

New Orleans sank deeper into crisis Tuesday, a full day after Hurricane Katrina hit.

"It's downtown Baghdad," said tourist Denise Bollinger, who snapped pictures of looting in the French Quarter. "It's insane."

The mayor estimated that 80 percent of New Orleans was flooded, while a countless number of residents were still stranded on rooftops.

Hospitals were running out of power and scrambling to find places to take their patients. At one clinic, broken glass littered some areas and patients and staff had fallen on floors slick with floodwaters.

"It's like being in a Third World country," said Mitch Handrich, a registered nurse manager at Charity Hospital, where nurses were ventilating patients by hand after the power and then the backup generator failed. Some 300 patients had yet to be evacuated.

"We're just trying to stay alive," Handrich said.

The historic French Quarter appeared to have been spared the worst flooding, but its stores were getting the worst of human nature.

"The looting is out of control. The French Quarter has been attacked," Councilwoman Jackie Clarkson said. "We're using exhausted, scarce police to control looting when they should be used for search and rescue while we still have people on rooftops."

As Sen. Mary Landrieu flew over the area by helicopter, a group of people smashed a window at a convenience store and jumped in.

At a drug store in the French Quarter, people were running out with grocery baskets and coolers full of soft drinks, chips and diapers. One looter shot and wounded a fellow looter, who was taken to a hospital and survived.

Rescue teams were still picking up people throughout the city Tuesday, leaving them on island-like highway overpasses and on a levee to wait to be moved again. Eventually, they will end up in the Superdome, where 15,000 to 20,000 people have taken already refuge, said Louisiana National Guard Maj. Gen. Bennett C. Landreneau. One man died in the Superdome after falling from a raised walkway.

On a grassy hill in the Carrolton neighborhood, a group of people watched the water quickly rising in the street, about a foot an hour by some estimates.

William Washington had gone to bed in dry house Monday night, well after the hurricane had passed. The water came up Tuesday after the levee broke, and by afternoon his home was flooded.

"We're trying to get to the Superdome," Washington said as he waited with neighbors. "We're waiting for the National Guard. The radio mentioned that they would pick people up."

With hundreds, if not thousands, of people still stranded in flooded homes, attics and rooftops across the city, rescue boats were bypassing the dead to reach the living, Mayor C. Ray Nagin said.

"We're not even dealing with dead bodies," Nagin said. "They're just pushing them on the side."

The hospitals' patients were slowly being evacuated -- the babies in intensive care had been flown out already -- and state officials were weighing plans to evacuate the entire city.

A few more feet of water could wipe out the entire city water system, said Terry Ebbert, the city's homeland security chief.

The intestates are impassable, the bridges may be unstable and no one knows if the buildings can withstand the damage brought by Katrina, the governor said after flying over the region.

"We saw block after block, neighborhood and neighborhood inundated," Blanco said, her voice breaking with emotion. "It's just heartbreaking."

Sean Jeffries of New Orleans had already been evacuated from one French Quarter hotel when he was ordered out of a second hotel Tuesday because of rising water.

The 37-year-old banker -- who admitted to looting some food from a nearby supermarket -- said the hotel guests were told they were being taken to a convention center, but from there, they didn't know.

"We're in the middle of a national tragedy," he said as he popped purloined grapes in his mouth. "But I know this city. We will be back. It may take awhile. But we will be back."

God's going to sink the US...what'z that tell you George?

[15-20_God]

God's going to sink the US...what'z that tell you George?

dubya made his friend gawd angry. That's why gawd sent a warning shot across the bow of Texas.

[poedua]

Fact of the matter is that, Canada and the US have historically always treated each other with due fairness and respect. That is, of course, until this Iraq War came about, and basically alienated the world from the US. Bush burned a LOT of bridges in doing so, and it's only compounded the problem by keeping your borders closed to several of our vital exports. I don't see the US being terribly concerned with our softwood lumber, our beef, or basically anything we send. They've ignored NAFTA laws, and are continuing to stress this already rocky relationship.

When SARS hit, or when Peterborough was completely flooded, how much AID did the US send? We'll send aid, as we Canadians always do, but we really don't expect anything but a knife in the back for all our troubles. Do you Americans really think you can spit in other countries faces then expect them to come running to help you out when you're in trouble?

Are you of the opinion that the U.S. could use Canada's help now - because their rescue resources may be overwhelmed based on what you've seen in the news reports ?

Or, are you saying that here is no need for assistance - they don't need us in any way ? the U.S. can handle it.

What 's your argument ? how would you complete this sentence " There is no need to send aid to the U.S. because ...?????????????? "

And, do you think, if asked , Canada would have the means ( logistical and otherwise ) to help - i.e $,food, medical , workers etc. ?

[Byrns]

Canada needs to help out the Americans. With our military declining, Toronto's going to need the Americans to come shovel snow when the next big winter "disaster" hits Toronto...

[hover42]

A short historical note... When Halifax blew up early in the 20th century, who contributed the most help? Mostly Americans. Halifax looked like a war zone when 2 ships colided in the harbour, one of which contained an explosive compound.


I hate USA politics just as much as anybody else does. Nevertheless, this crisis is affecting *people* who are just like you or me. The civil thing to do is to offer your neighbor help before he asks for it. I don't really see what we could do to help (geez their country is so filthy rich), but let them decide if we can be of help.

[danfromwaterloo]

Are you of the opinion that the U.S. could use Canada's help now - because their rescue resources may be overwhelmed based on what you've seen in the news reports ?

Or, are you saying that here is no need for assistance - they don't need us in any way ? the U.S. can handle it.

What 's your argument ? how would you complete this sentence " There is no need to send aid to the U.S. because ...?????????????? "

And, do you think, if asked , Canada would have the means ( logistical and otherwise ) to help - i.e $,food, medical , workers etc. ?

A) Their rescue resources are overwhelmed because they're in a needless war.

B) The need is there, as is undeniable. Here's a sentence for you to answer "The US has proven they are an ally in the past 5 years by ........"

When a disaster hits, we're always there to help out. I don't think we give with expectations of receiving later, but at what point do we say "Alright, seriously, you have to treat us better or we're not friends anymore" and stop aid?

I say we should help, but make it known that if trade situations do not improve, this will be the last aid the US will receive.

[danfromwaterloo]

A short historical note... When Halifax blew up early in the 20th century, who contributed the most help? Mostly Americans. Halifax looked like a war zone when 2 ships colided in the harbour, one of which contained an explosive compound.


I hate USA politics just as much as anybody else does. Nevertheless, this crisis is affecting *people* who are just like you or me. The civil thing to do is to offer your neighbor help before he asks for it. I don't really see what we could do to help (geez their country is so filthy rich), but let them decide if we can be of help.

Well, if you want to start quoting history, we were also at war with them at one time. The relations between the US and Canada, up until 5 years ago, were rock solid. Now thanks to the alienation that Washington has created, we're barely friends.

[poedua]

Canada needs to help out the Americans. With our military declining, Toronto's going to need the Americans to come shovel snow when the next big winter "disaster" hits Toronto...

Poeple can moan and complain all they want.

The fact is, we have a long standing relationship with the U.S., the very nature of which has been , and will be, one of the the biggest determinants of Canadas' wealth and prosperity ( they are our biggest trading partner )

So, like it or not, the relationship with the U.S. is going to go on for the next 300 years - and we have the power to influence the sort of relationship we want to have.

If refusing aid to the U.S. is our way of telling the U.S. how we feel about them and the sort of reltionship we want, and we think this stance serves canada's long term interest - that's fine - that's our perogative.

But let's be prepared and not surprised of what the conseqences might be, when the U.S. lets' us know how they feel , and intend to respond, in reaction to our stance.

As SHANER earlier pointed out, " The US has made their own bed and now they have to lie in it " - Canada should heed the same advice.

Whether in office politics or world politics, you treat pople tha way you'd lke to be treated .....and if you don't ...." what goes around comes around "

[15-20_God]

I still don't understand why the US needs our help other than as a token gesture. Why does "the most powerful nation in the world" as they put it need assistance from a country that didn't even help the Iraq effort?

How about some introspection from an american viewpoint? The first thing your top dog did was cut his vacation short by 2 days, even though he knew before the weekend that devastation would be likely.

Secondly, his first act of relief for the flooded citizens was to release oil from the strategic reserves to make sure the rest of america has access to cheap oil to fuel their cars.

Sure puts things in perspective.

[hover42]

Canadians (the *people*) have always been friends to American *people*. The disputes Canada has are with American *politics*, i.e. the decisions taken by their elected representatives who often do stupid (or unfair) things. Do not confuse American people with American politicians. Granted, the people elected the politicians, but keep in mind that getting an education is awfully expensive in the USA and that because of that, an awful lot of American people are not very clever or informed of the world aroud them, are very gullible, and will elect Santa Claus as president if he promises they will get bigger presents next year. It would not be an exaggeration to say that many Americans are awfully ignorant.

History will judge that moron Bush severely. In the meantime, don't forget that the typical American is a *person* that shares many things in common with the typical Canadian.

[neilson]

Canadians (the *people*) have always been friends to American *people*. The disputes Canada has are with American *politics*, i.e. the decisions taken by their elected representatives who often do stupid (or unfair) things. Do not confuse American people with American politicians. Granted, the people elected the politicians, but keep in mind that getting an education is awfully expensive in the USA and that because of that, an awful lot of American people are not very clever or informed of the world aroud them, are very gullible, and will elect Santa Claus as president if he promises they will get bigger presents next year. It would not be an exaggeration to say that many Americans are awfully ignorant.

History will judge that moron Bush severely. In the meantime, don't forget that the typical American is a *person* that shares many things in common with the typical Canadian.

Look, I could say likewise about Canadians supporting crooks from the Liberal Party for the past 13 Years and how that makes you guys look, but then you'd call that hypocritical. History will judge Jean Chretien and Paul Martin severely, but in the meantime, I haven't forgotten that the typical Canadian is a *person* that shares many things in common with the typical American.

Politics should not have a place in this discussion. Want to start another thread in those regards? Fine; go for it. But this is about a city being destroyed and a massive refugee crisis in the making.

[stealth]

I still don't understand why the US needs our help other than as a token gesture. Why does "the most powerful nation in the world" as they put it need assistance from a country that didn't even help the Iraq effort?

How about some introspection from an american viewpoint? The first thing your top dog did was cut his vacation short by 2 days, even though he knew before the weekend that devastation would be likely.

Secondly, his first act of relief for the flooded citizens was to release oil from the strategic reserves to make sure the rest of america has access to cheap oil to fuel their cars.

Sure puts things in perspective.

I agree with your points. But as to why the US likes token gestures, well its kinda like in Iraq. They didnt really want a lot of financial support for the war, because they still wanted to reap the rewards and take credit for it, but they want to send a signal to the world that they werent being renegades.
The US is sort of in a position now of saying "Sure, I got friends.....they're just.....uhhh.....all in the bathroom!". Its all about appearances. They're fighting 2 wars now, 1 in Iraq, and another in perception.

As to the prev. comment about Halifax, gimme a break! They also burned down Fort York (Toronto) and we burned down their White House. So what? When the US does you a favor, its like when the Godfather does you afavor. It aint out of charity, they'll be looking for something in return. Hence why they do nothing in cases like Rwanda, but for oil rich Saudi Arabia, dictatorships, well.....

Someone said Canada ONLY produces 15% of North America's oil....Sounds good to me, cuz thats more than our percenatge of NA's population.

And whomever said that the US saved us from oil prices by invading Iraq is on drugs. Gas prices have done NOTHING BUT ESCALATE since then. Oil prices are based on a worldwide standard for crude. And even if in some bizarro world where the US "liberates" oil from Iraq, what does it say about them or how they treat Iraqi's? Are they the worlds Robin Hood, taking from the Iraqi's and giving to the Americans to fuel their tastes for Hummers and other guzzling SUV's? Please.

[hover42]

Look, I could say likewise about Canadians supporting crooks from the Liberal Party for the past 13 Years and how that makes you guys look, but then you'd call that hypocritical. History will judge Jean Chretien and Paul Martin severely, but in the meantime, I haven't forgotten that the typical Canadian is a *person* that shares many things in common with the typical American.

Politics should not have a place in this discussion. Want to start another thread in those regards? Fine; go for it. But this is about a city being destroyed and a massive refugee crisis in the making.

You are turning this into politics. Don't go around comparing pork-barrel politics in Canada with the USA invading a sovereign country like Iraq.

My reply mentions that we should offer help unconditionally, and I stated why I think we should. I suggest you read my complete reply.

Many Canadians sadly don't give a hoot about Americans because of the acts of American politicians; denying this is ludicrous. (You would also find that this feeling is shared by an overwhelming majority of people across the world.) My point was to remind Canadians that Canada should offer help to the American people, putting politics aside.

[sportsfan99]

You are turning this into politics. Don't go around comparing pork-barrel politics in Canada with the USA invading a sovereign country like Iraq.

My reply mentions that we should offer help unconditionally, and I stated why I think we should. I suggest you read my complete reply.

Many Canadians sadly don't give a hoot about Americans because of the acts of American politicians; denying this is ludicrous. (You would also find that this feeling is shared by an overwhelming majority of people across the world.) My point was to remind Canadians that Canada should offer help to the American people, putting politics aside.

The bigger question is what american give to canada if needed very unlikely.There is alot of hate in the states towards canada.

[poedua]

A) Their rescue resources are overwhelmed because they're in a needless war.

B) The need is there, as is undeniable. Here's a sentence for you to answer "The US has proven they are an ally in the past 5 years by ........"

When a disaster hits, we're always there to help out. I don't think we give with expectations of receiving later, but at what point do we say "Alright, seriously, you have to treat us better or we're not friends anymore" and stop aid?

I say we should help, but make it known that if trade situations do not improve, this will be the last aid the US will receive.

I'm still confused on the reasoning behind your position on this.

Isn't the practice of withdrawing humanitarian aid if trade practices don't change an unnrelated realtionship ?

it's like,

- yup, the U.S deserves( needs ) to get aid - no question - they're in need and we have the ability to help

- but, because you ( the U.S. ) screwed us on trade, we may help this time , but not again ( if things doesn't change )

You claim that the U.S. does deserve need / aid BUT this claim is not longer a valid claim if we consider the evidence of the U.S.'s poor behavior toward canada.

Your argument for the rationale for not helping ( in the future ) is purely based on spite.

A feeling of ' spite ' does not count as evidence for or against a claim that they deserve aid IMHO

it would be like saying.....

BILL;: " Know what, I think we should help the U.S., they deserve it - send aid "
JOE:" Have you forgotten last year? Remember that they didn't help us in Peterborough last year- and what about lumber and mad cow ? - no help there either ."
BILL: " You're right. Canada's not going to send aid "

I just don't understand how this makes any sense as an argument.

[danfromwaterloo]

I'm still confused on the reasoning behind your position on this.

Isn't the practice of withdrawing humanitarian aid if trade practices don't change an unnrelated realtionship ?

it's like,

- yup, the U.S deserves( needs ) to get aid - no question - they're in need and we have the ability to help

- but, because you ( the U.S. ) screwed us on trade, we may help this time , but not again ( if things doesn't change )

You claim that the U.S. does deserve need / aid BUT this claim is not longer a valid claim if we consider the evidence of the U.S.'s poor behavior toward canada.

Your argument for the rationale for not helping ( in the future ) is purely based on spite.

A feeling of ' spite ' does not count as evidence for or against a claim that they deserve aid IMHO

it would be like saying.....

BILL;: " Know what, I think we should help the U.S., they deserve it - send aid "
JOE:" Have you forgotten last year? Remember that they didn't help us in Peterborough last year- and what about lumber and mad cow ? - no help there either ."
BILL: " You're right. Canada's not going to send aid "

I just don't understand how this makes any sense as an argument.

You don't see how that makes sense?

If you had a neighbour who continually abused your good will, and their porch collapsed, would you run over to help out? No way. Canada will still send aid, but where do we draw the line for how bad we're getting screwed? I'm not talking for myself - maybe we need a cattle rancher, or a lumberjack on here to illustrate to you just how devastating the trade restrictions the US have placed on them have impacted their lives and their livelihoods. We have farmers who basically went bankrupt over one mad cow.

We Canadians have no recourse over the US. We've taken them to court and won, but they still refuse to open borders to softwood. They've almost singlehandedly destroyed the Canadian beef market, they don't send aid to us, and now we're supposed to come running as if nothing has happened? The US needs to understand that when you abuse relationships with their "friends", that SOMETHING has to give.

[danfromwaterloo]

The bigger question is what american give to canada if needed very unlikely.There is alot of hate in the states towards canada.

Yeah, I agree. If ANYTHING were to happen to Canada in the way of a natural disaster, Americans would chuckle and say "Serves them right for not coming to Iraq with us."

[divx]

Spanish is closer to french in terms of verbs and how to make phrases. The bad thing about it is there is many ways to speak and write spanish words. I am not afraid that the french language would disappear, look for other things. ;)

yeah, i wish we have 1 language in the world, whichever it doesn't matter, just so we don't need to know another language.

[divx]

Did I mention that I've never heard squat about "Softwood" in the news? Jesus, I thought you guys were supposed to be allies?

Oh, and why do you keep quoting the death toll as of now?

Thousands of ppl have died so far, it's just gonna take weeks to account for the vast majority of bodies, if we can find all the bodies.

So don't try to ride off the fact that "Oh, only 80 ppl died". No, not 80 ppl. A storm like this; you're never gonna be able to know how many ppl died within the 1st 24-72 hours.

And, New Orleans Metro area is now under Martial Law, the Governor is ordering the National Guard to evacuate everyone from the area; it's gonna be a logistic nightmare to get all 60,000+ ppl out of the Superdome(Many of the hotel ppl had to shift over to the Dome because of flooding dangers), and basically:

The worst of the storm is what comes afterwards.

The Gulf Coast west of Mobile to New Orleans will never be the same again, and I for one just want compassion and respect for those suffering right now.

Not this political fighting about wood and trade and all that. Save that for another day.

perhaps if those people would smart up and evacuate like they were told, then there won't be any death

[poedua]

You don't see how that makes sense?

.


Because the reasoning for your argumnent 'not to help' is flawed.

You'd advocate that your argument makes sense - 'not to help' - by virtue of the fact Canada currently has some feelings of bitterness or spite toward the U.S.

You're exploiting current attitudes toward the U.S. to support your argument 'not to help' by advocating a needlessly spiteful or self-destructive overreaction ( canada should NOT HELP with aid, when clearly , we can provide aid if we wanted to, and as all reports suggest, aid is sorely needed asap, ) to a problem ( softwood, mad cow, Iraq , the U.S. doesn't treat us nice ,whatever, ).


Claim: Do not help

Evidence : Spite


You may think this is justified, that's fine - that's up to you - what i'm saying is, it is NOT a valid argument. You cannot use spite as evidence to support a claim and at the same time call it a valid argument.

Spite is what my kids display ( they pout and purposefully behave badly - without character . morals, etc ) when they don't get their way.

[stealth]

I'm still confused on the reasoning behind your position on this.

Isn't the practice of withdrawing humanitarian aid if trade practices don't change an unnrelated realtionship ?

it's like,

- yup, the U.S deserves( needs ) to get aid - no question - they're in need and we have the ability to help

- but, because you ( the U.S. ) screwed us on trade, we may help this time , but not again ( if things doesn't change )

You claim that the U.S. does deserve need / aid BUT this claim is not longer a valid claim if we consider the evidence of the U.S.'s poor behavior toward canada.

Your argument for the rationale for not helping ( in the future ) is purely based on spite.

A feeling of ' spite ' does not count as evidence for or against a claim that they deserve aid IMHO

it would be like saying.....

BILL;: " Know what, I think we should help the U.S., they deserve it - send aid "
JOE:" Have you forgotten last year? Remember that they didn't help us in Peterborough last year- and what about lumber and mad cow ? - no help there either ."
BILL: " You're right. Canada's not going to send aid "

I just don't understand how this makes any sense as an argument.

It actually makes perfect sense to me. If you shopped at a store that repeatedly over charged you, sold defective product, bad service, etc., then you heard the owner was going bankrupt, would you send him money? Think about it. We reap what we sow. Good deeds yield good deeds. Karma. Golden rule. Call it what you will.

But my biggest point is that it is not a given that they DESERVE aid, purely as a result of the tragedy. I believe that aid should be given once their own supplies/resources have been depleted. Until then, I think it is their problem to sort out for themselves. Hence why we donate money to Tsunami victims, not to Martha Stewart or Michael Jacksons defense fund, even though we may sympathize with their situations. Same reason I dont give money to junkies. So they can use it to buy alcohol? Same reasoning. Send our hard earned money to the US 9when we have out of work lumber workers, fishermen, etc) so they dont have to cut back on their budget for war or space exploration? Thats BS.
I'm tired of this concept that sending money fixes everything anyways. Sickens me that our culture is so money based.

All that being said if the US NEEDS aid, we should help out. But need must be proven first.

[divx]

Wow!!!

Canadians can be such snobs sometimes. Hello, we are totally dependent on this country down south for all our business!!! Sure Americans can be isolated, arrogant without any reason to be, inward looking and generally ignorant but the fact is Canada is what it is today because of the USA.

Money isnt going to help ****. Seriously, whatever Canada would give is a drop in the ocean. What they need down there is emergency workers. When the WTC collapsed, tons of steel workers from Quebec and Ontario went down to NYC to help clean ground zero.

Manpower for clean up, for supporting the people, rescue operations, etc. Hopefully some Canadians will go.


That's how rfd member feel, sending $$$ to them would be insulting them. But lending them a hand is fine. And try not insult the states as they are some third world country. They have experience dealing with storms, as well as manpower, money and time.

people should evacuate when they are told and the property damage will be covered by insurance. so what's the problem?

and why is everyone getting trapped in some dome? what is the superdome anyway? guess they didn't evacuate far enough, what's stopping them from driving their car (or other method of transportation) up north? since it didn't happen overnight or un-noticed, it's not hard to evacuate, even the entire city.

[divx]

How about letting Canada free-ride on America's economy for 100 years? That has to be worth something.

We get cheap gas here why? Because America went to the Gulf and got it for us. We're such hypocrites, criticizing the war in Iraq, letting America do all the dirty work and then filling up our SUVs acting like we deserve it.

really? i thought the states gets cheaper gas then us. if they get gas for us, how come we get cheaper gas than them? oh, and don't act like they gave us free gas, more like they sold to us, which is part of the business. They steal us from the middle east and sell some to us, that's good business. And we did help them in that matter, so it all works out.

[divx]

Contrary to popular belief, gas in Canada is cheap. In Italy 1 liter of gas costs $1.50. (works out to about $5 US a gallon). In Britain, it costs about US$5,79 per gallon, which is 2.5 times what we pay.

America secured oil for its people, and now it's getting it on the cheap. Without America, we'd be paying the same price as Europe. So for us to criticize the States for their domination of the Persian Gulf and then show no compunction about willing to benefit from it, is highly hypocritical.

Either we: Support the US and benefit from the cheap gas... or Not support the US and not benefit from its energy policy. Can't have it both ways!

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. The average American doesn't give a **** about any of this. They are people like you and me and they need help. That alone means Canada should help. PERIOD.


so you support the iraq war? tens of thousands died can all be justified by the cheap oil price we pay here, is that what you are trying to say? they rob people of oil and causing problem everywhere can all be jusified by oil? well then the states might as well attack us and steal all the lumber, beef and whatever they might find here.

[divx]

Get it in your head. We are totally dependent on this country for everything. They buy our oil, they give us their coal, they secure other oil for us and get the whole world angry while we act all peaceful, they defend our air space, they buy our hydroelectricity, they buy our lumber, paper, water, ice, cars, etc.



they actually buy water from us? but we share the great lakes, they can just watered it up there for free. and who the hell buys ice, they can make that on their own.

I heard japanese made cars, american cars, but never canadian cars. Does canada actually make canadian brand cars? which company and model is that?


Again, none of this matters. The average American is no better or worse a person than the average Sri Lankan or Thai. We helped them out, we should help out the USA. Irrespective of its terrible president.

I concer, if they ask for help, they will get it. If they can handle it on their own, that's fine too.

[sportsfan99]

they actually buy water from us? but we share the great lakes, they can just watered it up there for free. and who the hell buys ice, they can make that on their own.

I heard japanese made cars, american cars, but never canadian cars. Does canada actually make canadian brand cars? which company and model is that?



I concer, if they ask for help, they will get it. If they can handle it on their own, that's fine too.

Again you can not compare 3rd world area to the states.The states have plans in place for this type of things.

[poedua]

. We reap what we sow. Good deeds yield good deeds

Best rationale i've heard for helping the U.S. so far ....." Good deeds yield good deeds."

Well said

[afong56]

proof that this entire thread was pointless:

canada will send aid (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1125526231608&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes)

the premise for the original post was flawed, as i have written repeatedly, since canada, from the beginning, was going to aid the u.s.

please lock this ridiculous thread.

[bmwguy]

Canada shouldn't send a dime. They have enough money in their country. Also, watching TV about how pathetic these people are with looting everything is pathetic. You never saw as many of these kind of reports with the Tsunami, etc. I feel bad for the good people who lost everything, and I hope they get everything back together.

[blahraptors]

surely if the US has enough money for all the wars, they have enough money to rebuild a city. the states should have more than enough to help themselves. canada shouldn't help the US financially in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER, although i do support sending ppl and teams there to help (u can't buy humanpower). anywayz i feel deeply sorry for the ppl of new orleans.. watching the footage on tv will make anyone sympathize

[neilson]

proof that this entire thread was pointless:

canada will send aid (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1125526231608&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes)

the premise for the original post was flawed, as i have written repeatedly, since canada, from the beginning, was going to aid the u.s.

please lock this ridiculous thread.

CANADA, THANK YOU FOR THE SHOW OF GOODWILL.

This alone is all I wanted to see, an offering.

If we accept it, great.

But that you guys offered, well I highly respect and appreciate it!

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

[devious9191]

CANADA, THANK YOU FOR THE SHOW OF GOODWILL.

This alone is all I wanted to see, an offering.

If we accept it, great.

But that you guys offered, well I highly respect and appreciate it!

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

ooo. I wouldn't be thanking RFD too hard, I'm sure that there were some people on here that were cheering on the hurricane.

[poedua]

CANADA, THANK YOU FOR THE SHOW OF GOODWILL.

This alone is all I wanted to see, an offering.

If we accept it, great.

But that you guys offered, well I highly respect and appreciate it!

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

This is a copy of an editorial that some other ( older ) RFDers may remember. It was read on CFRB radio in Toronto in 1973 by the late Gordon Sinclair. The references are a bit dated to the 70's and World War 2, before the Airbus etc.,but the theme of the message is the same now as it was them - stop dumping on the U.S. !

Some Canadians, like myself , get awfully 'fed up' with people crapping on Americans. American make mistakes like all countries do, but if i had to pick a country as our closest ally - I'd take the U.S. - hands down.



America: The Good Neighbor.

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most
generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out
of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying
even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who
propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in
to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about
the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those
countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar
build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to
equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas 10? If
so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except
Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk
about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store
window for everybody to look at . Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued
and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they
are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at
home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through
age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad
and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other
people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble?

I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake. Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."

Stand proud, Americans !

[stealth]

Its a little known fact that Gordon Sinclair had a vagina.


Seriously, he makes some good points, albeit highly unbalanced in order to make his point. But we didnt live in his times and he isnt living in ours. The world is a different place now than in '56. He probably also believed that Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK.

[HammerJoe]

I dont know what this fuss is all about???

We are all involantarily donating money to the "cause" everytime we fill our cars and its going to be for a long time.

20cents/liter is a huge amount for charity...

[poedua]

Its a little known fact that Gordon Sinclair had a vagina.


Seriously, he makes some good points, albeit highly unbalanced in order to make his point. But we didnt live in his times and he isnt living in ours. The world is a different place now than in '56. He probably also believed that Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK.


" Its a little known fact that Gordon Sinclair had a vagina."

Why would you say something so demeaning like that about such a well loved Canadian ?



I complelely disagree with your point that it is highly unbalanced in order to make his point and we didnt live in his times and he isnt living in ours

On your first point. Its no more unbalanced than all the examples that have been provided in this thread for why America is not an upstanding world citizen and not worthy of our of aid. It's simply an opposing view, with facts to back it up.

The U.S. is the most benevolent, yet the most despised, nation in the world. The U.S. can spend trillions abroad on disaster relief, but no one helps America when they're the victims of a natural disaster like Katrina - their worst in the past century.

U.S. aid abroad becomes expected of them and taken for granted. Yet, if hurricanes strike Florida or the Gulf coast , leaving thousands or even a million homeless, some Canadian RFDers and other countries say 'do nothing ' Some go a step further, some countries not only didn't give the U.S. aid after 9-11, but issued congratulatory statements to the perpetrators.



On your second point. A message like that is always relevant - whether in his time or in our time. Well chosen words can be very inspirational, regardless of when they're spoken or re-read. For example,

Lincoln and the Gettysburg Address - 1863
JKK Inaugaral " Ask Not " Speech -1961
Martin luther King " I Have a Dream " speech - 1963
Rondld Reagan's " Tear Down This Wall " speech - 1987

and others.

Praising the accomplishments of the U.S. is a wonderful inspiration for a country that is ,today, dealing with the worst natural disaster in it's history. It's a reminder to foreign critics like Canada as well as critics within the U.S. who forgot the U.S.'s many great achievements.

The people of the U.S. are the most kind-hearted, generous people imaginable in the world. Gordon Sinclair simply reminded Americans to take pride in nation's fundamental values that fostered such a ' generous' culture.

And as the U.S. struggles to overcome the tragedy that is Katrina, it's something we should be remineded of too.

[Montague]

but no one helps America when they're the victims of a natural disaster like Katrina - their worst in the past century.

Uh which countries?

The Canadian Red Cross has already been contacted about sending personnell and is mobolizing for example.

Also:

"Countries such as France, Germany, Russia and even US critic Venezuela have volunteered assistance, but Bush said: "I'm not expecting much from foreign nations because we haven't asked for it."

From:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050901/pl_afp/usweatherbush_050901131320;_ylt=AsXgxjFCROTGHhbVRE DHHMhH2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTA2ZGZwam4yBHNlYwNmYw--

You extrapolate a few RFDers who said dun help to mean ALL RFDers? :?:

You forgetting the really TASTELESS song a US East Coast radio station made of the tsunami in the south pacific [by using such words as chin*man" etc]?

Does that mean all Americans are like that?

Of course not so dun assume the clear majority would not want to send any aid.

The only purpose of this thread is the bait that point is very clear.

Other than that I generally agree with alot of what you said.

[danfromwaterloo]

" Its a little known fact that Gordon Sinclair had a vagina."

Why would you say something so demeaning like that about such a well loved Canadian ?

I complelely disagree with your point that it is highly unbalanced in order to make his point and we didnt live in his times and he isnt living in ours

On your first point. Its no more unbalanced than all the examples that have been provided in this thread for why America is not an upstanding world citizen and not worthy of our of aid. It's simply an opposing view, with facts to back it up.

The U.S. is the most benevolent, yet the most despised, nation in the world. The U.S. can spend trillions abroad on disaster relief, but no one helps America when they're the victims of a natural disaster like Katrina - their worst in the past century.

U.S. aid abroad becomes expected of them and taken for granted. Yet, if hurricanes strike Florida or the Gulf coast , leaving thousands or even a million homeless, some Canadian RFDers and other countries say 'do nothing ' Some go a step further, some countries not only didn't give the U.S. aid after 9-11, but issued congratulatory statements to the perpetrators.



On your second point. A message like that is always relevant - whether in his time or in our time. Well chosen words can be very inspirational, regardless of when they're spoken or re-read. For example,

Lincoln and the Gettysburg Address - 1863
JKK Inaugaral " Ask Not " Speech -1961
Martin luther King " I Have a Dream " speech - 1963
Rondld Reagan's " Tear Down This Wall " speech - 1987

and others.

Praising the accomplishments of the U.S. is a wonderful inspiration for a country that is ,today, dealing with the worst natural disaster in it's history. It's a reminder to foreign critics like Canada as well as critics within the U.S. who forgot the U.S.'s many great achievements.

The people of the U.S. are the most kind-hearted, generous people imaginable in the world. Gordon Sinclair simply reminded Americans to take pride in nation's fundamental values that fostered such a ' generous' culture.

And as the U.S. struggles to overcome the tragedy that is Katrina, it's something we should be remineded of too.

Unfortunately, the US of even 10 years ago, and the US of today are RADICALLY different countries. 10 years ago, the US was a free and just country where there was liberty for all. NOW, Christian fundamentalists are turning the entire country into a bible-based state, and fear-mongerers are removing everybody's rights in the name of security. Republicans in office are starting wars based on the fear-mongerers predictions of death and destruction, and as a result, alienating every country they allied themselves with. This is not the US of old.

[divx]

it's alright, sending aids this time and hopefully they will thank Canada. And if they don't, then they deserve to get owned by the next storm.

[poedua]

Unfortunately, the US of even 10 years ago, and the US of today are RADICALLY different countries. 10 years ago, the US was a free and just country where there was liberty for all. .

This editorial was from 30 years ago not 10 - but that's besides the point.

And despite what you may think, it wasn't a ' bed of roses ' - " free and just country where there was liberty for all " - for U.S. society back then either. They had just as much stress facing them as the U.S. society faces today. The citizens of the U.S. in the seventies had, in fact, grown weary and disillusioned. They had high unemployment, runaway inflation, and an energy crisis to contend with.

In fact the entire United States was struggling with how it should be governed, and how its economy should be managed. The government shot it's own citizens at Kent State. First, a Vice President and then a President resigned under threat of impeachment. Crime increased despite Nixon's pledge to make law and order a top priority of his presidency. Roe v. Wade legalized abortion - this actually gave birth to what we see, and what you mentioned today - the rise of politically conservative religious organizations and activists. On top of that, women, minorities, and gays increasingly demanded full legal equality and privileges in society and gave birth to “rights revolution in the U.S.

So, I'd submit that those issues you cited - fear, alienation, death and worldwide scrorn - were equally present when this editorial was read, and therefore, it's theme, is just as relevant today as it was then.

[poedua]

Uh which countries?.....You extrapolate a few RFDers who said dun help to mean ALL RFDers? :?: .

My comments were directed to the fact that there is not the historical legacy of aiding sticken countires that the U.S. has shown in the past century, versus the track record of the world helping the U.S. - Katrina seems to be a welcome exception, - and I am well aware aid has been offered and was aware of it when I provided Sinclairs' editorial.

If you read my comment, I said ... " some Canadian RFDers ".
Simply a statement of fact.

You are interpreting it as " extrapolate a few RFDers who said dun help to mean ALL RFDers " - that's a misreprentation of the intent of my comment - I meant some ( just as it reads ) not all, RFDrers. I'm also well aware that there were posts on this thread that advocated not to help at all - not the majority, I'm quite aware of that. But there were more than just one or 2 who would be quite happy if Canada stood back and did nothing.


You forgetting the really TASTELESS song a US East Coast radio station made of the tsunami in the south pacific [by using such words as chin*man" etc]?

Does that mean all Americans are like that?.

I don't know the song - iI suspect it's someone opinion or parody or poor radio entertainment - it means nothing more than that. If you want to know what it was 'intended' to mean, I can't read the station's mind - I suggest you contact the radio station if you want o know.

Of course not so dun assume the clear majority would not want to send any aid.?.

I made so assumption aid would not arrvive in this case

[stealth]

"" Its a little known fact that Gordon Sinclair had a vagina."

Why would you say something so demeaning like that about such a well loved Canadian ?"

Ummm....cuz its a joke. Remember those?
And also because his write up portrays such a one-sided fairy tale, that all the ass-kissing loses the credibility of his main point, which actually does have some validity. But sugar coating it the way he did smacks of propaganda.
I frankly dont care if Gordon Sinclair was beloved or not. I'll agree or disagree with his points based on his reasoning not on his popularity.
Even if the US is still basically the same country it was 30 yrs ago (which I obviously dont believe it is), there is one big difference. People today now are aware of most of their countries indiscretions, whereas 30or more yrs ago, people had a much more naive, eyes closed view of their own government/country. People did not question as much and some people actually grew up believing they could trust their politicians and government. It is not the same today. The media is not as controlled as it was even 10 yrs ago (before the internet).

As to your message about noone helping out the US when they help out others, again, look up stats on US aid on a per capita basis as well as which situations they do/dont help out in and you may want to re-evaluate the strength of your argument. Additionally, the reason these other countries arent reciprocating is they arent out of the hole yet. You think Asia has recovered from the Tsunami? How about all those millions of $ Ethiopians must be rolling around in? Face it, the US on a bad day are many times wealthier than almost every other country. other than the few countries regimes that the US has propped up, there arent too many out there that could/should offer more than a token gesture. Chill out, this isnt about emotion, its about money, which the US has tons of, its up to them to open up their wallets, not panhandle. Is Canadian dollars going to stop people from shooting at rescue helicopters???? I just dont understand the logic of throwing money at everything hoping it will make things go away. Empty out Fort Knox or whatever first, then I will consider sending money. International Charity is not meant to elevate or maintain a standard of living so eavery citizen can own a cell phone, an Ipod or a plasma TV, its to ensure survival when all other resources are tapped.
The help we can provide will be of more value to them at the rebuilding stage.

[danfromwaterloo]

This editorial was from 30 years ago not 10 - but that's besides the point.

And despite what you may think, it wasn't a ' bed of roses ' - " free and just country where there was liberty for all " - for U.S. society back then either. They had just as much stress facing them as the U.S. society faces today. The citizens of the U.S. in the seventies had, in fact, grown weary and disillusioned. They had high unemployment, runaway inflation, and an energy crisis to contend with.

In fact the entire United States was struggling with how it should be governed, and how its economy should be managed. The government shot it's own citizens at Kent State. First, a Vice President and then a President resigned under threat of impeachment. Crime increased despite Nixon's pledge to make law and order a top priority of his presidency. Roe v. Wade legalized abortion - this actually gave birth to what we see, and what you mentioned today - the rise of politically conservative religious organizations and activists. On top of that, women, minorities, and gays increasingly demanded full legal equality and privileges in society and gave birth to “rights revolution in the U.S.

So, I'd submit that those issues you cited - fear, alienation, death and worldwide scrorn - were equally present when this editorial was read, and therefore, it's theme, is just as relevant today as it was then.

So, wait a second, you're going to sit there and tell me in one paragraph that the US was dealing with heaploads of sh*t, then you're going to turn around and tell me that Gordon Sinclair thought at the time that it should smell like roses?

Sorry, during the Vietnam era, AND during the current Bush era, the US has turned into an absolute wasteland of politicising, fear mongering, and religious bias. I used to look up to the US as being the strong, free country that it should damn well be. But the country it is today is the worst its EVER been since the civil war. Half the country is controlled from the pulpit, and the other half is controlled by fear. Both halves believe that if they don't do something they're gonna burn - either today or after they die. Bush needs to get those troops out of Iraq by Christmas, he needs to recind the Patriot act, and he needs to worry about collecting the country into one common cohesive unit. "What we need is a uniter, not a divider" What they have now is the worst divider the country has ever seen.

[wali]

First of all most of the people in New Orleans are too busy looting and taking potshots at the choppers ( :-0 ) to care for rescue... lets say a Canadian goes to new Orleans for help.

Joe Canadian: Hello, I'm Joe Canadian, and I'm here to help you my fellow neighbour.

Some guy in new Orleans: Watch ya wan whyteboy, take out that watch or i'll shoot you mutaf.... a...
''''

seriously, US is the richest and most advanced nation, a hyper-power so they better take of their own people. This is nature's war on America and Bush better pray to Jesus for some "guidance".

I feel sorry for those people affected by Katrina, but after all its "South", the ground zero for racism and American stupidity, so its really hard to feel sorry.

btw, why don't you ask for help from France ;).

[devious9191]

First of all most of the people in New Orleans are too busy looting and taking potshots at the choppers ( :-0 ) to care for rescue... lets say a Canadian goes to new Orleans for help.

Joe Canadian: Hello, I'm Joe Canadian, and I'm here to help you my fellow neighbour.

Some guy in new Orleans: Watch ya wan whyteboy, take out that watch or i'll shoot you mutaf.... a...
''''

seriously, US is the richest and most advanced nation, a hyper-power so they better take of their own people. This is nature's war on America and Bush better pray to Jesus for some "guidance".

I feel sorry for those people affected by Katrina, but after all its "South", the ground zero for racism and American stupidity, so its really hard to feel sorry.

btw, why don't you ask for help from France ;).

That seems a little bit inappropriate/ignorant.

[danfromwaterloo]

THIS JUST IN:

Bush labels God a terrorist and vows to God "I will smite thee"

[poedua]

"" Its a little known fact that Gordon Sinclair had a vagina."

Why would you say something so demeaning like that about such a well loved Canadian ?"

Ummm....cuz its a joke.

Could have fooled me ...there's nothing funny about it .


"" I frankly dont care if Gordon Sinclair was beloved or not. I'll agree or disagree with his points based on his reasoning not on his popularity.

Express your opinions on the meits of the points he ( beloved or not ) makes in his argument - by all means - that's the essence of debate. All I'm saying is keep the focus of your commnetary on his argument - there's no need to have to resort to taking disparaging shots at his character or image ( i.e Gordon Sinclair had a vagina ) jut because you have happen to disargee with him.


"" Even if the US is still basically the same country it was 30 yrs ago (which I obviously dont believe it is), there is one big difference..

I said they had the some same stress and the same issues facing them today as they did then - that doesn't automtically mean it's the same country - that's not my assessment in the least.

"" People today now are aware of most of their countries indiscretions, whereas 30or more yrs ago, people had a much more naive, eyes closed view of their own government/country.People did not question as much and some people actually grew up believing they could trust their politicians and government...

If they closed their eyes to what was happening to their country at the hands of the government then none of these would happened..


a stronger media - media becames more confident and aggressive in the 70's .Watergate was unravelled by the Washington Post reporters,Woodward and Bernstein. Their work led to the development of teams of "investigative" reporters on newspapers around the world that we see today - looking for dirt and corruption - it started in the 70's - how is this closing your eyes and not questioning ?

a rebellious youth - a general alienation from mainstream America took place in the 70's , not just disillusionment with politics - it gave birth to the anti -war movement against Vietnam - it gave birth to Woodstock, drug culture and yippes etc. and hopes that a ' new generation' ( where the term came from ) had emerged,- how is that closing your eyes ? not questioning ?

the envrionment - the 70's gave way to new grassroots environmental movements , with the media , exposing fiascos like the Love Canal and Hooker Chemical - in fact Earth Day underscores how environmentalism came in to the mainstream the 70's - how is that closing your eyes ? not questioning ?

"" As to your message about noone helping out the US when they help out others, again, look up stats on US aid on a per capita basis as well as which situations they do/dont help out in and you may want to re-evaluate the strength of your argument....

No need to re-evaluate, nothing presented so far hass changed my mind - I'm quite comfortable with my argument.


"" Additionally, the reason these other countries arent reciprocating is they arent out of the hole yet. ....

Sorry ..what hole is France, Germany, Sweden , Japan, Italy etc. in ?

"" etc, You think Asia has recovered from the Tsunami? How about all those millions of $ Ethiopians must be rolling around in? ....

Why would i think Asia has recovered, it will take years. fair enuf - Ethiopia can take a pass - I clearly had Ethiopia in mind when I said 'other countries' - there, a joke of my own.

"" Canadian dollars going to stop people from shooting at rescue helicopters???? I just dont understand the logic of throwing money at everything hoping it will make things go away. Empty out Fort Knox or whatever first, then I will consider sending money. International Charity is not meant to elevate or maintain a standard of living so eavery citizen can own a cell phone, an Ipod or a plasma TV, its to ensure survival when all other resources are tapped.
.

See the underline(s) ?

Tell the Red Cross not to keep asking for donations of money if you feel that way.

Perhaps the Red Cross has a different definitions of ' standard of living ' than you do - a more basic one - survival- one that involves basic food, water, shelter and medicine.

Why you would advocate Canada and it's citizens to NOT send money to the Red Cross for them to do their good work is beyond me.

[NG]

perhaps if those people would smart up and evacuate like they were told, then there won't be any death

That's easy to say except that pretty much everybody left was too poor to be able to afford to leave. There was no governmental supported evacuation. No busses, no trains, no planes.

The Bush regime left the poor to die and now they're puzzled that they're dying in the steets.

[devious9191]

That's easy to say except that pretty much everybody left was too poor to be able to afford to leave. There was no governmental supported evacuation. No busses, no trains, no planes.

The Bush regime left the poor to die and now they're puzzled that they're dying in the steets.

Well, the airport was closed obviously. Busses were used to fairy people to shelters (superdome). The roads were jammed pack, and it makes far more sense to bring people to a shelter than it does to try and organize a bus evacuation out of the city for 30,000 people (they would need 600 busses!), and they only had a few days notice. I think they did fairly well, all considered. They're bringing supplies and soldiers in as fast as they can now, and what more can they do? There's no way they could have started a mass evacuation of the city for those that didn't have the means, in a coupe of days.

[NG]

I don't see the US being terribly concerned with our softwood lumber, our beef, or basically anything we send. They've ignored NAFTA laws, and are continuing to stress this already rocky relationship.

Agreed. If this continues more and more Canadians will reconsider how benificial NAFTA actually is to Canada. Even our ambassador to the US Frank McKenna has said he and other architects of the original free trade agreement with the U.S. would have been very reluctant to sign on if they thought those rules would be ignored. (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1125314846409_27/?hub=CTVNewsAt11).


When SARS hit, or when Peterborough was completely flooded, how much AID did the US send?

I think, iirc, all the US did was send a travel advisory against US citizens going to Toronto.

[poedua]

Well, the airport was closed obviously. Busses were used to fairy people to shelters (superdome). The roads were jammed pack, and it makes far more sense to bring people to a shelter than it does to try and organize a bus evacuation out of the city for 30,000 people (they would need 600 busses!), and they only had a few days notice. I think they did fairly well, all considered. They're bringing supplies and soldiers in as fast as they can now, and what more can they do? There's no way they could have started a mass evacuation of the city for those that didn't have the means, in a coupe of days.

Number I heard was 30,000 people live below the poverty line in New Orleans

[NG]

Well, the airport was closed obviously. Busses were used to fairy people to shelters (superdome). The roads were jammed pack, and it makes far more sense to bring people to a shelter than it does to try and organize a bus evacuation out of the city for 30,000 people (they would need 600 busses!), and they only had a few days notice. I think they did fairly well, all considered. They're bringing supplies and soldiers in as fast as they can now, and what more can they do? There's no way they could have started a mass evacuation of the city for those that didn't have the means, in a coupe of days.

They could have haid air craft carriers, commercial planes or any number of other things to evacuate the poor out of New Orleans. At the very least they could have provided vouchers to get out of town.

Your support of the US not even starting to send troops till Thursday while people have been dying on the streets for the last three days reeks of passive genocide.

Look at the photos on CNN. It's like a negative of a Republician National Convention. One white guy mixed in with dozens of blacks. These people were left to die because Bush couldn't give a **** about the poor. He's only pretending to care now b/c news channels like CNN have had the balls to send the images of the death to the rest of the world.

Look at the Republican led congress now. They were there at the drop of a hat on Sunday evening for Terry Shirvro to pass that bill to stop her feeding tube from being removed but it's three days later and they still can't get everyone there to pass an emerg bill for FEMA.

[Rosico]

Canada could at least send in their Disaster Assistance Response Team. That is what it is there for.

And when the ice storm did hit Canada there was a reponse in manpower by neighbouring states. Their power workers were working alongside ours for weeks.

Ask yourself, If we had a flood of this porportion, say in Toronto, Montreal or Vancover, what would your expectations be? Mine would be 'help us now and we'll deal with softwood next month'

[devious9191]

They could have haid air craft carriers, commercial planes or any number of other things to evacuate the poor out of New Orleans. At the very least they could have provided vouchers to get out of town.

Your support of the US not even starting to send troops till Thursday while people have been dying on the streets for the last three days reeks of passive genocide.

Look at the photos on CNN. It's like a negative of a Republician National Convention. One white guy mixed in with dozens of blacks. These people were left to die because Bush couldn't give a **** about the poor. He's only pretending to care now b/c news channels like CNN have had the balls to send the images of the death to the rest of the world.

Look at the Republican led congress now. They were there at the drop of a hat on Sunday evening for Terry Shirvro to pass that bill to stop her feeding tube from being removed but it's three days later and they still can't get everyone there to pass an emerg bill for FEMA.

That just isn't true. You expect them to set up an aircraft carrier in the middle of the gulf with a hurricane expected the next day? Be serious.

Give them vouchers for what exactly? Do you think that the greyhound was making trips with half their seats empty? The airport stayed open as long as it could, and I highly doubt that they could have fit any more aircraft on the runways than they did.

Before this thing even hit, they had 10,000 troops in Memphis prepared and ready to go, with a contingency plan to bring in the number of troops that they are sending in now (about 30k). It takes a little bit of time to get that many guys together and ship them, while having them properly equipped, as I'm sure you know.

And the emergency bill for FEMA was passed on Saturday for Louisiana, and Sunday for Alabama and Mississippi.

[NG]

Canada could at least send in their Disaster Assistance Response Team. That is what it is there for.

And when the ice storm did hit Canada there was a reponse in manpower by neighbouring states. Their power workers were working alongside ours for weeks.

Ask yourself, If we had a flood of this porportion, say in Toronto, Montreal or Vancover, what would your expectations be? Mine would be 'help us now and we'll deal with softwood next month'


We've already offered help. The US has not taken Canada up on it. You see Bush wants them to die. He expected them to die Monday but now that the camera's on on them suffering in the streets he has to pretend like he wants to do something. It's almost all African Americans who are living in that hell. Almost all African American's vote Democratic. He's helping his base by reducing the votes for the other side.

He wants them dead.

[Hellfire]

Martin was just here in Edmonton a few hours ago. He told us that he just spoke to Bush this morning and offered any assistance they requested.

[deity_me]

Why send aid to a country that is obviously one of the richest country in the world. They can handle this thing themselves - they just need to work a bit harder. They dont need hand outs. They just need to rearrange their priorities.
I'd never give aid to Americans considering their version of help to other countries.

[wali]

The level of disorganization and utter incompetence of US Gov facing a natural calamity is astonishing. just switch to cnn and see the situation developing in new Orleans.

[NG]

That just isn't true. You expect them to set up an aircraft carrier in the middle of the gulf with a hurricane expected the next day? Be serious.

I expect them to do a hell of alot more than they did. All that was done was to heard the poor like cattle into the football stadium.

Give them vouchers for what exactly? Do you think that the greyhound was making trips with half their seats empty? The airport stayed open as long as it could, and I highly doubt that they could have fit any more aircraft on the runways than they did.

The airline were allowed to stop flying Sunday. Even the governor of LA was questioning that on CNN's Larry King tuesay.

What about sending it millitary planes used to transport vechicles. One of those could have held hundreds per load. All they would have had to do is take a short trip to Texas or whereever to drop them off - then back again.


And the emergency bill for FEMA was passed on Saturday for Louisiana, and Sunday for Alabama and Mississippi.

White House seeks $10 billion in emergency funding for hurricane response (http://www.govexec.com/story_page.cfm?articleid=32141&dcn=todaysnews)

They're asking for more. But can't get the reps to DC to vote on it.

Then there is the cuts Bush has already done.
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/21af58dc-1b1c-11da-a117-00000e2511c8.html
The administration and the Republican-controlled House of Representatives pushed this year for the largest ever cut to funding for hurricane protection and flood control in Louisiana, a stance that is likely to draw fresh criticism after the catastrophic flooding caused by Hurricane Katrina.

This dispite in 2001, the Federal Emergency Management Agency concluded that a catastrophic hurricane in New Orleans was "among the three likeliest … disasters facing this country." Source (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/la-na-fema1sep01,1,7749651.story?coll=la-news-politics-national&ctrack=1&cset=true)

This was a genocide by Bush based on race and hedging his bets that those who had the means to flee would be Bush supporters. Those who could not afford to do so were not Bush supporters to begin with.

[poedua]

They could have haid air craft carriers, commercial planes or any number of other things to evacuate the poor out of New Orleans. At the very least they could have provided vouchers to get out of town. .

People who do not heed a "mandatory evacuation" order must understand that Public Safety personnel may not be available. Utilities may not be available for extended periods of time and high winds and water could isolate people for extended periods of time.

People will not be arrested if they don't evacuate.

If people ask for assistance in leaving, law enforcement will make every attempt to move people that are in areas that are likely to be most effected by the storm. Most people leave voluntarily. Arrangements such as the availability of shelters are made known to the public but arrangements are not setup to evacuate people unless requested.

Remember that the evacuation order did not come until Sunday - about 24 hours before the storm hit. Are you saying the ships trops etc, should have shipped out well before the storm hit ?

Also what would air craft carriers have done exactly - serve as hotels ?

And where would they have come from - San diego ? East coast ? isn't it about 4/ 5 sailing days to get there plus prep time before sailing ? The fleet would have sailed 3/4 days before an evacuation order was issued ?


Your support of the US not even starting to send troops till Thursday while people have been dying on the streets for the last three days reeks of passive genocide.

Aren't you meaning a different term than genocide i.e gross negligence ?

Genocide is a pre-meditated campaign to murder - " passive genocide ' on who's part exactly City of NO ? Governor ? Feds ? FEMA ? All of them ?

And who is the target of the ' genocide ' - the poor ? the black population?

The NO city government, almost all come from the black population- why would they be party to a plan of genocide when the population of NO is about 67% black ?

Why would blacks want to engage in genocide against blacks ?>

So you must mean the poor were the target ? Or was it a Bush plan that was concocted wihtout the knowledge of the city of NO or the state or both ?


These people were left to die because Bush couldn't give a **** about the poor..

Presumably so did the City of NO and the State and FEMA - not give a ******** I mean - wouldn't you agree ?

He's only pretending to care now b/c news channels like CNN have had the balls to send the images of the death to the rest of the world...

So you're saying Bush would'nt have done a thing if it hadn't been on TV ?

[NG]

New Orleans official criticizes FEMA
Last Updated Thu, 01 Sep 2005 14:22:27 EDT
CBC News

The head of New Orleans emergency measures office has criticized the U.S. Federal Emergency Management Agency for indaquate response to the Hurricane Katrina disaster.

Terry Ebbert says it's a national disgrace. He says FEMA has been in the city for three days, yet there is no command and control.

Ebbert says the U.S. can send massive amounts of aid to tsunami victims in Asia but can't bail out the city of New Orleans. He says the city has a mayor who has been pushing and asking but not getting supplies.

He says the evacuation is almost entirely a Louisiana operation. At the Superdome Wednesday morning, Ebbert said he hasn't seen "a single FEMA guy."

One hundred buses were due to arrive at the Superdome at 6 a.m., but the first buses of the morning didn't get there until more than three-and-a-half hours later.

Ebbert -- local co-ordinator of the Office of Homeland Security in New Orleans -- says the evacuee numbers have slowed because of the lack of civil authority in Louisiana.

The mayor of New Orleans has issued a "desperite SOS" according to CNN. Yet he's gettnig nothing. I'm sure the fact that the majority of New Orleans is black has nothing to do with it.

Bush wanted them dead. Bush wants them dead. Well more to the point he didn't think before the diaster hit it was worth the money to save them and now that it's wall to wall on the news he has to make it look like something is being done but still have them die. He wants fewer votes for the Democrats.

He's just showing what a monster he is...again. I can say for certain if we had a President Kerry or a President Powell this wouldn't have been done this way. It's not that all Republicans are evil - but Bush is.

[sportsfan99]

Why can't they just send a few ships to pick the people up.

[NG]

So you're saying Bush would'nt have done a thing if it hadn't been on TV ?

I've answered all your quesions in other posts. And yes - if this had not been on TV, if his feet were not to the fire, he would have done nothing to help the people there. The level of support has been directly proportional to the press coverage.

[divx]

I agree that the richest and more powerful nation like the US shouldn't ask for handouts. But Bush isn't that bad of a guy to Americans. He only kill non-americans to steal stuff for the americans. The Americans love him, that's why they re-elected him. Might as well keep him in power forever, so he can be a Robin Hood and steal from other nations to give to Americans.

If he piss off his own people, he would be booted out of office so fast...

[sumfunny]

Horrific things, Canada is apperantly gonna keep refineries running full steam that was expected to be shut down for maintenance.

Unfortunalty, I am not suprised a city 6 feet below sea level is flooded.

[sportsfan99]

There is now a bigger concern.A man opened fire at a hospital today and looters over turned a medic boat.

[NG]

Former disaster officials fault federal response to storm

By SETH BORENSTEIN

Knight Ridder Newspapers

WASHINGTON — The federal government has bungled the job of quickly helping the hungry, thirsty and desperate victims of Hurricane Katrina, former federal, state and local disaster chiefs said Wednesday.

The experts, including a former Bush administration disaster response manager, told Knight Ridder Newspapers that the government wasn’t prepared, scrimped on storm spending and shifted its attention from dealing with natural disasters to fighting the global war on terrorism.




Last year, FEMA spent $250,000 to conduct an eight-day hurricane drill for a mock killer storm hitting New Orleans. Many of the scenarios now playing out, including a helicopter evacuation of the Superdome, were discussed in that drill.

This year, the group was to design a plan to fix such unresolved problems as evacuating sick and injured people from the Superdome and housing tens of thousands of stranded citizens. Funding for that was cut, Tolbert said.

FEMA wasn’t alone in cutting hurricane spending in New Orleans and the surrounding area.

Federal flood control spending for southeastern Louisiana has been chopped from $69 million in 2001 to $36.5 million in 2005, according to budget documents. Federal hurricane protection for the Lake Pontchartrain area in the Army Corps of Engineers’ budget dropped from $14.25 million in 2002 to $5.7 million this year.

In 2004 the corps essentially stopped major work on the now-breached levee system that had protected New Orleans from flooding. It was the first such stoppage in 37 years, the Times-Picayune newspaper reported.
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/12529090.htm

[NG]

Unfortunalty, I am not suprised a city 6 feet below sea level is flooded.

Nor am I esp when for the first time in 37 years they stop maintaining the army stops maintaining what kept the city from flooding. Hmmm....what could the army have been doing instead in 2004. Oh that's right - Iraq.

[NG]

Living 'like animals'

The city is "out of resources at the convention center and doesn't anticipate enough buses," the mayor said in his statement.

CNN's Chris Lawrence described "many, many" bodies, inside and outside the facility on New Orleans' Riverwalk. (Watch report on the desperate conditions at the convention center -- 4:36 )

"There are multiple people dying at the convention center," Lawrence said. "There was an old woman, dead in a wheelchair with a blanket draped over her, pushed up against a wall. Horrible, horrible conditions.

"We saw a man who went into a seizure, literally dying right in front of us."

Nagin said that "the convention center is unsanitary and unsafe and we are running out of supplies for [15,000 to 20,000] people."

He said the city would allow people to march up the Crescent City Connection to the Westbank Expressway in an effort to find help.

People were "being forced to live like animals," Lawrence said, surrounded by piles of trash and feces.

He said thousands of people were just lying on the ground outside the building -- many old, or sick, or caring for infants and small children.

So it's impossible to get enough busses to the convention centre. It's impossible get medicine to the sick when a reporter can get to them.

Where's the compassionate conservatism President Bush? This is either indifference to their death or complete incompetence.

In related news Fats Domino is also missing from the floods [Source] (http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/Music/09/01/katrina.fatsdomino.ap/index.html)

[stealth]

Could have fooled me ...there's nothing funny about it .




Express your opinions on the meits of the points he ( beloved or not ) makes in his argument - by all means - that's the essence of debate. All I'm saying is keep the focus of your commnetary on his argument - there's no need to have to resort to taking disparaging shots at his character or image ( i.e Gordon Sinclair had a vagina ) jut because you have happen to disargee with him.




I said they had the some same stress and the same issues facing them today as they did then - that doesn't automtically mean it's the same country - that's not my assessment in the least.



If they closed their eyes to what was happening to their country at the hands of the government then none of these would happened..


a stronger media - media becames more confident and aggressive in the 70's .Watergate was unravelled by the Washington Post reporters,Woodward and Bernstein. Their work led to the development of teams of "investigative" reporters on newspapers around the world that we see today - looking for dirt and corruption - it started in the 70's - how is this closing your eyes and not questioning ?

a rebellious youth - a general alienation from mainstream America took place in the 70's , not just disillusionment with politics - it gave birth to the anti -war movement against Vietnam - it gave birth to Woodstock, drug culture and yippes etc. and hopes that a ' new generation' ( where the term came from ) had emerged,- how is that closing your eyes ? not questioning ?

the envrionment - the 70's gave way to new grassroots environmental movements , with the media , exposing fiascos like the Love Canal and Hooker Chemical - in fact Earth Day underscores how environmentalism came in to the mainstream the 70's - how is that closing your eyes ? not questioning ?



No need to re-evaluate, nothing presented so far hass changed my mind - I'm quite comfortable with my argument.




Sorry ..what hole is France, Germany, Sweden , Japan, Italy etc. in ?



Why would i think Asia has recovered, it will take years. fair enuf - Ethiopia can take a pass - I clearly had Ethiopia in mind when I said 'other countries' - there, a joke of my own.



See the underline(s) ?

Tell the Red Cross not to keep asking for donations of money if you feel that way.

Perhaps the Red Cross has a different definitions of ' standard of living ' than you do - a more basic one - survival- one that involves basic food, water, shelter and medicine.

Why you would advocate Canada and it's citizens to NOT send money to the Red Cross for them to do their good work is beyond me.

I think we can agree that we dont share the same sense of humour,
Cuz I'm still chuckling about the vagina joke, and totally didnt get yours (maybe cuz sarcasm doesnt work well in print and is considered a pretty cheap form of humor anyways) :)

The reason I say Ethiopia as an example is not to be facetious, although it clearly went way over your head. Its because you spoke of the countries that have benefitted the most from aid from the US previously. Somehow, it seems the US would have donated more aid to Ethiopia than .....uh what was your example....Sweden????? Please tell me that they did, right? Point is, you dont just help a country out once, and then think they'll be on their feet ready to help you next time around. Do you think that quarter you gave the junkie on the way to work this morning, will have him cleaned up and off to a new job and condo by tomorrow morning?

I also wouldnt cite Italy as an example if I were you. Perhaps your impression may be of them all wearing Armani suits and driving Ferrari's, but Italy is in fact a very poor country.

Maybe I will write a letter to the Red Cross. I would ask them why they are having such a a hard time getting funding for an internal catastrophe when the US has so much budget to put into Homeland Security (which this disaster should probably also tie into), initiating wars, weapons research, vast oil reserves among other less critical expenses.
Dont wave the RedCross flag at me, as if by their very name they should have instant credibility. I lost respect for them earlier this year when I found out they were letting countries CHARGE them TAX on aid and supplies they were bringing into those countries to help THEM after the Tsunami.

Please dont take my objection to sending money to Red Cross as apathy or spite. I just dont send money to people richer than me (Americans wealth > Canadians wealth) even when they do have hard times.

So, we can nitpick each others points and take things out of context all week. Put your money where your mouth is, how much money are you sending the Red Cross for this crisis?

[sportsfan99]

If you want to give your money to then when they really don't need it go a head.But don't say the gov should give funding if they did i would write a letter saying how i do not agree with there move etc.

[poedua]

Put your money where your mouth is, how much money are you sending the Red Cross for this crisis?

An amount our family feels is appropriate.

[poedua]

I've answered all your quesions in other posts. And yes - if this had not been on TV, if his feet were not to the fire, he would have done nothing to help the people there. The level of support has been directly proportional to the press coverage.

That's an interesting theory, and I can see how you got seduced into drawing that conclusion.

But while you've got a pretty good argument that this a relationship that appears to exist at face value, I think it fades away pretty quickly once you control for another variables and patterns of behavior from a variety of sources i.e the city, state, and FEMA's and their level of competence.

There's no question the coverage is somehow proportional / associated to Bush's response, but it's just a loose association. But it's not the same as causation - I can't accept that TV coverage caused Bush to respond.

It's kind of like saying for school children, shoe size is directly proportional with reading skills - find biggger shoes sizes ( i.e increased TV coverage ) and you'll find better reading skills ( a comensurate Bush response )

Learning new words does not make the feet get bigger- it's age. As children get older, they learn to read better and they outgrow their shoes.

If anything, I'd say the timing of his visits and response is a function of the poor political judgement.

[stealth]

An amount our family feels is appropriate.

Then I guess you're no better than the rest of us. We all will "give what we feel is appropriate".

Pretty much what I thought. Zero.
You just like to debate.
What does your family have to do with it anyways? You cant give for something you believe in? Or would you not be giving anything out of your own pocket, just your parents, and taking moral credit for it?

I hope you give an "equally appropriate" amount for the 953 people killed in Iraq this week as well, and not just the trendy causes.

[Beradon]

I agree that the richest and more powerful nation like the US shouldn't ask for handouts. But Bush isn't that bad of a guy to Americans. He only kill non-americans to steal stuff for the americans. The Americans love him, that's why they re-elected him. Might as well keep him in power forever, so he can be a Robin Hood and steal from other nations to give to Americans.

If he piss off his own people, he would be booted out of office so fast...*yaaawwwwnnnnnn* same crap in, same crap coming out. It's always the same ***** with you people.

[NG]

That's an interesting theory, and I can see how you got seduced into drawing that conclusion.

If you don't think that the federal government isn't doing enough just turn on Anderson Cooper's 360 whose been breaking out crying on air at the governor demanding to know why there isn't being more done (he's there).

If it's because Bush didn't feel that it wasn't worthwhile to protect those who voted for him or if it was just sheer idioticy that could be a judgement call but I can't believe that, even Bush, is that stupid.

The fact that the Army Corps of Engineers stopped working on the now damaged levee system because of work to be done in Iraq is going to become a major part of this story as the days and weeks come - mark my words.

[neilson]

You can blame Bush all you want since he's the easy target, the one who's name we all know.

Well, learn a little, and you'll see that Kathleen Blanco has been running around like a chicken whit her head cut off. Now, don't call me anti-Democrat or anti-Woman in Power; as much as I dislike her for her other opinions, were Hillary Clinton Governor of Louisiana, I strongly feel we would see more organization and at least competant PR coming out of Baton Rouge.

Bush can only sign so many documents and make so many visits. Mayor Nagin is working with all the tools he can, and while he might have some slips here and there; he's at least on the ground and doing all he can possibly be allowed to do.

Blanco; get some sense and get the job done. Bad Leadership is what's gonna cause the bulk of the deaths, so don't think you'll be held any less to regards then Ray Nagin or George W. Bush; both of which I will always give more credit to then Blanco.

So, go on and keep bashing Bush. I'm just saying, quit being lazy and look at Mrs. Blanco;.

[alleycat8675309]

We can sell them beetle kill wood really cheap to fix their house. Nah, screw'em, gouge the hell outta them.

[poedua]

Pretty much what I thought. Zero.

Your thought is zero - but, in reality it's an actual amount.

You just like to debate..

You're very astute - yes, I like to debate


What does your family have to do with it anyways.

The entire family has been seeing the images on TV, and we were as upset as you were. So, we talked it over with our 4 kids over dinner and decided we'd like to pledge a contribution to the Red Cross to help out in our small way.

We give to, and volunteer with, charities as a family if we can - our 4 kids included.

Why do you ask ?


You cant give for something you believe in? .

I just did ...Red Cross.


Or would you not be giving anything out of your own pocket, just your parents, and taking moral credit for it?.

What do my parents have to do with validating your argument?

is this one of those ' out of context ' questions ?

Both my parents have both passed away, we also give as a family to the charities that fight the diseases that killed them - heart disease ( mom ) and cancer ( dad )

I hope you give an "equally appropriate" amount for the 953 people killed in Iraq this week as well, and not just the trendy causes.

I give to the Red Cross and the Cancer Society and the Heart Foundation - and 2 others - sad to think you consider human suffering on the scale of Katrina as 'trendy'

[grant]

Canadians, I ask of you to e-mail Paul Martin, your MPs and your charitable organizations, and ask what if anything will be sent to New Orleans and Mississippi to help the crisis.

Let's put it this way: What help do you WANT our government to offer?

What can our government offer that USA government doesn't already have plenty of?

[divx]

Let's put it this way: What help do you WANT our government to offer?

What can our government offer that USA government doesn't already have plenty of?

USA have more things than Canada in every single catagory. More population, more money, more military force, etc. We offer our condolence to them, and that is all they need. Bush haven't requested any assistance yet, so that means he has everything taken care of.

[divx]

*yaaawwwwnnnnnn* same crap in, same crap coming out. It's always the same ***** with you people.

You have a problem? That's fine, we are entitled to our own opinions. We won't be discussing this if everyone agreed on one thing.

[afong56]

You can blame Bush all you want since he's the easy target, the one who's name we all know.

Well, learn a little, and you'll see that Kathleen Blanco has been running around like a chicken whit her head cut off. Now, don't call me anti-Democrat or anti-Woman in Power; as much as I dislike her for her other opinions, were Hillary Clinton Governor of Louisiana, I strongly feel we would see more organization and at least competant PR coming out of Baton Rouge.

Bush can only sign so many documents and make so many visits. Mayor Nagin is working with all the tools he can, and while he might have some slips here and there; he's at least on the ground and doing all he can possibly be allowed to do.

Blanco; get some sense and get the job done. Bad Leadership is what's gonna cause the bulk of the deaths, so don't think you'll be held any less to regards then Ray Nagin or George W. Bush; both of which I will always give more credit to then Blanco.

So, go on and keep bashing Bush. I'm just saying, quit being lazy and look at Mrs. Blanco;.


weren't you the one pleading for us to drop the politics?

then you spew out all of this partisan rhetoric without a shred of examples? some might cry 'hypocrite' at this point, but i only ask that you do exactly what you asked of us--drop the politics.

better yet, since this thread is now redundant (and always pointless), why not do the proper thing and ask for it to be locked???

thanks in advance

[NG]

So, go on and keep bashing Bush. I'm just saying, quit being lazy and look at Mrs. Blanco;.

I stand by how I believe Bush is responsible for this disaster of a disaster rescue however, from what I've seen of Kathleen Blanco, your analogy of her running around like a chicken whit her head cut off does have merit.

Anderson Cooper ripped her a new one on his show earlier. Def worth catching the repeat if it's on in your area.

[guest10586]

You can blame Bush all you want since he's the easy target, the one who's name we all know.

Well, learn a little, and you'll see that Kathleen Blanco has been running around like a chicken whit her head cut off. Now, don't call me anti-Democrat or anti-Woman in Power; as much as I dislike her for her other opinions, were Hillary Clinton Governor of Louisiana, I strongly feel we would see more organization and at least competant PR coming out of Baton Rouge.

Bush can only sign so many documents and make so many visits. Mayor Nagin is working with all the tools he can, and while he might have some slips here and there; he's at least on the ground and doing all he can possibly be allowed to do.

Blanco; get some sense and get the job done. Bad Leadership is what's gonna cause the bulk of the deaths, so don't think you'll be held any less to regards then Ray Nagin or George W. Bush; both of which I will always give more credit to then Blanco.

So, go on and keep bashing Bush. I'm just saying, quit being lazy and look at Mrs. Blanco;.

So you've finally shown your true colors. You want sympathy and want to put politics aside, yet you bring this up.

Americans can band together to help, but I doubt a significant amount will. This is just another news story to them and even more distant to us. Less then 200 dead when 30,000+ was the estimate, I probably won't lose any sleep. 300 million Americans vs 30 million Canadians, hmmm...answer is pretty obvious about who you should get help from.

[sportsfan99]

You can blame Bush all you want since he's the easy target, the one who's name we all know.

Well, learn a little, and you'll see that Kathleen Blanco has been running around like a chicken whit her head cut off. Now, don't call me anti-Democrat or anti-Woman in Power; as much as I dislike her for her other opinions, were Hillary Clinton Governor of Louisiana, I strongly feel we would see more organization and at least competant PR coming out of Baton Rouge.

Bush can only sign so many documents and make so many visits. Mayor Nagin is working with all the tools he can, and while he might have some slips here and there; he's at least on the ground and doing all he can possibly be allowed to do.

Blanco; get some sense and get the job done. Bad Leadership is what's gonna cause the bulk of the deaths, so don't think you'll be held any less to regards then Ray Nagin or George W. Bush; both of which I will always give more credit to then Blanco.

So, go on and keep bashing Bush. I'm just saying, quit being lazy and look at Mrs. Blanco;.

Neilson how old are you it sounds that your young and uneducated on the whole system.The states/ canada etc have plans and mpney in place for major issues like this.The truth is the states does not need money from any one else.

[poedua]

I stand by how I believe Bush is responsible for this disaster of a disaster rescue however, from what I've seen of Kathleen Blanco, your analogy of her running around like a chicken whit her head cut off does have merit.

Anderson Cooper ripped her a new one on his show earlier. Def worth catching the repeat if it's on in your area.

The case against Bush might actually have some merit NG.

The Bush White House has been cutting the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers New Orleans District hurricane protection budget every year since 2001.

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers had already identified millions of dollars in flood and hurricane protection projects in the New Orleans district.

In 2001, the Corps in the New Orleans district spent $147 million on construction projects. When fiscal year 2005 wraps up Sept. 30, the Corps expects to have spent $82 million( pre Katrina ) , a 44.2 percent reduction from 2001 expenditures.

In fiscal year 2006, the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is bracing for a record $71.2 million reduction in federal funding the largest single-year funding loss ever for the New Orleans district. A direct result of Bush budget cuts.

The cuts mean major hurricane and flood protection projects will not be awarded to local engineering firms which include a study to determine ways to protect the region from a Category 5 hurricane. The study has been shelved .

As CNN's been reporting, the levees Can only handle a catagory 3.

You have to wonder if adequate funding for Corp projects might have prevented or perhaps mitigated the collpase of the levvees

[danfromwaterloo]

You can blame Bush all you want since he's the easy target, the one who's name we all know.


He's not the "easy target". He's the President of the United States and the Commander-in-Chief of the world's largest army. In the end, he's responsible for the entire government.


Well, learn a little, and you'll see that Kathleen Blanco has been running around like a chicken whit her head cut off. Now, don't call me anti-Democrat or anti-Woman in Power; as much as I dislike her for her other opinions, were Hillary Clinton Governor of Louisiana, I strongly feel we would see more organization and at least competant PR coming out of Baton Rouge.


WHO CARES ABOUT PR? Right now, I wouldn't give two sh*ts about what the state is looking like right now, so long as we could get food and water to the area. People down there can deal with the heat, and the waits. But when people don't even have food, people start to die.


Bush can only sign so many documents and make so many visits. Mayor Nagin is working with all the tools he can, and while he might have some slips here and there; he's at least on the ground and doing all he can possibly be allowed to do.


Don't visit. Go to the Senate. Get them to pass a sweeping bill opening up massive funding. Get them to redirect the entire military. Right now, the Mayor is not at all to blame, because he can only do with what he has.


Blanco; get some sense and get the job done. Bad Leadership is what's gonna cause the bulk of the deaths, so don't think you'll be held any less to regards then Ray Nagin or George W. Bush; both of which I will always give more credit to then Blanco.

Right now, half of Blanco's state is under water, damaged, or destroyed. What would you have her do? A relief effort of this magnitude MUST come from the Federal level. What has Bush done? Passed a bill, and flown over the area. Crazy.


So, go on and keep bashing Bush. I'm just saying, quit being lazy and look at Mrs. Blanco;.

Trust us, there's enough blame to go around here to cover everybody. But in the end, Bush is the President. When things go good, he gets praise. When things go bad, he gets dumped on. Because in the end, he determines what happens.

[15-20_God]

Don't visit. Go to the Senate. Get them to pass a sweeping bill opening up massive funding. Get them to redirect the entire military. Right now, the Mayor is not at all to blame, because he can only do with what he has.

don't forget, he also cut his vacation short by 2 days and made sure there was enough oil for the rest of the country. He also made a speech today.

[DJXP]

too many pages ahhH!, don't know if anyone has mentioned but we have offered help, several divisions, and rescue teams that are trained, but we simply have not heard any response from the americans. PM Martin was to call Bush and speak to him about what Canada can do to help, but I haven't followed since then.

[grant]

Let's put it this way: What help do you WANT our government to offer?

What can our government offer that USA government doesn't already have plenty of?

Still waiting for an answer Nielson.... You were pretty pissy before, what happened?

[neilson]

Still waiting for an answer Nielson.... You were pretty pissy before, what happened?

I answered this several times but her goes again: A Goodwill gesture of manpower.

BTW I am more pissed with Bush right now then I ever have been. You gays can read my responses on the HUrricane Thread(THat oddly, noone found odd when I began to rip on the Prez.; How.......odd).

He screwed up. He failed us. He and CONGRESS acted too slow.

Meanwhile, Governor BLanco, which here's some info for you guys up north; the National Guard answers to the Governor of said state, and those Governors HATE the idea of Washington completely centralizing power and guidence. Anyway, Blanco has been running around like a chicken with her head cut off, calling pointless press conferences and ya know what? I'm DAMN Glad Anderson COoper ripped into her live on TV last night, and I'm DAMN Proud Ted Koppel ripped into the FEMA Director last night so hard to the point it practically hurt to see him take the punches, but it's good. It's great. Bush, Blanco; you all failed the nation.

YOU FAILED.

There. THAT Clear enough for you ppl?

[guest10586]

I answered this several times but her goes again: A Goodwill gesture of manpower.

BTW I am more pissed with Bush right now then I ever have been. You gays can read my responses on the HUrricane Thread(THat oddly, noone found odd when I began to rip on the Prez.; How.......odd).

He screwed up. He failed us. He and CONGRESS acted too slow.

Meanwhile, Governor BLanco, which here's some info for you guys up north; the National Guard answers to the Governor of said state, and those Governors HATE the idea of Washington completely centralizing power and guidence. Anyway, Blanco has been running around like a chicken with her head cut off, calling pointless press conferences and ya know what? I'm DAMN Glad Anderson COoper ripped into her live on TV last night, and I'm DAMN Proud Ted Koppel ripped into the FEMA Director last night so hard to the point it practically hurt to see him take the punches, but it's good. It's great. Bush, Blanco; you all failed the nation.

YOU FAILED.

There. THAT Clear enough for you ppl?

:-0

[Montague]

I answered this several times but her goes again: A Goodwill gesture of manpower.

I would assume they would be under the authority of the State government rather than the Feds?

Anyhow the Canadian Red Cross is already mobilized and sending personnel down south.

As well as supplies sent via our puny navy:

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2005/09/02/1199575-cp.html

I am sure they will be another stuff/manpower sent from Canada.

[xxx]

Here is how the Americans reacted when asked to help Taiwan out (http://groups.google.ca/group/soc.culture.china/browse_thread/thread/aa0a5ae1acf164c9/7acac027046ed3c7?hl=en#7acac027046ed3c7)

[Byrns]

Here is how the Americans reacted when asked to help Taiwan out (http://groups.google.ca/group/soc.culture.china/browse_thread/thread/aa0a5ae1acf164c9/7acac027046ed3c7?hl=en#7acac027046ed3c7)

http://www.vjcentral.com/smilies/rolleyes.gif
Gimme a break.

[poedua]

Here is how the Americans reacted when asked to help Taiwan out (http://groups.google.ca/group/soc.culture.china/browse_thread/thread/aa0a5ae1acf164c9/7acac027046ed3c7?hl=en#7acac027046ed3c7)

What aspect of Taiwan is related to Katrina ?

[xxx]

What aspect of Taiwan is related to Katrina ?

This is what an american(Shanadu) said (http://groups.google.ca/group/soc.culture.china/browse_thread/thread/4d0cf966e2607ac3/1267de9e5c2a2bce?hl=en&)

[poedua]

This is what an american(Shanadu) said (http://groups.google.ca/group/soc.culture.china/browse_thread/thread/4d0cf966e2607ac3/1267de9e5c2a2bce?hl=en&)

Sorry, perhaps you misunderstood me.

The question was to you actually.

I was wondering what point YOU were trying to make, not a blog contributor , by sending a link(s) about Taiwan and US within the context of a thread about Katrina ?

What's Taiwan got to do with Kartrina IYMO ?

[xxx]

Sorry, perhaps you misunderstood me.

The question was to you actually.

I was wondering what point YOU were trying to make, not a blog contributor , by sending a link(s) about Taiwan and US within the context of a thread about Katrina ?

What's Taiwan got to do with Kartrina IYMO ?

Pointing out the double standard used by Americans !!!

[poedua]

Pointing out the double standard used by Americans !!!

What double standard is that ?

[xxx]

What double standard is that ?

Read the messages on the two links I provided earlier

[Byrns]

Who cares. There's plenty of hate here on RFD already.

[xxx]

Who cares. There's plenty of hate here on RFD already.

This is how the Americans felt about the Tsunami that hit South Asia :


Hot 97 Radio Hosts Sing of 'Africans Drowning,' 'Screaming Ch*nks,' and 'Ch*namen' Tsunami Victims (http://www.asianmediawatch.net/missjones/)

January 21, 2005

Yet another example of racist hate radio aired on New York's Hot 97 WQHT-FM. The hosts of the 'Miss Jones in the Morning' show sing a 'Tsunami Song' which mocks the dead South Asian tsunami victims and uses racially derogatory words "*****" and "Chinamen," and calls the drowning victims "bitches."
Lyrics:

"There was a time, when the sun was shining bright
So I went down to the beach to catch me a tan.
Then the next thing I knew, a wave 20 feet high
Came and washed your whole country away.
And all at once, you can hear the screaming *****s.
And no one was saved from the wave.
There were Africans drowning, little Chinamen swept away.
You can hear God laughing, 'Swim you bitches swim.'

[Chorus]
"So now you're screwed. It's the tsunami,
You better run and kiss your ass away. Go find your mommy.
I just saw her float by, a tree went through her head.
And now your children will be sold. Child slavery."


The song aired twice on the "Miss Jones in the Morning" show on January 18, 2005. The radio hosts received complaints soon after the first airing of song. They responded by playing the song again, an anonymous source told Asian Media Watch.

[Txiasaeia]

I answered this several times but her goes again: A Goodwill gesture of manpower.

BTW I am more pissed with Bush right now then I ever have been. You gays can read my responses on the HUrricane Thread(THat oddly, noone found odd when I began to rip on the Prez.; How.......odd)...

Uh.... I'm thinking you mean guys, right?

[poedua]

Read the messages on the two links I provided earlier

Thanks. I read them, as you did.

I was simply asking what your motivation was by sending the links along in the first place and what conclusions YOU drew by what were you reading.

Never got your personal views in any reply.

But, I did read your comment ( below ) from your reply to another post .

Yup. Whenever someone bashes non-whites, no one complians but whenever something is said about Caucasian there will be loud noises made. Double Standard !!!

I assume that the conclusion you have drawn is that all Americans only care about themselves. They expect help for themselves in times of trouble from others yet refuse to help to others.

And, since you brought up the terms ' non-whites ' and ' caucasians ', I can only assume it is your conclusion all Americans are racist - or is it Canadians are racist - or is it both ? I just wasn't sure who you were referring to when you said " no one complians .....there will be loud noises made "

Again, my apologies if I had to resort to making assumptions of what your conclusions were, it's just that I wasn't able to get your thoughts directly ( only via references to links )

[xxx]

Thanks. I read them, as you did.

I was simply asking what your motivation was by sending the links along in the first place and what conclusions YOU drew by what were you reading.

Never got your personal views in any reply.

But, I did read your comment ( below ) from your reply to another post .

Yup. Whenever someone bashes non-whites, no one complians but whenever something is said about Caucasian there will be loud noises made. Double Standard !!!

I assume that the conclusion you have drawn is that all Americans only care about themselves. They expect help for themselves in times of trouble from others yet refuse to help to others.

And, since you brought up the terms ' non-whites ' and ' caucasians ', I can only assume it is your conclusion all Americans are racist - or is it Canadians are racist - or is it both ? I just wasn't sure who you were referring to when you said " no one complians .....there will be loud noises made "

Again, my apologies if I had to resort to making assumptions of what your conclusions were, it's just that I wasn't able to get your thoughts directly ( only via references to links )

I thought you were about to swear at me. But I am really suprised that you actually apologised to me !!!

poedua, I think I should just melt away from RFD for good.

[frogger]

Yes they "hate" it then go shop at American stores and watch its movies and tv shows. People of strong convictions.

[xxx]

Yes they "hate" it then go shop at American stores and watch its movies and tv shows. People of strong convictions.

"they" ????

[poedua]

I am really suprised that you actually apologised to me !!!
I thought you were about to swear at me. Anyways, as a matter of fact, most people around the world hate USA and the Americans for all the suffering she has caused to many people around the world.

That may be , but that's not what i was trying to determine.

Regarding my comment from my earlier post ( below ) ....

"I assume that the conclusion you have drawn is that all Americans only care about themselves. They expect help for themselves in times of trouble from others yet refuse to help to others "

Was that your interpretation of that comment- did I assume corrrectly ?

I also asked the following ( below ) because I was puzzled why you brought up " non- whites ' and ' cacasians ' in to the discussion.

" I can only assume it is your conclusion all Americans are racist - or is it Canadians are racist - or is it both ? I just wasn't sure who you were referring to when you said " no one complians .....there will be loud noises made "

I never got an answer to those questions - thoughts ?

[xxx]

That may be , but that's not what i was trying to determine.

Regarding my comment from my earlier post ( below ) ....

"I assume that the conclusion you have drawn is that all Americans only care about themselves. They expect help for themselves in times of trouble from others yet refuse to help to others "

Was that your interpretation of that comment- did I assume corrrectly ?

I also asked the following ( below ) because I was puzzled why you brought up " non- whites ' and ' cacasians ' in to the discussion.

" I can only assume it is your conclusion all Americans are racist - or is it Canadians are racist - or is it both ? I just wasn't sure who you were referring to when you said " no one complians .....there will be loud noises made "

I never got an answer to those questions - thoughts ?

You will not get answers to all the questions you asked me.....sorry :(

[poedua]

You will not get answers to all the questions you asked me.....sorry :(

While that's certainly your perogative, when you introduce terms like ' non- whites ' and ' caucasians ' you may come to expect questions as to how those terms are relevant to a discussion.

And , you can assume there will be an expectation from some people that you will, at the very least, elaborate on those reasons why ( if those reasons aren't obvious, ) in the form of a reply to a question.

I'm not surprised you didn't respond to my questions..... that answered my questions.

[grant]

I answered this several times but her goes again: A Goodwill gesture of manpower.

All you want is a "goodwill gesture"??

Now is not the time for gestures, now is the time for action.

There are 30,000 militia stationed just hours away from New Orleans, i can't believe you are bitching at my Country for not getting manpower down there fast enough when your country isn't even using those.

[poedua]

I answered this several times but her goes again: A Goodwill gesture of manpower.

BTW I am more pissed with Bush right now then I ever have been. You gays can read my responses on the HUrricane Thread(THat oddly, noone found odd when I began to rip on the Prez.; How.......odd).

He screwed up. He failed us. He and CONGRESS acted too slow.

Meanwhile, Governor BLanco, which here's some info for you guys up north; the National Guard answers to the Governor of said state, and those Governors HATE the idea of Washington completely centralizing power and guidence. Anyway, Blanco has been running around like a chicken with her head cut off, calling pointless press conferences and ya know what? I'm DAMN Glad Anderson COoper ripped into her live on TV last night, and I'm DAMN Proud Ted Koppel ripped into the FEMA Director last night so hard to the point it practically hurt to see him take the punches, but it's good. It's great. Bush, Blanco; you all failed the nation.

YOU FAILED.

There. THAT Clear enough for you ppl?

What's the Mayor of NO' s culpability in all this - if any ?

On the National Guard, I'm not sure where the nearest base in Louisiana ( terms of miles away ) is, but don't they have their own contingent of helicopters / truck transports sitting on a base and could of been on scene within hours after the hurricane hit ?

I recall seeing only a few Coast Guard and civilian copters on scene seemingly as soon as the wind died - how did they get on scene so fast ?

So the issue is that the entire National Guard was equipped and at the ready - they were just waiting for a green light ot come in ?

Or is it, that when they get the green light to come, they have to first mobilize their civilian soldiers first which takes a few days - thus the delay ?

[LNahid2000]

Anderson Cooper ripped her a new one on his show earlier. Def worth catching the repeat if it's on in your area.
Here's a clip of yesterday's show where Anderson grilled a Louisiana Senator.

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Anderson-Cooper-Landrieu-Katrina.mov

[konfusion666]

What's the Mayor of NO' s culpability in all this - if any ?

I would argue that he is the least culpable of all the levels of government.

It was those resources under HIS control which have been doing the MOST and over-extending themselves (see NOPD) over the past 4-5 days.

It will take time to determine Gov. Blanco's level of fault, but Bush's level of fault in this is already known, when you consider the cuts he authorized to the ACoE...

[afong56]

It will take time to determine Gov. Blanco's level of fault, but Bush's level of fault in this is already known, when you consider the cuts he authorized to the ACoE...

well, the spin doctoring is in full force at bush's mouthpiece network, fox news--bill o'reilly is trying super-hard to sell the idea it was all blanco's fault, repeatedly cutting off guests that even whisper the word 'federal', and continually trying to bring everything back to blanco.

only the monumentally naive would be unable to see through this sham.

of course, there's plenty of foolish americans who will buy this, hook-line-and-sinker. . .