If you have a choice: Do not go to UofT

[Barton03]

Anyone disagree?

[silverek]

what is your argument?

[Blehh]

Lets take it this way, why not?

[StrayB]

Hahahaha. Too funny.

Chalk me up as another bitter/disgruntled student.

[Barton03]

Reasons:


It is a commuting school. There is no such thing as student life.
A max of 20% of students can get a mark of B or higher
Our sports team is the worst in Canada
But our graduate program is the best .. go do your grad here, but not undergrad

[NiMSo]

Reasons:


It is a commuting school. There is no such thing as student life.
A max of 20% of students can get a mark of B or higher
Our sports team is the worst in Canada
But our graduate program is the best .. go do your grad here, but not undergrad



I dunno about the other points, but the last one is somewhat valid. Our undergrad is too competitive: there's really no advantage to doing your undergrad at UofT - and you'll probably get worse marks :razz:. However, the graduate level programs are great since UofT is a leading research institute.

[kilarney]

How about Ryerson or York?

[astrix]

wish someone posted this in march....

[Avenger]

I am in my final year now, and I agree with him. There is no school spirit or anything, people just do not care. It is like highschool all over again. Also, they are REALLY hard to get a hold of, and do many unprofessional things. For example, ignoring emails and voice messages left, neglecting to respond to things they deem unimportant.

Overall they just need to get their stuff together and treat their "customers" a little better. We are paying THEM, and they cannot even have the decency to respond to an email/voicemail? Pfft. Or there is the times you try to call, get a machine saying they are too busy (regardless of the time of year) then you get hung up on.

[NiMSo]

But it's not really that bad... (as long as you're doing well in your studies :D).

However, the positive aspect of UofT is that you will come into contact with many bright people with great potential. Also, you get the opportunity to meet leading professors. Don't waste your undergrad by merely studying or being a hermit - talk to your profs and use those connections to your advantage!

"It's not what you know, it's who you know!"... ;)

[carabunny]

I do go to UofT

going into fourth year.

you guys seem to ignore the fact that other universities seem about the same.

its the same as any big corporation, ie Rogers; they ignore customers majority of the time, etc etc.

if you go to a lesser known University, you may not get the same education, maybe better service and not the same degree in the eyes of others

i'd hate to say it but if you really go put

BBA/BSc from Lakehead or Trent
vs
BBA/BSc from UofT...


what really looks better?

McLeans rates UofT highest every year it seems for a reason...

A max of 20% of students can get a mark of B or higher

its just to prove that if you do get B and higher, you do go better in life compared to someone who does get a B (neglecting all other factors - ie. networking)

[Oversized Rooster]

Agreed! U of T is over-rated. I am sure they used to be top-notch a decade back or so, but these days students are really just a batch of student numbers with marks attached.

My sister's starting her 4th year at U of T's nicest campus "St George" and she does not recommend to younger people to do their undergrad there.

And rightfully so, I didn't pick them. I got two acceptances from U of T, but chose York instead without a shade of doubt.

[KennethToronto]

Agreed! U of T is over-rated. I am sure they used to be top-notch a decade back or so, but these days students are really just a batch of student numbers with marks attached.

My sister's starting her 4th year at U of T's nicest campus "St George" and she does not recommend to younger people to do their undergrad there.

And rightfully so, I didn't pick them. I got two acceptances from U of T, but chose York instead without a shade of doubt.

York? The giant sprawling campus is in the middle of nowhere!

[Oversized Rooster]

York? The giant sprawling campus is in the middle of nowhere!

Oh I am fully aware! My second choice was Carleton in Ottawa. My objective is to get away from home as much as possible while still living at home.

[HowEver]

York? The giant sprawling campus is in the middle of nowhere!

But that's it's unique charm!

Seriously, have you been there lately. Huge new buildings built each year are in-filling all the previously wasted spaces.

[Mint]

Atmosphere wise: I went to UofT (erindale) for 1 year in life sci. It was pretty hard to make friends and meet ppl there. If you didnt go in having a group of friends to start off with, it was tough meeting new peeps (unless you're in res or put a lotta effort in).
I then switched to Mech Eng at Ryerson, and everyone is wayyyy more approachable. The environment was a little more friendly.

Education wise: I personally think, what you put in is what you get out. As I mentioned in another thread, the material you learn is the same. The phsyics/math/chem/etc is the same. They dont have special physics that only UofT teaches. UofT just test's way harder (which is good for weeding out bad/lazy students) which makes you need to work harder to get by. But if you were to work hard to start with, then it doesnt really matter where you go (which is why i think its all dependent on that individual). In the end, if you know the material, you know it. Doesn't matter what school tests you.

Prof wise: I think all schools has good profs and bad profs. At ryerson i had some pretty good profs. Great for asking questions, extra help, references, etc.
Having world renowned scholars doesn't necessarily make them good profs or make them that much better at teaching undergrad material. For grad studies, thats diff.

In the end, I think experience >> education. So I would choose a school that offered co-op over one that didn't (for the same program).

Note: This is just my perspective on the schools. Granted, I do have a slight bias towards Ryerson :D. I will be doing my masters (M.Eng) at UofT though, but I think i'll always feel like a ryerson student.

[grilw]

Great Thread !

I'm a potential undergrad UofT student for BBA , or equivilant Business program . What marks do I need to achieve in high school to stand a chance at acceptance ?
What is the best offered Business program in UofT ?
Is it worth it , compared to other universities in the area , including Ryerson , York , Schulich .... ?

[fwhc022883]

I'm also in 4th year UT in Computer Engineering, just finished my year long internship and I agree with most of the points here.

UT is definately not good for undergrad (and yes, I do get good grades and I still think so).
UT IS overrated, students from the West don't know and still comes here to study, like me.
The profs, administration, registrar, the PEY office, etc doesn't answer emails (once in a few moons, maybe).

And regarding the degrees from other universities: I'll tell you, after working on a year long internship, I talked with a lot of collegues and managers. They could care less if you have a degree in Lakehead or UT when they are hiring. The university name doesn't matter, the marks usually doesn't matter (unless for the 1st round cut off), but your experience does.

So, for those in HS, still considering which uni, heed all the advices in this thread. Of course, there's good points about UT, but then that is going too off topic.

[Barton03]

Ok, let me rephrase the question:

Do you know anyone who would recommend a friend/family member to attend UofT for undergrad?

also, I think most people who attend UofT don't know how *bad* student life here is .. they think that since it's so reputable it must be good.

[akz]

How about Ryerson or York?


Ryerson just takes your money and spits you out .. they set there standards as high as UofT if not higher but you dont graduate with the prestige lol :P They are greedy money eaters!! There councilors just sit on there a$$ and tell you what you already know and theres nothing they can do .. .what is my tuition paying for their salary for? .. argh (at least for my program) not sure about york.. but then theres the phrase "if you can hold a fork, you can goto york" lol jkjk

Ok, let me rephrase the question:

Do you know anyone who would recommend a friend/family member to attend UofT for undergrad?

lol being a asian MY PARENTS highly recommend to attend UofT :P ehhe

[f00kie]

I'm also in 4th year UT in Computer Engineering, just finished my year long internship and I agree with most of the points here.

UT is definately not good for undergrad (and yes, I do get good grades and I still think so).
UT IS overrated, students from the West don't know and still comes here to study, like me.
The profs, administration, registrar, the PEY office, etc doesn't answer emails (once in a few moons, maybe).

And regarding the degrees from other universities: I'll tell you, after working on a year long internship, I talked with a lot of collegues and managers. They could care less if you have a degree in Lakehead or UT when they are hiring. The university name doesn't matter, the marks usually doesn't matter (unless for the 1st round cut off), but your experience does.

So, for those in HS, still considering which uni, heed all the advices in this thread. Of course, there's good points about UT, but then that is going too off topic.

Like you said, your experience matters. And in order to get your first experience, some company is going to have to hire you without any experience, so what else can they look at but the school that you are studying at. If the Human Resources department doesn't know the differance between University of Toronto and Lakehead, well then, although it might not be advantageous for UofT students, it's sad for the HR department and maybe you shouldn't get a job there in any case.

My dad is an Engineering in a very nice firm and he knows that the company will not hire anyone with just a degree from any university - a good company does their homework, even researches the program at each university to determine which one is the best for the type of position they are looking for. The company, which is in Markham, actually finds students from University of Calgary every summer because they know a good professor and a good program at that university that fits their job requirements.

Maybe I am trying to justify the next 4 years (or more) of my spending money going into UofT's account, but I still believe that, even if the school does not have the best program, its reputation would definitely benifit everyone.

[bananaman]

I'm entering 3rd year elec and student life isn't so bad. The reason students have no student/social life is that because they chose it. You need to put effort to meet new people and have fun.

It's tough for commuters and that's something I have yet to experience (I've been living in residence for 2 years and moving back again in 3rd year) but there are ways to make it work.

-go to frosh week, meet new friends that do live in residence, that way - you can ask if you need a place to crash - I let a couple of people crash at my place because they were commuters

-join your department club - the ECE club is interesting but I don't know enough

-join a sports team, varsity or recreational - I joined the varsity rowing team and currently paddling for the Iron Dragons - so much fun really I love it

U of T is so big and it can be daunting, but use it to your advantage. There's so many things out there, there's gotta be something for someone.

[Barton03]

I am currently working at a large firm, and trust me: they know what kind of people go to UofT and what kind graduate. This univesity is prodominently asian and no offense, but you don't learn much about social networking from one single minority.

Have you been to a UofT sponsored recruiting event? 99% are asians and they talk like a textbook. I am asian too, and find that my social skills could've been better if I attended another school like Queens or Western.

[bmw_xperience]

man... all the uni's are the same for undergrad...

but for grad it is different!

[Barton03]

I'm entering 3rd year elec and student life isn't so bad. The reason students have no student/social life is that because they chose it. You need to put effort to meet new people and have fun.

It's tough for commuters and that's something I have yet to experience (I've been living in residence for 2 years and moving back again in 3rd year) but there are ways to make it work.

-go to frosh week, meet new friends that do live in residence, that way - you can ask if you need a place to crash - I let a couple of people crash at my place because they were commuters

-join your department club - the ECE club is interesting but I don't know enough

-join a sports team, varsity or recreational - I joined the varsity rowing team and currently paddling for the Iron Dragons - so much fun really I love it

U of T is so big and it can be daunting, but use it to your advantage. There's so many things out there, there's gotta be something for someone.

How can you a join a sports team or extra clubs if any time you spend doing something non-related to studying means someone else is getting more studying time? Remember, in UofT courses there is a max of 20% of B or higher. Less time you study, the more others study.

[yan84]

I'm entering 3rd year elec and student life isn't so bad. The reason students have no student/social life is that because they chose it. You need to put effort to meet new people and have fun.

It's tough for commuters and that's something I have yet to experience (I've been living in residence for 2 years and moving back again in 3rd year) but there are ways to make it work.

-go to frosh week, meet new friends that do live in residence, that way - you can ask if you need a place to crash - I let a couple of people crash at my place because they were commuters

-join your department club - the ECE club is interesting but I don't know enough

-join a sports team, varsity or recreational - I joined the varsity rowing team and currently paddling for the Iron Dragons - so much fun really I love it

U of T is so big and it can be daunting, but use it to your advantage. There's so many things out there, there's gotta be something for someone.


You don't get it. When it takes you 1.5 hours to commute ONE WAY, you'd be exhausted by the end of the day and just wanna go home and get some rest after classes are over. Like if I have classes from 9-3, I basically have to leave home at 7:30am and come back at 5. Especially during midterm or exam periods, I'd like to leave ASAP so I can start studying as early as possible. Most commuters just won't have the time or mood to join after class activities and what not.

Still, I like UofT coz getting As actually mean something. I wouldn't wanna go to a school where good students aren't well distinguished from the less competent ones. Also, competition drives you to be a better student.

[Barton03]

You don't get it. When it takes you 1.5 hours to commute ONE WAY, you'd be exhausted by the end of the day and just wanna go home and get some rest after classes are over. Like if I have classes from 9-3, I basically have to leave home at 7:30am and come back at 5. Especially during midterm or exam periods, I'd like to leave ASAP so I can start studying as early as possible. Most commuters just won't have the time or mood to join after class activities and what not.

Still, I like UofT coz getting As actually mean something. I wouldn't wanna go to a school where good students aren't well distinguished from the less competent ones. Also, competition drives you to be a better student.

I agree. Commuting is a (rhythms with ditch), and if you've never commuted then you don't know. I lived in res my first year, 2nd year lived @ home. Boy, what a difference. I used to have a different girl every night (ok..I'm exaggerating) but you get my point ..

I also agree that at UofT an A is something to be proud of. You understand how difficult to get an A is, and if someone has an A, good for them -- they actually earned it.

However, unless your head hunter is from UofT they don't know that. UofT is the only university in Canada that puts a cap in how many students can get a certain mark. No other university does that -- that's why some other uni marks are 'inflated' (if you want to say that).

If you are applying for a job and your mark is below a B you better pray that your hiring manager is a UofT grad or you're so out of luck >:(

[commie]

I am currently working at a large firm, and trust me: they know what kind of people go to UofT and what kind graduate. This univesity is prodominently asian and no offense, but you don't learn much about social networking from one single minority.

Have you been to a UofT sponsored recruiting event? 99% are asians and they talk like a textbook. I am asian too, and find that my social skills could've been better if I attended another school like Queens or Western.

This has been by far the most insightful comment made about UofT...

Firms do realize what type of students goto an university and program....Thats why investment banks and consulting firms hire more from Queens and Western undergrads as oppose to UofT commerce....

Students need to have a variety of social backgrounds to network...going to an university that is like HK is not helping people develop social and communication skills.

[MizTEcK]

on one hand i would tell ppl not to go to uoft because its hard standards and etc...but again... if u survive this (arts & science) u prolly would be able to fit to survive in the real working world where nothing's ever so perfect. no offence to the engineering students but the things others have mentioned here about uoft students having no social skills were basically derived from them. But that's also due to their programs giving them long class hours and big workloads, so they can't be blamed for 100% giving off that stereotype.

[edit] seems commerce students are having the same problems are engineering students

[Barton03]

I think the type of people who understands UofT the most (by researching and asking around) are the ones who graduate and then go international. Why? Because the name Toronto means a lot in the international landscape.

UofT holds absolutely no additional merit when compared to other universities since firms either (a) have recruiters that attend events and find out that most of the students lack the necessary social skills; or (b) the head hunter isn't from UofT and doesn't understand how hard it is to get 'good' grades. A "B" from Queens does not equal a "B" from UofT. Getting a mark of B in UofT is considered above average (average = C ~ 65) and top students get B+, rarely do I know of someone scoring consistent As (actually, I don't know anyone who has more than 4 As..)

[cuiyinghost]

I am a graduated, not graduate, student from U of T and will do my Master in Windsor, Thanks to my poor undergrad GPA.

do that make the point. ;)

[Barton03]

I am a graduated, not graduate, student from U of T and will do my Master in Windsor, Thanks to my poor undergrad GPA.

Is that makes the point. ;)


I think your English just proved what I meant by, "poor social networking skills" ;)

[cuiyinghost]

I think your English just proved what I meant by, "poor social networking skills" ;)


yeah, should get educated from UW

[kawai]

I'm entering 3rd year elec and student life isn't so bad. The reason students have no student/social life is that because they chose it. You need to put effort to meet new people and have fun.

It's tough for commuters and that's something I have yet to experience (I've been living in residence for 2 years and moving back again in 3rd year) but there are ways to make it work.

-go to frosh week, meet new friends that do live in residence, that way - you can ask if you need a place to crash - I let a couple of people crash at my place because they were commuters

-join your department club - the ECE club is interesting but I don't know enough

-join a sports team, varsity or recreational - I joined the varsity rowing team and currently paddling for the Iron Dragons - so much fun really I love it

U of T is so big and it can be daunting, but use it to your advantage. There's so many things out there, there's gotta be something for someone.


Hey fellow ECE minion, going into 3rd year too...

Who has the time to join clubs when they run a constant death march program in ECE?

Most of us spend so much time studying and hoping desperatly to pass and bellcurves that half of us would probably drop dead if you make us run lol.

[whohoo]

Well, I want to say the study in Engineering is harder than in arts/science, because I was transferred from arts&science to engineering. You can have a bit more social life in arts&science than in engineering.

If you want to get high marks, don't go to UT. One of my classmate came from Ryerson(EE). She was top 5 in Ryerson(that's why she can transfer to UT). But it is very hard to get a B+ in UT ECE. But the studies are much more enjoyable in Ryerson.

[whohoo]

going into ECE 3rd year too... glad to find two more ECE ppl.

Maybe we know each other :)

How are you guys doing in course registration?

Hey fellow ECE minion, going into 3rd year too...

Who has the time to join clubs when they run a constant death march program in ECE?

Most of us spend so much time studying and hoping desperatly to pass and bellcurves that half of us would probably drop dead if you make us run lol.

[mritche]

How can you a join a sports team or extra clubs if any time you spend doing something non-related to studying means someone else is getting more studying time? Remember, in UofT courses there is a max of 20% of B or higher. Less time you study, the more others study.
Your claim that "there is a max of 20% of B or higher." is not true. In my first and second year ECE classes, 20-25% of students have been on the honour roll (read: 80% average or higher). That is also not atypical. I can also tell you that in my past two years (10 classes) at U of T I've had 4 or 5 whose averages were in the B- or B range. Now, people aren't failing left right and centre, so wouldn't that lead you to believe that more than 20% of the class is getting Bs?

You don't get it. When it takes you 1.5 hours to commute ONE WAY, you'd be exhausted by the end of the day and just wanna go home and get some rest after classes are over.
I've commuted for the past two years and can tell you you're right, it can be painful to commute. I've learned to sleep on the subway and my life has become much better :). That doesn't render extracurriculars impossible though. I know a few people who live at home (45-75 minutes each way from school) who still get involved.

Still, I like UofT coz getting As actually mean something. I wouldn't wanna go to a school where good students aren't well distinguished from the less competent ones.
I agree here, but I feel as though the standards have been dropping lately. They're admitting a lot of students from right out of high school without averages that are too low (from what I've heard). They're also (IMO) not failing enough people out of first year. The problem with that is people don't realize something isn't for them until they're already halfway through, then they want to stick it out "just because." Then everybody loses.

Top students get B+, rarely do I know of someone scoring consistent As (actually, I don't know anyone who has more than 4 As..)
You're wrong, at least in engineering. Good students get B+s. Top students get A+s.

going into ECE 3rd year too... glad to find two more ECE ppl.

Maybe we know each other :)

How are you guys doing in course registration?
*waves* What's your name? I might not know you, but I'm sure you've at least seen my name pop up more than a few times (think forums).

Course registration is a small annoyance, but a few friends wrote applications to graphically lay everything out which makes it a lot less painful. Remember to be up at 6:00 am Monday for ROSI registration!

[kawai]

going into ECE 3rd year too... glad to find two more ECE ppl.

Maybe we know each other :)

How are you guys doing in course registration?

Anyone know what's going on with the HSS/CS registration, there are no spots left for pretty much all of the EAS/History courses. Anyone knows if they will increase spaces during the second phase of enrollment?

[Barton03]

Your claim that "there is a max of 20% of B or higher." is not true. In my first and second year ECE classes, 20-25% of students have been on the honour roll (read: 80% average or higher). That is also not atypical. I can also tell you that in my past two years (10 classes) at U of T I've had 4 or 5 whose averages were in the B- or B range. Now, people aren't failing left right and centre, so wouldn't that lead you to believe that more than 20% of the class is getting Bs?


I never said people are failing, but if you were a recruiter who didn't graduate from UofT and you have two potential applicants (on paper, before interview) and one student from Queen's has a mark of "A-" (which is very common in Queen's) and the UofT student has a "B-" which is also common at UofT -- guess who will get a phone call and who won't??

That's why I said, UofT only allows ~20% of students to get a mark higher than B. Haven't you noticed how the prof reacts when he announces that the class avg is greater than 70? The test after that *will* be harder to force the class avg down ... just wondering, but when did school mean competing against each other? I thought at university we were to foster a network of friends?

At U of T, it's not how smart you are, but how smart you are relative to your peers.

The above is assumed the student is in either engineering, commerce, comp sci, psych, etc.. (ie: not atypical bird courses)

[Tilter]

A thread with 3rd year ECEers...exciting...so what CS/HSS courses are you picking?

I heard U of T Scarbs had a course called Water, if only I could find something like that to slack off in :P

[mritche]

A thread with 3rd year ECEers...exciting...so what CS/HSS courses are you picking?

I heard U of T Scarbs had a course called Water, if only I could find something like that to slack off in :P

I really wanted to take TRN200Y, Modes of Reasoning. I've heard nothing but rave reviews about the professor and the course itself, but it's full. I'm looking into religion or languages courses for this year now.

[Headhunter]

I am in my final year now, and I agree with him. There is no school spirit or anything, people just do not care. It is like highschool all over again. Also, they are REALLY hard to get a hold of, and do many unprofessional things. For example, ignoring emails and voice messages left, neglecting to respond to things they deem unimportant.
College is even worse, in those regards. At least Seneca@York was way cheaper, really clean and had great tech facilities...

[commie]

I never said people are failing, but if you were a recruiter who didn't graduate from UofT and you have two potential applicants (on paper, before interview) and one student from Queen's has a mark of "A-" (which is very common in Queen's) and the UofT student has a "B-" which is also common at UofT -- guess who will get a phone call and who won't??

That's why I said, UofT only allows ~20% of students to get a mark higher than B. Haven't you noticed how the prof reacts when he announces that the class avg is greater than 70? The test after that *will* be harder to force the class avg down ... just wondering, but when did school mean competing against each other? I thought at university we were to foster a network of friends?

At U of T, it's not how smart you are, but how smart you are relative to your peers.

The above is assumed the student is in either engineering, commerce, comp sci, psych, etc.. (ie: not atypical bird courses)

What a bunch of crock....
A student from Queen's with a A- average will get hired over the B- UofT student not because of their marks, but because the Queen's student will be able to present him/her self better. Also, one of the reasons that A- are fairly common at Queen's Commerce, is that the students do really deserve that mark.....They are the creme of the creme students that get admitted to the program. The peer group at queen's is higher, thats why there are more A- students.....

Going to Queen's or Western is like going to a normal North Amercian University.....Going to UofT is like going to a Hong Kong campus of HKU....
Thanks but no thanks.....And I am Asian myself....

In a program like Commerce, communication and social skills are essential.....Most of those HK UofT commies can't even talk properly in English, let alone trying to hold an intelligent conservation during the recruiting sessions or interviews. This IS the main reason why Queen's Commerce students will get hired before the UofT commerce students...Not because of the A- over the B- marks......Even a C student at Queen's will have a better odds than a B- UofT commerce student.

[MizTEcK]

What a bunch of crock....
A student from Queen's with a A- average will get hired over the B- UofT student not because of their marks, but because the Queen's student will be able to present him/her self better. Also, one of the reasons that A- are fairly common at Queen's Commerce, is that the students do really deserve that mark.....They are the creme of the creme students that get admitted to the program. The peer group at queen's is higher, thats why there are more A- students.....

Going to Queen's or Western is like going to a normal North Amercian University.....Going to UofT is like going to a Hong Kong campus of HKU....
Thanks but no thanks.....And I am Asian myself....

In a program like Commerce, communication and social skills are essential.....Most of those HK UofT commies can't even talk properly in English, let alone trying to hold an intelligent conservation during the recruiting sessions or interviews. This IS the main reason why Queen's Commerce students will get hired before the UofT commerce students...Not because of the A- over the B- marks......Even a C student at Queen's will have a better odds than a B- UofT commerce student.

im gonna ignore your comments cuz ur extremely biased towards your university, not every university rolls out top notch executive materials

[bananaman]

I always thought the commerce program at Queens is more highly regarded that U of T's. I recognize two names here, kawai and mritche.

Kawai - I think I sat across from you in the ECE231 labs and a few comps down in the ECE243 lab.
Whohoo - Dunno who you are.

[mritche]

I never said people are failing, but if you were a recruiter who didn't graduate from UofT and you have two potential applicants (on paper, before interview) and one student from Queen's has a mark of "A-" (which is very common in Queen's) and the UofT student has a "B-" which is also common at UofT -- guess who will get a phone call and who won't??
That's why you indicate your ranking along with your mark. It looks better to be a B- student ranked 30th in the class than it does to be an A- student ranked 50th.

That's why I said, UofT only allows ~20% of students to get a mark higher than B.
You didn't say that, though. Your own words: "Remember, in UofT courses there is a max of 20% of B or higher." There's a big difference between >= B and > B, especially when letter grades offer such little granularity.

Haven't you noticed how the prof reacts when he announces that the class avg is greater than 70? The test after that *will* be harder to force the class avg down.
I've noticed, and I feel the same way. I don't like it when test averages are too high. The whole point is that you are judged relative to your peers. If everybody got 70s or 80s on a test there wouldn't be much to separate the good from the best (and this has happened to me before; I don't like it when my hard work is belittled by overly high test averages).

when did school mean competing against each other? I thought at university we were to foster a network of friends?
I don't feel this way. Low (but often reasonable and even accurate) test averages don't directly encourage competition against each other. I don't know about you, but I don't actively try to compete against my peers. I try my best, but I also try to help out others when they need it. I also don't see how U of T has prevented me from "foster[ing] a network of friends." If you're a total jackass and undeservingly screw people over, I can understand having no friends, but I would think that to be the exception rather than the rule.

At U of T, it's not about how smart you are, but how smart you are relative to your peers.
Isn't this how the world works? When you apply for a job, they don't just look at how smart you are. They look at every applicant and choose the best one for the job. If that's not (at least in part) judging how smart you are relative to your peers, I don't know what is.

Are you saying something is wrong with judging people relative to their peers?

[mritche]

What a bunch of crock....
A student from Queen's with a A- average will get hired over the B- UofT student not because of their marks, but because the Queen's student will be able to present him/her self better. Also, one of the reasons that A- are fairly common at Queen's Commerce, is that the students do really deserve that mark.....They are the creme of the creme students that get admitted to the program. The peer group at queen's is higher, thats why there are more A- students.....

Going to Queen's or Western is like going to a normal North Amercian University.....Going to UofT is like going to a Hong Kong campus of HKU....
Thanks but no thanks.....And I am Asian myself....

In a program like Commerce, communication and social skills are essential.....Most of those HK UofT commies can't even talk properly in English, let alone trying to hold an intelligent conservation during the recruiting sessions or interviews. This IS the main reason why Queen's Commerce students will get hired before the UofT commerce students...Not because of the A- over the B- marks......Even a C student at Queen's will have a better odds than a B- UofT commerce student.

I totally agree with you that it's essential to have communicaton and social skills, but it's ludicrous to lump every single U of T student into the same group. U of T is very Asian, this is true, but that doesn't preclude a U of T undergraduate from having these skills.

That being said, you missed a critical part of Barton03's post where he said "but if you were a recruiter who didn't graduate from UofT and you have two potential applicants (on paper, before interview)." I think it's very clear that Barton03 was talking purely about grades and nothing about social skills.

[mritche]

I always thought the commerce program at Queens is more highly regarded that U of T's.
AFAIK, you're right.

[ibintegra]

During first year at UofT I absolutely hated it. It was so competitive and so difficult to make friends who were interested in being your friends instead of just leeching of your work. I think that it's absolutely fundamental to stay in res for first year, otherwise you will have no friends.

Commuting can be a pain but I enjoy it so I can't really say anything about it.

The thing with the marks is that they try to keep the average at 65% so if your class is doing really well before the exam, prepare to be killed. At least that is my experience. I heard that if a prof allows a course to have a mark over 65% they need to have a written explanation as to why.

I think the low marks is good for the school although bad for the students. That way we won't ever suffer through the problems of Harvard with it's grade inflation. We're always guaranteed that there will be mark parity and the degree doesn't become worthless.

With jobs I think that it's important if you graduate and you don't have any experience. The only thing employers will look at is where you graduated from and maybe even your marks. It's true that compared to other schools our marks our low but if it's a UofT HR person they will probably understand. But if you graduate with no experience you're not going to have much luck finding a job anyways.

[carabunny]

In a program like Commerce, communication and social skills are essential.....Most of those HK UofT commies can't even talk properly in English, let alone trying to hold an intelligent conservation during the recruiting sessions or interviews. This IS the main reason why Queen's Commerce students will get hired before the UofT commerce students...Not because of the A- over the B- marks......Even a C student at Queen's will have a better odds than a B- UofT commerce student.


i just started laughing at the irony.

"can't even talk properly"
can't even speak properly sounds better perhaps.

not in commerce and nothing against you commie. i just found it funny.

[whohoo]

don't know. But you can wait till someone drop it after classes begin ... it always happens...

Anyone know what's going on with the HSS/CS registration, there are no spots left for pretty much all of the EAS/History courses. Anyone knows if they will increase spaces during the second phase of enrollment?

[Barton03]

I don't feel this way. Low (but often reasonable and even accurate) test averages don't directly encourage competition against each other. I don't know about you, but I don't actively try to compete against my peers. I try my best, but I also try to help out others when they need it. I also don't see how U of T has prevented me from "foster[ing] a network of friends." If you're a total jackass and undeservingly screw people over, I can understand having no friends, but I would think that to be the exception rather than the rule.

I am far from screwing anyone over. If anything, I am trying to build a social network for Commerce students (see prev. thread regarding UofT threatening my web site x2). I find that in all my (commerce) courses, everyone is for themselves -- there is no such thing as 'altruistic' actions.

Perhaps it's because I am in Commerce and competition is really stiff right now (with the current upward trend of the market + SOX) the demand for students is high which leads to students feeling pressured to push others so that they themselves can find a higher paying job..I really don't know why someone would do that, but that's besides the point.

Now regarding your reply about the A- & B- UofT student:

The first thing a recruiter does is sort people by a cutoff mark. If you don't make it, then you're cut. Now, how can a UofT student prove that they have social skills if they can't even make it the interview? :confused:

Maybe you are a hardworking student and deserve that 3.8 and have nothing to complain about. Good for you, I'm glad you enjoy UofT, and when you graduate I hope you give back to your university by donating to our scholarships. I, for one, will not even think about giving back a dime to my school -- no thanks.

Btw, how can a student check their rankings? I'm interesting in knowing since I didn't find it on my ROSI record -- perhaps this is an engineering thing only?

It's true that compared to other schools our marks our low but if it's a UofT HR person they will probably understand. But if you graduate with no experience you're not going to have much luck finding a job anyways.

Good luck finding a UofT HR person. But I agree, my boss graduated from UofT and that's why he hired me. He understood ('~6T5) how hard it was back then, but wouldn't send his kid there now due to the high minority concentration.

[yan84]

What a bunch of crock....
A student from Queen's with a A- average will get hired over the B- UofT student not because of their marks, but because the Queen's student will be able to present him/her self better. Also, one of the reasons that A- are fairly common at Queen's Commerce, is that the students do really deserve that mark.....They are the creme of the creme students that get admitted to the program. The peer group at queen's is higher, thats why there are more A- students.....

Going to Queen's or Western is like going to a normal North Amercian University.....Going to UofT is like going to a Hong Kong campus of HKU....
Thanks but no thanks.....And I am Asian myself....

In a program like Commerce, communication and social skills are essential.....Most of those HK UofT commies can't even talk properly in English, let alone trying to hold an intelligent conservation during the recruiting sessions or interviews. This IS the main reason why Queen's Commerce students will get hired before the UofT commerce students...Not because of the A- over the B- marks......Even a C student at Queen's will have a better odds than a B- UofT commerce student.

Thats kinda mean, you sound like a racist who discrimates against chinese immigrants. Just because you're lucky enough to be born here or have come here as a child thus speaking perfect english, doesn't give you the right to criticize others for not having that same opportunity. Picking up a new language is tough, and not being able to speak it fluently has no correlation with the intelligence of the conversation one is capable of holding. I've spoken with brilliant chinese scientists and researchers. All of them speak english with heavy accents and yet they have had numerous awards and believe me, can carry on conversations far more intelligent than you ever could. Also, asian or FOB students are by the far the ones who get the highest marks in the most hardcore subjects like science and math. One's communication skills are only second to one's mind.

[commie]

I totally agree with you that it's essential to have communicaton and social skills, but it's ludicrous to lump every single U of T student into the same group. U of T is very Asian, this is true, but that doesn't preclude a U of T undergraduate from having these skills.

That being said, you missed a critical part of Barton03's post where he said "but if you were a recruiter who didn't graduate from UofT and you have two potential applicants (on paper, before interview)." I think it's very clear that Barton03 was talking purely about grades and nothing about social skills.


You folks have a lot to learn about on-campus recruiting....and how companies do their selections for the 1st round of interviews.

This is my experience with Management Consulting and the CA firms' recruiting practices.
Each year, the firms will determine which universities they will be recruiting at
and the number of new hires they will be hiring.

Then they will post the job ad and hold information sessions at the various universities during September and October....Applications will be accepted, and the companies will select a list of students that they would like to interview for the 1st round of interview on-campus. If the candidate is successful in the 1st round of interview, then he/she is invited to a 2nd interview, which is held at the firm's office.

When firms are choosing which students will be on the list for the 1st round of interviews, the recruiter is looking at the students that have applied from your university. They don't group the applicants with other universities. so you are competing with your peers from your university for a shot at the 1st interview....Its only after the 2nd round of interviews that you MIGHT be compared with other universities if the firms have a Hard cap on their hiring mandate......So the scenario that Barton03 listed is not realistic when it comes to on-campus recruiting.

I have gone through all this couple of times from the perspective of a student in 2 different universities, and have participated as an on-campus recruiter from the consulting firms...

[whohoo]

I am Gerry. What's your name? Do I know you?

I always thought the commerce program at Queens is more highly regarded that U of T's. I recognize two names here, kawai and mritche.

Kawai - I think I sat across from you in the ECE231 labs and a few comps down in the ECE243 lab.
Whohoo - Dunno who you are.

[friend_4ever]

it also depends on the program
yes, perhaps maybe we have more asians than others in the commerce programs at u of t, that doesn't (although im in life sci, most of my friends are in the com. programs here)
and it IS harder to get an A here at ut than it is at queen's or masters, not becuz we are "lesser" according to some ignorant people, its becuz the profs are forced (have been suggested) to maintain certain average (C+ or B-) in our classes (the policy is even mentioned on our website)
but remember, each school has its own top programs and crap programs
u can't just generalize a school based on one or two programs
who are you to judge whether certain people deserve their marks or not?


ps: commie, i didnt think much of queens either, i wasn't even going to apply to queens if it wasnt for the rule that every student has to pay $75 to apply for 3 universities >_<
and queen's material aint that "impressive" or "creme" either, in fact most of the material IS easier by u of t standards
i know this cuz i had to tutor a relative during christmas breaks over the past few years

i see ur asisn too, commie,
have u heard of the tale called.... something like, a frog in a well?

[commie]

Thats kinda mean, you sound like a racist who discrimates against chinese immigrants. Just because you're lucky enough to be born here or have come here as a child thus speaking perfect english, doesn't give you the right to criticize others for not having that same opportunity. Picking up a new language is tough, and not being able to speak it fluently has no correlation with the intelligence of the conversation one is capable of holding. I've spoken with brilliant chinese scientists and researchers. All of them speak english with heavy accents and yet they have had numerous awards and believe me, can carry on conversations far more intelligent than you ever could. Also, asian or FOB students are by the far the ones who get the highest marks in the most hardcore subjects like science and math. One's communication skills are only second to one's mind.

Where in my post did my compare the intelligence of the students? My comments relate to getting a job after graduation. More specificly getting a job with a commerce degree. Where its not what is know that is important, but its how you present yourself.

I have no problems with new immigrants(whether they are Asian or other nationality) who tries their best in integrating with the Canadian society. They deserve all the credit for trying to participate and speak english whenever possible.
What I find troublesome, is when you visit the UofT campus, you see many groups/pockets of people and they would be speaking in their native language. If half the class size is HK and speaking chinese during class, how does that help the learning experience...And have you ever been to a company recruiting event at UofT? I have been there numerous times as a rep from my firm, and its a pretty sad sight....

PS. High marks does not always equal to one's intelligence or ultimate success......
Look at some of the successful executives.....alot of them are just average students with average marks....some are even football players.....
What they have in common is good social and communication skills....

[Barton03]

You folks have a lot to learn about on-campus recruiting....and how companies do their selections for the 1st round of interviews.

This is my experience with Management Consulting and the CA firms' recruiting practices.
Each year, the firms will determine which universities they will be recruiting at
and the number of new hires they will be hiring.

Then they will post the job ad and hold information sessions at the various universities during September and October....Applications will be accepted, and the companies will select a list of students that they would like to interview for the 1st round of interview on-campus. If the candidate is successful in the 1st round of interview, then he/she is invited to a 2nd interview, which is held at the firm's office.

When firms are choosing which students will be on the list for the 1st round of interviews, the recruiter is looking at the students that have applied from your university. They don't group the applicants with other universities. so you are competing with your peers from your university for a shot at the 1st interview....Its only after the 2nd round of interviews that you MIGHT be compared with other universities if the firms have a Hard cap on their hiring mandate......So the scenario that Barton03 listed is not realistic when it comes to on-campus recruiting.

I have gone through all this couple of times from the perspective of a student in 2 different universities, and have participated as an on-campus recruiter from the consulting firms...

OK, you misinterpreted my points:

- UofT recruiters know what kind of students attend UofT and automatically judge that our commerce program is full of minorities..which unfortunately is stereotyped into thinking that we all can't communicate. If you are in commerce, I'm sure you have first hand experience how commerce students react to recruiting sessions.


- If you are not applying for a CA firm, you will probably go through the Career Centre. Firms don't just apply to UofT, they also apply to *many* diff. universities -- so they will have a pool of applicants from various universities. And students of UofT will be compared against to other universities.


Does that help clear things up?

Note: let's try to keep this a clean & intelligent discussion as much as possible. ie: Don't be racist.

[CSR]

Wow, makes me second guess my choice of going to Uof T.

[yan84]

Where in my post did my compare the intelligence of the students? My comments relate to getting a job after graduation. More specificly getting a job with a commerce degree. Where its not what is know that is important, but its how you present yourself.

I have no problems with new immigrants(whether they are Asian or other nationality) who tries their best in integrating with the Canadian society. They deserve all the credit for trying to participate and speak english whenever possible.
What I find troublesome, is when you visit the UofT campus, you see many groups/pockets of people and they would be speaking in their native language. If half the class size is HK and speaking chinese during class, how does that help the learning experience...And have you ever been to a company recruiting event at UofT? I have been there numerous times as a rep from my firm, and its a pretty sad sight....

PS. High marks does not always equal to one's intelligence or ultimate success......
Look at some of the successful executives.....alot of them are just average students with average marks....some are even football players.....
What they have in common is good social and communication skills....

True..I agree that many immigrants don't put themselves out there and try to blend in with the mainstream...but its understandable that it's hard to let go of your roots and to get along with local people with whom you have absolutely no common background with.

And high marks do equal to one's ultimate success..depends on what field you're looking at I suppose.. ;) For business, I guess it doesn't, but I wouldn't know. In the field of science like medicine however, you won't get anywhere without outstanding grades.

[divx]

have u heard of the tale called.... something like, a frog in a well?

no, do explain

[whohoo]

This thread reminds me of the ECE299 forum. :cheesygri

[Barton03]

Can I ask current UofT undergraduate students two questions:

1) Would you come back to UofT if you had a choice to another medical doctoral university (ie MAC, Western, Queen's)?
2) Would you recommend a friend to come to UofT?

Let's try to be constructive here and help out potential High School students?

edit: Medical Doctoral is a name given to universities that offer medical programs. ie: does not include Trent, Lakehead. We need to compare apples to apples not grapes to apples. Medical doctoral does not mean I am asking about Life Sci.

[CSR]

Can I ask current UofT undergraduate students two questions:

1) Would you come back to UofT if you had a choice to another medical doctoral university (ie MAC, Western, Queen's)?
2) Would you recommend a friend to come to UofT?

Let's try to be constructive here and help out potential High School students?


TOO LATE!

[Barton03]

[/B]


TOO LATE!

I thought you were in like 2 yr .. in that case, "WELCOME TO UofT!"!! :D

but seriously,

one advantage of coming to UofT I've found is the extensive resources. Although no one will show you, you have to find this stuff our yourself. Go to the library and ASK! Don't be afraid. UofT has the largest libraries and richest information commons in all of Canada -- make use of it (I only found out about this midway through 2nd year). That's probably why our grad program is so reputable; all the money gets spent there.

[CSR]

I thought you were in like 2 yr .. in that cast, "WELCOME TO UofT!"!! :D
1st yr

[friend_4ever]

well, it does take good academic record to score a good job in the future, especially when u need decent marks for graduate schools

beside, a lot of students here at ut commerce are visa students, many "chinese speaking" (the ones commie talked about) are aimming to return to their country of origin once they graduate, they may benefit just as much from their peers as one would at queens
so stayin with their "homies" does not necessarily make them lesser students than the "precious" queens students

its just so wrong to stereotype a graduate immediately based on his/her school,
commie, what have they been teachin u at queens?

[JL2002]

I go to UTSC, really i'm not even sure if I'm in a university or not...I just go in for a 1 hr lecture and/or 3 hr lab and then go home....at least high school keep me there for at least 6hrs...I just dun feel like I'm a University Student rite now....And tho I dun have any experience of other schools, i think they are pretty lazy and harsh in determining ur marks. I, as a Life Science student almost never have any homework, and I mean hardly except for lab. and courses like Psychology base ur 100% mark on 100 multiple choice questions (50midterm and 50final) which takes them what? 2 secs to mark using scantron.

The prof and TA, on the other hand, i seriously am not trying to make any racist comments, but they're either Sri Lankans, Germans or Chinese who could either hardly speak any english (especially my TA who is a chinese) or have an accent and my chem Prof speaks as fast as hell with her crappy accent and everyone is like WTF!? did she just said?.....

Our new lecture hall, compared to the new one at Centennial, ours look like crap. Centennial made a 2 story lecture hall (2 lecture hall) and we only have one. our seats are so damn small and tight compared to theirs and the building overall looks like crap compared to theirs....

[MizTEcK]

just try to not let the hardness get to you... that's all, dont stress yourself out. BTW a ut graduate has just as much chance of getting a job as any other university. Remember the jobs where they actually look at your transcript is only a tiny fraction of the job pool. With an undergrad degree, it wont be an executive or any highend position anyhow, so experience in the field is more important than where u got your degree from

[MizTEcK]

I go to UTSC, really i'm not even sure if I'm in a university or not...I just go in for a 1 hr lecture and/or 3 hr lab and then go home....at least high school keep me there for at least 6hrs...I just dun feel like I'm a University Student rite now....And tho I dun have any experience of other schools, i think they are pretty lazy and harsh in determining ur marks. I, as a Life Science student almost never have any homework, and I mean hardly except for lab. and courses like Psychology base ur 100% mark on 100 multiple choice questions (50midterm and 50final) which takes them what? 2 secs to mark using scantron.

The prof and TA, on the other hand, i seriously am not trying to make any racist comments, but they're either Sri Lankans, Germans or Chinese who could either hardly speak any english (especially my TA who is a chinese) or have an accent and my chem Prof speaks as fast as hell with her crappy accent and everyone is like WTF!? did she just said?.....

Our new lecture hall, compared to the new one at Centennial, ours look like crap. Centennial made a 2 story lecture hall (2 lecture hall) and we only have one. our seats are so damn small and tight compared to theirs and the building overall looks like crap compared to theirs....

lol that sux... that's scarlem for you hahha jks

[b166er1337]

Can I ask current UofT undergraduate students two questions:

1) Would you come back to UofT if you had a choice to another medical doctoral university (ie MAC, Western, Queen's)?
2) Would you recommend a friend to come to UofT?

Let's try to be constructive here and help out potential High School students?

1) No UT >:( . Definately Queens or McGill. For life science students, a bachelor degree is simply not enough. Now i am applying for grad school, my low GPA (~2.0) is making it that much harder. On other grad shcool discussion forum, lots of ppl are complaining their GPA (2.8, 3.1) is too low. I was like...WTF :confused:

Oh well, at least UT is ranked #24 in the world. So i can't complain too much. :)
http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2005/ARWU2005_Top100.htm


2) It depends. If Bachelor degree is all the person wants, then by all means, he should come to UT. It will be challenging, but so does the real world.
On the other hand, if the person wishes to pursue master's degree or MBA, then go to a bird school (York ;) ) to inflate the GPA. It will be more useful when applying for grad schools.

[Barton03]

well, it does take good academic record to score a good job in the future, especially when u need decent marks for graduate schools

beside, a lot of students here at ut commerce are visa students, many "chinese speaking" (the ones commie talked about) are aimming to return to their country of origin once they graduate, they may benefit just as much from their peers as one would at queens
so stayin with their "homies" does not necessarily make them lesser students than the "precious" queens students

its just so wrong to stereotype a graduate immediately based on his/her school,
commie, what have they been teachin u at queens?

I think you bring up an interesting point: do you think that a student learns more from a textbook or from their peers? Does it take a village to bring up a child or a single person? It's all about your surroundings, if everyone around you are anti-social (or in this case, non-english speaking) then you are at a disadvantage compared to others. In university, it's all about the journey; the goal is important (getting that paper) but the journey is what you will remember many years down the road. I can honestly tell you, I'm glad I found a job during the summer that helped me open my eyes and see how valuable interpersonal skills are in the workplace: you either lead or be lead.

[yan84]

1) No UT >:( . Definately Queens or McGill. For life science students, a bachelor degree is simply not enough. Now i am applying for grad school, my low GPA (~2.0) is making it that much harder. On other grad shcool discussion forum, lots of ppl are complaining their GPA (2.8, 3.1) is too low. I was like...WTF :confused:

Oh well, at least UT is ranked #24 in the world. So i can't complain too much. :)
http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2005/ARWU2005_Top100.htm


2) It depends. If Bachelor degree is all the person wants, then by all means, he should come to UT. It will be challenging, but so does the real world.
On the other hand, if the person wishes to pursue master's degree or MBA, then go to a bird school (York ;) ) to inflate the GPA. It will be more useful when applying for grad schools.

Yah...bachelor in life sci is not enough... :| ..which reminds me...should start looking for potential grad schools soon...

[friend_4ever]

no, do explain

well, i said that in response to commie's generalized bias against uoft students
chinese people should at least heard about this b4, its the story about the frog trapped under a well, all he sees is the sky, so he thinks the rest of the world is just that small circular opening
its similar to commie's comments in a way that commie thinks his school has the highest in standard becuz he doesnt know what it really is like in other schools

[friend_4ever]

Yah...bachelor in life sci is not enough... :| ..which reminds me...should start looking for potential grad schools soon...
i hear u, man

mcat next week, gre next month, my summer is gone,

[0T6]

Can I ask current UofT undergraduate students two questions:

1) Would you come back to UofT if you had a choice to another medical doctoral university (ie MAC, Western, Queen's)?
2) Would you recommend a friend to come to UofT?

Let's try to be constructive here and help out potential High School students?

1) The MD program at UT and the Life Sci program are seperate entities and in that sense it's hard to compare. (I did 3 years of Life Sci at UT and will be starting my MD at Ottawa in September). If you're just going into 1st year, focus on undergrad before worrying about what school you're going to for your MD.

I, apparently unlike many others posting in this thread, had a fairly positive experience at UofT. I met some good people (and unfortunately some bad), had some good times (of course limitedly), got to know profs, had some semblance of a life, and managed to do well academically. It's by no means impossible but takes a lot of effort and might require some changes from high school.

2) Yes, I would, if he or she is willing to work their ass of for a good grade and if they will and know how to take advantage of the school's resources. If they're going to university just for a degree.. go anywhere, it doesn't matter.

PS. friend_4ever.. wut up t-dawg? ;)

[yan84]

i hear u, man

mcat next week, gre next month, my summer is gone,

Which program are you in? :-0

[burnthemascotindustry]

The prof and TA, on the other hand, i seriously am not trying to make any racist comments, but they're either Sri Lankans, Germans or Chinese who could either hardly speak any english (especially my TA who is a chinese) or have an accent and my chem Prof speaks as fast as hell with her crappy accent and everyone is like WTF!? did she just said?.....

A Chinese? Are you kidding me? Chinese is not a noun, it's a race, and I don't really think you are in any position to be mocking others for their language proficiency when you clearly cannot spell, articulate ideas, or utilize proper grammar in your ridiculous ranting.

Anyway. I'm entering my first year at Saint George Campus this September, and here's what I think.

First of all, I'm going into residence at Victoria College, so as far as my social lif is concerned, I'm not too worried.

Secondly, as the distinct minority of this forum, I am white, and pursuing an arts degree. This does a little to emancipate myself from most of your criticisms as competition in my field is not as important as it is to a commerce or engineering student.

That said, if I were a commuter student, I would certainly agree with you. But really, a commuter student anywhere isn't going to make a lot of friends.

[0T6]

yan.. ur an IMM specialist I'm guessing?

burn.. I commuted, I made friends. Like I said before, if you want to do something, you can, but it might take a bit more work.

[yan84]

yan.. ur an IMM specialist I'm guessing?

burn.. I commuted, I made friends. Like I said before, if you want to do something, you can, but it might take a bit more work.

Ooh i'd hate to be an IMM specialist after that killer IMM334.. Im in LMP...and congrats on making into med school!

[friend_4ever]

hahaha, OT6, u had me there when i saw ur "3yr at ut and starting MD at ottawa in fall" haha, small world, dude, small world

but i agree with u, the whole experience at ut wasnt bad at all,
classes were huge in first year but a lot of small-sized (40 or less students to 1 prof) in upper years
lots of opportunities for u to meet profs, talk to them, work for/with them,
don't forget that the school is located in downtown toronto
many profs here are affiliated with the outside world (lots of econ/financial profs do work for companies in downtown, lots of lifesci profs work at the many hospitals on university ave., etc) so GREAT opportunities!

[friend_4ever]

Which program are you in? :-0
human bio biotech, u?

[0T6]

Thanks yan :) Are you going into 3rd or 4th year?

Like friend_4ever said.. there ARE so many opportunities at UT that just aren't available at other schools.. so I think what distinguishes the people who enjoy their experience from the haters is whether they took advantage of those opps.

[kawai]

I always thought the commerce program at Queens is more highly regarded that U of T's. I recognize two names here, kawai and mritche.

Kawai - I think I sat across from you in the ECE231 labs and a few comps down in the ECE243 lab.
Whohoo - Dunno who you are.

hmmm, what's your name? Me and my partner kept switching stations in 231 because our original station was cursed :|

[CSR]

Check out this page:

http://www.utsc.utoronto.ca/~02rybakj/primer.html#section24

"The grading curve

As amazing at it may seem, students also frequently don’t understand the way they are being graded. You’d think it would matter enough that people would figure it out no matter how complicated it may be, but that frequently isn’t the case. Most often students shy away from the one, basic fact of evaluation that is uncomfortable to look at, so here it is. Your grades are awarded based on the quality of your work relative to the quality of the work produced by the students around you. You are in direct competition with your fellow students. However much the system may be designed to obscure this fact, it is an inalterable truth. There is no absolute standard of what constitutes “good” work. “Good” is defined as better than the majority of everyone else. It’s that simple. And the result is a grading curve.

The university has a standard distribution of grades that is expected from any large course (over 30 students) and that is one manifestation of the curve, but that certainly isn’t all. Most science and math students have seen the curve in operation at least a couple of times, and are quite aware of how it works. When answers are either right or wrong, with no shades of grey, the results are often curved in some way to arrive at a normal distribution. So when a student gets 65/100 on a midterm but the results were unusually low and everyone’s grade gets multiplied by 1.05% to arrive at 68/100 the system is pretty bald. But even outside of math and science the same principle is in operation. Students of humanities and social sciences almost never see the curve in the same way, but when essays, midterms, and finals are being graded (in which long answers and writing figure heavily) the work is absolutely being measured against the average of the whole, with the net effect being that the results are essentially pre-curved. I even know some instructors who go through multiple rounds of grading, sorting first by general range (either A, B, C, etc.) and then going through each pile to grade more finely.

If it helps, to soften what seem to be some awful implications of this system, the expected distribution of grades is not written in stone. If you happen to be in a really exceptional group of students for one course you won’t be penalized for it and there are ways your instructor can go about justifying an “unusual” set of grades for a particular course. But this doesn’t change the fact that your grades are still relative to the work of other students, it just means that we’ve expanded the sample size. Your group of students this year is “exceptional” precisely because it’s notably better than last year’s students, or the students from the year before. So it is still a standard relative to other students, it just allows room to acknowledge that statistical quirks do happen.

Doing “well,” and competition

I’m not out to prove university is inherently competitive to make anyone miserable or to encourage you to view your fellow students as opponents in the eternal struggle for grades, but rather to draw attention to the fact that this is happening and actually happens all the time and everywhere. Competition is, for good or for ill, a reality of life. The university could graduate every student with an A average, but if the average was suddenly 85% across the board then 85% wouldn’t really mean anything anymore. It would take a 90% or more to get into graduate or professional school. The simple fact is that there are limited spaces in these schools and they need to be assigned somehow. Many people rebel at the idea of direct competition because it seems somehow mean and ugly but that’s just the way it is. Many students are also concerned about doing “well” and so they are discouraged by the thought that there are so many capable students around them and they can only get top grades by being even better than all the other good students. It’s a tough position to be in. The grading curve is real and in fact it’s always been there, even all through high school and before. But at university the entire bottom end of the curve has fallen away and now the whole thing gets redistributed. Students who at one time did quite well find they are getting poor marks and don’t know why. Well, here it is. Doing “poorly” is as relative an issue as doing “well,” and so long as the standard is exclusively against everyone else someone will always be doing poorly. That doesn’t mean failing, by the way, because the grading curve doesn’t require that anyone be failing. It does require that some students receive Cs, however.

As far as grades are concerned the measure of doing well will always be relative, but that is not the only standard of doing “well.” After all, what are your goals after undergraduate university, and what are your intentions? What do you want to do with your degree? Depending on your answer, your personal standard of doing “well” may require either As (if your goal is graduate school) or Cs (if your goal is just to graduate and find a job). Equally important, another standard of doing well is to understand your normal levels of performance and to try to exceed them. Almost no one transforms from a C student overnight into an A student. If you find you are typically getting Cs then getting a B- should be considered an improvement and an achievement of sorts. Pay attention to what you did and try to build on that improvement. Similarly, if you are typically getting As then your personal standards of success should reflect that, and even an A- or a B+ is reasonable cause for concern, because you’ll want to know why you are slipping. These are entirely personal standards that have nothing to do with the grades anyone else is getting. So do your best, try not to let it get to you, and remember that the only real measure of doing “well” or “badly” should be a personal one. Measure yourself against your goals and against the standards that are realistic for you. Your grades may be determined relative to the standard of everyone else’s work, but deciding whether or not they meet your standards and goals will always be an entirely personal judgment, as it should be. " -Jeff Rybak(Author of Page)

[GTABuySell]

Ok, let me rephrase the question:

Do you know anyone who would recommend a friend/family member to attend UofT for undergrad?

also, I think most people who attend UofT don't know how *bad* student life here is .. they think that since it's so reputable it must be good.

Personally, I won't want my children to attend U of T Engineering for undergrad (can't say about other programs) for most of the reasons already mentioned in this thread.

I had no student/social life during my years at U of T. I have been in the work force for over 10 years and can tell you that the U of T name still gives you a bit of an advantage over Ryerson (just my observation at my work).

[gordholio]

I went to Georgian College years ago and I found the college to be very good and the school spirit was good too.

[mritche]

I am far from screwing anyone over. If anything, I am trying to build a social network for Commerce students (see prev. thread regarding UofT threatening my web site x2). I find that in all my (commerce) courses, everyone is for themselves -- there is no such thing as 'altruistic' actions.
That sucks to hear. In engineering there is still the "look out for number one" instinct, but it isn't to the total exclusion of everyone else. I can honestly say in some respects it feels like a big family. ECE itself is small enough that you can build up a rapport with a lot of your peers, especially because you're in the same class as they are for the first two years.

It's probably not the same in Arts & Science where you're routinely in 1000-person classes (in contrast nearly all of my ECE classes have been 80 people or less with the exception of a few lectures for which it didn't really matter). There's a definite sense of community even if there are a handful of complete and total jackasses.

The first thing a recruiter does is sort people by a cutoff mark. If you don't make it, then you're cut. Now, how can a UofT student prove that they have social skills if they can't even make it the interview? :confused:

If they do it solely based on grades (and don't look at ranking at all) then you're right, you're going to lose out. I don't really have a solution to this other than to work harder and earn the marks to go with those social skills. ;)

To be honest, I don't think engineering marks in particular are so low as to cause a problem with this. I actually think marks are pretty reasonable (our averages are almost always C+ or B- but I've seen as low as C- and as high as B). The way it works is usually this: tough midterms and exams, easy labs and assignments, then a bell curve afterwards. From what I've heard of engineering at Ryerson, the marks aren't really all that different and some are even lower.

Maybe you are a hardworking student and deserve that 3.8 and have nothing to complain about.
Actually, I'm a hardworking student and deserve that 4.0 and have a few small things of little consequence to complain about. :cheesygri

Btw, how can a student check their rankings? I'm interesting in knowing since I didn't find it on my ROSI record -- perhaps this is an engineering thing only?
I'm afraid it might be an engineering-only thing. We call it Gradereport and it's available at http://www.apsc.utoronto.ca/gradereport/. You might want to talk to administrators in Commerce and see if they'll provide you with rankings.

This thread reminds me the ECE299 forum. :cheesygri
Ah, memories :D. It's too bad they wiped the forum clean before I managed to archive it. You wouldn't happen to know anyone who ripped it, would you?

1) Would you come back to UofT if you had a choice to another medical doctoral university (ie MAC, Western, Queen's)?
2) Would you recommend a friend to come to UofT?

1) I'd most likely have to say yes. I have no qualms with my education thus far at U of T. My social life wasn't as active as it was in high school, but I made the concious decision to live at home so it's pretty much a non-issue for me. For electrical/computer engineering, had I not chosen U of T, I would have considerd Waterloo and Queen's as close seconds. I've heard good things about both schools' engineering faculties.

2) It depends on the friend. I came to university for the academics first and foremost. In that regard I couldn't really be happier. When it comes to engineering you'll get out exactly what you put in. If you're determined and a very hard worker, actually want to be studying your major, and you're going to live on campus (or live at home and are a naturally social person) you'll probably be successful. If you're looking for a party school or a place to coast, U of T is not where you should be.

[jlam83]

A Chinese? Are you kidding me? Chinese is not a noun, it's a race, and I don't really think you are in any position to be mocking others for their language proficiency when you clearly cannot spell, articulate ideas, or utilize proper grammar in your ridiculous ranting.

Anyway. I'm entering my first year at Saint George Campus this September, and here's what I think.

First of all, I'm going into residence at Victoria College, so as far as my social lif is concerned, I'm not too worried.

Secondly, as the distinct minority of this forum, I am white, and pursuing an arts degree. This does a little to emancipate myself from most of your criticisms as competition in my field is not as important as it is to a commerce or engineering student.

That said, if I were a commuter student, I would certainly agree with you. But really, a commuter student anywhere isn't going to make a lot of friends.

Since you have not actually been enrolled in a UofT lecture/tutorial, you may not fully understand and agree with what the previous person said. But i'd have to agree that prof/TAs with heavy accents make taking notes and learning more difficult than it already is; but thank god more and more courses are adopting webCT and other online facilities.

Also, the infamous BELL CURVE is often criticized as an unfair system, but maybe its just me, but i've never been negatively influenced by it, my mark benefits from it most of the time. maybe because class averages in UofT are SOOOOOO low.

[Hardtarget]

meh UofT

come out to UBC, that's a real man's university!

[NiMSo]

Ooh i'd hate to be an IMM specialist after that killer IMM334.. Im in LMP...

Oh Gosh, IMM334!!!... That was one of the cruelest courses I ever took. If you removed that from my record, my GPA would jump a few points :lol:. It was a full year of agony...

Way too much material... :|

[yan84]

Oh Gosh, IMM334!!!... That was one of the cruelest courses I ever took. If you removed that from my record, my GPA would jump a few points :lol:. It was a full year of agony...

Way too much material... :|

Thats why I had to defer it....and the exam is this coming Tuesday, OMG!! :|

[NiMSo]

Thats why I had to defer it....and the exam is this coming Tuesday, OMG!! :|

I studied very hard for that exam (I started several weeks in advance), and yet I still did not manage to get through all of the material in a thorough manner! :|
If only somebody had warned me not to take that course... (it was not required for my program, but I thought it'd be interesting :razz: )

But anyways, I hope I'm not freaking you out.
Good luck! :)

[yan84]

I studied very hard for that exam (I started several weeks in advance), and yet I still did not manage to get through all of the material in a thorough manner! :|
If only somebody had warned me not to take that course... (it was not required for my program, but I thought it'd be interesting :razz: )

But anyways, I hope I'm not freaking you out.
Good luck! :)

haha tahts crazy..taking that course out of interest...BAD MISTAKE :D Well anyways..i've already been studying everyday for over a month (!!)...so sick of it jsut wanna get it over with. Oh and i'll let you know about the PSL tests soon, thanks :)

[Daboss]

Here's one for you guys. I am a graduate of UofT. I finished with an Hon. BSc with high distinction (MAJ Human Biology & MAJ Human Physiology). I am currently doing a joint MD/MBA at McGill University, and can say without a doubt that attending UofT was the single worst experience of my life. I got the marks, but the stress, politics, and sacrifice just wasn't worth it in the end.

I saw many of my diligent and hard working friends loose sight of their hopes and dreams because of the negative and ultimately self-destructive learning environment that UofT fosters and embraces. Nervous breakdowns, anxiety disorders, and panic attacks seem to be a little too prevalent at this school. I’ve observed all three MULTIPLE times.

To keep things succinct I'll just quickly list the reasons as to why this place is really the Mecca of debauched and corrupt education:.

The "C" Curve: Study hard, but all you'll get is a 60%-65%.. The odds are just not in your favor. The administration calls for a C class average….so that is what the professors are going to give them.

"Weeding": There are just too many students in almost all first year courses. They have to get the numbers down, so try as you may, you’re going to fail, and eventually change programs.

False accusations of cheating and plagiarism: Doing well in a course? Perhaps too well? If it sounds too good, or you’re always getting A's what better way to throw someone off their game by telling them it's not their work. Yes, I know of at least 10 cases of students who were accused of cheating and plagiarism. They all had to endure a year long judicial style process before all the charges against them were eventually dropped. Needless to say, the stress ended up brining their marks down to "acceptable" levels.

Everyone is your enemy: In my first year BIO class (which had 1200 students), , I witnessed a student grab well over 200 class handouts, walk over the garbage, and throw them out. I have seen students tearing pages out of library books so no one else can get that precious information. Think people are your friends....think again.


I could have gone to York, got a 4.0 GPA standing on my head, had a social life, and still ended up with my MD/MBA.


Do yourself a favor.....avoid UofT like the plague.

GO TO YORK AND GET AN A!!!

[Spyder187]

Lots of University's do that averaging thing, imo or it could be just the better ones. Like what I heard from a friend at UBC, you will compete with other students in your class. If you are one of the ones on the bottom, you won't be seeing a good mark at all. If you're average, you'll be seeing like a B very often which isn't bad at all. Some kids will get stressed out for an A because that's what they got in high school but the truth of the matter is that high school doesn't prepare you much for the kind of grades you'll get in university (at least not the ones here).

[BEpsilon]

You don't get it. When it takes you 1.5 hours to commute ONE WAY, you'd be exhausted by the end of the day and just wanna go home and get some rest after classes are over. Like if I have classes from 9-3, I basically have to leave home at 7:30am and come back at 5. Especially during midterm or exam periods, I'd like to leave ASAP so I can start studying as early as possible. Most commuters just won't have the time or mood to join after class activities and what not.


You will be glad to know that you're not alone. Yes, I am a commuter, and I share the EXACT same feeling. Home in Richmond, school in Burnaby/Surrey, 45-60 minute drive each way (more during rush-hours). I love driving, but commuting isn't fun.

[yan84]

Here's one for you guys. I am a graduate of UofT. I finished with an Hon. BSc with high distinction (MAJ Human Biology & MAJ Human Physiology). I am currently doing a joint MD/MBA at McGill University, and can say without a doubt that attending UofT was the single worst experience of my life. I got the marks, but the stress, politics, and sacrifice just wasn't worth it in the end.

I saw many of my diligent and hard working friends loose sight of their hopes and dreams because of the negative and ultimately self-destructive learning environment that UofT fosters and embraces. Nervous breakdowns, anxiety disorders, and panic attacks seem to be a little too prevalent at this school. I’ve observed all three MULTIPLE times.

To keep things succinct I'll just quickly list the reasons as to why this place is really the Mecca of debauched and corrupt education:.

The "C" Curve: Study hard, but all you'll get is a 60%-65%.. The odds are just not in your favor. The administration calls for a C class average….so that is what the professors are going to give them.

"Weeding": There are just too many students in almost all first year courses. They have to get the numbers down, so try as you may, you’re going to fail, and eventually change programs.

False accusations of cheating and plagiarism: Doing well in a course? Perhaps too well? If it sounds too good, or you’re always getting A's what better way to throw someone off their game by telling them it's not their work. Yes, I know of at least 10 cases of students who were accused of cheating and plagiarism. They all had to endure a year long judicial style process before all the charges against them were eventually dropped. Needless to say, the stress ended up brining their marks down to "acceptable" levels.

Everyone is your enemy: In my first year BIO class (which had 1200 students), , I witnessed a student grab well over 200 class handouts, walk over the garbage, and throw them out. I have seen students tearing pages out of library books so no one else can get that precious information. Think people are your friends....think again.


I could have gone to York, got a 4.0 GPA standing on my head, had a social life, and still ended up with my MD/MBA.


Do yourself a favor.....avoid UofT like the plague.

GO TO YORK AND GET AN A!!!

I guess your "C curve" and "weeding" examples apply only to students who slack off, have no time management or proper studying skills to thrive in demanding and hardcore subjects, are not determined enough and give up too easily after a couple of bad marks. These people won't succeed in the long run even if they manage to get B's in York. And everyone I've met during my three short years at UofT cannot be more helpful. In my program, study groups are constantly formed and notes are exchanged frequently. People basically help each other out to get through the hardcore subjects, and keep in mind that almost 90% of ppl from my program aims for med school, so the competition is enormous. But you're right, there are many routes to the same destination, the one through UofT isn't the smoothest, but I think it builds character ;)

[squall458]

Oh Gosh, IMM334!!!... That was one of the cruelest courses I ever took. If you removed that from my record, my GPA would jump a few points :lol:. It was a full year of agony...

Way too much material... :|
agh horrible memories! ratcliff was awesome, the dude from st mikes i think, who looked gay, wore black all the time was freakin the hardest part imo. forgot his name cuz i blanked it all out of my mind.

[RaynorWolfcastle]

Hmmm... interesting thread. I'm entering my last semester as a McGill EE major and I find it surprising that the desired grade standard at UofT is a C. Either you guys are exaggerating (which I think is the case) or half the class is failing.

I don't know how it works at UofT but at McGill, the lettering scheme goes C+ -> C -> D -> F. Where both D and F require you to repeat the course to take any follow up classes. Unless UofT has a different policy regarding this, a C average would basically mean typically only about half the class passes, which I think is a little absurd.

I think that at most universities, McGill included, teachers are aiming for a class average in the B range. As a matter a fact, looking at my transcript most of the averages for my classes are either B or B- with an occasional B+ (and a few C+ or Cs where half the class DID fail).

Personally, the whole "UofT grades too hard" sounds like sour grapes from people having trouble keeping up with the curve (which I assure you McGill uses extensively to get averages in the B range). In the end, just like anywhere in life, your performance relative to your peers is what matters, and if you're still terribly worried about your GPA realize that after you get your first job no one will care about it.

[Barton03]

Hmmm... interesting thread. I'm entering my last semester as a McGill EE major and I find it surprising that the desired grade standard at UofT is a C. Either you guys are exaggerating (which I think is the case) or half the class is failing.

I don't know how it works at UofT but at McGill, the lettering scheme goes C+ -> C -> D -> F. Where both D and F require you to repeat the course to take any follow up classes. Unless UofT has a different policy regarding this, a C average would basically mean typically only about half the class passes, which I think is a little absurd.

I think that at most universities, McGill included, teachers are aiming for a class average in the B range. As a matter a fact, looking at my transcript most of the averages for my classes are either B or B- with an occasional B+ (and a few C+ or Cs where half the class DID fail).

Personally, the whole "UofT grades too hard" sounds like sour grapes from people having trouble keeping up with the curve (which I assure you McGill uses extensively to get averages in the B range). In the end, just like anywhere in life, your performance relative to your peers is what matters, and if you're still terribly worried about your GPA realize that after you get your first job no one will care about it.

You dont understand the situation @ UofT.

A C is considered 'average' grade. 65 is an "OK" mark at UofT. Most people in a class will end up with a mark between 62-75 (ie, C to B range). Of course, not half the class will fail, but most (perhaps about 60%) of the class will get a mark from 67-73.

This is not a case of sour grapes, if you know anyone that goes to UofT -- why not ask them? You can get a real life answer and not rely on ours. And I agree with you, most profs aim for avgs of about B, but not at UofT. A 'B' is for a student who is slightly above average.

[furbaby]

its just to prove that if you do get B and higher, you do go better in life compared to someone who does get a B (neglecting all other factors - ie. networking)

http://www.cdf.toronto.edu/~g4wang/Academic/transcript_uoft.htm

I'm sure this guy does A LOT BETTER than ANYONE else!

By the way, I agree, UofT is a lot harder to get a good grade than a lot of other schools in the same tier. :lol: You can still get a pretty good grades, just that you have to work your butts off. I went took a bio course at Ryerson after I graduated from UofT. I didn't even study, but still got an A+....

[Barton03]

http://www.cdf.toronto.edu/~g4wang/Academic/transcript_uoft.htm

I'm sure this guy does A LOT BETTER than ANYONE else!

Seems like the class avgs in year 1 and 2 are in the Cs, while upper years are around Bs..perhaps I may be better off this year! *cross fingers*

[furbaby]

Seems like the class avgs in year 1 and 2 are in the Cs, while upper years are around Bs..perhaps I may be better off this year! *cross fingers*


That's probably because those upper level classes are so hard that no one takes it. There's probably only 5 people, or I mean, nerds, in the class.

[Barton03]

That's probably because those classes are so hard that no one takes it. There's probably only 5 people, or I mean, nerds, in the class.

Oops, I replied too fast -- he's taking Comp. Sci!! I took an intro to Comp Sci in 2nd year (as an elective) .. and it was not very enjoyable. You either know it, or you don't. Just like ice cream, either you like chocolate or you don't.

[CSR]

http://www.cdf.toronto.edu/~g4wang/Academic/transcript_uoft.htm

I'm sure this guy does A LOT BETTER than ANYONE else!

By the way, I agree, UofT is a lot harder to get a good grade than a lot of other schools in the same tier. :lol: You can still get a pretty good grades, just that you have to work your butts off. I went took a bio course at Ryerson after I graduated from UofT. I didn't even study, but still got an A+....

Try understanding this: http://www.cdf.toronto.edu/~g4wang/Files/344Essay.pdf

[furbaby]

I guess your "C curve" and "weeding" examples apply only to students who slack off, have no time management or proper studying skills to thrive in demanding and hardcore subjects, are not determined enough and give up too easily after a couple of bad marks. These people won't succeed in the long run even if they manage to get B's in York. And everyone I've met during my three short years at UofT cannot be more helpful. In my program, study groups are constantly formed and notes are exchanged frequently. People basically help each other out to get through the hardcore subjects, and keep in mind that almost 90% of ppl from my program aims for med school, so the competition is enormous. But you're right, there are many routes to the same destination, the one through UofT isn't the smoothest, but I think it builds character ;)

The C curve is actually true... or at least to my understanding it's a C+ curve. I heard from one of my profs that if a prof gives a classes average of B too often, she/he's required to write a statement to the department stating the reason why the class "did so well"

[0T6]

Here's one for you guys. I am a graduate of UofT. I finished with an Hon. BSc with high distinction (MAJ Human Biology & MAJ Human Physiology). I am currently doing a joint MD/MBA at McGill University, and can say without a doubt that attending UofT was the single worst experience of my life. I got the marks, but the stress, politics, and sacrifice just wasn't worth it in the end.

I saw many of my diligent and hard working friends loose sight of their hopes and dreams because of the negative and ultimately self-destructive learning environment that UofT fosters and embraces. Nervous breakdowns, anxiety disorders, and panic attacks seem to be a little too prevalent at this school. I’ve observed all three MULTIPLE times.

To keep things succinct I'll just quickly list the reasons as to why this place is really the Mecca of debauched and corrupt education:.

The "C" Curve: Study hard, but all you'll get is a 60%-65%.. The odds are just not in your favor. The administration calls for a C class average….so that is what the professors are going to give them.

"Weeding": There are just too many students in almost all first year courses. They have to get the numbers down, so try as you may, you’re going to fail, and eventually change programs.

False accusations of cheating and plagiarism: Doing well in a course? Perhaps too well? If it sounds too good, or you’re always getting A's what better way to throw someone off their game by telling them it's not their work. Yes, I know of at least 10 cases of students who were accused of cheating and plagiarism. They all had to endure a year long judicial style process before all the charges against them were eventually dropped. Needless to say, the stress ended up brining their marks down to "acceptable" levels.

Everyone is your enemy: In my first year BIO class (which had 1200 students), , I witnessed a student grab well over 200 class handouts, walk over the garbage, and throw them out. I have seen students tearing pages out of library books so no one else can get that precious information. Think people are your friends....think again.


I could have gone to York, got a 4.0 GPA standing on my head, had a social life, and still ended up with my MD/MBA.


Do yourself a favor.....avoid UofT like the plague.

GO TO YORK AND GET AN A!!!

Boss how long ago were you at UofT? Cause I heard a few of those horror stories (the super keeners rippin out pages) during frosh week but NONE OF THAT materialized. Everyone I knew cooperated and helped and had a pretty good rapport going. Also, I never felt or saw those accusations of cheating when I or anyone else was doing well in a class.

Nervous breakdowns and broken dreams? The funny (well not funny but you know) thing is that I know more people at York that go through that than at UofT so I really don't think it's isolated to UofT. Everyone comes into university with dreams and ambition and the reality of the world we live in is that not everybody gets those, and I really don`t think it`s a UT-only phenomenon.

That said, your first 2 points are entirely valid.. but what's the alternative? Turn into a private American institution with rampant glade inflation? Also when you talk about weeding you make it sound like everyone fails, but you obviously did very well if ur in the MDMBA at McGill.. so in short that`s what I`m trying to say, not everyone does amazing but a good number of people do and the trick is trying to figure out how to get in that group.

[commie]

well, it does take good academic record to score a good job in the future, especially when u need decent marks for graduate schools

beside, a lot of students here at ut commerce are visa students, many "chinese speaking" (the ones commie talked about) are aimming to return to their country of origin once they graduate, they may benefit just as much from their peers as one would at queens
so stayin with their "homies" does not necessarily make them lesser students than the "precious" queens students

its just so wrong to stereotype a graduate immediately based on his/her school,
commie, what have they been teachin u at queens?

It does not really take 'good' academic record to score a good job....really...
this is for business/commerce students....Companies don't look at your transcripts like what students think....Don't get stressed out over marks.....Learn to have interpersonal skills, have communication skills, able to faciliatate....thats what companies are looking for....
Believe me, I have been in the workforce for a while now. I have studied at 2 universities at the undergad and masters level....your marks is not a guarantee to success.

We are here in Canada right? why not take the opportunitiy and learn the cultural and be part of this great country?
During my final year, I went to an exhange program in Finland. I spent 4 months there. There was a group of 30-40 exchange students from the various Canadian&US universities.....I know that at the end of the 4 months I will head back to Canada. But did I always stayed with my 'homie' group???
no!...I tried to make friends with the local students...Learn more about their cultural, their language, their food.......

That my friend is being open-minded...and taking advantage of an 'international' experience. Not sticking with your own group...

[q_hada]

The C curve is actually true... or at least to my understanding it's a C+ curve. I heard from one of my profs that if a prof gives a classes average of B too often, she/he's required to write a statement to the department stating the reason why the class "did so well"

I think this is only true for the large, lower year courses. In upper year courses that have say <30 people, I don't think this is a problem. On a side note, I was also told that (having to write a letter) by a prof in a big first year class, but he also said that he hopes he can do that every year. Also, my experience with the curve has been largely positive; it may have to do with the courses I've been taking, but anytime there's been a mark adjustment, it was to raise the marks :cheesygri

edit: I should say that I've generally done well in my courses, so I probably have a different perspective - e.g. studying hard has always paid off (mark wise) for me. Also, while you may be ablet o go to a differnet university and easily get better marks, I wonder if the learning experience is as good. For example, one of my friends is going into his second year at Ivey (ie 4th year of undergrad); he had a 4.0GPA at UWO through his first two years, and he (says he) didn't have to wrok very hard at all. Besides the fact that it meant that starting Ivey was a big adjustment, he also said his courses sucked and that UWO is a really bad place for undergrad because you don't learn anything (though you get to have a very good social life). Most of his 'profs' were not Ph.D's and were just generally bad, and the attitudes of his fellow students did not contribute to a good learning environment. But again, this is balanced by having lots of fun/free time.

[commie]

well, i said that in response to commie's generalized bias against uoft students
chinese people should at least heard about this b4, its the story about the frog trapped under a well, all he sees is the sky, so he thinks the rest of the world is just that small circular opening
its similar to commie's comments in a way that commie thinks his school has the highest in standard becuz he doesnt know what it really is like in other schools

What little do you know.......I have attended and graduated from 2 universities(Queen's undergrad, and Schulich for Masters), plus exchange program in Europe....Also I TEACH part-time at a Toronto College.
Plus, i have for years been part of my firm's(one of the largest management consulting firm) on-campus recruiting program at universities and colleges. I have visited and chatted with students from various ontario universities, including Mac, UofT, Schulich, Rye, Queen's, Ottawa; basically i am part of the Eastern region campus visit team.
So I think I am a little more than qualified to speak about the recruiting perspectives and the types of students at the various universities.
Of course this is only for Commerce/Business & Engineering students, as that is what my involvement has been.

Here is a story that is reflective of the type of students at UofT commerce. Not sure if UofT's career Center is training/teaching their students this or not, but this is what I found. There has been a few times when I am doing the 1st round interviews on campus, that the students bring into the room a notepad. I am like, okay maybe they want to take notes during the interview. Not a bad sign.......But instead the notepads were filled with point form notes of what the student wanted to say in the interview, including questions to ask me. If this was just a 1 time thing, I would chalk it up as just that particular student......But this has happened more than a few times...

Students, here is a BIG HINT....if you are going to an interview,....do not bring notes of what you want to say.....You should know it in your head what is on your resume!!!

I have been a mentor to Schulich MBA students for the past 3 years. And for the most part, they are mostly minorities(Indians,HK,Mainlanders.)...I have helped a few of them get their resume, newtorking, and interviewing skills in order. And they have came back with good news of finding a job in Canada. That is the type of students I enjoy seeing. Willingness to learn and participate in their new home.

[commie]

[QUOTE=Barton03]OK, you misinterpreted my points:

- UofT recruiters know what kind of students attend UofT and automatically judge that our commerce program is full of minorities..which unfortunately is stereotyped into thinking that we all can't communicate. If you are in commerce, I'm sure you have first hand experience how commerce students react to recruiting sessions.


- If you are not applying for a CA firm, you will probably go through the Career Centre. Firms don't just apply to UofT, they also apply to *many* diff. universities -- so they will have a pool of applicants from various universities. And students of UofT will be compared against to other universities.


Does that help clear things up?

QUOTE]

I am trying to tell you that when firms come to an university's career center. They will look at the applicants from JUST your university for the 'weeding' out and selecting the 1st round of interviews.
I have been involved with my firm's on-campus recruiting.
So you have just as much chance to get on the 1st interview list as anyone at any other university. Because the firms are not lumping UofT students, with Ivey students, with Schulich, Queen's, etc....
They are comparing you with all your fellow UofT peers......So your B- average is good compared to other B/B- students....

Then its all about the 'soft' skills during your interviews that will get you your job...

[RaynorWolfcastle]

You dont understand the situation @ UofT.

A C is considered 'average' grade. 65 is an "OK" mark at UofT. Most people in a class will end up with a mark between 62-75 (ie, C to B range). Of course, not half the class will fail, but most (perhaps about 60%) of the class will get a mark from 67-73.

This is not a case of sour grapes, if you know anyone that goes to UofT -- why not ask them? You can get a real life answer and not rely on ours. And I agree with you, most profs aim for avgs of about B, but not at UofT. A 'B' is for a student who is slightly above average.

I do know someone at UofT, one of my friends, that did biology. He graduated with a 3.7ish GPA. Now I've taken classes with him, and the guy is no slouch but he's no genius either. In CEGEP (Quebec system) he was average to slightly above average in almost all the classes we took. This isn't to say that he's not a smart guy, he is, but by the standards your setting he would have to be a genius of epic proportions to score a 3.7.

Like I said in my other post, at McGill you need at least a C if you want to take a follow up class. If the class is an end course, you can pass with a D. At UofT what is a passing grade?

[felixdd]

No offense...but I think those who criticize UT need to re-evaluate what it is that they want from their post-secondary education.

Some have criticized UT for a lack of student atmosphere -- and part of it is true, but that's just becaues UT doesn't have a centralized campus area like other Universities, especially in American ones. I've made an effort to involve myself with student affairs through various student unions, volunteering opportunities, and I can tell you that there is a lot of pride amongst us. School spirit is a product of the student, not the school -- if you have spirit, then you'll see it in others too. Don't blame the school for a lifestyle choice that you made.

Some have criticized that you can get higher marks at other schools than at UT. Of course it does -- even their admissions cut off are higher than, say, Lakehead or Laurentian! They are geared towards the higher end of the spectrum, so of course they have to maintain a higher standard of education as well.

If you feel bitter that you could've gotten higher marks elsewhere, then by all means go elsewhere. It's blatantly obvious that your primary concern in university isn't education, nor personal growth, but something as menial as marks. Maybe that's also why you don't see school spirit?

As others have said, what you get out of post-secondary education depends on what you put in. If you passively sit by, waiting for teachers to spoon-feed you with knowledge, or the school to spoon-feed you with spirit and marks, then UT is not for you. Those that go with the intention to grow and mature as a person, to get a good education, and a will to challenge oneself, will find such a challenge at UT.

As a medical school hopeful, I've talked to others who've moved onto medical school and they all say that UT graduates outclass everyone else by far. The work ethics that they develop, coupled with a superior background going into the fray, put them at one step ahead of the rest of the pack. If your intention is to work in any academia-related field, then UT will give you that edge.

If you intend to come out to the workforce, then admittedly UT may not be for you -- because it has no co-op (not at the St. George campus anyways; there are at UTSC). Does this make UT an inferior school for education? No. All it means is that it omits an important requirement of going out into the workforce -- experience. If you can make up that experience with your own initiative, then UT as a school is no different than, say, Waterloo.

[chak]

I didn't attend UT and any other big universities...I came from a small high school University~and hopefully I am giving neutral comment~

I absolutely love my school because students are friends of professors...professors recognize us and our names on the hallway...students get references more easily coz profs do know you and they know how you did

grades are not KEY in an interview...I saw some research on some paper before, when it comes to interview, GPA is ranked 11th....more important to employers are - communication skill, interpersonal skill and even passion (they wanna know how committed you are to the job)...and most of these are not things that you can learn from the lectures you attend~mostly outside classrooms!!!!


found the article, for those who wanna have a look - http://www.businessedge.ca/article.cfm/newsID/10179.cfm

[HarveyW]

I think personally if you live near a UofT Campus its great to go there and be challenged. It does help you focus and discipline your studying habits in that they test you on anything especially the details and of course with the grading sheme they make you earn that A.

If however you live far from a UofT campus then go elsewhere, your GPA is important in getting employed and getting future degrees such as a C.A.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions about the UofT Scarborough.


Later

[felixdd]

I think you bring up an interesting point: do you think that a student learns more from a textbook or from their peers? Does it take a village to bring up a child or a single person? It's all about your surroundings, if everyone around you are anti-social (or in this case, non-english speaking) then you are at a disadvantage compared to others.
University isn't a nursery, but it is a place where you grow. If you yourself are not antisocial and seek out extracurriculars, or (gasp!) even organize them yourself, then UT offers just as much. It's all about whether you're big enough the person to start taking control.

In university, it's all about the journey; the goal is important (getting that paper) but the journey is what you will remember many years down the road.

Indeed it is. You can go to York and get your A+'s, but you wouldn't have challenged yourself, explored your limits, and learned about you are as a person. The thousands of dollars that I'm paying are for an education, not for a mark. And obviously, I'm not so naive as to judge quality of education by a mark.

[commie]

University isn't a nursery, but it is a place where you grow. If you yourself are not antisocial and seek out extracurriculars, or (gasp!) even organize them yourself, then UT offers just as much. It's all about whether you're big enough the person to start taking control.



Indeed it is. You can go to York and get your A+'s, but you wouldn't have challenged yourself, explored your limits, and learned about you are as a person. The thousands of dollars that I'm paying are for an education, not for a mark. And obviously, I'm not so naive as to judge quality of education by a mark.

Why would you say that someone going to York and getting an A+ is not challenging themselfs? Its not just UofT that challenges the students.
I am sure there are other universities that will 'challenge', explore your limits, learn about yourself, besides UofT.
Even Lakehead, Trent, and other smaller uni's pose the challenge....

Problem I see with UofT is that they are so self-centered....Its almost like just because they are the biggest uni in Canada, they are the best or the most challenging or hardest.
If they see other students doing well at other uni's they immediately defend themselves by saying its much harder at UOFT...

Every university has its share of hard and easy programs...good and bad students...

[KennethToronto]

I've been reading this thread and I find some good points, but overwhelmingly, most of them are pretty silly. I think we would all agree that during frosh week (and probably before), universities try their hardest to "sell" themselves to you.

It's a pretty expensive product. Takes four years, a lot of effort, and at least $20,000 to buy. Of course, anyone who's buying something with such a large cost better feel good about it (as well as feel it's superior to other offerings). The university tries their best to make sure you feel this way. My frosh week at Queen's was a slick indoctrination process that included

- sleep deprivation
- mindless repetition of school cheers
- continual emphasis that Queen's is the best
- University rivalry. A lot of anti-UWO cheers.

After a week, most of us thought the only real university in Canada was Queen's and everything else could be lumped together with Lakehead. I suspect students at other universities go through a similar process (or maybe only Queen's students get brainwashed). The problem is, I think many of you haven't grown out of that way of thinking.

I personally suspect that most post-secondary institutions teach the same thing. Maybe the order in which subjects/material are covered vary, but in the end, a biochemist graduating from Queen's, is comparable to a biochemist graduating from UofT or UW. Marks probably, are also the same - to a degree. I can only base this judgement on the fact graduate schools like medical school use a 'grid' to transform your university marks to a GPA for submission. The differences are minimal - an 80 at Queen's is equal to an 80 at UWO, to an 80 at UT etc. Similarly, graduate studies for an MSc/PhD - speaking to my supervisor (who is a bit quirky mind you) and other professors I've worked for/dealt with extensively, marks are important but they would preferentially take a student in a heartbeat if they have a good track record of experience + have been published/have great publishing potential over a super high mark achiever that is unproven in the lab.

It's also really funny how some people 'feel' their school is tougher/challenging than others. I think most believe what they want to believe. Moreover, it's pretty hard to make those judgements unless you have spent significant time at more than one school (even then, that doesn't necessarily mean you've experienced both school, unless you've studied the same program at both schools).

Maybe I'm wrong when I say "it's just an undergrad degree". But that's how I see it..."just" an undergrad degree. Go anywhere you want, it's all the same (as in limited value haha) :)

[HowEver]

I could have gone to York, got a 4.0 GPA standing on my head, had a social life, and still ended up with my MD/MBA.


Do yourself a favor.....avoid UofT like the plague.

GO TO YORK AND GET AN A!!!


No, you probably would have had much the same marks at York, if that. What you may have heard is not necessarily the case. There may have been a time when it was easier it _get in_ to York, but it wasn't the case that you would necessarily get As--unless you were an A student.

[felixdd]

Why would you say that someone going to York and getting an A+ is not challenging themselfs? Its not just UofT that challenges the students.
I am sure there are other universities that will 'challenge', explore your limits, learn about yourself, besides UofT.
Even Lakehead, Trent, and other smaller uni's pose the challenge....

Problem I see with UofT is that they are so self-centered....Its almost like just because they are the biggest uni in Canada, they are the best or the most challenging or hardest.
If they see other students doing well at other uni's they immediately defend themselves by saying its much harder at UOFT...

Every university has its share of hard and easy programs...good and bad students...

I've done some comparison between course materials and evaluations, and it is my opinion that UT has harder tests and more stringent academic standards.

Does that mean it's better? No. I staunchly believe that one should apply to an educational institute based on how that institute's approach will complement your intellectual abilities, and how it will allow one to grow and mature. If that evaluation takes you to York, or Lakehead, or wherever, then go right ahead. In fact, I have utmost respect towards Lakehead as an institute -- their smaller class sizes will probably work very well with some who thrive under those conditions. One of my friends chose to go into McMaster Geology for that exact reason -- because it was a lot more personal.

I didn't intend my rant to come off as saying that UT is more challenging than other schools -- the intent was to defend criticism towards UT by saying it is a challenging school. My comment about York was intended to be taken in context with the other discussions going on in this thread -- i.e. "Go to York and get an A+"

So it would seem appropriate for me to further elaborate my position at this point -- what does irk me, however, is how many here seem to base their opinion on the quality of the school by marks. Aside from the fact that they mean nothing in most of the workforce, it also reflects nothing about how much you've learned or have grown. I just feel that it's silly and superficial to base one's enrollment decision -- which is very much a life-changing one -- on a superficial number that may as well be randomly determined.

[rockthecasbah]

I find it funny that people are saying "oh if you go to York, you can get A's", as to assume that students who DO get A's at York are not putting any effort into their work, challenging themselves, pulling all-nighters studying, etc. Pretty much an assumption that a dumb@ss could get good marks.

It'd be nice for those people who think that to actually take a class at York (and NOT a "bird class") and see if that proves to be true.

Anyhow, I'm sure there are always going to be the idiots who can't spell or write proper, grammatically correct sentences at York and yet still seem to be getting by, with A's even. But that isn't to say that those who go to U of T are by default smarter and more intelligent because, trust me, I've seen MANY, many U of T students on the internet (on RFD even) who have horrid basic English skills.

BTW, I did get into U of T St George campus but chose York for its interdisciplinary program and its distance from my home. So don't think this is a "OMGZZZ DISGRUNTLED REJECTED U of T STUDENT" message.

[cuiyinghost]

really?
http://www.macleans.ca/universities/

Unless you mean their ranking of MEDICAL DOCTORAL schools... because I don't see U of T listed on the primarily undergraduate or comprehensive rankings.

p.s. Macleans isn't really THE source for universities info. If memory serves me correct, it was this (or the Globe and Mail) article that ranked York's medical school -- where there isn't actually a medical school.

i think you misread the ranking.Macleans wanna make everybody happy. So they divide all the universities into 3 different group sby their main advantages.
So you dont see any dupilcates in any of the 3 groups ;)

[dmdsoftware2]

I've just finished my degree from UofT, and I loved it.

I was also a TA, so I know the politics. Within any large class (> 40-50 students in size), there should not be more then 20% of students who earn 80% or higher. Also, there should not be more then 10-15% of students who fail. Finally, the class average should be between 60-75%. All of these conditions are enforced at the department level, so it can vary department to department.

Finally, there are always exceptions. In these cases, the professor must substantiate the reason for the class marks to get approved.

[dmdsoftware2]

Here's one for you guys. I am a graduate of UofT. I finished with an Hon. BSc with high distinction (MAJ Human Biology & MAJ Human Physiology). I am currently doing a joint MD/MBA at McGill University, and can say without a doubt that attending UofT was the single worst experience of my life. I got the marks, but the stress, politics, and sacrifice just wasn't worth it in the end.

I saw many of my diligent and hard working friends loose sight of their hopes and dreams because of the negative and ultimately self-destructive learning environment that UofT fosters and embraces. Nervous breakdowns, anxiety disorders, and panic attacks seem to be a little too prevalent at this school. I’ve observed all three MULTIPLE times.

To keep things succinct I'll just quickly list the reasons as to why this place is really the Mecca of debauched and corrupt education:.

The "C" Curve: Study hard, but all you'll get is a 60%-65%.. The odds are just not in your favor. The administration calls for a C class average….so that is what the professors are going to give them.

"Weeding": There are just too many students in almost all first year courses. They have to get the numbers down, so try as you may, you’re going to fail, and eventually change programs.

False accusations of cheating and plagiarism: Doing well in a course? Perhaps too well? If it sounds too good, or you’re always getting A's what better way to throw someone off their game by telling them it's not their work. Yes, I know of at least 10 cases of students who were accused of cheating and plagiarism. They all had to endure a year long judicial style process before all the charges against them were eventually dropped. Needless to say, the stress ended up brining their marks down to "acceptable" levels.

Everyone is your enemy: In my first year BIO class (which had 1200 students), , I witnessed a student grab well over 200 class handouts, walk over the garbage, and throw them out. I have seen students tearing pages out of library books so no one else can get that precious information. Think people are your friends....think again.


I could have gone to York, got a 4.0 GPA standing on my head, had a social life, and still ended up with my MD/MBA.


Do yourself a favor.....avoid UofT like the plague.

GO TO YORK AND GET AN A!!!


If you can work a fork, you can go to york.

[dmdsoftware2]

Anyhow, I'm sure there are always going to be the idiots who can't spell or write proper, grammatically correct sentences at York and yet still seem to be getting by, with A's even. But that isn't to say that those who go to U of T are by default smarter and more intelligent because, trust me, I've seen MANY, many U of T students on the internet (on RFD even) who have horrid basic English skills.



Hate to break it to you, but there are more degrees then just an Arts degrees. You don't need excellent English skills to take a degree in the Sciences.

[rockthecasbah]

i think you misread the ranking.Macleans wanna make everybody happy. So they divide all the universities into 3 different group sby their main advantages.
So you dont see any dupilcates in any of the 3 groups ;)

Oh I see, I see :)

Also, where can one find the older rankings for Macleans anyways?

[rockthecasbah]

Hate to break it to you, but there are more degrees then just an Arts degrees. You don't need excellent English skills to take a degree in the Sciences.

I never said excellent English skills, notice I said "I've seen MANY, many U of T students on the internet (on RFD even) who have horrid basic English skills.".

Basic meaning the difference between you're/your, than/then (i.e. there are more degrees than just an Arts degree), their/there/they're, it's/its, etc. These are grammar skills we were taught in elementary.

I'm not talking about "excellent English skills" as in perfect sentence structure, perfect spelling and whatnot. Just SIMPLE grammar.

[Barton03]

I've just finished my degree from UofT, and I loved it.

I was also a TA, so I know the politics. Within any large class (> 40-50 students in size), there should not be more then 20% of students who earn 80% or higher. Also, there should not be more then 10-15% of students who fail. Finally, the class average should be between 60-75%. All of these conditions are enforced at the department level, so it can vary department to department.

Finally, there are always exceptions. In these cases, the professor must substantiate the reason for the class marks to get approved.

Woohoo! Inside news! How much pay per hour? ;) Btw, what do you do with the twenties I staple with my test? j/k!

[dmdsoftware2]

These are grammar skills we were taught in elementary.


Not for the many many many students who came over to Canada just for University. Many of these students just started learning English.

My English skills have actually decreased since attending High School due to the fact that I was surrounded by too many foreign students speaking in broken english in my University Science classes.

[Shorthair]

I acepted U of T. And Ive Had many People tell me they loved it. They are all family. And Had a blast at U of T.

if you go to U of T post Your College And Your Major.

St George.
New College
Computer Science
First Year.

[astrix]

St George
New College (res)
Elect Engineering

YR1

[CSR]

There's already another thread to list your school.

[felixdd]

I never said excellent English skills, notice I said "I've seen MANY, many U of T students on the internet (on RFD even) who have horrid basic English skills.".

Basic meaning the difference between you're/your, than/then (i.e. there are more degrees than just an Arts degree), their/there/they're, it's/its, etc. These are grammar skills we were taught in elementary.

I'm not talking about "excellent English skills" as in perfect sentence structure, perfect spelling and whatnot. Just SIMPLE grammar.
Yeah I'm surprised too...it's as if people don't have respect for the language. Oh well...we're not the grammar police :razz:.

I've just finished my degree from UofT, and I loved it.

I was also a TA, so I know the politics. Within any large class (> 40-50 students in size), there should not be more then 20% of students who earn 80% or higher. Also, there should not be more then 10-15% of students who fail. Finally, the class average should be between 60-75%. All of these conditions are enforced at the department level, so it can vary department to department.

Finally, there are always exceptions. In these cases, the professor must substantiate the reason for the class marks to get approved.
That's basically how it works. For courses less than ~30 (don't remember the exact number) the professor isn't subjected to the scrutiny that larger class sizes are towards having a marks distribution that fall into the cookie cutter mold. This is partly the reason why VIC120 was canned -- too many high marks.

I never liked the bell curve system -- it's a dodgy way to do things IMHO. I'm getting good enough marks to be able to "ride the curve" so to speak, but nonetheless I find it somewhat hypocritical that science profs, of all the people, apply it so liberally and carelessly. It's them who condemn the fudging of data as the ultimate of evil. Yet instead of reflecting that maybe their teaching methods are inept, or that their evaluation method is ineffective, they fudge the "data" (aka marks) year after year so that they agree with the canonical distribution. It's dodgy, and the students aren't getting their money's worth on a good education.

[mrken]

How does UofT compare to UBC and SFU? How about the Ivy Leagues and MIT? (Not that I would be able to get in. :D)

[skanwar]

UofT is great, I dunno what some of you guys are talking about. I'm heading to my 2nd year in the co-op BBA program, and I'm not having problems with prof. relations, marks, or extracurricular activities. And yea, our grad programs rock too!

[CSR]

UofT is great, I dunno what some of you guys are talking about. I'm heading to my 2nd year in the co-op BBA program, and I'm not having problems with prof. relations, marks, or extracurricular activities. And yea, our grad programs rock too!


Hey, another member thats in co op bba, what's your name, do you go to UTSC?

[b166er1337]

You dont understand the situation @ UofT.

A C is considered 'average' grade. 65 is an "OK" mark at UofT. Most people in a class will end up with a mark between 62-75 (ie, C to B range). Of course, not half the class will fail, but most (perhaps about 60%) of the class will get a mark from 67-73.

This is not a case of sour grapes, if you know anyone that goes to UofT -- why not ask them? You can get a real life answer and not rely on ours. And I agree with you, most profs aim for avgs of about B, but not at UofT. A 'B' is for a student who is slightly above average.

I have completed 16 credits @ UT.
Of the 28 courses (some half year, some full year)
The class average has the following distribution:
B: 2
B-: 2
C+: 10
C: 7
C-: 3
D+: 4 OUCH >:(

Keep in mind that these class averages are the final marks and they don't include those students who already drop the courses.

Other UT or other university students wanna post their class average here?

[cuiyinghost]

MAT334H1 Complex Variables C+
STA302H1 Regression Analysis B
STA322H1 Sample Survey Design C+
ACT348H1 Adv Life Contingen C+
ACT451H1 Risk Theory B-
STA347H1 Probability I B+
STA442H1 Methods Applied Stat B+
ACT349H1 Top Actuarial Math B
MAT337H1 Intro Real Analysis C+
STA352Y1 Intro to Math'l Stats B-
STA410H1 Statistical Comput B+
STA457H1 Time Series Analysis A-

Thats the final year of my transcript, courses avgs are not so bad. Even you could see an A- average of a 400-level course.

[Ma_Jie]

U of T is great -- all you haters just get off it.

In my opinion, U of T is superior to UBC, but both are undoubtedly excellent.

- Ma Jie
University of Toronto, Woodsworth College
Philosophy and East Asian Stuidies

[rupture]

Yeah everyone's hating on UofT too much. It's really not that bad and undoubtedly is the best research institution in Canada.

It may not be the best Undergrad school but as long as you've got a close group of friends to keep you going, you'll do fine in this wonderful establishment!

On the plus side, I am saving money by living at home and not having to pay for food, rent, utilities etc. So when I graduate I won't be in enormous amounts of debt like some of my other friends who go to different universities.

UofT is a-okay is my books!

-

New College at the University of Toronto
3rd year Political Science and History Double Major student

[Barton03]

MAT334H1 Complex Variables C+
STA302H1 Regression Analysis B
STA322H1 Sample Survey Design C+
ACT348H1 Adv Life Contingen C+
ACT451H1 Risk Theory B-
STA347H1 Probability I B+
STA442H1 Methods Applied Stat B+
ACT349H1 Top Actuarial Math B
MAT337H1 Intro Real Analysis C+
STA352Y1 Intro to Math'l Stats B-
STA410H1 Statistical Comput B+
STA457H1 Time Series Analysis A-

Thats the final year of my transcript, courses avgs are not so bad. Even you could see an A- average of a 400-level course.

That means nothing. final year? So what, your class size was about 50 people? We're talking about overall course averages here...not just a specific year.

[RaynorWolfcastle]

I have completed 16 credits @ UT.
Of the 28 courses (some half year, some full year)
The class average has the following distribution:
B: 2
B-: 2
C+: 10
C: 7
C-: 3
D+: 4 OUCH >:(

Keep in mind that these class averages are the final marks and they don't include those students who already drop the courses.

Other UT or other university students wanna post their class average here?

McGill doesn't use C- or D+, anything below C goes straight to D and means that you cannot take any follow up classes before retaking it. So basically with a C+ or C class average, nearly half the class has to repeat it at McGill

I've taken a shitload of classes at McGill as an EE major, ~95 credits maybe and the distribution is as follows:
A-: 1 (bird class)
B+: 10
B: 9
B-: 4
C+: 4
C: 2


Most of the B+ were either labs or senior classes (in both cases, class sizes are smaller). Bs and B- were mostly mid-level classes. C+ and Cs are usually considered filter classes, since, as I explained above anything below a C grade is a conditional pass at McGill and you can't take any follow-ups to that class.

[bentlegen]

Meh, I'm a student at U of T, graduating this year, and I've really enjoyed myself here. To say there's no on-campus social life is pretty damn ignorant - it sounds like you're just not much of a social guy/gal yourself. If you live off campus, then yeah, you're not going to enjoy it as much - but that's going to be the same for ANY university, trust me. I've had the "opportunity" of attending two universities thus far for undergrad, and I really don't feel there's much of a difference as far as student experience goes.

I don't see the point of this thread as everyone has surely made their choices about which university to attend anyways - this year at least.

[friend_4ever]

wth? someone said ut doesnt have good campus social life?
thats just bs or bc
its better than all the other schools ive been to (western, waterloo, queens, mcmaster, etc)
not only we have tons of frat parties like other schools do, we are minutes away from clubs, bars, arcade, concerts, live shows, etc, tons of crap,
theres so much more u can do with ur fellowship students here at ut

i would choose u of t over anyone of ur precious schools just for these stuff alone (beside the fact that i didnt know schools like western, ryerson and guelph existed when i applied)

[harry420]

if you work hard, you will get good Marks. its as simple as that. Working hard means studying or reviewing class notes everyday, not just before the test or exam. Some ppl try to cram all the course material in 3-4 days, this is not good idea at university level. You might get away with it but you won't get good grades. Just my 2 cents. :)

[Brian2k1]

Regarding academics each university will have particular strengths and that is how you should make your decision. York is renouned for its cutting edge Political Science department where else besides Berkely can you hear Chomsky lecutre? York is also strong in Business and Law. Schulich Business School is recongnized as the premier Business school in Canada also the most difficult program to enter with the strictest qualifications which often requires to enter the MBA program. UofT is well known for its Math and Sciences program, including Medicine and Law. Waterloo is also highly respected for their Math and Science program more so then UofT. MAC is known for its Kinesiology program and Ryerson for its Public Relations and Photography.
Basically, pick a school with a strong program as each school specializes to a certain degree as particular programs receive better funding then others.

AS FOR YORK

I'm in 4th year Polisci at York and took my first year at UofT before realizing their program was less then the best. My H.S. friends all go to UofT and they slack off just as much as I and we all get roughly the same marks, so I don't buy the arguement that York is easier. But I will admit, there are more knuckle-heads @ York then UofT because the girls there are so hot :p but believe me by 3rd year they are all left behind. So pick your school appropriate to your field of study.

[skanwar]

Hey, another member thats in co op bba, what's your name, do you go to UTSC?

Yea, and its better than I expected haha! Replied your PM :D.

[Nai]

if you work hard, you will get good Marks. its as simple as that. Working hard means studying or reviewing class notes everyday, not just before the test or exam. Some ppl try to cram all the course material in 3-4 days, this is not good idea at university level. You might get away with it but you won't get good grades. Just my 2 cents. :)

:cheesygri :duh: :cheesygri

Well, you're not completely correct. Work and grades does have a positive correlation, but if the subject is just not right for you = way over your head, it does not matter how much you study or review unless you start from the basics and work your way up. Too many people jump into 'more interesting' courses thinking that they can just pick things up on the fly, but when paired with work from all other courses, there is just not enough time to make such jumps unless you have a natural gift for the subject.

Basically, if you want good grades, your first hit should be in a subject/field that you both like and are naturally good at doing. Secondly, you need to learn how to optimize your time so that you are studying 'just' enough to meet your reasonable grade standards while maintaining a real life (this may have been my hardest endeavour in uni).

Studying alone has its limits, just ask many of the NSCIs @ UofT.

[7jai]

If u noticed a few posts above mine, that the ppl who "claim" that UofT isn't "all that bad" and told the rest of us "haters" to "lay off"....they are the ones who are taking the programs that less UofT ppl take and are less competitive.

eg: East asian studies? Humanities?

The reason why you guys are having a better time, is because noone is biting each others HEADS to be the BEST of the BEST.

The rest of us are talking about the competitive programs such as engineering, life sci, and commerce.

[mritche]

If u noticed a few posts above mine, that the ppl who "claim" that UofT isn't "all that bad" and told the rest of us "haters" to "lay off"....they are the ones who are taking the programs that less UofT ppl take and are less competitive.

eg: East asian studies? Humanities?

The reason why you guys are having a better time, is because noone is biting each others HEADS to be the BEST of the BEST.

The rest of us are talking about the competitive programs such as engineering, life sci, and commerce.
You're wrong. I'm in engineering, a program you say is competitive, and I agree with the people you say are in east Asian studies and humanities programs.

I'm having a great time and I don't see anyone biting each others' heads off to be the best of the best.

[mritche]

I saw many of my diligent and hard working friends loose sight of their hopes and dreams because of the negative and ultimately self-destructive learning environment that UofT fosters and embraces. Nervous breakdowns, anxiety disorders, and panic attacks seem to be a little too prevalent at this school. I’ve observed all three MULTIPLE times.
Clearly your diligent and hard-working friends lost sight of their hopes and dreams through no fault of their own, right? I mean, it's not like university is what you make of it or anything. :rolleyes:

It might be stressful at U of T, but it's kind of a stretch to say the school as a whole embraces a self-destructive learning environment. In my experience, it has been the student who usually determines whether or not to engage in self-destructive behaviour.

Study hard, but all yo'ull get is a 60%-65%.. The odds are just not in your favor. The administration calls for a C class average....so that is what the professors are going to give them.
Wait a second, you mean the class average is supposed to be around the letter grade typically used to indicate "average?" Stop the presses! I'm sorry, but not everyone can be above average. Besides, of all the classes I've taken the lowest average has been in the C (mid 60s) range. All others have been C+ or higher.

There are just too many students in almost all first year courses. They have to get the numbers down, so try as you may, you're going to fail, and eventually change programs.
This is debauched and corrupt now? Like it or not, a lot of students may not have enrolled in the right post-secondary education program. Do you honestly believe students who cannot or will not put worth the work to even pass most of their first-year courses (note that I did not say all; everyone can have screwups now and again and that does not mean they're failures and have to change programs) have really made the right choice regarding their post-secondary education?

By not coddling students at the beginning and actually making them work for the right to advance you're quickly going to find out who made a mistake enrolling in their program. Isn't it better that they find out they're not well suited to their program in first year when they can cut their losses rather than third year when they could very well just stick it out for one more year? I don't know about you, but I like my classmates to want to be there.

To be honest, there probably are too many students enrolling in university. It's unfortunate that these days you have to have an undergraduate degree to get even the most basic of jobs. It doesn't help that many high schools inflate marks to an obscene degree. Everyone coming out of high school with their 80s and 90s think they're smart enough to get the same marks in university, but it doesn't work that way.

In my first year BIO class (which had 1200 students), , I witnessed a student grab well over 200 class handouts, walk over the garbage, and throw them out. I have seen students tearing pages out of library books so no one else can get that precious information. Think people are your friends....think again.
I witnessed an American slashing another American's tires. By your logic all Americans are enemies. You're going to find jackasses everywhere and they're not confined to U of T.

[felixdd]

If u noticed a few posts above mine, that the ppl who "claim" that UofT isn't "all that bad" and told the rest of us "haters" to "lay off"....they are the ones who are taking the programs that less UofT ppl take and are less competitive.

eg: East asian studies? Humanities?

The reason why you guys are having a better time, is because noone is biting each others HEADS to be the BEST of the BEST.

The rest of us are talking about the competitive programs such as engineering, life sci, and commerce.

I'm in life science; so is friend_4ever it seems. I don't find UT to be "less" competitive than other universities.

Not that I think most of us can justifiably make that claim. Most of us has only enrolled to one university for our undergrad. If I were to do it again, I'd still have picked UT.

EDIT: What I mean is that I find that UT isn't "all that bad", but I am also in a "competitive" program as defined by 7jai. The stuff about "less" competitive is just to point out how it's hard to compare between schools on basis of competitiveness.

[furbaby]

How does UofT compare to UBC and SFU? How about the Ivy Leagues and MIT? (Not that I would be able to get in. :D)

I don't think Ivy leagues are a lot harder. My sister went to Columbia University and her Chemistry material isn't much harder than what I learned at UofT. Since I'm vacationing in Boston, I went to Harvard Square last week. I overheard two Harvard chemistry students discussing their chemistry problem sets. The questions that they had problems with were quite easy. :cheesygri I would disagree that Ivy Leagues are harder. It's just harder to get into.


I'm in life science; so is friend_4ever it seems. I don't find UT to be "less" competitive than other universities.

Not that I think most of us can justifiably make that claim. Most of us has only enrolled to one university for our undergrad. If I were to do it again, I'd still have picked UT.


I took a course in first year bio ryerson and a first year calc. at york. I can honestly say that it is a lot easier. In fact, I took bio at UofT and dropped it. The stuff they teach at uoft is more in depth than at other schools.

[Ubed]

I totally disagree on those people saying UofT is a terrible school for undergrad.

I did Elec Eng there, and lived in residence as well as lived downtown. I made most of my friends that I still hang out with today from res and from class. I think living in res and going to university is the key. I don't think I missed out much at all when comparing to a smaller city, like, Waterloo or Kingston. UofT is in Toronto, and man, so much to do!

Worldwide, UofT has an extremely strong name. Ask anyone in europe, the only cities they know are Toronto and Montreal (hence they know UofT and McGill). Vancouver is also sometimes thrown in there. Waterloo/Queens and any other Ontario university is not known at all. I did a four month internship out there, and Toronto had a really strong name.

Education wise, I would say its standard across the province. I mean, you learn the same stuff. Marks wise, they are tougher than the other schools. I agree with that one. But, people realize that. I went to Waterloo to do a graduate degree, and my marks were much much lower than most of those people from Waterloo. However, the OGS board (ontario graduate scholarship) noticed this, and I was granted a scholarship beating out many UofW grads who had 'higher' marks.

Engineering wise, if you want to goto a good school, UofT and UofWaterloo are great for undergrad. If you want to goto a fun city, I would choose UofT. One thing about UofWaterloo that I realized, everyone there is from Toronto, and they go home on the weekends! But, I would HIGHLY recommend living in residence for your first year, EVEN IF YOU LIVE IN THE SAME CITY as the school you are going to attend (don't cheap out .. you only live once!!! Take a loan .. pay it off when you're working if you have to). You do miss out on A LOT of student life if you live at home and goto school. Huge huge huge difference! Like I said, most of my UofT friends lived downtown and not at home, and we're all great friends still today!

There's my two cents...hope you like it....

Thanks for reading!

[Daboss]

Why is it so hard for people to understand?

Here's the simple breakdown:

Good Grades = Every road in life remains open to you = Getting to do what really want to in the long run!! = HAPPINESS

Go to York, get the good grades, and be a happy person. York IS easier than UofT, there is no doubt about it. Please don't let yourself be fooled. I have talked with professors who teach at both York and UofT, specifically those in the Economics dept, and they have all said that there is no comparison…York is the easier school.

EXAMPLE : My brother graduated with a 3.65 GPA in Life Sciences at UofT. 3.65 is a respectable GPA, but it was not good enough to get him into ANY American or Canadian dental schools (including UofT). So he went back to your for one year, in order to improve his GPA. He took: Organic Chemistry, Anatomy, Bio Chemistry, and two general arts courses. He finished the year off with a perfect 4.0 GPA. He reapplied to the same dental schools, and was accepted to over 5 including UofT. So this student who was at best a B+ student at UofT, is an A+ student at York…sounds easier to me.

I was once green like many of you, but take it from someone who has gone through it all already, don't go to UofT. Why would you want to make it harder for yourself. You will still get a good education at York, and it will be so much easier to do well.

And for those of you who are saying "UofT has a great rep, it's known internationally, and that makes it better", what in the hell does that mean? Who cares if people in France know your University's name....if you don't get good grades while your there NO PROFESSIONAL PROGRAM IS GOING TO CARE WHERE YOU WENT! Let’s see how for prestige and reputation will get you when your marks are horrible.

[nicemonitor]

This school has a few downsides but it is definitely among the elite universities in Canada. The science programs are picking up steam and often on par with what is offered up the street at UoW. Don't overlook this school with great community, spirit, and academics!

[Ayla500]

Has anyone heard of Acadia, of St.FX? Both really strong schools and well respected! The world doesn't revolve around Ontario! Dalhousie, MSV, good east coast schools. Macleans has consistently listed these schools among the top 10 schools in Canada for the past 5 or more years! Acadia has been no less than # 3.

[nkwu]

IU haven't bothered reading the thread(11 pages? maybe later). but I have hear d alot of horror stories aobut U of T alos, and the general concensus seems to be that UT is exceelnt for anything but your undergrad. The undergrad i simply too competitive and populatde.

That being said, it also eases things alot if(even if you livein commuting distance) you stay at residence.

Now, with the undergrad being so competitive and the GAP often being very very low for UT, the whole value of an undergrad is questioned. It's jsut a piece of paper and has pretty much become standard to get a job, is it worth it to try and go to a good institution(but definitely don't go to a bad one, and recruiting at various institutions set aside), or just get your undergrad at any old place and get your job?

[burnthemascotindustry]

If u noticed a few posts above mine, that the ppl who "claim" that UofT isn't "all that bad" and told the rest of us "haters" to "lay off"....they are the ones who are taking the programs that less UofT ppl take and are less competitive.

eg: East asian studies? Humanities?

The reason why you guys are having a better time, is because noone is biting each others HEADS to be the BEST of the BEST.

The rest of us are talking about the competitive programs such as engineering, life sci, and commerce.

Well then perhaps the thread title needs to be a bit more specific?

[wwtsang]

haha... took me a long time to read through all the posts in the thread

i'm a 3rd year elec eng student from U of T (hence i may be biased), but overall ppl seem to be arguing about if UT is harder or not, what i would ask is this, if UT has cutoff marks for a program set at 85 and other Universities have cutoff marks at 75 or 80, overall the students going to UT would have better marks from HS and maybe they're on the higher echelon vs those who had 80s, thus neglecting the fact that UT has lower averages, someone who got 70 at UT might be better than someone who got 70 at somewhere else if it's the same program

all universities have programs which they are good in, back to the main topic, i would say go to UofT if you're someone who might want to work abroad (not North America) since it's more likely that someone heard of UofT vs SFU or York, however it really depends on the program, i'm not sure if the acceptance marks and programs are still relatively the same when i got accepted to EE, but doing BBA (or iBBA) at York Schulich is better (and harder to get in) vs UT BBA, and Engineering at UT is better vs Eng. at York

all programs and schools have rivalries, us engineers (to be) @ SKULE like to make fun of other universities (the Profs do too) such as Ryerson, York and I guess UT and Waterloo usually think they have better programs in Elec and Comp (Comp @ UW had higher acceptance average vs UT for my year)

but it all doesn't matter if you can't find a job after you graduate, UW engineering has a good co-op program but UT has PEY, it's boiled down to what you want and if you have the marks, choose the program you like at the university which is best for that program

in conclusion we don't need to argue about whether UT is good or bad or is it harder, take engineering for example, no matter which uni you're from in Canada, most of us can agree we are overall not as good when we compare us to the States (MIT, cal-tech, etc) hahaha :D

[MADster123]

I am a graduated, not graduate, student from U of T and will do my Master in Windsor, Thanks to my poor undergrad GPA.
do that make the point. ;)

I am so happy to see that more and more U of T people are finally coming out to defend the school! Com' on! Let's show some U of T spirit! :-0

Would I go to U of T again if I have the choice? Yes! Most definitely! I went to U of T for my Bachelor of Commerce degree and went back to U of T again to do my Master degree simply because I just love the school! I'm just done with it and am working full-time now.

Like many have pointed out, if you're a commuter, you definitely wouldn't have much of a social life. I live in Scarborough, but I have decided to live at Victoria College's Annesley Hall for a year to have a socially-balanced first year... since then, I've been living on campus... I ended up living at Victoria College for 4 years and Chestnut for one year! (God! That must be the most beautiful, or luxurious, university residence in the entire country!!!) Because U of T is so internationally famous, we were just blessed with more exchange students. I was fortunate enough to be living next to a Japanese exchange student in my third year, and she became my best friend by the end of the year... She came back to visit me the next year after she left and I went to Japan to visit her last year... through the school, I also met a lot of people from other culture (like my first year roomie, who's an Indian; while I'm a Hongkie!)... we dined out all the time because there are so many good restaurants around Yorkville... ;)

I was a "Commie" too! But I had so much fun! I actually STARTED a school club under the commerce student clubs umbrella... my team and I ran like 12 events in a year! My executives usually came over to my place to sleep over the night before the event and we sometimes called the participants to ask them to attend the next day... or we went grocery shopping to buy drinks, plates, forks, nametags, certificates etc... And can you believe that -- the summer student (who's now going to 3rd year commerce) in my office told me that she's an Executive of ODA (*MY* club)!!! Wow... my club is still running now and I was the Founder!!!! :) (I almost wanted to cry!)

There're a lot of passionate, selfless and caring people at U of T too... a group of people and I ran the Daffodil Sales to fundraise for the Canadian Cancer Society... we did it for 5 consecutive years!

I must admit, there were bad moments, and my guess is, wherever you go and whatever you do, there will be rough times in your life.... that's what I told those early-admitted straight As high school kids when I was representing U of T Commerce in a social event 3 years ago... and I also told them... when U of T is this huge, it's more likely that you would walk down the street and run into a U of T alumni than an alumni from any other universities... just probability right? AND now, think about the chance of meeting a recruiter who's a U of T grad...

Now, my boyfriend's from the States... when he first met me, he doesn't even know any schools in Canada... when I met his friends, no one knows U of T/ U of W/ Queens/ UBC / ANY Canadian schools... (of course, everyone knows Harvard!... and sadly... most thought U of T = U of Texas!!!) :evil: So... hmm...

But to be honest with you all, when I look back, I always tell people, I think my university years at U of T have been the happiest years in my life so far... I love and will remember everything about the school... especially those *FREE* Vic Chorus Concerts and the "Old Ontario Strand"...

[cranky]

How can you a join a sports team or extra clubs if any time you spend doing something non-related to studying means someone else is getting more studying time? Remember, in UofT courses there is a max of 20% of B or higher. Less time you study, the more others study.

That is true. I barely have time to work with a 4.5 credit courseload. I'm going into 3rd year, have a B avg, and would not recommend anyone going there unless they commit 120% to studying. The commuting does kill you but meeting people's not as bad as it seems. I've met people in most of my classes, most of the profs are approachable and friendly. Personally, I think that it is not worth it if you have to work so hard just to get a CGPA of 3.0 for your undergrad. Haha, and i do regret going to UofT just as many others do.

Oh another thing that sucks is that you gotta work your tail off to get into the subject post that you want AFTER first year, with most type 2 subject posts starting at a minimum cgpa of 2.3? Not to mention that tough first year courses offered (SOC101, PSY100,ECO100, etc).

[karlofun]

Education-wise, it's definitely harder to get good grades compared to other schools, simply because UT has a 'reputation' to uphold. It doesn't matter how great your paper may be, because if there are others who've put that extra 1% into their own paper, you could wind up with a really crappy mark. The whole marking-in-comparison-to-your-peers deal really bites, but that's how it works here. Is it not the same at other schools?! The upside is that if you really do get an A, then you'll know that it's something to be proud of!

BTW, I've taken some of the courses that were on that comsci guy's transcript, and I gotta say that he's got to be a crazy genius with *absolutely* no social life. 100% in STA257 is unbelievable. That course is death. Same goes for CSC263. Usually, everyone gets a nice ass-raping in those courses.

If you feel bitter that you could've gotten higher marks elsewhere, then by all means go elsewhere. It's blatantly obvious that your primary concern in university isn't education, nor personal growth, but something as menial as marks. Maybe that's also why you don't see school spirit?

You may have gotten a great education and grew a lot while studying at UT, which may have been your primary goal... but ultimately aren't you getting that so-called quality education and experience so that you can stand out from the rest and get a decent job? What good is that education and growth if you can't even get your foot in the door because that 2.0 CGPA doesn't accurately reflect your skills, which could've been a 4.0 elsewere. Marks are not menial. They should reflect what you learned at the school, but in many cases at UT, that's not what happens. And because of that, you don't appeal as much to employers as others with higher GPAs from other schools do.

I'm not spending $7k/yr so that I can be unemployed and in debt, and yet say to myself, "that's okay, at least I got a great education and I grew a lot."

Many believe that if they graduate from UT, they'll have a bright future. They expect to be a cut above the rest, and why shouldn't they? That's what UT is selling; their slogan is "Great Minds for a Great Future." I guess it's just tricky advertising; you may get a great future at UT, but that doesn't mean that you won't get a better future studying elsewhere.

[wing0]

OMG!!!!

I can't get my courses!!!!!
WTF!!!!

Whoever comes to UT will love ROSI cuz he/she's so ROSY...
BLAH!!

[kawai]

OMG!!!!

I can't get my courses!!!!!
WTF!!!!

Whoever comes to UT will love ROSI cuz he/she's so ROSY...
BLAH!!

only ECE4XX and CHE353 work atm.

I for one am blaming ECE for this.

[wing0]

only ECE4XX and CHE353 work atm.

I for one am blaming ECE for this.

I dunno how they're gonna fix the problem without bringing ROSI down for an update.

wait....only ECE4XX??
are they giving 4th yr priority first? then what? wait till they're all done registration??

[kawai]

I dunno how they're gonna fix the problem without bringing ROSI down for an update.

I bet that they forgot to upload the 3XX series database up for sure even though ECE316 works right now.

This is just the first wave this year (last year of course was the ECE299 and the ECE221 thing). They are going to screw us on the HSS/CS with almost 0 spaces on any courses AND the whole EE/CE degree thing next year.

I also read that when they design the new system, we are not suppose to take 2 design courses etc etc etc.

The nightmare is not over yet my ECE minions, the deathmarch marches on :|

[wing0]

I bet that they forgot to upload the 3XX series database up for sure even though ECE316 works right now.

This is just the first wave this year (last year of course was the ECE299 and the ECE221 thing). They are going to screw us on the HSS/CS with almost 0 spaces on any courses AND the whole EE/CE degree thing next year.

I also read that when they design the new system, we are not suppose to take 2 design courses etc etc etc.

The nightmare is not over yet my ECE minions, the deathmarch marches on :|

We're gonna end up with a screwed up career....

[kawai]

We're gonna end up with a screwed up career....

tell me about it, prof. kwong said CE/EE on ROSI is meaningless and I am technically in CE but I am taking EE courses exclusively, and when I was talking to someone from the register office they said they don't know.

I would be pissed if I get a CE degree, I don't want to be a code monkey :(

[wing0]

tell me about it, prof. kwong said CE/EE on ROSI is meaningless and I am technically in CE but I am taking EE courses exclusively, and when I was talking to someone from the register office they said they don't know.

I would be pissed if I get a CE degree, I don't want to be a code monkey :(

I'm staying away from coding as much as possible...or else I don't see myself any different from a CS....

[TenzoR]

I'm staying away from coding as much as possible...or else I don't see myself any different from a CS....

if you don't know the difference between a comp eng and a csi ..then you deserve to code for the rest of your life ;)

[wing0]

lol...looks like it's another early morning tomorrow to register...

[kawai]

They might fix this when they are in the office but somehow I don't think it's not that urgent for them to fix it ASAP.

The problem with a CE degree is that at the end of the day you are competing with people with CS degrees and lord knows how much harder CE is compare to CS.

Also, if you are not planning to code, you shouldn't get the CE degree because it will be hard to explain to the HR person in a power company that you want to do something with let's say power generation related.

CE degree varies widely from school to school, some "CE" programs are nothing but a fancy name for CS.

[shuo85]

best in canada

[felixdd]

What good is that education and growth if you can't even get your foot in the door because that 2.0 CGPA doesn't accurately reflect your skills

Then maybe UT isn't the right school for you. Read what I said about Lakehead and York.

As for your comments regarding being able to get a job, etc. etc. Different people have different priorities; those who hold priority of learning over marks will be pleasantly rewarded, even in a university such as UT. Those who value marks above all else may want to choose a university where they know they can get good marks.

All this time, I'm not saying that UT is better than everyone else. I'm just trying to say that UT isn't as bad as what is claimed on this thread, because (1) the OP's values may not parallel everyone else's; and (2) one's quality of post-secondary education depends on how much you're willing to put in.

[trusoulja2g]

If you are in commerce, I'm sure you have first hand experience how commerce students react to recruiting sessions.


:D How do the students react to recruiting sessions?

I met a few of the ASUT execs at this accounting competition. They seemed pretty nice and normal, and were Asians who spoke proper English.

I'm surprised UT commerce has a bad reputation with recruiters. Their student clubs certainly seem to be the most professional (and have the best websites). Judging by their execs and event photos though, it is 99% Asian.

http://www.utoronto.ca/asut/
http://www.utoronto.ca/csa/
http://www.utoronto.ca/facsday/www-dataCorp/index.htm

[cuiyinghost]

http://www.utoronto.ca/asut/
http://www.utoronto.ca/csa/
http://www.utoronto.ca/facsday/www-dataCorp/index.htm


first for asian students from U of T?
second for chinese students association?

why bother? I am a chinses too

[Barton03]

Education-wise, it's definitely harder to get good grades compared to other schools, simply because UT has a 'reputation' to uphold. It doesn't matter how great your paper may be, because if there are others who've put that extra 1% into their own paper, you could wind up with a really crappy mark. The whole marking-in-comparison-to-your-peers deal really bites, but that's how it works here. Is it not the same at other schools?! The upside is that if you really do get an A, then you'll know that it's something to be proud of!

BTW, I've taken some of the courses that were on that comsci guy's transcript, and I gotta say that he's got to be a crazy genius with *absolutely* no social life. 100% in STA257 is unbelievable. That course is death. Same goes for CSC263. Usually, everyone gets a nice ass-raping in those courses.



You may have gotten a great education and grew a lot while studying at UT, which may have been your primary goal... but ultimately aren't you getting that so-called quality education and experience so that you can stand out from the rest and get a decent job? What good is that education and growth if you can't even get your foot in the door because that 2.0 CGPA doesn't accurately reflect your skills, which could've been a 4.0 elsewere. Marks are not menial. They should reflect what you learned at the school, but in many cases at UT, that's not what happens. And because of that, you don't appeal as much to employers as others with higher GPAs from other schools do.

I'm not spending $7k/yr so that I can be unemployed and in debt, and yet say to myself, "that's okay, at least I got a great education and I grew a lot."

Many believe that if they graduate from UT, they'll have a bright future. They expect to be a cut above the rest, and why shouldn't they? That's what UT is selling; their slogan is "Great Minds for a Great Future." I guess it's just tricky advertising; you may get a great future at UT, but that doesn't mean that you won't get a better future studying elsewhere.

Excellent post.

:D How do the students react to recruiting sessions?

I met a few of the ASUT execs at this accounting competition. They seemed pretty nice and normal, and were Asians who spoke proper English.

I'm surprised UT commerce has a bad reputation with recruiters. Their student clubs certainly seem to be the most professional (and have the best websites). Judging by their execs and event photos though, it is 99% Asian.

http://www.utoronto.ca/asut/
http://www.utoronto.ca/csa/
http://www.utoronto.ca/facsday/www-dataCorp/index.htm

I 100% agree with you. Our execs are amazing people, they literally put others before themselves -- they contribue 120% effort to the school. It's the students, I'm talking about. The other 1980 students.

It's like they've never been to a social gathering before. You'll see some males wearing jeans or khakis with a sweater on when everyone else is wearing a business suit! C'mon, they stand out like a sore thumb! The students at those events ask the stupidest questions (ie "So, how much can I make per year? Do you like your job? Please describe a typical day at your vocation?) WTF??? C'mon -- please speak casual english, not something you read form a textbook!

It's those students that make UT Commerce a bad name. And regrettably, there are many of them...and before I even have the chance to open my mouth, the recruiters probably have already made up their minds who they will pick (execs) so this year, I'm an exec hoping that I can stand out from the rest of the crowd.

[trusoulja2g]

first for asian students from U of T?
second for chinese students association?

why bother? I am a chinses too

Hahaha. :D No.

[commie]

Excellent post.


It's like they've never been to a social gathering before. You'll see some males wearing jeans or khakis with a sweater on when everyone else is wearing a business suit! C'mon, they stand out like a sore thumb! The students at those events ask the stupidest questions (ie "So, how much can I make per year? Do you like your job? Please describe a typical day at your vocation?) WTF??? C'mon -- please speak casual english, not something you read form a textbook!

It's those students that make UT Commerce a bad name. And regrettably, there are many of them...and before I even have the chance to open my mouth, the recruiters probably have already made up their minds who they will pick (execs) so this year, I'm an exec hoping that I can stand out from the rest of the crowd.


Don't forget the one's wearing dark dress pants, with white socks....hahaha..
those crack me up......almost as much as the white socks and running shoes with dress pants....
Don't UofT teach business etiquettes?

I'll probably bump into you at this year's informational session for my firm. I should be there, if I am not travelling out of town that week....

[lazarus]

I would go for Electrical Engineering, they get lots of research grants and they have great labs with new equipment. Of course my high school and college grades were only in the mid 80's, so I wasn't good enough for the program..

I'm not sure about the rest of the U-T programs offered, but that was the only one I was interested in..

[Coolin]

I would go for Electrical Engineering, they get lots of research grants and they have great labs with new equipment. Of course my high school and college grades were only in the mid 80's, so I wasn't good enough for the program..

I'm not sure about the rest of the U-T programs offered, but that was the only one I was interested in..
How is mid-80s not good enough? If I got into EngSci with a 90, surely mid-80s is pretty close to the cutoff for Electrical Engineering?

[lazarus]

How is mid-80s not good enough? If I got into EngSci with a 90, surely mid-80s is pretty close to the cutoff for Electrical Engineering?

Well apparently not.. I think they only used my college grades and since the Program I took at Niagara was complete crap, I'm sure they ruled me out on that alone.. I sent them my OAC grades and (HS transcript, but I did that on my own while the college grades were sent through some company..)

Ottawa and McMaster turned me down also.. lol
I should have paid more attention and called the registrar, but U-T was choice #1, and Laval excepted me right away (choice #2) so I didn't really care about U-Ottawa or McMaster ..