Racism and Toronto shootings

[mbg]

Does anyone consider it "racist" to continually deny that there is a problem in some parts of the black community in Toronto, thereby allowing these shootings to continue?

IMO, it's a bit racist to sit in middle-class, white suburbs or rural areas debating the topic while the violence continues, trying to decide on who can be the most politically correct while young black people are being shot with increased frequency.

[xxx]

Black victims were shot by Blacks.

[Shaner]

The Toronto Police Chief is too scared to admit that there is a huge problem with the black community in Toronto. He knows it and everyone else knows it, but people don't want to admit it out in the open for fear of being called a racist.

It's time to stop being PC and start admitting that there are problems in this country that involve race.

[aquariaguy]

Yup, i agree.

[UrbanPoet]

race smaace...
The root of all these problems is Social living conditions.

Im pretty sure that people living in the middle class or upper class are less likely to become drug dealers or gangsters taht end up shooting each other.

We gotta get to teh root of the problem... It could be our education system, how we help out ppl from lower classes, and even the justice system.

[xxx]

But whose fault is it ?

[Suresh]

Brown people are being shot too buddy..
I guess white people are innocent?

[sportsfan99]

Not sure about toronto but in ottawa this summer more black youths have been pulled over more then white youths.Now this is a major issue.

[mbg]

Black victims were shot by Blacks.

I agree, but we're supposed to say it's a problem of poverty or something like that... seemingly oblivious to the fact that you've now stereotyped a whole majority of people in that category who raise their families very well on low incomes.

There is a problem in some areas of the black community. People in those problem areas do not help the cops, and it does not take a genius or a high income to use a payphone to leave anonymous tips.

The absence of fathers plays a role in the problem. This is a problem in some areas of the black community. Even though admitting this would bring gay marriage into question, it is a fact.

Low incomes in the above areas may be a contributor, but it's obviously not the reason. Dealing drugs is one of many options that you have. If the other options are not being exposed, it is primarily a fault of the family.

Why can't we say that?

[xxx]

Not sure about toronto but in ottawa this summer more black youths have been pulled over more then white youths.Now this is a major issue.

A lot of Asians get pulled over too.

[mbg]

The Toronto Police Chief is too scared to admit that there is a huge problem with the black community in Toronto. He knows it and everyone else knows it, but people don't want to admit it out in the open for fear of being called a racist.

It's time to stop being PC and start admitting that there are problems in this country that involve race.

And when the bastard mayor publicly blames it on America, you know he's not going to be trying to do much to solve the problem...

[UrbanPoet]

But whose fault is it ?

We are all a little to blame... We could all do our part by political lobbying or activism. Something even as little as recongizing the issue might even help.

alot of people just think 'damn..... brotha's dying out there! what a damn shame.........' and then just straight up point their fingers 'look at these dumb people killing each other....'

For example... If you look at Switzerland as a country... They have a relatively low crime rate! Why is that? Possibly its because of how well their wealth is distributed. Thats another reason why Canada has less crime then the States. In the states only the people on time are living large, while there are ppl living low.

[xxx]

I agree, but we're supposed to say it's a problem of poverty or something like that... seemingly oblivious to the fact that you've now stereotyped a whole majority of people in that category who raise their families very well on low incomes.

There is a problem in some areas of the black community. People in those problem areas do not help the cops, and it does not take a genius or a high income to use a payphone to leave anonymous tips.

The absence of fathers plays a role in the problem. This is a problem in some areas of the black community. Even though admitting this would bring gay marriage into question, it is a fact.

Low incomes in the above areas may be a contributor, but it's obviously not the reason. Dealing drugs is one of many options that you have. If the other options are not being exposed, it is primarily a fault of the family.

Why can't we say that?

Golden Rule : See no evil. Talk no evil. Hear no evil.

[Shaner]

race smaace...
The root of all these problems is Social living conditions.

Im pretty sure that people living in the middle class or upper class are less likely to become drug dealers or gangsters taht end up shooting each other.

We gotta get to teh root of the problem... It could be our education system, how we help out ppl from lower classes, and even the justice system.

You're absolutely right, it is more to do with living conditions and social class than race. But why is it that in Toronto most of the people who live in low-income housing are black?

If a white kid gets into trouble with the law because he's poor, nobody sympathizes with his situation. People expect him to take some responsibility, get a job, get an education and make something of himself. That's always the way it's been.

If a black kid gets into trouble and he's poor, people don't blame him, because that would be racist. Instead, they blame the community for not providing a better house for him to live in. They blame the government for not providing an education for him.

Guess what. Education is free and there are tons of jobs out there, but for some reason, there are too many black people in Toronto choosing not to make something of their lives.

Why is that?

[Neonextell]

It is the black communitry that is mostly responsible for this. But then again its also how the black children were brought up. They keep getting brought up poor. And in the slums of every community. Thats how they turn to violence and drugs. If a black person was brought up without this violence and obligations to be this sterotype "big tough guy from the ghetto". Than everything would be different. Media also plays a big roll aswell.

[xxx]

We are all a little to blame... We could all do our part by political lobbying or activism. Something even as little as recongizing the issue might even help.

alot of people just think 'damn..... brotha's dying out there! what a damn shame.........' and then just straight up point their fingers 'look at these dumb people killing each other....'

For example... If you look at Switzerland as a country... They have a relatively low crime rate! Why is that? Possibly its because of how well their wealth is distributed. Thats another reason why Canada has less crime then the States. In the states only the people on time are living large, while there are ppl living low.

Well Canada is a "capitalist" country and it is not possible for wealth to be distributed evenly. If you work hard, you get rewarded.

[thelefteyeguy]

don't worry our mayor will fix everything :lol:

or have another press conference and point the finger at Mike Harris again :lol:

[UrbanPoet]

Well Canada is a "capitalist" country and it is not possible for wealth to be distributed evenly. If you work hard, you get rewarded. If you just sit and pick your ass then you will end up a beggar.

thats the truth to our culture tho...
Canada still fares better then alot of countries tho.

[konfusion666]

hmmm, nobody's mentioned former Chief Julian Fantino yet.

:!:

[xxx]

thats the truth to our culture tho...
Canada still fares better then alot of countries tho.

Yup. In Brazil, 5% of the population controls 95% of the country's wealth.

[15-20_God]

nothing will happen until a black person shoots a white person. that is when ppl will get outraged and demand action. Its unforunate but thats the way things are, happened before adn will happen again.

[xxx]

nothing will happen until a black person shoots a white person. that is when ppl will get outraged and demand action. Its unforunate but thats the way things are, happened before adn will happen again.

SO it would be better for people to live where they belong to ?

[15-20_God]

SO it would be better for people to live where they belong to ?

whatcha talkin bout willis?

[UrbanPoet]

You're absolutely right, it is more to do with living conditions and social class than race. But why is it that in Toronto most of the people who live in low-income housing are black?

If a white kid gets into trouble with the law because he's poor, nobody sympathizes with his situation. People expect him to take some responsibility, get a job, get an education and make something of himself. That's always the way it's been.

If a black kid gets into trouble and he's poor, people don't blame him, because that would be racist. Instead, they blame the community for not providing a better house for him to live in. They blame the government for not providing an education for him.

Guess what. Education is free and there are tons of jobs out there, but for some reason, there are too many black people in Toronto choosing not to make something of their lives.

Why is that?

Well think this way.. if your parents were poor, and your parents parents were poor, etc. then it just makes it harder for you to get by despite the race you are.
There could be many factors that can help explain why black ppl end up being the poorest. Ppl could say it stems from slavery, or just the way we view black ppl.

For example in my situation... I do find it harder then some other people to get by. Ive always had to work furiously to get money for my education.
Yes my high school education was free.... but when it came to university, DAMN. I wish i was like all the other kids with rich parents that would back them up.

Education is only free up till high school.
and for the high school educated, theres the 10/hr factory jobs, or retail things for the women. Try supporting a family on that :|

[UrbanPoet]

Yup. In Brazil, 5% of the population controls 95% of the country's wealth.

wow really? :-0
on paper Brazil fares as a pretty good south American country too.

[xxx]

whatcha talkin bout willis?

What I am saying is when you put different people from various background together then there will be problems and someone will end up being a victim or scapegoat.

[mbg]

nothing will happen until a black person shoots a white person. that is when ppl will get outraged and demand action. Its unforunate but thats the way things are, happened before adn will happen again.

I'm surprised that there wasn't more done when shootings took place in very public places. I think there have been at least two shootings in busy downtown areas, with at least one being right in Dundas Square.

[xxx]

wow really? :-0
on paper Brazil fares as a pretty good south American country too.

Yup and thats why there are so many kidnapping of rich people by poor people for money.

[Roninvancouver]

If you just sit and pick your ass then you will end up a beggar.

LOL

[FuNPoLiCe001]

maybe they should stop listening to rap

[mbg]

maybe they should stop listening to rap

I think gangsta rap has something to do with it, but it's more likely a combination of things, of which gangsta rap is a factor...

Perhaps:

bad upbringing + no father + no hope for the future + gangsta rap + gun = increased probability of being involved in a shooting

..or something like that.

And as the shootings continue, I am almost certain that it will lead to more people acquiring guns who otherwise would not have. It was already shown in New York that the simple presence of litter, graffiti, broken windows, etc. can make people feel less secure and more likely to abandon the streets, acquire a gun, etc, and basically turn the neighbourhood over to the bad guys. It's hard to believe that cleaning up litter and removing graffiti can reduce gun acquisition and reduce incidence of crime, but I think that has been proven to work, at least in New York.

[15-20_God]

I'm surprised that there wasn't more done when shootings took place in very public places. I think there have been at least two shootings in busy downtown areas, with at least one being right in Dundas Square.

that was because it was black on black and didn't spark as much outrage as say last year when a white woman was shot in a sandwich shop when some guys did a drive-by. A 4 year old was shot and we haven't even come close to any widespread public outrage.

[xxx]

that was because it was black on black and didn't spark as much outrage as say last year when a white woman was shot in a sandwich shop when some guys did a drive-by. A 4 year old was shot and we haven't even come close to any widespread public outrage.

Many Asians have been killed by Blacks and we yet to hear the media say "racism".

[Roninvancouver]

e d u c a t i o n.

when was the last time you heard about a shooting on campus at a university - don't really see this amongst grad students...

the more educted you are the less likely you choose violence as a method of expression.

[mbg]

e d u c a t i o n.

when was the last time you heard about a shooting on campus at a university - don't really see this amongst grad students...

the more educted you are the less likely you choose violence as a method of expression.

Not right on campus, but:

http://www.theeyeopener.com/storydetail.cfm?storyid=1940

[Roninvancouver]

Not right on campus, but:

http://www.theeyeopener.com/storydetail.cfm?storyid=1940


do you think his killers were students? take a wild guess...

[devious9191]

that was because it was black on black and didn't spark as much outrage as say last year when a white woman was shot in a sandwich shop when some guys did a drive-by. A 4 year old was shot and we haven't even come close to any widespread public outrage.

The situation is a little bit different. The 4 year old was outside with a group of people hanging out on a sidewalk at 11? pm. There was also cocaine found in their blood. I don't want to say 'what do you expect?', but what do you expect.

[Roninvancouver]

The situation is a little bit different. The 4 year old was outside with a group of people hanging out on a sidewalk at 11? pm. There was also cocaine found in their blood. I don't want to say 'what do you expect?', but what do you expect.


doesn't christianity say something about not judging....

[devious9191]

doesn't christianity say something about not judging....

Probably?

[Marlek]

Does anyone consider it "racist" to continually deny that there is a problem in some parts of the black community in Toronto, thereby allowing these shootings to continue?

IMO, it's a bit racist to sit in middle-class, white suburbs or rural areas debating the topic while the violence continues, trying to decide on who can be the most politically correct while young black people are being shot with increased frequency.

What do you suggest is the solution?

[stevethewheel]

I guess it depends on what you think the solution looks like.

If the solution involves 'community leaders' or 'community action' then identifying the community properly is important. For example if you identified the community as 'Christians' then actions by Muslim leaders or the Muslim community would not be optimal (even if they live in the same area).

Defining the community as 'impoverished' might not be cutting it close enough. Same as defining the community by attaching street borders to it. If defining the community by race/culture brings forward actions from that racial/cultural community then it makes total sense to me. I'm saying it makes sense if that gets to a solution, I'm not saying it's PC to do so.

In the interest of PC maybe we should look at the proposed solutions, and see if they are making sense to the community involved.

[mbg]

What do you suggest is the solution?

For the short-term problem, give the police the support they need to do their job. Take their balls out of David Miller's purse and give them back to the owners. Allow them to do profiling without harassment in the problem areas.

For the long-term problem, allow more conservative people to speak out on things as they see them without making them frightened of talking in public (i.e. be liberal, be tolerant). Remove the excuse of colour and poverty that is being used by the people in the problem areas to not do better.

[stevethewheel]

doesn't christianity say something about not judging....

Not sure what you're getting at Ron. I took devious9191's post to mean that the 4 year old was in the care of adults that were behaving irresponsibly, and exposed that child to unnecessary risk. The child came to harm, and it is not unexpected to come to harm when exposed to unnecessary risk.

Yes assessing risk is a judgement. No rules in the Bible against that.

[Roninvancouver]

Not sure what you're getting at Ron. I took devious9191's post to mean that the 4 year old was in the care of adults that were behaving irresponsibly, and exposed that child to unnecessary risk. The child came to harm, and it is not unexpected to come to harm when exposed to unnecessary risk.

Yes assessing risk is a judgement. No rules in the Bible against that.

really? we must have read something different.

he said...

" cocaine found in their blood. I don't want to say 'what do you expect?', but what do you expect."

that seems like judging to me...that people who have cocaine in their blood should expect to be shot at...what if it was pot?

[devious9191]

really? we must have read something different.

he said...

" cocaine found in their blood. I don't want to say 'what do you expect?', but what do you expect."

that seems like judging to me...that people who have cocaine in their blood should expect to shot at...what if it was pot?

It was the 4 year old that I was referring to, that had cocaine in her/his blood.

The difference between the two examples should be very clear, and unless you're being difficult on purpose, I would think you would see it.

Example A) White woman is in a store and gets shot in a random drive by shooting during the middle of the day. Understandable public outrage.

Example B) 4 year old child in a questionable neighbourhood is outside hanging out on a sidewalk at 11pm with adults of various ages and gets shot in a drive by shooting. It's later found out that the child had cocaine in their blood.

In example A, the woman was completely innocent, doing something that everyone does, every day. In example B, although the incident is tragic, the responsibility is going to have to fall partially on the parents, and rightfully so. So when there is less public outcry over example B, it's ridiculous to say that it was because the child was not caucasian, when that isn't the case.

[sleepyguy]

I don't think that's a justified excuse... my parents came here (canada) with nothing but the clothes on their back and work minium wage for years while supporting us. All my bros and sis went through uni with osap and are all doing well now. Work hard and you'll get your breaks... I think it's just idiots breed idiots... plain and simple... cycle repeats itself.

Well think this way.. if your parents were poor, and your parents parents were poor, etc. then it just makes it harder for you to get by despite the race you are.
There could be many factors that can help explain why black ppl end up being the poorest. Ppl could say it stems from slavery, or just the way we view black ppl.

For example in my situation... I do find it harder then some other people to get by. Ive always had to work furiously to get money for my education.
Yes my high school education was free.... but when it came to university, DAMN. I wish i was like all the other kids with rich parents that would back them up.

Education is only free up till high school.
and for the high school educated, theres the 10/hr factory jobs, or retail things for the women. Try supporting a family on that :|

[Mace]

If 8.3% of the population is comitting about 100% of the shootings you can't help but wonder WTF is going on...

I don't think poverty/social class is the cause. I know many immigrants who came from very poor backgrounds, but they grew up to be respectable individuals. They were taught proper values from their parents. Just because you’re poor, it doesn't mean you'll grow up to be a criminal. I'm a firm believer in proper parenting. So please don't say that poverty induces someone to rob innocent people of their money or commit shootings to pardon/justify/excuse violence or criminality is very much like an excuse.

I believe culture and family makes all the difference. I know of immigrant youth, of humble origins, who grew up in the projecgts - and many are in University today. And I believe this is entirely due to the influence of the parents who forced them to study and moreover conduct themselves decently.

I believe the biggest problem in the black community - which, let's be honest, is responsible for a vastly disproportionate share of the recent spate of gun violence - is absentee fathers. There is a tremendous number of children growing up in single mother environments. If the father is almost entirely absent from the child's development, if the father is not present, who is there to discipline the child? Who is there to provide financial support to move out of the ghetto? How many of the shooters grew up with single mothers? Without a strong father and mother figure in the household, many kids will stray on the wrong path of life - abetted by the lure and appeal of gangster rap culture .

So the problem IMHO is not economic, but cultural. Moreover, these underclass communities experience not only an economic deficit, but a cultural deficit as well. But because these cultural deficits - single motherhood & teenage pregnancy - are largely absent from other immigrant groups, and because these communities value education, other immigrant groups ascend the Canadian socio-economic ladder and prosper where others fail.

But the fact that it's problematic to ask questions about black crime has the same effect as racism - because the problem will never be solved. That there has been very little public outrage at the 4 year old boy's death is disheartening (compare it to the Vivi Leimonis Just Desserts shooting (http://www.walnet.org/csis/news/toronto_2000/gandm-001107-3.html) back in 1994). Why should a poor black toddler growing up in the project's life be worth any less?

If you can't ask questions about whether things are the way they seem and, if so, why things are the way they are, things stand still or get worse. They do not get better.

So until we wake up, remove our PC blinders, and genuinely address this cultural deficit, nothing will change. The shootings will continue and more innocent victims like the 4 year old will continue to be killed in the crossfire.

[Roninvancouver]

Vivi Leimonis Just Desserts shooting back in 1994

Didn't she stand up to the guy with a shotgun and start giving him a vocal lecture about the illegal nature of his activity?

[plymouthhater]

Here's my 2 cents worth:

1. We created pseudo ghettos in Metro Housing complexes full of uneducated
individuals who have NO incentive to work. It's much easier to sit around
(or sleep) during the day and then go out at night to wreck havoc on the
community (and of course impregnating as many females as possible
for recreation).

2. There is a general uncoopertative attitude (fear of retribution?) among
the neighbours that seems to be preventing them from cooperating
with law enforcement ie there is a shooting at a packed night club
and nobody ever seems to see anything or anyone!

3. Lax sentencing by the courts for offenders. I am sure that if a convicted
individual was sentenced to 10 yrs hard labour in Northern Ontario at
a logging camp, they'd perhaps think twice about commiting a crime.

I had the occasion to listen to Talk 640 in Toronto where John Oakley had
JoJo Chinto from City TV, Carlene Nation from CFTO and Christina Blizzard from the Toronto Sun as a debate panel.
Carlene Nation actually had the audacity to attribute the problem to a lack of stable father figures within certain segments of the population. She contended that the "knock 'em up & leave 'em" culture can be traced directly back to the days of slavery (ie male slave studs being used to impregnate flocks of females) ie "the people don't know any better".

[George W. Bush]

Black victims were shot by Blacks.

I agree that most violence is between blacks, or people from same community.

Yes - rare when a white shoots a black...

Anyways, I can't wait until Quebec separates! I am stocking on ammo as I type this! :) :twisted:

[Mace]

Are there any black people on RFD? I'd like to see their perspective - otherwise the argument can get a little too one-sided.

[ThinkOutsideTheBox]

There is a problem in some areas of the black community. People in those problem areas do not help the cops, and it does not take a genius or a high income to use a payphone to leave anonymous tips.
And what do you think the reaction of some cops is when an 18 y/o black male calls in about violent crime in his neighborhood, i'm sure that he gets hassled as well, and questioned about any gang related activitiy he is involved in.

The absence of fathers plays a role in the problem. This is a problem in some areas of the black community. Even though admitting this would bring gay marriage into question, it is a fact.
WTF does any of this have to do with gay marriage? I fail to see the connection. You portray yourself quite successfully as a middle-class white male who has no idea of the hassles that ethnic people face. And randomly bringing up gay marriage in an unrelated topic thread furthermore reduces your ability to argue in an unbiased manner because your judgement is obviously clouded by bigoted ideals.


Low incomes in the above areas may be a contributor, but it's obviously not the reason. Dealing drugs is one of many options that you have. If the other options are not being exposed, it is primarily a fault of the family.
Why can't we say that?
In the ghetto, in case you're not aware, there are few options for well paying jobs. You can work in a convenience store for $6/hour, or fast food for $8/hour....whereas drug dealing can net you much more. Young black males and females do not have the options for successfully applying for jobs in banks, or applying for office positions, especially when they come from low-income housing and cannot at least pretend they are middle class. The barriers they face are far greater than the ones that white people face in this country, and this is a fact. As an ethnic minority, i've had to work hard for things in my life, i'm just lucky that my parents worked hard to provide for our family enough income to allow me to do whatever i liked. Unfortunetely, in a country facing a doctor shortage, we have uneducated white people complaining about no jobs, and highly educated minorities who are doctors driving taxi cabs. This system does not tend to favor the minority.

[Emancipated]

This thread resonates with the problem society is experiencing; nothing of substance is being offered, instead people are blaming one another under the guise of discoarse.

http://www.prankplace.com/images/officesigns/69002.jpg

[webdoctors]

is race really a factor in these shootings? they all seemed drug and nightclub related IMHO.

If you stay away from nightclubs and drugs, U;ll be ok. Of course also stay away from subsidized housing areas, like Regent park of course, because stupid ppl ARE DANGEROUS.

Has nothing to do with if they are black/brown/yellow/white.

I dont think we have reached the level of the U.S. where the blacks are thought to be committing the crimes, although we have a fairly small population of black ppl, tonz more Asian (Chinese/Indian). I don't think money has anything to do wid it, I went to University AND helped supported my family through summer jobs, and no allowance/financial assistance in high skule or Univ. from family.

[canabiz]

You're absolutely right, it is more to do with living conditions and social class than race. But why is it that in Toronto most of the people who live in low-income housing are black?

If a white kid gets into trouble with the law because he's poor, nobody sympathizes with his situation. People expect him to take some responsibility, get a job, get an education and make something of himself. That's always the way it's been.

If a black kid gets into trouble and he's poor, people don't blame him, because that would be racist. Instead, they blame the community for not providing a better house for him to live in. They blame the government for not providing an education for him.

Guess what. Education is free and there are tons of jobs out there, but for some reason, there are too many black people in Toronto choosing not to make something of their lives.

Why is that?


Agree with most of your points but I just want to clarify that EDUCATION is never FREE in this country!

and I'm not talking about high school diploma that will lead you to nowhere although it's a start

If you want to get ahead, be prepared to pay the prices!

[mbg]

WTF does any of this have to do with gay marriage? I fail to see the connection. You portray yourself quite successfully as a middle-class white male who has no idea of the hassles that ethnic people face. And randomly bringing up gay marriage in an unrelated topic thread furthermore reduces your ability to argue in an unbiased manner because your judgement is obviously clouded by bigoted ideals.

The rest of your post consists of excuses that other cultures with the same problems would rarely accept, but I will respond to this part about my "obviously bigoted" position.

Gay marriage is related to the failure to acknowledge the absence of fathers as a problem because society has just said, through gay marriage, that it is perfectly acceptable (and, in fact, now encouraged) for two women or two men to raise a child, thereby encouraging as a matter of policy the absence of a mother or father in the upbringing of a child. And, this is one reason why this issue in the black community would be difficult to raise.

[mbg]

This thread resonates with the problem society is experiencing; nothing of substance is being offered, instead people are blaming one another under the guise of discoarse.

Oh, it resonates, does it?

Under the guise of "discoarse", you say?

Grand.

[mbg]

I've just realized: I don't care anymore. I don't live in these neighbourhoods. Nobody wants to do anything about it. Why should I care? I don't even live in Toronto.

[Mace]

In the ghetto, in case you're not aware, there are few options for well paying jobs. You can work in a convenience store for $6/hour, or fast food for $8/hour....whereas drug dealing can net you much more. Young black males and females do not have the options for successfully applying for jobs in banks, or applying for office positions, especially when they come from low-income housing and cannot at least pretend they are middle class. The barriers they face are far greater than the ones that white people face in this country, and this is a fact.

This is ********. Stop playing the race card. I know Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, Vietnamese, Tamil immigrant kids who grew up in the same low-income neighbourhoods where these shootings are taking place. They're also ethnic minorities. But they've done well for themselves - stayed clean, gone on to University and secured good jobs, and moved out to middle-class Richmond Hill, Markham, Brampton, Mississauga...

~50% of Toronto is ethnic minority. I guess half the population will have a hard time making it in this city.

[ThinkOutsideTheBox]

This is ********. Stop playing the race card. I know Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, Vietnamese, Tamil immigrant kids who grew up in the same low-income neighbourhoods where these shootings are taking place. They're also ethnic minorities. But they've done well for themselves - stayed clean, gone on to University and secured good jobs, and moved out to middle-class Richmond Hill, Markham, Brampton, Mississauga...

~50% of Toronto is ethnic minority. I guess half the population will have a hard time making it in this city.

What i am saying is that it is easy for white kids to tell people to clean up their act and get good jobs, but it is easier for white kids to get these jobs. Anyways, i wasn't saying that people shouldn't take responsibility for their own actions, but I think that when you discuss the problems of criminal activity within a community, you should examine all of the issues, including the deeper rooted issues that go along with the violent crime. I also know lots of chinese, indian , pakistani, vietnamese, and tamil kids that are in gangs....less than the number that i know that are in school, but I still know ones that are in gangs. In addition to the fact that I know many black people that are not in gangs.

[Mace]

But one does not see non-black groups shooting at each other on a near-daily basis these days.

Of course the vast majority of every community consists of good, decent law-abiding folk. But that does not preclude that the gun violence is predominantly black-on-black, and there are issues within that community. If it was Ukrainians shooting other Ukrainians constantly I'd say what's going on with them Ukrainians - they got some problems yo! And you can bet that if it was Ukrainians we'd be telling them to clean up their act - we'd feel no compunctions about racism. But to pardon black-on-black violence is almost like holding them to a lower standard of behaviour, which is unacceptable and truly racist.

We've always had issues with communities. In the 80s it was Vietnamese, in the 90s it was Tamils. But mercifully much of the shootings that plagued these communities in the past has stopped. However for some reason the black-on-black violence still continues unabated - it was there in the 80s, in the 90s, and it has in fact escalated recently - despite that the black community has been established longer than probably every other visible minority group.

The problem is I think the black community has a victim mentality that carries over from the African-American underclass mentality (society is racist... the white man is always out to get me... I'll never make it...) which we don't see with other, more successful groups. But whereas the African-American commuity has legitimate grievances extending from slavery and segregation, I can't see Afro-Canadians having beef with mainstream Canadian society - they are all voluntary immigrants and the descendants of voluntary immigrants after all - just like everyone else.

I think it's time for yellow and brown people of this city to stand up and say something. I mean we're 30% of the population and yet we're the silent minority in all this. As minorities we can get away with saying a lot of stuff the white people can't as AFAIK we never oppressed the black folk.

[mbg]

More shootings....

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Aug. 10, 2005. 06:27 AM

Shots fired at police foot patrol

LAUREN LA ROSE
STAFF REPORTER

Shots were fired at a police foot patrol the Jane St. and Finch Ave. area by unknown assailants early this morning.

Three shots were fired at officers on patrol in the Driftwood Ave. and Grandravine Dr. area at around 1 a.m., police said. There were no reports of injuries, police said.

Police searched the area for suspects but no one was taken into custody.