Poll finds 35% of Westerners think splitting from Canada should be explored

[devious9191]

More than one-third of Westerners younger than 30 think their provinces should consider quitting Canada, showing the strongest support for sovereignty among all ages, a recent poll reveals.

Fully 36.4% of people between 18 and 29 in British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba agree "Western Canadians should begin to explore the idea of forming their own country."

The sentiment is not exclusive to youth.

Across all age groups, 35.6% of Westerners favour debating sovereignty.

Albertans lead with 41.9% support, compared to 31.9% in Saskatchewan, 30.8% in British Columbia, and 27.5% in Manitoba.

"Westerners are very frustrated with their position in Confederation," said Faron Ellis, a political science professor at Lethbridge Community College, who conducted the poll for Western Standard magazine.

He warns that, at a time when Canada is not facing a major national crisis, this level of dissatisfaction could be a sign of worse things to come.

''There's really nothing aside from the ongoing institutionalized grievances to be angry about, and for the most part in all four provinces the economy is going fairly well,'' Mr. Ellis said.

''Canadians across the country should be aware that if these are the bedrock levels of frustration without a crisis, the next crisis [will have] Westerners at least debating the concept,'' he added.

Even though most young people were not alive during divisive political crises such as the National Energy Program, "they register among the highest levels of support for discussing independence," Mr. Ellis said.

Mr. Ellis believes young people are aware of both modern and historical difficulties affecting the West.

"They hear from their parents. They hear it daily on the streets. They know about current injustices. When federal issues come up, this group sees themselves outside of the debate, their opinions marginalized," Mr. Ellis said.

Gerald Baier, a University of British Columbia professor of political science, said young people are more likely to support the idea of sovereignty because they are often more open-minded than older generations.

"The question doesn't ask them to state support for the idea of sovereignty but for the idea of exploring it. Why shouldn't you look into all ideas? It might even be a matter of idealism," Mr. Baier added.

The poll also shows 64% of Westerners think Prime Minister Paul Martin is doing a poor job of ending Western alienation.

Another 40.4% say that if the Liberal party wins the next election they will be more in favour of exploring independence.

Mr. Ellis believes these Westerners feel they have exhausted every possible solution to improve their standing in Ottawa, citing the failures of the Reform and Canadian Alliance parties to gain power.

"It's hard for any new party in Canada to do well," Mr. Baier said.

The Western Canada Concept Party registered with Elections Canada 25 years ago with a platform calling for separation of the four Western provinces, but never came close to electing an MP.

Neither have the Separation Party of Alberta or the Western Independence Party of Saskatchewan managed to win more than marginal popular votes in recent years.

Doug Christie, the free speech lawyer for Holocaust deniers Jim Keegstra and Ernst Zundel who co-founded the Western Canada Concept, announced in January the formation of yet another separatist party, the Western Block. Anne McLellan, deputy prime minister at the time, disputed any hopes for this federal party, saying, "I don't think Mr. Christie will find a very welcoming audience in this province, in Newfoundland or anywhere else for his separatist rhetoric," she said.

Bruce Hutton, leader of the Alberta separatist party, told the Western Standard: "One of the things that makes separation a hard sell is that we have to get people to think of the future, not the present, to sell our message."

Despite Western frustration, Mr. Baier said, to voters there "these parties have been perceived as fringe parties."

Mr. Ellis said the dissatisfaction felt among residents of these provinces runs deep, and should be taken seriously.

The poll was conducted by telephone between June 29 and July 5, 2005, and involved 1,448 randomly selected Western residents.

The margin of error was plus or minus 2.6%, 19 times out of 20.

© National Post 2005

http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=364af50d-4639-4add-a217-61d12836e4f9&page=1

[Lando]

No surprise to me, it has been a problem for a long time now and yet nothing gets done.

[devious9191]

No surprise to me, it has been a problem for a long time now and yet nothing gets done.

Definitely. In federal politics, the PM is elected before the polls even close in the West, and that's reflected in federal policies. No point in giving anything to the Western provinces when the only votes that count are in Ontario and Quebec.

[Eternity]

personally I don't see how separating from Canada and form their own country would improve their own economy. In fact, it doesn't at all. I am probably biased cuz I am in Ontario with the big guns, but just for example, sure Alberta got their oil, they can't make food out of oil right? Every province has their own asset to share, that's what make it a Canadian economy, and that's how a economy prosper. Now if the province were to separate, less trades will occur, less money flowing in their own "country" leads to poorer economy. Not to mention they will lose benefits for being a Canadian citizen. maybe somebody from those provinces can enlighten me on what's benefit it has to separate from Canada?

[devious9191]

personally I don't see how separating from Canada and form their own country would improve their own economy. In fact, it doesn't at all. I am probably biased cuz I am in Ontario with the big guns, but just for example, sure Alberta got their oil, they can't make food out of oil right? Every province has their own asset to share, that's what make it a Canadian economy, and that's how a economy prosper. Now if the province were to separate, less trades will occur, less money flowing in their own "country" leads to poorer economy. Not to mention they will lose benefits for being a Canadian citizen. maybe somebody from those provinces can enlighten me on what's benefit it has to separate from Canada?

Well, how it works is pretty simple. In Canada, there are basically 3 provinces that produce more than they spend (Alberta, BC and Ontario), as well as the territories, but they work a little bit differently.

The West (with the exception of BC) tends to have different social views than the East. In Canada, politics are geared towards the East, particularly when it comes to social policies. The problem with this, is that you have provinces like Alberta that pay out far more than they spend supporting a country which they don't feel even listens to their opinions (and it doesn't).

So what is the benefit for a province like Alberta to stay a part of Canada? They could sell their oil to the US. They could explore private healthcare, and they could give one way bus tickets to everyone on welfare in the whole province to Ontario. So why would they want to stay?

[cipher]

Manitoba should be considered both West and East...we're smack dab in the middle.

[Txiasaeia]

personally I don't see how separating from Canada and form their own country would improve their own economy. In fact, it doesn't at all. I am probably biased cuz I am in Ontario with the big guns, but just for example, sure Alberta got their oil, they can't make food out of oil right? Every province has their own asset to share, that's what make it a Canadian economy, and that's how a economy prosper. Now if the province were to separate, less trades will occur, less money flowing in their own "country" leads to poorer economy. Not to mention they will lose benefits for being a Canadian citizen. maybe somebody from those provinces can enlighten me on what's benefit it has to separate from Canada?

Alberta also has beef. Saskatchewan has grain. BC has lumber and all sorts of fishing exports. Your argument that, if the west separates from Canada they will lose money because of less trades, doesn't hold water: Canada is minscule compared to the US (in terms of population), and yet we still seem to be doing fine as a separate country.

You're right - you're from Ontario and you don't get it. For example, Devious mentioned that the PM typically gets chosen before the polls close here; why should anybody here bother to vote if it doesn't make a difference?

I'd definitely like to explore some options for the West ceding from the confederacy. Why? Because all people ever hear about it is mostly useless info, like the article. I'd like to know if it's economically feasable, how the new country would interact with the rest of Canada, and in short whether it would work.

I don't hate Ontario or Quebec by any stretch of the imagination, but the western provinces need to do what's best for *us*. In my opinion, that doesn't mean staying within a country that obviously cares little about us - except when it comes time for transfer payments to be made.

[Eternity]

Fine, so what if BC and Alberta have surpluses? It doesn't mean anything in terms of future stability. you can't say Canada did nothing to help them get to the point of having surplus in their provinces. Whenever there are surplus, they should go and relieve those provinces that aren't doing well to get them on their feet. Not stave them to death.

What is the point of being in a country with free healthcare? we all paid for healthcare even if you don't use it now, you use it when you need to. I am sure there are times when Canada is there to lend BC and Alberta a hand when they needed it.

It might seems to be a little "communist thinking" such that we should all chip in so that everyone is equal. However it you studied it more you can see its potential benefits.

I hadn't been following politics lately, so I have no idea of the issues going on that triggers this poll, and the people desire to separate. I will agree to the point that the West may not have a strong voice in the parliament, however, that is up to the respective politician and how good of a job they do to represent their own provinces. That is the idea of having a parliament, and everyone vote for their respective ideal. Since the liberals are strongly rooted in Ontario, that has probably created an imbalance in the governement, and why so many westerners are upset.

I still stand my point that separatist wont do as well as if they all work as one country

[mbg]

I don't hate Ontario or Quebec by any stretch of the imagination, but the western provinces need to do what's best for *us*. In my opinion, that doesn't mean staying within a country that obviously cares little about us - except when it comes time for transfer payments to be made.

I hope you get something out of it -- either separation or more attention. It is only fair, seeing as Quebec gets all kinds of unjustified attention just for squeaking "separation" once in awhile. In fact, I don't think it's going too far to say that the entire country is governed through the lens of Quebec separation.

[luthair]

Definitely. In federal politics, the PM is elected before the polls even close in the West, and that's reflected in federal policies. No point in giving anything to the Western provinces when the only votes that count are in Ontario and Quebec.

This hasn't been true since the Bloc Quebecois became a federal party.

[Txiasaeia]

I hadn't been following politics lately, so I have no idea of the issues going on that triggers this poll...

Ah, enough said. In other words, you have no idea what you're talking about. Fair enough.

[jed]

Fine, so what if BC and Alberta have surpluses? It doesn't mean anything in terms of future stability. you can't say Canada did nothing to help them get to the point of having surplus in their provinces. Whenever there are surplus, they should go and relieve those provinces that aren't doing well to get them on their feet. Not stave them to death.

What is the point of being in a country with free healthcare? we all paid for healthcare even if you don't use it now, you use it when you need to. I am sure there are times when Canada is there to lend BC and Alberta a hand when they needed it.

It might seems to be a little "communist thinking" such that we should all chip in so that everyone is equal. However it you studied it more you can see its potential benefits.

I hadn't been following politics lately, so I have no idea of the issues going on that triggers this poll, and the people desire to separate. I will agree to the point that the West may not have a strong voice in the parliament, however, that is up to the respective politician and how good of a job they do to represent their own provinces. That is the idea of having a parliament, and everyone vote for their respective ideal. Since the liberals are strongly rooted in Ontario, that has probably created an imbalance in the governement, and why so many westerners are upset.

I still stand my point that separatist wont do as well as if they all work as one country


The key phrase here tho, is to "work as one country". In the Western view, its all about whats best for the Grits, and their fiscally irresponsible ways of shoving our tax dollars into their own, and their buddie's pockets. And, then its about the people who continually put these morons back into power.

I'm not sure if it is the media that skews everything so bad or what. But, if you give a kid money to buy shoes and he/she blows it on candy, its not likely you're going to give them anymore. But in our view, its like, "Oh heck, you pi$$ed away that money? Well, heck theres lots more where that came from, here you go!"

[afong56]

these poll results are not news.

at any given time, if you were to poll ontarians, i'd bet that 35% want to cede from canada too.

the other part of the equation is that a full 65% of westerners do not want to cede, in other words, almost twice as many people are federalists. there goes the story.

do some of the western provinces have a legitimate claim, valid issues regarding the unfair nature of their relationship to the rest of the country? sure. but so does ontario.

would alberta or b.c. be better off on their own? maybe. would ontario? maybe. but let's face facts, despite the b!tching and moaning, all of the provinces belong together in canada. as an ontarian, i understand and accept the fact that we are one of the provinces that carry the load, so to speak--i seriously doubt that there is a federation of states anywhere in the world where all component members contribute an equal share. this is reality. it's not perfect, but it functions.

as for that silly statement about sending welfare recipients to ontario--haha, good joke.

[Txiasaeia]

as an ontarian, i understand and accept the fact that we are one of the provinces that carry the load, so to speak--i seriously doubt that there is a federation of states anywhere in the world where all component members contribute an equal share. this is reality. it's not perfect, but it functions.

But as somebody from Ontario, while your tax dollars might be going somewhere else, at least your needs are being recognised by the government. You're getting your money's worth out of transfer payments. For us in the West, it feels like we're just shovelling money into some huge Liberal money pit and not getting anything back in return.

[Shaner]

I've been saying it for years.

The Liberals are destroying this country. People are so scared of what the Conservatives might do, that they are willing to look the other way while the Grits tear this country apart from the inside out.

During the current liberal reign, the biggest transportation system in Canada (the TTC) has crumbed almost beyond repair, the health care system is so far beyond repair that nothing short of a complete overhaul can fix it, and the education system has diminished more than ever before. Those are just some examples, there are tons more.

Say what you want about the conservatives, but truth be told, nobody actually knows whether they would be good for our country or not. What we do know, however, is that the Liberals are destroying this country.

[Roninvancouver]

for example, does it really seem fair to make the effort of paying TWO separate income taxes...one to provincial and one to federal?

even that is infuriating...why should we the taxpayer do the work of the gov'ts by filling out separate forms...let them sort it out....and if they cannot perhaps it is time to only have a single gov't ...

[devious9191]

This hasn't been true since the Bloc Quebecois became a federal party.

It is still true...

Manitobe elected 3 liberal mp's in 2004.
Saskatchewan 1
Alberta 2
BC 8

That's 14 liberal seats out of 135. The Conservatives had 68 seats in the same area. So, the liberals would have had a minority government before anything West of Ontario was counted.

[TenzoR]

sure lets all separate

who needs Canada

we can integrate ourself into the US in the near future

it sure looks like it will happen

[luthair]

It is still true...

Manitobe elected 3 liberal mp's in 2004.
Saskatchewan 1
Alberta 2
BC 8

That's 14 liberal seats out of 135. The Conservatives had 68 seats in the same area. So, the liberals would have had a minority government before anything West of Ontario was counted.

If conservatives had taken the full 135 seats they would have held more seats than the Liberals.

[devious9191]

If conservatives had taken the full 135 seats they would have held more seats than the Liberals.

135 seats is the total seat count of the liberals. There are only 92 seats West of Ontario, total. There are 308 seats in the house of commons... So, if the Conservatives had taken the liberal 14 seats in that area, the liberals still would have won a minority government.

[Headhunter]

With the exception of Alberta, I think any province/small group of provinces that separate from Canada will do poorly. Most provinces provide a selection of resources (natural, human, etc) that the rest of the nation benefits from.

I found it amusing that Quebec wanted to separate in the glory days of the Bloc Quebecois, and still wanted to use our dollar; they wanted to leave, but knew they'd need Canada's help to make it. A weird non-sequitur, to say the least...

[devious9191]

With the exception of Alberta, I think any province/small group of provinces that separate from Canada will do poorly. Most provinces provide a selection of resources (natural, human, etc) that the rest of the nation benefits from.

I found it amusing that Quebec wanted to separate in the glory days of the Bloc Quebecois, and still wanted to use our dollar; they wanted to leave, but knew they'd need Canada's help to make it. A weird non-sequitur, to say the least...

I agree with that. Although I think BC would also be able to 'make it on their own'. Quebec though would be in rough shape.

[afong56]

But as somebody from Ontario, while your tax dollars might be going somewhere else, at least your needs are being recognised by the government. You're getting your money's worth out of transfer payments. For us in the West, it feels like we're just shovelling money into some huge Liberal money pit and not getting anything back in return.

really? how long has ontario actually received back in transfer payments what it gave out in taxes to the feds? ontario has consistently 'overpaid', so to speak.

and it seems you are using the royal 'we/us', since saskatchewan and manitoba are western provinces too, or are we not counting them?

yes, albertans have gotten a raw deal, but so have ontarians. what we are discussing differs only in terms of degree. . .

[devious9191]

really? how long has ontario actually received back in transfer payments what it gave out in taxes to the feds? ontario has consistently 'overpaid', so to speak.

and it seems you are using the royal 'we/us', since saskatchewan and manitoba are western provinces too, or are we not counting them?

yes, albertans have gotten a raw deal, but so have ontarians. what we are discussing differs only in terms of degree. . .

The difference is that the federal government is elected by Ontarians. While Ontario does support the 'have nots' in Canada, Ontario ultimately gets a say in how that money is spent. That's the fundamental difference between the 'raw deal' in Ontario and the 'raw deal' in the West.

[pfdude]

During the current liberal reign, the biggest transportation system in Canada (the TTC) has crumbed almost beyond repair, the health care system is so far beyond repair that nothing short of a complete overhaul can fix it, and the education system has diminished more than ever before. Those are just some examples, there are tons more.

The TTC is on the provincial level. You're thinking of when the Conservatives were in power provincially.

[devious9191]

The TTC is on the provincial level. You're thinking of when the Conservatives were in power provincially.

Transit systems are run by the municipalities and receive funding from the provincial and federal (not so much federal) governments.

[afong56]

The difference is that the federal government is elected by Ontarians. While Ontario does support the 'have nots' in Canada, Ontario ultimately gets a say in how that money is spent. That's the fundamental difference between the 'raw deal' in Ontario and the 'raw deal' in the West.

well then, i guess since that is the problem, then the solution would be to keep all of your welfare recipients, boost your electorate numbers (since our country works on rep by pop), and get more seats in the west, eh?

one of the reasons ontario got to be this large and economically/politically powerful was by accepting immigration and migration--and all of the problems that accrued.

would westerners be willing to accept the amount of socio-cultural change that an influx of population would create? that's the price to be paid if you want more power in our system--you can't have your cake and eat it too. . .

[pfdude]

really? how long has ontario actually received back in transfer payments what it gave out in taxes to the feds? ontario has consistently 'overpaid', so to speak.


Yes, this is so very true. Even the province demanded that the feds cut them some slack.

[devious9191]

well then, i guess since that is the problem, then the solution would be to keep all of your welfare recipients, boost your electorate numbers (since our country works on rep by pop), and get more seats in the west, eh?

one of the reasons ontario got to be this large and economically/politically powerful was by accepting immigration and migration--and all of the problems that accrued.

would westerners be willing to accept the amount of socio-cultural change that an influx of population would create? that's the price to be paid if you want more power in our system--you can't have your cake and eat it too. . .

They don't need more power in the system. From their point of view, the system is broken. They created their own political parties and were unsuccessful making any ground.

All they need to do is leave Canada and problem solved... that's the entire point of this thread and the article.

[Txiasaeia]

really? how long has ontario actually received back in transfer payments what it gave out in taxes to the feds? ontario has consistently 'overpaid', so to speak.

like devious says, Ontario basically gets to decide who spends that money because they elect the government. In return for transfer payments, they get power. What does Alberta, for example, get in return for transfer payments?

and it seems you are using the royal 'we/us', since saskatchewan and manitoba are western provinces too, or are we not counting them?

Um, check out my location field... <---

yes, albertans have gotten a raw deal, but so have ontarians. what we are discussing differs only in terms of degree. . .

Again, since Ontario decides where the money gets spent, I'd say that they're getting a much, much better deal than Alberta or BC.

[xxx]

Why do we get mad when Quebec wants to become independent ?

What happened to the Canadian Charter that says "Right to self determination" ?

So if Quebec wants to leave Canada then let it be so.

Canada supported the independence of many countries around the world.

[devious9191]

Why do we get mad when Quebec wants to become independent ?

What happened to the Canadian Charter that says "Right to self determination" ?

So if Quebec wants to leave Canada then let it be so.

Canada supported the independence of many countries around the world.

I agree with that. I think the reason most people (including myself) are frustrated with Quebec is all of the special priviledges that they have received for the sake of 'national unity'. After a certain point you can't help the 'if they don't like it, leave em' attitude. I personally wouldn't mind seeing Quebec go their own way... as I don't really see what they bring to the table anyways.

[ha5]

from a look at the world anyone can tell the trend is toward globalization not separation. So if Quebec,Ontario,Alberta,BC and any other province ever separates from Canada all its going to do in time is just join another Union(Untied States,EU or others)

i am not sure when we are all going to join another Union ourselves. but the trend shows it happening.. if we accept it or not.


its a fact that the world runs on money and economically its more affordable to globalize.

my 2 cent

[xxx]

I agree with that. I think the reason most people (including myself) are frustrated with Quebec is all of the special priviledges that they have received for the sake of 'national unity'. After a certain point you can't help the 'if they don't like it, leave em' attitude. I personally wouldn't mind seeing Quebec go their own way... as I don't really see what they bring to the table anyways.

But if Quebec does get independence then Canada East and Canada West would be disconnected because Quebec lies in the middle of these two places.

[xxx]

from a look at the world anyone can tell the trend is toward globalization not separation. So if Quebec,Ontario,Alberta,BC and any other province ever separates from Canada all its going to do in time is just join another Union(Untied States,EU or others)

i am not sure when we are all going to join another Union ourselves. but the trend shows it happening.. if we accept it or not.


its a fact that the world runs on money and economically its more affordable to globalize.

my 2 cent

Actually it is all over....soon it will be the end of civilization.
Too many humans and too little land to live and grow crops.

[Daemar]

I think the point of separation would be to dictate our own fate, NOT join another union such as the US. That would mean all the shots would be coming from Washington DC, and when last i checked it was way over in the east.

BC, Alberta, Sask, would be quite selfsustaining. Agriculture, Forestry, Oil&Gas, Tourism, BEEF, MaryJane, Fishing, Pulp&Paper... it's all here.

I personally enjoy being Canadian and living in Canada. All this talk is just for the distaste of the federal government... we don't feel like we're properly represented because the election is over before our polls close.

Every election, the Liberals loose ground... eventually it looks as if the conservatives might take over again. We've finally gotten the bad taste called Mulroney out of our system.

[Daemar]

But if Quebec does get independence then Canada East and Canada West would be disconnected because Quebec lies in the middle of these two places.

how is that different from Alaska or Hawaii with the US?

[xxx]

how is that different from Alaska or Hawaii with the US?

There is....People in Canada East has to fly over or drive through Quebec to get to Canada West.

Hawaiian doesn't have that problem since it can get to the US mainland over international air space or the ocean.

[Chookman]

But if Quebec does get independence then Canada East and Canada West would be disconnected because Quebec lies in the middle of these two places.

True, but Canada would never let them leave on their own terms. At minimum Canada would most likely make a condition of separation that Quebec turns over all land east of the St. Lawrence along with the city of Montreal.

I also agree that the global trend is away from separation.

[Montague]

and they could give one way bus tickets to everyone on welfare in the whole province to Ontario.
I am afraid Ralphie has already done that in the past - to British Columbia [when the NDP was in power].

[Daemar]

There is....People in Canada East has to fly over or drive through Quebec to get to Canada West.

Hawaiian doesn't have that problem since it can get to teh US mainland over international air space or the ocean.

so what's the big deal?

Quebec's not going to become a police state. They wouldn't even have an army. 1/3 of the population would leave in a mass exodus. We wouldn't need French to be an official language and so businesses can save money.

What does quebec offer other than their 'special culture', constant complaining, and hot french canadian women? I say we can do without them because they represent maybe 20% of the population but get 50% of everything dished out by the federal government. I have no qualms about Ontario, they at least do their fair share. Quebec is the Russia of North America.

[xxx]

so what's the big deal?

Quebec's not going to become a police state. They wouldn't even have an army. 1/3 of the population would leave in a mass exodus. We wouldn't need French to be an official language and so businesses can save money.

What does quebec offer other than their 'special culture', constant complaining, and hot french canadian women? I say we can do without them because they represent maybe 20% of the population but get 50% of everything dished out by the federal government. I have no qualms about Ontario, they at least do their fair share. Quebec is the Russia of North America.

I personally don't care if Quebec leaves or stays in Canada because it won't change the faith of my life anyways.

[ha5]

Actually it is all over....soon it will be the end of civilization.
Too many humans and too little land to live and grow crops.

I think governments are beginning to control populations.

i would radder build space stations then control population but.. they are doing so.

its part of the reason the united states is trying to "democratize" more correctly capitalize the rest of the world .. if you notice capitalized countries have slower population growth

[xxx]

I think governments are beginning to control populations.

i would radder build space stations then control population but.. they are doing so.

its part of the reason the united states is trying to "democratize" more correctly capitalize the rest of the world .. if you notice capitalized countries have slower population growth

Low population in rich country because it cost too much money to raise kids.

[konfusion666]

nah, cuz in rich countries we got free pr0n!

[devious9191]

I am afraid Ralphie has already done that in the past - to British Columbia [when the NDP was in power].

Yep. That's why I made the reference.

[ans2]

yes, albertans have gotten a raw deal, but so have ontarians. what we are discussing differs only in terms of degree. . .

I don't think that is true. People from Ontario have generally got a good deal.

Most of the international trade pacts have been designed to protect Quebec and Ontario. The best (at least the highest paid jobs go to Ontario). If you work for any major Canadian Corporation, the head office is in Ontario. Exceptions being French Corporations and until very recently the oil companies. Any western Canadian banker would have to move to Toronto to get any of the higher paid positions. If you wish to live in Western Canada, it would be difficult to progress to more senior levels in any major corporation. And most corporations will not move a person from western Canada to fill even a middle manager position if an equally qualified person is available in Ontario. How many western Canadians ever achieve senior positions in the Federal Government ? Close to zero. When the Federal Government spends dollars, where do those jobs go ? When they call a major Government hearing that costs millions, is any of the money trickling down to western Canadian lawyers. If when the Securities commission/regulatory bodies centralized in Ontario, will any money go to western Canadian lawyers or will companies based in the colonies have to trek to the home country to get approvals and pay lawyers in the home county to get approvals.

Ontario manufactures goods and treats the rest of Canada as colonies. Much as Britain did to the 13 US colonies before the American Revolution. The colonies (Alberta) produces raw materials (oil, grains, lumber) and sends it to the home land (Ontario). The home land converts the raw materials and ships the finished products back to the colonies (furnature, cars, rubbermaid products etc) But of coarse it costs money to ship the finished goods. So, the colonies (Alberta) pays additional shipping costs (ie more) for the cars, corn flakes etc. The home country (Ontario) also wants to keep one of their colonies (Quebec) because it is the biggest market for the Home country.

I grew up in B.C. and have gone to university in both BC and Ontario. The general attitude I found in Ontario is, "What is mine is mine and what is yours is mine too." That is why the National Energy Program made perfect sense. Ontario is good at sharing other provinces resources only when it is to their advantage. It also makes perfect sense to have all the petrochemical plants located in Ontario and to export finished goods to the colonies. Does anyone honestly believe that MP's from Ontarion are looking for everyone else's interests first before the interests of Ontario ? Do you still believe in the "Tooth Fairy" or "Santa Claus" ?

Ontario might be paying out some money to the rest of Canada. But what they get in return from all their colonies is protected markets and high paying jobs. They make the rules and regulations that protect industies and jobs in the home country. Made perfect sense to Britain when they put their thumbs down on their colonies. Eventually their colonies revolted. Hopefully, we can do it without all the blood.

I am over 35 and have untill very recently supported Confederation. I suspect it was only for sentimental reasons. Not any more. I don't think Ontario gets it. They say, look at what we are contibuting. What is Alberta beef.

So, what is Alberta getting from Confederation ? As more of us old foggies die out, the new blood is going to ask the same question. Klein is also one of the old foggies who in spite of it all still believes in the Federation.

Maybe, just maybe, Ontario will wake up one day and realize that they need to give up a little just to protect the markets and the jobs. Because people in Western Canada are just as happy to buy cars, electronics and clothes from Asia and have no local jobs to protect. I can not think of any product that Ontario produces that I want or someone else is willing to sell me for a lower price. Not "one" thing. I can do without high banking and brokerage fees, thank you very much.

[afong56]

Um, check out my location field... <---


yes, that's my point--you suggest that in ontario "You're getting your money's worth out of transfer payments", unlike the west.

well, i contend that we are getting shortchanged as well, and that sask. and man. are not. half of the 'west' are getting back more than they put in, something that cannot be said of for ontario. yes, the system is unfair, but realistically, can we expect it to be? as a theoretical, it would be great, but can you imagine how messed up some provinces would be if we only gave transfer payments equal to what they contributed?

furthermore, i would suggest that no ontario premier of the last 20 years would agree with you that ontario had 'control' over where the money was being spent. mcguinty has had serious issues with martin over this exact issue, very recently.

[Txiasaeia]

Maybe, just maybe, Ontario will wake up one day and realize that they need to give up a little just to protect the markets and the jobs. Because people in Western Canada are just as happy to buy cars, electronics and clothes from Asia and have no local jobs to protect. I can not think of any product that Ontario produces that I want or someone else is willing to sell me for a lower price. Not "one" thing. I can do without high banking and brokerage fees, thank you very much.

Hear, hear!

[afong56]

I grew up in B.C. and have gone to university in both BC and Ontario. The general attitude I found in Ontario is, "What is mine is mine and what is yours is mine too." That is why the National Energy Program made perfect sense. Ontario is good at sharing other provinces resources only when it is to their advantage. It also makes perfect sense to have all the petrochemical plants located in Ontario and to export finished goods to the colonies. Does anyone honestly believe that MP's from Ontarion are looking for everyone else's interests first before the interests of Ontario ? Do you still believe in the "Tooth Fairy" or "Santa Claus" ?

Ontario might be paying out some money to the rest of Canada. But what they get in return from all their colonies is protected markets and high paying jobs. They make the rules and regulations that protect industies and jobs in the home country. Made perfect sense to Britain when they put their thumbs down on their colonies. Eventually their colonies revolted. Hopefully, we can do it without all the blood.

I am over 35 and have untill very recently supported Confederation. I suspect it was only for sentimental reasons. Not any more. I don't think Ontario gets it. They say, look at what we are contibuting. What is Alberta beef.

well, for starters, i would appreciate it if you dropped the condescension--don't assume because there are tons of teens on this site that the person you are writing to is one. i quite likely am the same age as you, have as many university degrees (3), and children (2) as you. no, i am no more likely to believe in the tooth fairy than you are. nothing in my posts speaks of fantasy--i am firmly rooted in reality. all mps will represent their constituents, so no one should expect otherwise or be surprised that ontarian mps (or albertan mps, for that matter) would have regional interests.

i seriously doubt that the average ontarian cares nothing for the rest of canada--the 'attitude' that you attribute to us is not shared by any one that i know--none. this conspiracy theory of ontario imperialism is highly unlikely. the location of head offices and the like in ontario is more easily explained by the fact that ontario has by far the largest population in the country. if you were a multinational corporation, would you put your hq in the least populated province of canada? what makes the most sense? the largest number of consumers are here in ontario.

to compare ontario to a colonial power, and the other provinces to controlled colonies, is specious. ontario's 'power' comes from having the largest population base, which gives it economic power and political power. if alberta were to match ontario in terms of population, this equation would equal out pretty quickly.

and no, i don't think that alberta is just beef but, until the alberta oil boom after the leduc discovery in 1946/47, that province was also a negative draw on equalization payments--without it, alberta would indeed be primarily an agricultural economy.

[afong56]

Hear, hear!


it makes one wonder that if westerners have so much anger for ontario, then how much venom would they have for the maritimes???

[konfusion666]

once again afong56 attempts to bring reason into a thread populated mostly by rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth Westerners.

it's no surprise that all the best universities in Canada, and the only ones which matter on the world stage, are located in Ontario+Montreal. the poor souls out West can't even get a decent education, and have to resort to religiously- and emotionally-charged arguments.

be fortunate that the land beneath your feet was blessed with black gold, because if it wasn't, your provinces would be a basket-case just like the Maritimes.

:twisted:

[Lonely Soldier Boy]

This thread is yet another example as to why people don't take opinions here seriously.

[devious9191]

once again afong56 attempts to bring reason into a thread populated mostly by rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth Westerners.

it's no surprise that all the best universities in Canada, and the only ones which matter on the world stage, are located in Ontario+Montreal. the poor souls out West can't even get a decent education, and have to resort to religiously- and emotionally-charged arguments.

be fortunate that the land beneath your feet was blessed with black gold, because if it wasn't, your provinces would be a basket-case just like the Maritimes.

:twisted:

Maybe you could point out a post in this thread that is based on religion or emotionally charged. I'm still waiting to see a post from someone from the East that provides a (read one) decent reason why that half of the country would want to stay attached to the East.

[puck]

Why doesn't Alberta join with Ontario and separate from the rest of you freeloaders :cheesygri

[Lonely Soldier Boy]

Maybe you could point out a post in this thread that is based on religion or emotionally charged. I'm still waiting to see a post from someone from the East that provides a (read one) decent reason why that half of the country would want to stay attached to the East.

Devious, you are the best troll on this board. However, you really need to reorient some of your trolls, it is getting tiring.

[Txiasaeia]

it makes one wonder that if westerners have so much anger for ontario, then how much venom would they have for the maritimes???

Despite the fact that most transfer payments do go to the Maritimes, I have no problems with them. Why? Because, like the West, they're mostly powerless, but unlike the West, they're suffering from depopulation and rising poverty due to the growing lack of natural resources.

to compare ontario to a colonial power, and the other provinces to controlled colonies, is specious. ontario's 'power' comes from having the largest population base, which gives it economic power and political power. if alberta were to match ontario in terms of population, this equation would equal out pretty quickly.

In terms of population alone, his metaphor makes sense if you look at 18th century England and the US. If Alberta had as many people as Ontario, then you'd be comparing 18th century England and France.

You live near Toronto, or the de facto hub of the country, so I'd expect you to be biased, just like I'm a Westerner and am biased the other way. Canada's current political system currently favours Ontario because of population alone. I'd say that colonialism is a perfect metaphor for the relationship between Ontario & the west.

[devious9191]

well, for starters, i would appreciate it if you dropped the condescension--don't assume because there are tons of teens on this site that the person you are writing to is one. i quite likely am the same age as you, have as many university degrees (3), and children (2) as you. no, i am no more likely to believe in the tooth fairy than you are. nothing in my posts speaks of fantasy--i am firmly rooted in reality. all mps will represent their constituents, so no one should expect otherwise or be surprised that ontarian mps (or albertan mps, for that matter) would have regional interests.

i seriously doubt that the average ontarian cares nothing for the rest of canada--the 'attitude' that you attribute to us is not shared by any one that i know--none. this conspiracy theory of ontario imperialism is highly unlikely. the location of head offices and the like in ontario is more easily explained by the fact that ontario has by far the largest population in the country. if you were a multinational corporation, would you put your hq in the least populated province of canada? what makes the most sense? the largest number of consumers are here in ontario.

to compare ontario to a colonial power, and the other provinces to controlled colonies, is specious. ontario's 'power' comes from having the largest population base, which gives it economic power and political power. if alberta were to match ontario in terms of population, this equation would equal out pretty quickly.

and no, i don't think that alberta is just beef but, until the alberta oil boom after the leduc discovery in 1946/47, that province was also a negative draw on equalization payments--without it, alberta would indeed be primarily an agricultural economy.

You're doing a good job of skirting the actual issue. What is a good reason that anything west of Ontario should remain part of Canada? Canada is literally falling apart under our current government.

Our health care is in the worst shape it's been in since the public system was adopted, and nothing points to it getting better.

Our military can't defend our country domestically, let alone meet it's UN and NATO obligations.

Our universities are quickly becoming a joke, with every moron and his brother getting degrees for doing little to no actual work.

The only positive thing that the left wingers have going for them is that homosexuals are now able to get married. Congrats on being a socially progressive, financially challenged society.

[ill_mango]

Maybe you could point out a post in this thread that is based on religion or emotionally charged. I'm still waiting to see a post from someone from the East that provides a (read one) decent reason why that half of the country would want to stay attached to the East.

Because....if you separated you wouldn't know which basketball team to cheer for?

*rim shot*

[devious9191]

Devious, you are the best troll on this board. However, you really need to reorient some of your trolls, it is getting tiring.

lol.. Why not answer the question, or not post at all? If you want to disagree with my opinion, feel free. If you want to disagree with it and contribute something to the discussion (other than "I can't argue with you, so I'll just insult you"), that would be even better.

[devious9191]

Because....if you separated you wouldn't know which basketball team to cheer for?

*rim shot*

I'm from Ottawa, and never been West of Thunder Bay... ;) My fiance's from San Antonio, so my basketball team to cheer for has been chosen for me.

[konfusion666]

I can not think of any product that Ontario produces that I want or someone else is willing to sell me for a lower price. Not "one" thing.

As an enterprise founded and run by Ontarians, I expect you to deactivate your RedFlagDeals.com account immediately.

...

Still waiting, hypocrite.

[konfusion666]

lol.. Why not answer the question, or not post at all? If you want to disagree with my opinion, feel free. If you want to disagree with it and contribute something to the discussion (other than "I can't argue with you, so I'll just insult you"), that would be even better.

you have the same "complaints" that you (and your great leader, Herr Harper) always do; military, health care, and education. there is no point in anyone trying to dispute your "complaints" since you don't even provide factual back-up for your claims that those 3 institutions are "falling apart".

in fact, it is incredibly easy for anyone who (1) reads the newspaper or (2) knows how to use Google, to provide factual backup to counter your "complaints". perhaps that's why you like to make unsubstantiated statements. yes, you are a troll.

[devious9191]

you have the same "complaints" that you (and your great leader, Herr Harper) always do; military, health care, and education. there is no point in anyone trying to dispute your "complaints" since you don't even provide factual back-up for your claims that those 3 institutions are "falling apart".

in fact, it is incredibly easy for anyone who (1) reads the newspaper or (2) knows how to use Google, to provide factual backup to counter your "complaints". perhaps that's why you like to make unsubstantiated statements. yes, you are a troll.

You're welcome to feel free, to dispute any *one of the three. You're absolutely right, it's a common argument against the liberal government. Since it's a common argument, it stands to reason that someone has already disputed it for you and you just need to paste their argument, and I'll read it for you.

From where I'm sitting:

We have lost more soldiers in the last 5 years due to faulty equipment than enemy fire. We have no way to rapidly transport men overseas without renting the use of another nations aircraft.

Our health care system currently has more money being spent on it than it has since its implementation. Meanwhile, our wait times are the longest that they have ever been. Something like 30 people have died while waiting for heart surgery (read preventable deaths) in the last 18 months. We spend 40% of our taxes on this system...

And education, I'm not even going to get into.

[devious9191]

As an enterprise founded and run by Ontarians, I expect you to deactivate your RedFlagDeals.com account immediately.

...

Still waiting, hypocrite.

I'm sure that he was referring to 'tangible' goods.

[camzie]

Quit focussing on economic and social pros and cons of staying / leaving confederation. Personally, I believe all the provinces are stronger together than apart because of some serious scope and scale issues. But besides the point:

The very minute a province of any economic significance leaves the confederation, is the minute that the united states will simply annex canada.

[Txiasaeia]

Quit focussing on economic and social pros and cons of staying / leaving confederation. Personally, I believe all the provinces are stronger together than apart because of some serious scope and scale issues.

If you're implying that, individually, the provinces of Canada would fail because of their size, you need only to look at Europe: Liechenstein, for instance, has a population of some 32,000 people, and they're doing quite well for themselves with a very high standard of living.

[grant]

at any given time, if you were to poll ontarians, i'd bet that 35% want to cede from canada too.

the other part of the equation is that a full 65% of westerners do not want to cede, in other words, almost twice as many people are federalists. there goes the story.


Just remember, revolutions tend to start when there's a 1:1:1 split...

1/3 want independence
1/3 oppose independence
1/3 are neutral...

Polls just a few years ago put separatist sentiments in BC at ~9%... now it's up to 30% ... that is the story and woe to those who ignore the implications.

[konfusion666]

If you're implying that, individually, the provinces of Canada would fail because of their size, you need only to look at Europe: Liechenstein, for instance, has a population of some 32,000 people, and they're doing quite well for themselves with a very high standard of living.

And of course you fail to mention the European Union, which is moving in the direction of eventually creating a European Superstate.

[afong56]

In terms of population alone, his metaphor makes sense if you look at 18th century England and the US. If Alberta had as many people as Ontario, then you'd be comparing 18th century England and France.

You live near Toronto, or the de facto hub of the country, so I'd expect you to be biased, just like I'm a Westerner and am biased the other way. Canada's current political system currently favours Ontario because of population alone. I'd say that colonialism is a perfect metaphor for the relationship between Ontario & the west.

sorry i couldn't post until now, but went to see the jays game in toronto tonight. wish you guys in the west had to deal with the ridiculous traffic jams that plague this city.

txiasaeia, i still don't see the validity of this allusion to colonialism. colonialism (especially the british version used as an example) combined political/military/economic control by the mother country over its client/satellite nations, which could not be alleviated by anything other than a revolution.

this is not the case in canada, and you admit as much. the west (and i don't see it as some monolithic entity--there's a huge difference between each province) has an obvious recourse to increasing their 'control' over the federal government structure--increase their population.

for the original comparison to be accurate, the u.s. would have been able attain equality with britain if it merely increased its population. this obviously wasn't true.

every time someone from alberta says that they should secede, and demands 'reasons' why they should stay in canada, i would suggest that ontario could make the same demand.

sometimes i wonder if this country would still exist, if it were not for the solid foundation of federalism that exists in ontario.

[afong56]

You're doing a good job of skirting the actual issue. What is a good reason that anything west of Ontario should remain part of Canada? Canada is literally falling apart under our current government.

Our health care is in the worst shape it's been in since the public system was adopted, and nothing points to it getting better.

Our military can't defend our country domestically, let alone meet it's UN and NATO obligations.

Our universities are quickly becoming a joke, with every moron and his brother getting degrees for doing little to no actual work.

The only positive thing that the left wingers have going for them is that homosexuals are now able to get married. Congrats on being a socially progressive, financially challenged society.

notwithstanding the distribution of equalization payments, you do realize that health care and education, two of the three points you make as a way of criticizing 'our current government', are both provincial jurisdictions?
once the money is handed over to the provinces, the federal government loses control--this is mandated by the constitution.

as for the military, canada needs to redefine what its role will be in the post coldwar, post 9/11 world. i think we continue to cling to the idea of being the world's peacekeepers, not understanding that thanks to the end of the cold war and the beginning of the war on terrorism, this has destabilized the world order, creating an exponential growth in demand for canada's ''skill''. having a family member in the forces, i know full well how strained our military is.

what canada needs to do is make a clear re-evaluation of what our goals are. this will determine whether to continue (which would necessitate increased funding) or reduction. frankly, i'm for reduction (although senator dallaire makes a pretty convincing argument for the opposite--an increase in canada's international role)

[Emancipated]

Ah, enough said. In other words, you have no idea what you're talking about. Fair enough.


Don't be a jerk. He's trying to tease out the reasons why this poll arosed, because he isn't as enlightened as some of you. As Canadians, we should all be concerned. More importantly, as a Canadian voter, it's in the collective best interest we allstay educated to what's really happening. If you can't be bothered to educate those of us in the dark, then hopefully through my diatribe, someone else can. Where's your Canadian spirit? :D

[konfusion666]

Where's your Canadian spirit? :D

Westerners/Conservatives don't have any Canadian spirit. If there was such a thing as "Anti-Canadian Racism", they'd be guilty of it to the nth degree. Just look at devious911's flamebait... err, I mean "posts". Can you honestly say that someone with greater than a 10th Grade education can say what he does with a straight face? ;)

[konfusion666]

I'm sure that he was referring to 'tangible' goods.

Which is why the first example he used was:

I can do without high banking and brokerage fees, thank you very much.

Banking is a service, not a tangible good. Capiche? No? That's ok, I don't expect too much from you.

[devious9191]

Which is why the first example he used was:



Banking is a service, not a tangible good. Capiche? No? That's ok, I don't expect too much from you.

It's easy to quote things out of context isn't it?

Maybe, just maybe, Ontario will wake up one day and realize that they need to give up a little just to protect the markets and the jobs. Because people in Western Canada are just as happy to buy cars, electronics and clothes from Asia and have no local jobs to protect. I can not think of any product that Ontario produces that I want or someone else is willing to sell me for a lower price. Not "one" thing.

[devious9191]

Westerners/Conservatives don't have any Canadian spirit. If there was such a thing as "Anti-Canadian Racism", they'd be guilty of it to the nth degree. Just look at devious911's flamebait... err, I mean "posts". Can you honestly say that someone with greater than a 10th Grade education can say what he does with a straight face? ;)

lol. Yeah, my 'flamebait' indeed. I try and keep my head out of the sand, and contrary to what your government is telling you, this country is going downhill without any plan to put on the brakes, let alone reverse its direction.

Can you even name one thing that has occurred in this country within the last 10 years that has increased the quality of life for the average Canadian? I can name 15 that have done the opposite ;)

[devious9191]

Don't be a jerk. He's trying to tease out the reasons why this poll arosed, because he isn't as enlightened as some of you. As Canadians, we should all be concerned. More importantly, as a Canadian voter, it's in the collective best interest we allstay educated to what's really happening. If you can't be bothered to educate those of us in the dark, then hopefully through my diatribe, someone else can. Where's your Canadian spirit? :D

I don't think he was being a 'jerk'. When people make uninformed opinions it takes away from the discussion. Of course, if noone made uninformed opinions, there would be 3 or 4 posters in this thread rather than 15, and konfusion would hardly post at all (in this thread or any other..) ;)

[Txiasaeia]

I don't think he was being a 'jerk'. When people make uninformed opinions it takes away from the discussion. Of course, if noone made uninformed opinions, there would be 3 or 4 posters in this thread rather than 15, and konfusion would hardly post at all (in this thread or any other..) ;)

Well, I wasn't exactly being nice, either. It's just frustrating trying to discuss any particular topic with somebody who obviously doesn't know what they're talking about, whether they admit it or not. It's so flipping easy to find out info on the Net that *not* knowing about any particular topic & posting your opinion about it is vaguely insulting - it's wasting my time and everybody else's time.

Having said that, I shouldn't have been so dismissive in this thread to whatshisface.

[sumfunny]

notwithstanding the distribution of equalization payments, you do realize that health care and education, two of the three points you make as a way of criticizing 'our current government', are both provincial jurisdictions?
once the money is handed over to the provinces, the federal government loses control--this is mandated by the constitution.

as for the military, canada needs to redefine what its role will be in the post coldwar, post 9/11 world. i think we continue to cling to the idea of being the world's peacekeepers, not understanding that thanks to the end of the cold war and the beginning of the war on terrorism, this has destabilized the world order, creating an exponential growth in demand for canada's ''skill''. having a family member in the forces, i know full well how strained our military is.

what canada needs to do is make a clear re-evaluation of what our goals are. this will determine whether to continue (which would necessitate increased funding) or reduction. frankly, i'm for reduction (although senator dallaire makes a pretty convincing argument for the opposite--an increase in canada's international role)

Canada health act *cough* *cough* but you make some valid points, what no one seems to be discussing is the lack of any political influence from the west, and that is the real driver resentment from the west. Look at how conservatives in ontario are so against harper or any one who has had anything to do with the former very popular canadian alliance which was founded in the west.

[konfusion666]

Of course, if noone made uninformed opinions, there would be 3 or 4 posters in this thread rather than 15, and konfusion would hardly post at all (in this thread or any other..) ;)

Hardy-har-har! BTW, still upset that Canada managed to make #2 on that list of "best countries in the world"? I suppose it messed with your secret plans to continue the country's "downhill slide" that it is supposedly on... >:(

[vonteego]

Canada health act *cough* *cough* but you make some valid points, what no one seems to be discussing is the lack of any political influence from the west, and that is the real driver resentment from the west. Look at how conservatives in ontario are so against harper or any one who has had anything to do with the former very popular canadian alliance which was founded in the west.

Alot of card carrying Ontario conservatives tell me the reason they dislike harper is because he rants on and on and on and on about things like gay marriage, senate appointments, immigration, and more gay marriage.

They want him to start addressing the 20% youth unemployment rate, productivity issues in Canada (which now the Liberals are championing come september), starting free trade with India/Japan, and the lack of military funding.

I'm sure if these ontario conservatives had a message for Alberta, it would be to send over someone who wants to talk about fiscal issues (trade, military, jobs) rather than social ones.

[konfusion666]

Alot of card carrying Ontario conservatives tell me the reason they dislike harper is because he rants on and on and on and on about things like gay marriage, senate appointments, immigration, and more gay marriage.

They want him to start addressing the 20% youth unemployment rate, productivity issues in Canada (which now the Liberals are championing come september), starting free trade with India/Japan, and the lack of military funding.

I'm sure if these ontario conservatives had a message for Alberta, it would be to send over someone who wants to talk about fiscal issues (trade, military, jobs) rather than social ones.

for a "conservative party" to succeed in Canada ever again, it needs to do what Mulroney's clique did -- MINUS the corruption/scandals.
i.e. slightly right of the Paul Martinesque Liberals.

[sumfunny]

senate appointments,

THis probably one of the most important issues for western canada, ever and what does ontario, even the ontario conservatives do, ignore the issue, this is why alberta wants to leave.

[vonteego]

THis probably one of the most important issues for western canada, ever and what does ontario, even the ontario conservatives do, ignore the issue, this is why alberta wants to leave.

Then why don't Albertan conversatives TELL Harper to talk about senate appointment woes rather than gay marriage constantly? Ok, so some albertans want to leave, but how about taking some ACTION and telling harper to stop ranting about gay marriage! IMO, issues that take priority over the gay marriage debate (that harper seems OBSESSED with) are:

1.) senate
2.) transfer payments (why does quebec get so much?)
3.) military funding

Please pleas please write to Harper and tell him to start making headlines with these issues for once instead of gay marriage. I mean, the ontaroi 905 (toronto suburbs) gladly voted for an extremely right wing party in the ontario conservatives back in 1995 AND 1999.

Why?

Cuz Mike Harris talked about cutting TAXES, cutting welfare, and reigning in unions.

Notice the difference?

No immigration bashing. No same-sex bashing. No social legislation. Despite the party being filled with angry men :)

[sumfunny]

I agree the headlines do marginalize him, but I think the media really loves to exagerate and stretch that stuff, I don't think that they do as good a job with other issues, think the last budget and ndp hijack.

[hagbard]

The Free Republic of Vancouver Island....like the sound of that. :cheesygri

[to_munda]

Poll finds 35% of Westerners think splitting from Canada should be explored
I havent read the whole thread but I just have one thing to say;

"GOOD RIDDANCE"

To ALL of them & also to Quebec & whoever else wants to seperate & join the USA.
My .02c worth.
:)