Poll: In wake of Iraq war, allies prefer China to U.S.

[v00d00]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/23/poll.america.ap/index.html

Poll: In wake of Iraq war, allies prefer China to U.S.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The United States' image is so tattered overseas two years after the Iraq invasion that communist China is viewed more favorably than the U.S. in many long-time Western European allies, an international poll has found.

[asim99]

good to see this posted...i read that last nite

[v00d00]

Honestly I was completely amazed to hear something officially published that people have been saying for a while now.. well not directly comparable to communist China, but that the Americans international image has become so negative.

I'm curious to know how widespread the news is circulating around the USA and what people think, especially some Americans.

[elty]

I feel surprised... I think they need to see more Chinese tourist then they may change their mind

[asim99]

where's the poll?

[biosh]

Alright! It's definitely time to switch our allegiance - the yanks have gone mad - let's form an alliance with Europe and China and move into a sane future!

:)

[v00d00]

Asim: No poll here, the article I'm referencing already did the poll.

Biosh: I think China IS the future.. we definitely need some better connections with them... and preferably a few less with the USA as I can see a nice depression in America's future.

[George W. Bush]

Well, communism after all will prevail... eh?

The funny thing with the US is that it is democratic, yet it behaves in a totalitarian ways.

[cipher]

Honestly I was completely amazed to hear something officially published that people have been saying for a while now.. well not directly comparable to communist China, but that the Americans international image has become so negative.

I'm curious to know how widespread the news is circulating around the USA and what people think, especially some Americans.

The Americans are too arrogant to really care. They think that they are justified to illegally invade another country for reasons of national "security". Their enactment of the Patriot Act reminds me of the beginnings of the Nazi Regime in Germany so many years ago. Ever since Bush took over, the USA has stood less for human rights and more for trampling on the rights of anyone from any country in their fight against terrorism.

[v00d00]

Yeah so many occurences as of lately can really make correlations between modern America and the ww2 Nazi Germany era.

Of course they REALLY don't like to hear that.. but it all seems to obvious.

[George W. Bush]

Alright! It's definitely time to switch our allegiance - the yanks have gone mad - let's form an alliance with Europe and China and move into a sane future!

:)

I totally agree with that. China has been a defensive country and civilisation as seen through their history. Aliance with them!

[Roninvancouver]

I totally agree with that. China has been a defensive country and civilisation as seen through their history. Aliance with them!


yes....Chinese communists are the best! (the best at treating humans like cockroaches)

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0403/S00077.htm

64 Falun Gong Torture Deaths in China in 3 Months
Friday, 5 March 2004, 9:53 am
Press Release: Falun Gong
64 Falun Gong Deaths from Torture in China Reported in Three Months


Labor Camps Routinely Release Practitioners on the Brink of Death to Avoid Responsibility; Most Die Days after Release


http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/images/0403/d665318b73ad7b37a256.jpeg

[cipher]

yes....Chinese communists are the best! (the best at treating humans like cockroaches)

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0403/S00077.htm

64 Falun Gong Torture Deaths in China in 3 Months
Friday, 5 March 2004, 9:53 am
Press Release: Falun Gong
64 Falun Gong Deaths from Torture in China Reported in Three Months


Labor Camps Routinely Release Practitioners on the Brink of Death to Avoid Responsibility; Most Die Days after Release


http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/images/0403/d665318b73ad7b37a256.jpeg

Gitmo

[v00d00]

:cheesygri

Roninvancouver I hate to point out the obvious.. but that was the point of the poll.. they didn't pick a nice little happy country like New Zealand to compare the US against.

They wanted to include some kind of shock factor... and I think China was an excellent choice.

[Roninvancouver]

Gitmo


not even close my friend...not even close...combine it with the great leap forward; cultural revulotion; Tiananmen square massacre of students; butal crackdowns on disidents; death penalty galore;human rights violations bonanza; even open intellectual property theft of everything from DVD to software (for you right wingers)...there is no place on earth more evil than China run by the Communist party.

By the way, I have an MA in Chinese history from McGill so I'm a little more knowledgable than the average beek here. China peaked during the T'ang dynasty and has gone downhill ever since.

[Roninvancouver]

:cheesygri

Roninvancouver I hate to point out the obvious.. but that was the point of the poll.. they didn't pick a nice little happy country like New Zealand to compare the US against.

They wanted to include some kind of shock factor... and I think China was an excellent choice.


it only shows how massively ignorant most people are about the history/current policies of other countries.

Didn't I just post a thread how the Communists in China are pushing a campaign on the BENEFITS of smoking? What's that...a subtle way to manage the population explosion by killing them thru ignorance.

[v00d00]

Although the world may not be as knowledgeable on China's history as you.. I think people have a general idea of the ongoings within the country. Now as to whether China is ACTUALLY better or worse than the USA doesn't matter.. it's the fact that the world actually dislikes the USA more than China.. and no matter what you must take notice of that and wonder why, and from the US's point of view, take action to correct the world public relations flop.

By the way, I have an MA in Chinese history from McGill so I'm a little more knowledgable than the average beek here. China peaked during the T'ang dynasty and has gone downhill ever since.
Do you honestly think China is continuing to go downhill.. or do you just mean on a human rights stand point?

Again I don't know as much as you.. but I see a future of economic boom coming from China, they appear to building quite an infrastructure capable of one day taking world power control away from the US. *shrug*

Just curious what you think..

[Roninvancouver]

For example, I think what China is doing to environment like 3 gorges dam project and completely unregulated (in real terms) coal/energy industies they are poisoning the planet at unsustainable rate.

http://www.irn.org/programs/threeg/



The only positive thing I can think of what China does is provide the West with cheap commodities (at the enormous costs to the environment) - but the price is huge in the long run and our grandchildren will suffer for our sellout.

ps..sorry if i sounded arrogant/goofball with quoting my degree...i hate it when people do that...but i really do have the degree and I spent time there (about a year) so i'm a bit into the china thing...great people though..but I think not ever having a democracy has really messed things up over the years...

[elty]

For example, I think what China is doing to environment like 3 gorges dam project and completely unregulated (in real terms) coal/energy business they are poisoning the planet at unsustainable rate.

http://www.irn.org/programs/threeg/



The only positive thing I can think of what China does is provide the West with cheap commodities (at the enormous costs to the environment) - but the price is huge in the long run and our grandchildren will suffer for our sellout.

China is in Kyoto Accord, US withdraw from it.
China consume less oil, as a whole country and per capita than US.
China release less pollution gas than US.

So who is the one polluting?

And the great dam. It provides a lot of electricity. So you whine they use coal, then you whine they use hydro. What you want? Use wind power?

The fact is US pollute the earth much worse than China does.

Oh and I am pretty sure USA treats the prisoner out in cuba pretty nice!

[v00d00]

I guess I'm completely crazy.. but personally I thought the 3 gorge dam was brilliant, it will supply them with plenty of electricity and plenty of water.. that water will surely appreciate in value over the years.

As well, why not build it now while they have EXTREMELY cheap labour?

If you are referring to the way they forced everyone out of their homes.. well I just heard on the radio that the US passed a law that would allow local governments to force property owners out of their homes and land if it's needed for commercial property development such as malls.

What's the friggin difference between the two countries? heheh

(Edit: damn elty beat me.. now I'm just a repeater!)

[v00d00]

Oh and I am pretty sure USA treats the prisoner out in cuba pretty nice!
Yeah what's with that crap.. I've never really tried to understand it.. but how is it that the USA has closed relations with Cuba.. yet they are holding American prisoners without charges being laid.. IN CUBA?

Friggin beats the heck out of me.. and the stories that are coming out of that place REAK! How is it that the world can allow it? It's time to rise up!

[Roninvancouver]

China is in Kyoto Accord, US withdraw from it.
China consume less oil, as a whole country and per capita than US.
China release less pollution gas than US.

So who is the one polluting?

And the great dam. It provides a lot of electricity. So you whine they use coal, then you whine they use hydro. What you want? Use wind power?

The fact is US pollute the earth much worse than China does.

Oh and I am pretty sure USA treats the prisoner out in cuba pretty nice!

-the US is not torturing people to death en mass (that mean like 100s of people like China does monthly)

and your comment about China and Kyoto only proves that most people (like you) do not investigate beyond the tabloid headlines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_protocol

The world's second-largest emitter of greenhouse gases is China. Yet, China was entirely exempted from the requirements of the Kyoto Protocol.

China's Kyoto Protocol Hypocrisy

http://www.americaneconomicalert.org/view_art.asp?Prod_ID=1304

A "High-Level Seminar to Celebrate the Entry into Force of the Kyoto Protocol" was held in the Media Center in Beijing on Feb. 17, the day after the treaty went into effect. According to the Chinese Foreign Ministry, more than 100 delegates from government departments, the business community, and research institutions, joined with representatives of the UN to discuss the wonders of the Kyoto Protocol with the press. Vice Minister Wu Dawei praised the agreement as an example of international cooperation.

And why not? The Kyoto agreement does not apply to China as a developing country! By placing more and costly regulatory burdens on Japanese and European industry-- whose governments unwisely signed the Protocol, it will drive more manufacturing out of those countries and into Kyoto-free China.

Also posted on the Chinese Foreign Ministry website is Beijing’s official “answer� to the question, “As a country with the second largest emission of carbon dioxide, what measures will China take?� The answer was left blank. Instead, the Foreign Ministry spokesperson replied, “The Kyoto Protocol demands that the developed countries reduce or limit the emission of green house gases from 2008 to 2012....We call on those developed countries to sign the protocol as soon as possible so as to fulfill the measures taken by the international community to cope with climate change.� China is not obligated to do anything except “demand� that others carry the burden.

Once again, Beijing has deftly played the international system to its advantage.

-and your comment about 3 gorges dam...well, you really need to understand and READ about what the dam is doing...

http://www.irn.org/programs/threeg/

The project is currently facing massive corruption problems, spiraling costs, technological problems and resettlement difficulties. One million people have been displaced by the dam as of early 2005; many are living under poor conditions with no recourse to address outstanding problems with compensation or resettlement.


Smoke and dust rise after demolition efforts begin in the town of Guizhou in Central China’s Hubei Province to make way for the Three Gorges Dam Project. Photo: China NewsPhoto, 2002

Said one peasant from Kai county, "We have been to the county government many times demanding officials to solve our problems, but they said this was almost impossible. They have threatened us with arrest if we appeal for help from higher government offices.�

[cipher]

there is no place on earth more evil than China run by the Communist party.




North Korea

[elty]

Yeah what's with that crap.. I've never really tried to understand it.. but how is it that the USA has closed relations with Cuba.. yet they are holding American prisoners without charges being laid.. IN CUBA?

Friggin beats the heck out of me.. and the stories that are coming out of that place REAK! How is it that the world can allow it? It's time to rise up!

I think back then USA has a good relationship with Cuba. And they signed a deal with Cuba to lease a base. Until that guy (that communist.. forget the name) took over. But he did not press (hard enough) ask the US out, (the best way to keep the ppl on his side is to have a common enemy at the door it seems) so US continues to stay there. Of cuz US is still playing the rent, just the rent has not been appreciate for awhile.

Of cuz, no one will tell you China is good at human right, except the Chiense government... but comapred to the pass, it is already much better. Compare to the US which is getting worse.

[cipher]

I think back then USA has a good relationship with Cuba. And they signed a deal with Cuba to lease a base. Until that guy (that communist.. forget the name) took over. But he did not press (hard enough) ask the US out, (the best way to keep the ppl on his side is to have a common enemy at the door it seems) so US continues to stay there. Of cuz US is still playing the rent, just the rent has not been appreciate for awhile.

Of cuz, no one will tell you China is good at human right, except the Chiense government... but comapred to the pass, it is already much better. Compare to the US which is getting worse.


Infidel Castro

[Roninvancouver]

China consume less oil, as a whole country and per capita than US.




hahaha

why do you think oil is $60 a barrel...I'm done here...you really should understand things before you talk about...

http://www.iags.org/futureofoil.html

In the next two decades, China's oil consumption is expected to grow at a rate of 7.5% per year and India’s 5.5%. (Compare to a 1% growth for the industrialized countries). It will be strategically imperative for these countries to secure their access to oil.


http://www.economist.com/finance/displayStory.cfm?story_id=4112259

n the end, how long today's rally lasts could depend on the final factor pushing up prices: demand. Chinese oil consumption grew by perhaps 15% last year.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4716825

Lawmakers Alarmed by China's Bid for Unocal

Listen to this story... by Scott Horsley

Morning Edition, June 24, 2005 · The takeover bid by China's third largest oil company for Unocal is evidence of the country's voracious appetite for energy. The $18 billion offer is likely to spark a bidding war with Chevron. Some U.S. lawmakers are outraged at the thought of a Chinese company taking over a U.S. oil and gas firm.

[Roninvancouver]

North Korea

North Korea is a little mouse compared to the elephant known as China...like i said...most people here have no real knowledge of the history and current policies of China...just what is spoon fed to them by popular media. Sorry folks, but N korea is an easy bogeman targeted to you by the US; they are VERY screwed up...but they are not killing as many people China is daily; they are commiting theft en mass as China (intellectual propery of the West); they are really a joke of comparison. Do your own homework; not what the TV tells you.

[v00d00]

Roninvancouver.. we're here to learn.. continually rubbing your vast knowledge does little to sway our current opinions.

Why would people be trying to escape from North Korea to live in China if it's so much worse?

Is it really that bad per person.. or is just the fact that China is such a HUGE place with such a giant population that makes it a target for endless incidents?

[elty]

-the US is not torturing people to death en mass (that mean like 100s of people like China does monthly)


I agree your point. but I never said China has a good human right record at all, so next:


and your comment about China and Kyoto only proves that most people (like you) do not investigate beyond the tabloid headlines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_protocol

The world's second-largest emitter of greenhouse gases is China. Yet, China was entirely exempted from the requirements of the Kyoto Protocol.

Thank you for proving my point, you do not bother to whine the US, the largest polluter in the world but you go whine at the second largest, go figure.

USA release more than 10 times more greenhouse gas than China per capital and still about double if you rather compare the country as a whole.

http://www.globalissues.org/EnvIssues/GlobalWarming/Kyoto.asp


China's Kyoto Protocol Hypocrisy

http://www.americaneconomicalert.org/view_art.asp?Prod_ID=1304

blah blah blah

And why not? The Kyoto agreement does not apply to China as a developing country! By placing more and costly regulatory burdens on Japanese and European industry-- whose governments unwisely signed the Protocol, it will drive more manufacturing out of those countries and into Kyoto-free China.

blah blah blah


http://www.globalissues.org/EnvIssues/GlobalWarming/Articles/ChinaCuts.asp


Attempting to address global warming, industrialised nations hammered out the Kyoto Protocol, in which they pledged to reduce their emission by five to seven percent below 1990 levels by 2012. Under the treaty, developing nations, including China, do not have to commit to binding emission reduction targets.

Nevertheless, the researchers found, Chinese carbon dioxide emissions produced from the combustion of fossil fuels declined by 8.8 percent from 1996 to 2000 - an even greater reduction than the 7.3 percent drop for emissions from all sources.

By contrast, Western Europe increased its carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuel combustion by 4.5 percent from 1995 to 1999 and the United States increased its emissions by 6.3 percent.


Guess who is increasing the pollution here.



-and your comment about 3 gorges dam...well, you really need to understand and READ about what the dam is doing...

http://www.irn.org/programs/threeg/

The project is currently facing massive corruption problems, spiraling costs, technological problems and resettlement difficulties. One million people have been displaced by the dam as of early 2005; many are living under poor conditions with no recourse to address outstanding problems with compensation or resettlement.


Smoke and dust rise after demolition efforts begin in the town of Guizhou in Central China’s Hubei Province to make way for the Three Gorges Dam Project. Photo: China NewsPhoto, 2002

Said one peasant from Kai county, "We have been to the county government many times demanding officials to solve our problems, but they said this was almost impossible. They have threatened us with arrest if we appeal for help from higher government offices.�

And what is your point? You can say the adminstration sucks and I will agree that woth you. However, you cannot deny the benefit that the dam can provide: a lot of electricty that is relatively clean.

and smoke and dust? since when construction will not produce smoke and dust? You whine they use coal power, then you whine about using hydro energy because there is dust during construction? Please teach the world how to construct something without dust and smoke, k thx.

[Roninvancouver]

Roninvancouver.. we're here to learn.. continually rubbing your vast knowledge does little to sway our current opinions.

?

sorry, and yes i know i come off that way at times...the web sucks for communicating subtleties...i'm not that much of a prick in real life..at this point i have a need to immerse myself in something which is good:

http://cookie.allrecipes.com/az/RockyRoadFudgeBars.asp

have to run...ciao friends.

[elty]

hahaha

why do you think oil is $60 a barrel...I'm done here...you really should understand things before you talk about...

http://www.iags.org/futureofoil.html

In the next two decades, China's oil consumption is expected to grow at a rate of 7.5% per year and India’s 5.5%. (Compare to a 1% growth for the industrialized countries). It will be strategically imperative for these countries to secure their access to oil.

http://www.economist.com/finance/displayStory.cfm?story_id=4112259

n the end, how long today's rally lasts could depend on the final factor pushing up prices: demand. Chinese oil consumption grew by perhaps 15% last year.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4716825



Please tell me which country consume more oil per capita. I am curious to learn it from you. I have learnt a lot from you about how China pollute the world, but what about the United States? I am eager to learn as you claim yourself "do all the homework" and "read more than just the headline"


Lawmakers Alarmed by China's Bid for Unocal

Listen to this story... by Scott Horsley

Morning Edition, June 24, 2005 · The takeover bid by China's third largest oil company for Unocal is evidence of the country's voracious appetite for energy. The $18 billion offer is likely to spark a bidding war with Chevron. Some U.S. lawmakers are outraged at the thought of a Chinese company taking over a U.S. oil and gas firm.

Dude, USA can invest in China but not the other way around? What's wrong with your head?

[v00d00]

sorry, and yes i know i come off that way at times...the web sucks for communicating subtleties...i'm not that much of a prick in real life.

Not a prick..

Anyway, I'm not saying China is a great place for any reason.. but could the enormous bulk of negative publicity be attributed to the large bulk of land, bulk resources, bulk poverty, bulk populations..etc Is it realistic to consider China is maybe constructing and developing itself into a potential first world nation in the near or not too distant future?

But no matter what the country the USA is compared to.. the point is that they are not keeping up with the global relationships other countries are maintaining with each other.

[Daemar]

When you're quoting per capita numbers, note that China's population is more than 3 times the population of the US. So when you divide a figure by 1.2 billion and the other by 400 million, things might look a little different. In this case, i think we need to look at the whole picture... if you go per capita, that means China should be able to pollute/consume 3 times more than the US in order to be on par with the US. I really hope that doesn't happen or we're all screwed.

[v00d00]

Well why not.. every person on the planet is ... A PERSON!

Each person should in a perfect world be equal.

So every person in China should have the same rights as every person in the USA.. including the average consumption and pollution.

We seem to look at China as the poor country that sacrifices for us.. that they shouldn't be allowed to make wealth or own cars and fill it was gasoline. They should be forced to ride bicycles, so that WE can drive our Hummers to Walmart to buy some cheap Chinese made products.

I think it's only fair to divide everything on an average per person to see who is doing what.

It's unfair to allow a tiny island nation of say 5 million people to pollute 10 times more per person, just because the total is VERY much less than Chinas total.

[neilson]

Ju Jintao = Not such a bad man. Hell the only reason they're still keeping up the whole totalitatarian crap in the mist of the Capitalist Evolution is because the guys at the top know they would fry if there was a toppling of the Gov't. Way I see it, China has always been an evolution. Dynasties rise and fall, but the bureaurocy(sic) stays the same. We're seeing that evolution, and I have a feeling that within the Generation, we'll see Taiwan become a moot point; in essence be handled a la Hong Kong, with not a shot fired.

[George W. Bush]

I personally would too agree with what China does to criminals, corruption and illegal activities. Take all those bastards/biatches out of the game.

The US is putting them in prison, and taxpayers are paying for their food and living conditions.

China is cleaning the streets and using them as examples!

Only through actions will one country clean the filth.

China is actually doing more to benefit the world than the US is.

The US has become what China was though of during the 1990's, thanks to the propaganda machines US has built!

Go China Go!

[hagbard]

For example, I think what China is doing to environment like 3 gorges dam project and completely unregulated (in real terms) coal/energy industies they are poisoning the planet at unsustainable rate.

http://www.irn.org/programs/threeg/



The only positive thing I can think of what China does is provide the West with cheap commodities (at the enormous costs to the environment) - but the price is huge in the long run and our grandchildren will suffer for our sellout.

ps..sorry if i sounded arrogant/goofball with quoting my degree...i hate it when people do that...but i really do have the degree and I spent time there (about a year) so i'm a bit into the china thing...great people though..but I think not ever having a democracy has really messed things up over the years...

I agree with you regarding the PRC, but you're missing the point. People are commenting on the US in regards to their foreign policy decisions of the past few years (actually, the US has been pushing its weight around for much longer than that, but now people are waking up to that fact). No doubt about it though, the way that the PRC treats the people under their control is barbaric. Not sure what we can do about it, however, and I suspect the reign of terror can't last in the face of economic prosperity.

[d_jedi]

Well why not.. every person on the planet is ... A PERSON!

Each person should in a perfect world be equal.

So every person in China should have the same rights as every person in the USA.. including the average consumption and pollution.

We seem to look at China as the poor country that sacrifices for us.. that they shouldn't be allowed to make wealth or own cars and fill it was gasoline. They should be forced to ride bicycles, so that WE can drive our Hummers to Walmart to buy some cheap Chinese made products.

I think it's only fair to divide everything on an average per person to see who is doing what.

It's unfair to allow a tiny island nation of say 5 million people to pollute 10 times more per person, just because the total is VERY much less than Chinas total.
Because the large population of China hides huge environmental atrocities committed by them by industrial/manufacuring processes.

I'm not saying the US is an angel when it comes to pollution (it's far from it), but China is worse. Their emission/evironmental standards are appalling.

[Menace]

What fcuking communism there? It is only get richism in China.

Well, communism after all will prevail... eh?

The funny thing with the US is that it is democratic, yet it behaves in a totalitarian ways.

[b166er1337]

I totally agree with that. China has been a defensive country and civilisation as seen through their history. Aliance with them!

Ha...tell THAT to the Tibetians

[hagbard]

What fcuking communism there? It is only get richism in China.

Communism is a facade for a brutal dictatorship.

[chickenbones]

O well, all points aside, at least China's "evil" within, U.S. is evil everywhere else except within. That's the point of the poll anyway, it's how the world views the two countries.

Labour camps aren't so bad, prisoners here do labour all the time what's so different.

A lot of the "torture" in labour camps are greatly exaggerated, by ppl who are strongly against communism.

Hey, in the old days when the U.S.S.R. was strong there was even a push for communism in the west. What happend to those ppl? They are tortured and oppressed I suggest you look into that too.

As for issues relating to the environment, China is not the only country exempt from environmental treaties. This is to protect developing countries and give them a chance to develop. Developed countries had their turn for a basically unrestricted development, then they turn around and tell others that they can't do the same??

China is merely going through what the west went through years ago. In terms of industrialization, and socially.

You can't blame the executions on the government, that has something to do with the culture. Most ppl see no problem with killing killers, drug dealers, and even officials who take bribes.

Bottomline, China has improved over the years, it's only going through what others (democratic) countries have been through. Communism has its good and bad, so does democracy. So live with it.

[v00d00]

Labour camps aren't so bad, prisoners here do labour all the time what's so different.
The US likes to make laws, then throw it's own people in prison for breaking them.. just so they can get cheap labour they couldn't get from law abiding citizens with "rights".

http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/censusstatistic/a/aaprisonpop.htm

U.S. Prison Population Tops 2 Million - 1 in 142 US Residents is now in prison

[Roninvancouver]

Communism has its good and bad, so does democracy. So live with it.

And if not; die with it.

And seems like more people die under communism than any other political system.

Only a complete and total _____ would defend communism. Your glibness is barbaric.

Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Twentieth Century Hemoclysm

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm

People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975): 40 000 000 DEAD

Tibet under Communist China (1950 et seq.): 600 000 DEAD

Chinese Civil War (1945-49): 2 500 000 DEAD
(Democide by Communists: 2,323,000)

Soviet Union, Stalin's Communist regime (1924-53): 20 000 000 DEAD

[chickenbones]

And if not; die with it.

And seems like more people die under communism than any other political system.

Only a complete and total _____ would defend communism. Your glibness is barbaric.

Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Twentieth Century Hemoclysm

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm

People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975): 40 000 000 DEAD

Tibet under Communist China (1950 et seq.): 600 000 DEAD

Chinese Civil War (1945-49): 2 500 000 DEAD
(Democide by Communists: 2,323,000)

Soviet Union, Stalin's Communist regime (1924-53): 20 000 000 DEAD

You seem to forget that there are more ppl in those two countries? and the fact that WAR and famine is responsible for most of the death. Plus I never said anything about this.

You quoted one sentence from my post and taking it out of context to call me barbaric?

I was merely talking about environmental impact of industrialization! If taking things out of context is the only way you can debate then you don't deserve your degree.

[v00d00]

So many people die in China, yet they still manage to keep over populated.

They seem to be a very resilient people.

ANYWAY.. it's funny that the thread and poll taken is regarding the opinion people have of the US.. yet instead of the US coming into question, the debate has gone back to China's problems.

What gives?

[hagbard]

So many people die in China, yet they still manage to keep over populated.

They seem to be a very resilient people.

ANYWAY.. it's funny that the thread and poll taken is regarding the opinion people have of the US.. yet instead of the US coming into question, the debate has gone back to China's problems.

What gives?

Yeah, lets get back to America bashing!!! :lol:

[chickenbones]

So many people die in China, yet they still manage to keep over populated.

They seem to be a very resilient people.

ANYWAY.. it's funny that the thread and poll taken is regarding the opinion people have of the US.. yet instead of the US coming into question, the debate has gone back to China's problems.

What gives?

Well every thread regarding China turns into China bashing regardless of topic and what the original issue was.

[grant]

I think back then USA has a good relationship with Cuba. And they signed a deal with Cuba to lease a base. Until that guy (that communist.. forget the name) took over. But he did not press (hard enough) ask the US out, (the best way to keep the ppl on his side is to have a common enemy at the door it seems) so US continues to stay there. Of cuz US is still playing the rent, just the rent has not been appreciate for awhile.

Rumour has it Castro refuses to cash the rent cheques.

It's a great place to hold prisoners... it's not u.s. soil, not connected to the mainland, and entirely military controlled.

[gordholio]

Let me just ask a simple question. Where would you rather live?
The United States or China?
If you say China, I don't know what you're smokin'.
Look at censorship of the internet for example in China. Sure, there are bad things on the internet, but the Chinese government censors out whatever it wants, whether it's good or bad.

China - State Control of the Internet (http://web.amnesty.org/web/content.nsf/pages/gbr_china_internet)

A Gay Pride Parade went on in Toronto today - and across the US and other countries. Was there one in China?
Just a question.

As for Europeans having a better opinion of China than the US? It's incredible that they would think like that - and disturbing.

[hagbard]

Let me just ask a simple question. Where would you rather live?
The United States or China?


Hongkong China. Seriously. Trying to talk my wife into it now.

[Rehan]

As for Europeans having a better opinion of China than the US? It's incredible that they would think like that - and disturbing.It's obvious that two of the main factors in those opinions of the US are their foreign policy and military actions. If someone can't understand why those would drop the US favoribility rating, then that's even more incredible and disturbing.

As for living in US vs. China, I'm sure there are plenty of people that would choose based not only on how their government treats the citizens but also how it treats others around the world.

[Montague]

Let me just ask a simple question. Where would you rather live?
The United States or China?

Neither.

I perfer to live HERE in Canada.

:)

[manixc]

O well, all points aside, at least China's "evil" within, U.S. is evil everywhere else except within. That's the point of the poll anyway, it's how the world views the two countries.

Labour camps aren't so bad, prisoners here do labour all the time what's so different.

A lot of the "torture" in labour camps are greatly exaggerated, by ppl who are strongly against communism.

Hey, in the old days when the U.S.S.R. was strong there was even a push for communism in the west. What happend to those ppl? They are tortured and oppressed I suggest you look into that too.

As for issues relating to the environment, China is not the only country exempt from environmental treaties. This is to protect developing countries and give them a chance to develop. Developed countries had their turn for a basically unrestricted development, then they turn around and tell others that they can't do the same??


China is merely going through what the west went through years ago. In terms of industrialization, and socially.


You can't blame the executions on the government, that has something to do with the culture. Most ppl see no problem with killing killers, drug dealers, and even officials who take bribes.

Bottomline, China has improved over the years, it's only going through what others (democratic) countries have been through. Communism has its good and bad, so does democracy. So live with it.

I agree completely. The West has a head start and now China is catching up. In terms of the horriable things China has done, the West has done equally worst.

[b166er1337]

I agree completely. The West has a head start and now China is catching up. In terms of the horriable things China has done, the West has done equally worst.
:lol:

examples?

i don't recall any Western government orders the massacre of protesting students.

[NG]

Asim: No poll here, the article I'm referencing already did the poll.

Biosh: I think China IS the future.. we definitely need some better connections with them... and preferably a few less with the USA as I can see a nice depression in America's future.

I wouldn't say China since Roninvancover does make a very cogent point about human rights. Not saying America is any better but dealing with China still shouldn't be the solution to dealing with the USA.

However Europe is very big. Treats their citizens well and is more in line with Canada's social welfare system. I'm sure they'd be interested in our "mad cow" if they could get our energy and oil as well.

Hmmm...I smell a poll.

[jedijome]

yeah china has a real good record when it comes to invading other countries doesnt it. people seem to forget tibet and the time that china decided to attack india. yeah peaceful, my ass.

just because they invaded some poor third world countries that the media doesnt care about its ok and no one cares. of course iraq is huge and has tonnes of oil so the media makes a big stink and everyone laps that up. "oooh america is evil" :confused:

if america fought wars the way china did, without caring for human rights, then entire cities would have been levelled with artillery and bombs. "whooops sorry you're collateral damage. either give up the insurgents or we'll flatten your city." if people were tortured and you asked a chinese official he would either deny that it ever happened or just go "so what?"

thats the diff between china and the U.S. the us has to fight a public relations war along with the actual one on the ground. if china was in iraq right now there would be a complete news blackout and you wouldn't know if they wiped out half the population. the way it is in iraw right now, if theres a kid running around in the war zone and he gets shot by the insurgents it gets blamed on the americans anyways.

i'm not really pro bush and honestly i think the current govt down there is weird, but lets put things in perspective over here. america is 100x better. if anyone were to invade and take over canada i'd rather it be the US than the chinese.

oh and to that person who said that it was good that china was executing convicts instead of keeping them in prison. haha thats all fine and dandy though i'd like to see how you'd feel if you were wrongfully accused or framed for something you didnt do. "seeya later sucker"

[hagbard]

:lol:

examples?

i don't recall any Western government orders the massacre of protesting students.

Kent State.

[manixc]

:lol:

examples?

i don't recall any Western government orders the massacre of protesting students.

Remember slavery, segregation, genocide of natives in Americas and Australia?

[b166er1337]

Remember slavery, segregation, genocide of natives in Americas and Australia?



those happened more than 140 yrs ago.

Whereas Tiananmen Sq massacre occured 16 yrs ago and the crackdown of Falun Gong and every other opposition parties are occuring right now.

[b166er1337]

oh and to that person who said that it was good that china was executing convicts instead of keeping them in prison. haha thats all fine and dandy though i'd like to see how you'd feel if you were wrongfully accused or framed for something you didnt do. "seeya later sucker"

Oh, and don't forget...you'll have to pay for the cost of the shells if you are going to be executed :D

"can i have have two more rounds in my head?" ;)

Besides, Chinese judicial system is under the control of the communist party; don't expect any justice to be done upon the most corrputed officials.

[hagbard]

those happened more than 140 yrs ago.

Whereas Tiananmen Sq massacre occured 16 yrs ago and the crackdown of Falun Gong and every other opposition parties are occuring right now.

Is Israel a western country? I'm sure they kill lots of students intentionally.

[manixc]

those happened more than 140 yrs ago.

Whereas Tiananmen Sq massacre occured 16 yrs ago and the crackdown of Falun Gong and every other opposition parties are occuring right now.

Like I said before, the West has a head start. I'm not trying to defend China. I just want to point out that every country has done something that is pretty bad. So there is no need to single out China.

also 140 yrs ago isn't that long ago. That's only 4 generations back, probably your great-grandfather time.

[b166er1337]

also 140 yrs ago isn't that long ago. That's only 4 generations back, probably your great-grandfather time.

If 140 yrs is not long ago, then 1989 seems like yesterday.

[frogger]

Amazing how much things have changed in the last half dozen years with the major catalysts being China-US trade opening up and September 11th.

[gman]

:lol:

examples?

i don't recall any Western government orders the massacre of protesting students.
As hagbard said, "Kent State, May 4, 1970: America Kills Its Children (http://www.spectacle.org/595/kent.html)". Okay, that might not be government directive but American had their own blood.

[manixc]

Amazing how much things have changed in the last half dozen years with the major catalysts being China-US trade opening up and September 11th.

I actually remember before 9/11 the US sees China as their biggest threat.