[MRG] Proof of Liberal bribe attempt to Gurmant Grewal to cross the floor

[d_jedi]

Check this out:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1117534179762&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home

I haven't listened to the tapes yet.. but it appears that it was very clear that the Libranos were interested in a quid pro quo deal.. probably very much like Belinda Stronach's. AND that Paul Martin knew of, and approved of it.

[Montague]

The key question is whether the tapes show who approached who first.

Grewal or the Liberals.

[asim99]

grewal and murphy should step aside till the issue is resolved

[d_jedi]

The key question is whether the tapes show who approached who first.

Grewal or the Liberals.
Regardless, it still puts the Liberals in a very negative light.. if they had any principles, they would have rejected any attempt to bribe this guy (assuming that Grewal contacted them first).. the fact that the Prime Minister knew of the bribe attempt, and did not reject it says something as well..

It definately strengthens the argument that Belinda Stronach was given a cabinet post not because of merit.. but as a bribe (reward, if you will..) for crossing the floor.

[gilboman]

Regardless, it still puts the Liberals in a very negative light.. if they had any principles, they would have rejected any attempt to bribe this guy (assuming that Grewal contacted them first).. the fact that the Prime Minister knew of the bribe attempt, and did not reject it says something as well..

It definately strengthens the argument that Belinda Stronach was given a cabinet post not because of merit.. but as a bribe (reward, if you will..) for crossing the floor.


i dont understand how it puts them in a negative light... all we know so far is that the conservative MP's discussed with liberal about crossing the floor. but it never happened and thusfar there is no proof that liberals offered a bribe at all, only that the conservative MP's approached liberals and asked for a bribe or what they can get if they crossed the floor.

seems like the conservative MP's are the ones who have even more issues. they should be thrown out of parliment

[me!]

I have never been so excited about politics since the last couple of weeks. We get jilted lovers, secret meetings, back room deals, betrayal, blonde bimbos, bribery, scandal, tense last minute decision making by one politician, near government collapse, secret tapes, politicians crossing the floor. have I missed anything?

I have never been so enthralled by politics as far as i can remember.

[d_jedi]

i dont understand how it puts them in a negative light... all we know so far is that the conservative MP's discussed with liberal about crossing the floor. but it never happened and thusfar there is no proof that liberals offered a bribe at all, only that the conservative MP's approached liberals and asked for a bribe or what they can get if they crossed the floor.

seems like the conservative MP's are the ones who have even more issues. they should be thrown out of parliment
Well, if the Liberals were acting honestly, they never would have entertained the possibility of giving Grewal a quid pro quo deal for crossing the floor. They would have out and out rejected the very idea. But, they did not.. in fact, they received approval all the way from the Prime Minister to proceed with negotiating such a deal.

When you compare Belinda Stronach's defection, and the Grewal tapes, I see great similarities (except for the fact that Grewal didn't wh0re (***** is censored?) himself out to the highest bidder) that suggest the Liberal party bribed MPs to switch sides.

Do you honestly believe that Belinda Stronach is the most qualified person to be Human Resources Minister? C'mon.. she's a university dropout!

[gilboman]

Well, if the Liberals were acting honestly, they never would have entertained the possibility of giving Grewal a quid pro quo deal for crossing the floor. They would have out and out rejected the very idea. But, they did not.. in fact, they received approval all the way from the Prime Minister to proceed with negotiating such a deal.

When you compare Belinda Stronach's defection, and the Grewal tapes, I see great similarities (except for the fact that Grewal didn't wh0re (***** is censored?) himself out to the highest bidder) that suggest the Liberal party bribed MPs to switch sides.

Do you honestly believe that Belinda Stronach is the most qualified person to be Human Resources Minister? C'mon.. she's a university dropout!


and do you belive a bunch of right wing nutjobs is fit to have anything to do with government?? or harper can even be called a leader with the constant slumping conservative and the shunning of all moderates within the party?

i'll take a corporate whiz over a bunnch of no leadership religious nutjobs having anything to do with government

[gilboman]

the thing is your title is misleading since there is no proof. only supposed tapes of conservatives MP's offering themselves up for sale that the liberals never bought.

[rilhouse]

i see this as a conserv scam, they are trying to set the liberals up. i bet they are the ones who approached the liberals, the fact that it was recorded screams setup.

[sumfunny]

i see this as a conserv scam, they are trying to set the liberals up. i bet they are the ones who approached the liberals, the fact that it was recorded screams setup.

Conservatives would not use fraud, it would be too desperate and damaging.

Anyways, the liberal's have been noted of this type of proposals in recent months, ' stonarch' so the conservative taped it, big deal.

[NG]

and that the the Cons have released incomplete information to manipulate the population.

Just saw it on the Newsworld hourly update but will post a news url when one shows up.

[ichpen]

Puts both parties in a bad light. There is 'clearly' an implicit offer there from the Libs. Rewards are mentioned as is the Senate. Obviously they would never implicate themselves by clearly worded bribery.

It also puts Grewal in a bad light as he did not object (in fact pursues the not explicitly mentioned possibility of a 'deal').

Nothing new to see or hear. I would recommend you read-up on the transcripts.

[gilboman]

Conservatives would not use fraud, it would be too desperate and damaging.

Anyways, the liberal's have been noted of this type of proposals in recent months, ' stonarch' so the conservative taped it, big deal.

conservatives are very desperate..hence their outright lies about canadians wanting an election despite constant polls that show nearly 70% didnt want one. and their desperation is getting deeper as the public is exposed to the fractures within the party and how the leader harper shuns all moderates and shuts them out of party policies.

the conservatives know they are going down and sinking fast, they are just trying their last attempts to mess things up. but i dont understand why they bring up bringing down the government when polls show their support is tanking especially in vote rich ontario

the conservatives are a go nowhere party with nutjobs in charge and have no hope.

[sumfunny]

There is an election in the fall or sooner, why would they put themselves in such bad light.

The liberals have made more then one of these offers we all know it, although I don't really know why everyone is all that upset.

[Prometheus]

The Liberals' Lust to Stay in Power is Undeniably Strong...

[Ferman]

Yesterday on the National on CBC, they had a report on a recent poll on Canadian's level of confidence of politicians being their lowest in over 10 years.

This just adds to the public's already very low opinion of politicians.

[rilhouse]

looks like those "moral" conserv's are worse then the liebrals. how will they lie
there way out of this one?

Grewal tapes altered: audio expert

http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=6217a514-ed81-4a98-97c4-e5747d83c340

[Nibr]

MP3 files of the audio tapes: http://www.gurmantgrewal.ca/audio.asp

There are some weird noises throughout the audio, could be a sign of alterations?

EDIT: Transcripts for each file also posted.

[Ferman]

MP3 files of the audio tapes: http://www.gurmantgrewal.ca/audio.asp

There are some weird noises throughout the audio, could be a sign of alterations?

EDIT: Transcripts for each file also posted.

I could be that he hit the pause button. Still, the health minister did say some incriminating things..

[guest10586]

Grewal is a slime bucket. Fact of the matter is that he was pushing to get something and while they suggested that previous people who have crossed get something they still didn't promise him anything. He initiated contact as well, so yeah a ploy but the Alliance to further their truth of a corrupt governement.

[Ferman]

Only in Canada can 2 federally elected government officials talk to each other in a language other than the 2 official languages.

[Nibr]

I could be that he hit the pause button.

It happened quite often though and when there was a conversation going on as well..

Only in Canada can 2 federally elected government officials talk to each other in a language other than the 2 official languages.

That's something I found quite interesting. You would think that since they are talking about official business, they would be using one of the official languages. Not that I have anything against the language they speak (it's my first language ;) )

[ephemera]

I'm only interested if there are some secredt Belinda 'Tapes' showing up! :twisted:

[konfusion666]

looks like those "moral" conserv's are worse then the liebrals. how will they lie
there way out of this one?

Grewal tapes altered: audio expert

http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=6217a514-ed81-4a98-97c4-e5747d83c340


hmm, interesting excerpt:


Pausak has been involved in political intrigue in the past.

In 1977, a listening device was found in the Parliament Hill office of then-Tory MP Elmer MacKay -- whose son, Peter, was leading the defence of the tapes' integrity Thursday.

Pausak, then with the Ontario government's Centre of Forensic Sciences, was asked by police to examine the bug found near the elder MacKay's chair.

"It was a small transmitter designed for surreptitious recordings, but it wasn't functional," Pausak recalled.

Ironically, a detective who had been hired by the Conservatives was later convicted of planting the device.


who is "Pausak"?

Pausak, a physicist, MIT-trained forensic scientist and former Ontario government expert, provides analysis for court trials through his Oakville-based company, Forensic Science Services Inc.

[NG]

MP3 files of the audio tapes: http://www.gurmantgrewal.ca/audio.asp

There are some weird noises throughout the audio, could be a sign of alterations?

EDIT: Transcripts for each file also posted.

Experts say tapes were altered! (http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/06/02/dosanjh-tapes050602.html)

I didn't know Harper's Alliance Cons were *this* sleezy. Anyone in the Cons who knew about this or took part in this should be arrested by the RCMP.

[rilhouse]

Grewal is a slime bucket. Fact of the matter is that he was pushing to get something and while they suggested that previous people who have crossed get something they still didn't promise him anything. He initiated contact as well, so yeah a ploy but the Alliance to further their truth of a corrupt governement.

exactly, any people will see this for what it is - a sleezy con ploy.

Con Plan:

1. initate contact with liberals re: crossing the floor
2. record all conversations
3. edit conversations
4. release edited tapes to the public
5. get elected as the next corrupt government
6. Profit!!!!!!!!!

[Montague]

Grewal is a slime bucket. Fact of the matter is that he was pushing to get something and while they suggested that previous people who have crossed get something they still didn't promise him anything. He initiated contact as well, so yeah a ploy but the Alliance to further their truth of a corrupt governement.
Well you know Grewal is being investigated for other possible shenanigans.

He is so dang slimy/sleazy one wonders why he did not originally run as Liberal! :razz:

[d_jedi]

I think we'll have to wait for the RCMP investigation to see if the tapes were altered, and if so.. what was omitted. Nonetheless - even if Grewal is a sleazy, corrupt person - it can't be denied that the Liberals did just about everything but make him an outright promise (wink wink, nudge nudge.. ) and they come out of this looking bad, regardless.

And the similarities between this and Belinda Stronach's defection are just too great to ignore..

[gilboman]

Well you know Grewal is being investigated for other possible shenanigans.

He is so dang slimy/sleazy one wonders why he did not originally run as Liberal! :razz:


b/c liberals require you to not be a nutjob still and not try to oppress people's rights or dramatically cut back social spending.

liberals require tolerance of minority groups. conservatives require oppresion of minorities

[gilboman]

I think we'll have to wait for the RCMP investigation to see if the tapes were altered, and if so.. what was omitted. Nonetheless - even if Grewal is a sleazy, corrupt person - it can't be denied that the Liberals did just about everything but make him an outright promise (wink wink, nudge nudge.. ) and they come out of this looking bad, regardless.

And the similarities between this and Belinda Stronach's defection are just too great to ignore..

lets see..conservatives set up a ploy to try to get liberals to talk with them and then they alter the tapes...CLAIM they have been unaltered but are busted :lol:

the conservatives are the one looking the worse, even much more desperate than the liberals that they will try to frame the liberals when they did all the talking and editing on the supposed tapes of conversation.

[d_jedi]

lets see..conservatives set up a ploy to try to get liberals to talk with them and then they alter the tapes...CLAIM they have been unaltered but are busted :lol:

the conservatives are the one looking the worse, even much more desperate than the liberals that they will try to frame the liberals when they did all the talking and editing on the supposed tapes of conversation.
Was it the Conservatives? Or Mr. Grewal acting on his own? Nobody but Mr. Grewal has been fingered for any sleazy acts on the Conservative side.. but the corruption within the Liberal party goes all the way up to the Prime Minister.

[NG]

Was it the Conservatives? Or Mr. Grewal acting on his own? Nobody but Mr. Grewal has been fingered for any sleazy acts on the Conservative side.. but the corruption within the Liberal party goes all the way up to the Prime Minister.

On Politics with Don Newman today the Communications Director for the Liberals, Scott Reid, said that he has proof that Grewal has said on record that the Conservative party management knew he was doing . Jeff Norquay, the Con CD, was livid and demands proof which Reid says he can provide.

We'll see...

As for the Liberal corruption at the top - be it good or bad, the majority of the population of Canada simply does not or will not care in the future.

As for the case of the tapes - It's not that big of a deal that the Liberals have been soiled by Martin's actions and that of the PMO. They have nothing to lose and they will get a minority gov't w/Ontario in the next election.

This will hurt the Consrvatives more in Ontario. They have given the Liberals a victory for sure if the claims of tape alteration is proven. All the population will see is them setting the Liberals up, modifying the tapes and passing them off to the population as truth.

Thank you Stephen Harper for ensuring a Libreal/NDP government.

[d_jedi]

On Politics with Don Newman today the Communications Director for the Liberals, Scott Reid, said that he has proof that Grewal has said on record that the Conservative party management knew he was doing . Jeff Norquay, the Con CD, was livid and demands proof which Reid says he can provide.

We'll see...

As for the Liberal corruption at the top - be it good or bad, the majority of the population of Canada simply does not or will not care in the future.

As for the case of the tapes - It's not that big of a deal that the Liberals have been soiled by Martin's actions and that of the PMO. They have nothing to lose and they will get a minority gov't w/Ontario in the next election.

This will hurt the Consrvatives more in Ontario. They have given the Liberals a victory for sure if the claims of tape alteration is proven. All the population will see is them setting the Liberals up, modifying the tapes and passing them off to the population as truth.

Thank you Stephen Harper for ensuring a Libreal/NDP government.
So lies and corruption are OK - according to you - so long as they come from the Liberal party?

I'm sorry, a lie is a lie is a lie.. if Grewal doctored the tapes, he should be removed from the Conservative caucus in the least. If Harper knew of/endorsed doctoring of the tapes, then he should step down.

The fact is, we know with little doubt that the Liberals made an offer-but-let's-not-call-it-one-so-we-can-deny-making-it (that's a lot of hyphens!). If you listen to what Mr. Murphy said on the tapes.. and then what Mr. Martin said in the house of commons.. it seems like they're reading from the same script (or "narrative" to use Mr. Murphy's words)..

[webdoctors]

I believe da proof and aint surprised, so waht? dis stuff doesnt matter, look @ Belinda, she got what she wanted, is their a revolution ? no, its open season on bribery, and these ppl are untouchable....

[NG]

So lies and corruption are OK - according to you - so long as they come from the Liberal party?

I'm sorry, a lie is a lie is a lie.. if Grewal doctored the tapes, he should be removed from the Conservative caucus in the least. If Harper knew of/endorsed doctoring of the tapes, then he should step down.

The fact is, we know with little doubt that the Liberals made an offer-but-let's-not-call-it-one-so-we-can-deny-making-it (that's a lot of hyphens!). If you listen to what Mr. Murphy said on the tapes.. and then what Mr. Martin said in the house of commons.. it seems like they're reading from the same script (or "narrative" to use Mr. Murphy's words)..

No. I am not. What I am saying is that the population has proven that dispite what is said that they have done, true or not, they still are leading the polls for Ontario which will is the Liberal base. Alberta will vote Alliance, Quebec Bloc and the rest of the provs will have a healthy mix of all three parties.

True or not - Ontario will not care regarding the Liberals. They will for the Conservatives. I am not saying this is good. Nor bad. Just how I expect it to go down based on past examples.

[gorf]

and do you belive a bunch of right wing nutjobs is fit to have anything to do with government??

Hey, I've only gotten this far reading but there's alot of left wing and center nutjobs also. Lets be honest about this. From the looks of it lately, they're all a bunch of nutjobs. :lol:

So whats the big deal if Grewal doctored some tapes? Who cares, atleast he didn't rob the country.

[rdtx2002]

So lies and corruption are OK - according to you - so long as they come from the Liberal party?

I'm sorry, a lie is a lie is a lie.. if Grewal doctored the tapes, he should be removed from the Conservative caucus in the least. If Harper knew of/endorsed doctoring of the tapes, then he should step down.

The fact is, we know with little doubt that the Liberals made an offer-but-let's-not-call-it-one-so-we-can-deny-making-it (that's a lot of hyphens!). If you listen to what Mr. Murphy said on the tapes.. and then what Mr. Martin said in the house of commons.. it seems like they're reading from the same script (or "narrative" to use Mr. Murphy's words)..


i find it ironic that you would single out Grewal and not the PC party.. but if it's the Liberals.. they ALL should go down..

yeah.... nice double standard...

[blackhawk]

This certainly puts both parties in the "all politicians are corrupt" category for anyone not yet convinced.

Grewal is a bit questionable but the whole setup sort of falls into the Stronach scenario except that the liberals/Stronach were cunning enough to use Peterson as the 'cutout' for her negotiations. Having direct contact with the PMO's office rep was stupid of the liberals without having the deal done as with Stronach.

Anyone thinking that Belinda crossed over to a 'backbench' and Paul just surprised her with the HR portfolio is too incompetent or partisan to have a vote.
They didn't discuss ethics or values in their meetings I'm sure, it was a business negotiation between two millionaires.

Her vote and loyalty were bought, plain and simple.

"Politicians know the cost of everything and the value of nothing"

This is so third world and the RCMP and Ethics commissioner waiting to be told what to do by the govt just reinforces our national decline.

The liberals own the RCMP and the Ethics Commissioner.

I see that Ed Broadbent is at least demanding that Ethics Commissioner Bernard Shapiro should resign over his last controversy giving Sgro the edited letter that she claimed exonerated her when the full letter released later stated that her staff did put her in position of conflict.
Ministerial responsibility died a decade ago and its now the turn of the "not my fault" politicians.

I wish Ed had the time and enthusiasm to go after the rest of these white collar criminals sitting in parliament.

I'll bet you'll hear more from him after he's out about how disgusted he is with the decline of democracy in our country.

[devious9191]

i find it ironic that you would single out Grewal and not the PC party.. but if it's the Liberals.. they ALL should go down..

yeah.... nice double standard...

The tapes show Martin's chief of staff, and suggest that Martin is behind the whole thing.. Grewal is just a single MP.

[Montague]

The tapes show Martin's chief of staff, and suggest that Martin is behind the whole thing.. Grewal is just a single MP.
1 Problem is tape has been edited

2 You are relying on someone ELSES translation of the edited tape

If it was such a "slam dunk" why wait a couple weeks to hand over the tape?

Meethinks there is more to the story than we currently know.

[ill_mango]

I'm kind of sick of all of this. I need a new party to vote for.

Anyone want to start one with me? We can call it "the people's party of canada"

PPOC 4 life!

[d_jedi]

1 Problem is tape has been edited

2 You are relying on someone ELSES translation of the edited tape

If it was such a "slam dunk" why wait a couple weeks to hand over the tape?

Meethinks there is more to the story than we currently know.
Well, there is the fact that significant portions aren't in English and they'd be virtually useless if not translated..

[devious9191]

1 Problem is tape has been edited

2 You are relying on someone ELSES translation of the edited tape

If it was such a "slam dunk" why wait a couple weeks to hand over the tape?

Meethinks there is more to the story than we currently know.

I was replying to his comment that when talking about the tapes, the blame is either placed entirely on the liberal party, or one individual conservative MP rather than the whole party. The reason for this, is that the tapes implicate the PM, who represents the entire party, while Grewal does not.

[anvah]

This is so third world and the RCMP and Ethics commissioner waiting to be told what to do by the govt just reinforces our national decline.


Hahaha. I love it when people start comparing Canada to third world when anything of this sort happens. My fellow RFDer, please open your eyes and read the news. Corruption is everywhere!! It's in the States, it's in Britain. It's most definitely in Italy, and France. It's in Germany. The only countries I can't think of being affected by big scandals are Norway, Sweden or Finland. I can even think of scandals in Denmark.

Listen, corruption should never be condoned. However, call it what it is. Don't make allegories to third world countries. When you do, you expose your lack of knowledge and end up sounding quite naive.

Anvah

[guest10586]

I was replying to his comment that when talking about the tapes, the blame is either placed entirely on the liberal party, or one individual conservative MP rather than the whole party. The reason for this, is that the tapes implicate the PM, who represents the entire party, while Grewal does not.

Nope, Grewal was under Harper so if he was really performing a sting operation it is Harper's responsibility as well. Just like any Gomery findings will rest with all the Liberals even though not all are corrupt.

[devious9191]

Nope, Grewal was under Harper so if he was really performing a sting operation it is Harper's responsibility as well. Just like any Gomery findings will rest with all the Liberals even though not all are corrupt.

I'm not saying that it isn't Harpers responsibility, I'm saying that he wasn't necessarily involved, whereas Martin was directly involved.

[blackhawk]

[QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhawk

This is so third world and the RCMP and Ethics commissioner waiting to be told what to do by the govt just reinforces our national decline.




Hahaha. I love it when people start comparing Canada to third world when anything of this sort happens. My fellow RFDer, please open your eyes and read the news. Corruption is everywhere!! It's in the States, it's in Britain. It's most definitely in Italy, and France. It's in Germany. The only countries I can't think of being affected by big scandals are Norway, Sweden or Finland. I can even think of scandals in Denmark.

Listen, corruption should never be condoned. However, call it what it is. Don't make allegories to third world countries. When you do, you expose your lack of knowledge and end up sounding quite naive.

AnvahQUOTE]


The level of corruption tolerance is whats changing plus the willingness of the federal gov't to condone "white collar" crime by politicians for their own personal gain.

I've been to all of those countries you've mentioned in my 'naive' life and when Chretien named Gagliano to be ambassador to Denmark, the danish papers weren't too impressed either by his shady past or the fact that Chretien named him ambassador before allowing the danish govt to accept his credentials as is the protocol, more "small town politics" by Chretien that irritated the international community.

I've been to Mexico and paid 'fees' in cash for govt services, much like paying extra money to the passport office to receive your passport sooner than the average 'joe' here to get his. Wasn't like that here 20 years ago.

There's a huge difference between individual corruption and systemic corruption or a system that tolerates or allows it and places the burden on the individuals 'moral compass' to know right from wrong.

The federal govt has withdrawn more over the last 20 years from responsibilities in transportation and defence(two areas I am and have been directly involved in) by the use of contractors as go betweens and guidelines to replace responsibilities with a consequent decline in standards and the range of acceptable practice across the country.

The RCMP have been politicized and dont stand alone and above the politics.
Look at the airbus inquiry, and the latest direction from the PMO's office to call a certain RCMP official at home for information.


And now, the Ethics Commissioner will be 'investigating' the tapes! Could anyone see this coming? Shapiro is a joke and blatantly a liberal appointee with a mandate to do as he's told from the PMO. Even the NDP want him out or the position changed and taken out of the PMO's office.

I can see the NDP squirming more and more about their deal and the cost in their integrity to prop up this corrupt tired old regime.

"A politician knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing"

[anvah]

The level of corruption tolerance is whats changing plus the willingness of the federal gov't to condone "white collar" crime by politicians for their own personal gain.

I've been to all of those countries you've mentioned in my 'naive' life and when Chretien named Gagliano to be ambassador to Denmark, the danish papers weren't too impressed either by his shady past or the fact that Chretien named him ambassador before allowing the danish govt to accept his credentials as is the protocol, more "small town politics" by Chretien that irritated the international community.

"A politician knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing"

Hey...First things first. I was not calling you naive. Rather, just saying that referring to Canada as a 'third-world' country is naive just because of small 'systemic' corruption as you call it. A couple of points - Canada is one of the least corrupt countries in the world. Going to Mexico and paying 20 for a passport is nothing. I'm sure you know that you can go to Mexico, pay some amount to the police there and have them look aside when you do your business. That is 'systemic' corruption.

Calling the passport office 'corruption' is silly. It's akin to mailing something priority and saying it shouldn't cost more. See, this is the problem I have with your statements. You, by labelling almost everything corruption, really take the bite out of that term. Corruption has a specific definition and we should really use it to define acts that meet that definition.

Replacing government services with 'contractors' is not a sign of corruption. Many companies do it all the time. IBM is renowed for doing it in their work. The decline in 'standards' is not a result of contractors, but weak government enforcement. That is not corruption, but government incompetence.

However, I agree with your other points. Politicians are willing to look away when instead they should replace and fire said cabinet ministers. The PMO's office has way too much control. Our parlimentary system needs a major shake down. I'm hoping the NDP will work with the liberals and get us some form of proportional representation. Hopefully the Senata will fulfill it's role.

Our system isn't perfect. But someone as well travelled as you should know that there are much much much worse countries than Canada. Canada is really pretty good. We should strive for better, but let us not lose sight of what we have.

Anvah