Public Healthcare creates jobs in Canada

[NG]

The U.S. automakers are moving more production to Canada where a national health care program provides coverage for workers and their families for less than one-fifth of the cost of health benefits on the U.S. side of the border.

Benefit costs account for 28.8 percent of compensation costs for private sector production workers in the U.S., compared with 17.0 percent in Japan, 16.6 percent in Canada and 17.6 percent in the United Kingdom. Three-fourths of the difference in benefit costs stems from the private health insurance system in the U.S.
http://www.laborresearch.org/story2.php/380

The United States has lost nearly 3 million manufacturing jobs since July 2001, with 43 consecutive months of manufacturing-employment decline, from about 17.3 million jobs to about 14.3 million in February 2004. During the same period, the manufacturing workforce in Canada has generally remained stable, at about 2 million jobs, even though the unemployment rate is higher there, at 7.4 percent, than in the United States, where it is 5.6 percent.

And, although both nations lost auto manufacturing jobs in 2000 and 2003, the decline was only 4 percent in Canada, compared with 14 percent in the United States.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A34899-2004Mar5?language=printer

In contrast, the single payer system that Canada has used for the last 25 years has drastically simplified their administration costs. For instance, it takes more people to administer Blue Cross Blue Shield of Massachusetts that it does to administer the entire health care system of Canada. Before Canada implemented their national health program, their health costs were the same portion of their economy as in the U.S. After they implemented their program, their costs stabilized at 9% while U.S. costs have increased to 14%. They spend one tenth of what U.S. health care providers spend on overhead.

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According the Harris Poll of all industrial nations, Canadians are the most satisfied with their health care.

http://bcn.boulder.co.us/health/healthwatch/canada.html


“Nothing is more important to us. Nothing." Those were the words from General Motors chief finance executive John Devine to a packed crowd of auto industry insiders in a forum at Traverse City. The topic of question: healthcare. More to the point, the ever rising costs of healthcare and the possibility of it impeding on domestic carmakers and their ability to compete.

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Some in the industry are beginning to contemplate the idea of a nationalized system of healthcare. The Detroit Free Press reports that Larry Denton, CEO of auto supplier Dura Automotive Systems, Inc. thinks the time may have come for the government to step in. “I spent a lot of time in Canada, and I used to think their health-care plan was a bad idea. Now after being back here I'm not so sure. We're about the only modernized country not doing it and the companies here pay a 30-percent penalty because the rules are different.�

http://www.automotivearticles.com/Rising_Cost_of_Healthcare_Pressures_Automakers_.sh tml

And apprently Toyota feels the same way...

[devious9191]

What's your point exactly?

Large american auto makers provide their employers with health benefits. In Canada, they wouldn't have to provide them with the same benefits, as it comes with living in the province.

You should ask the employees their opinion on the situation. Since, they received far better service in the US under the employer sponsored plan than they will under OHIP, and now, not only is the employer not picking up the tab as they were before, they are paying for their own health care in the form of taxation.

[NG]

What's your point exactly?

You should ask the employees their opinion on the situation. Since, they received far better service in the US under the employer sponsored plan


According the Harris Poll of all industrial nations, Canadians are the most satisfied with their health care.

http://bcn.boulder.co.us/health/healthwatch/canada.html


.

[devious9191]

I don't doubt that. Canadians are lazy and apathetic. We're also probably the most satisfied with our government, even though they steal out of our pockets. We have a horrible healthcare system, that has been steadily getting worse over the past decade.

However it's a good political healthcare system. People tend to complain a lot more when they have to sign the VISA bill for their own healthcare, rather than just paying an extra few thousand dollars a year through payroll.

[d_jedi]

According the Harris Poll of all industrial nations, Canadians are the most satisfied with their health care.
Apples to oranges. That survey (probably - it's not cited anywhere in the article you link) compares all Canadians to all Americans - even those Americans that have little/no health coverage.

On average, I think we have better health care.. but if you've got a good health plan in the US, you receive much better service than in Canada.

[elty]

I don't doubt that. Canadians are lazy and apathetic. We're also probably the most satisfied with our government, even though they steal out of our pockets. We have a horrible healthcare system, that has been steadily getting worse over the past decade.

However it's a good political healthcare system. People tend to complain a lot more when they have to sign the VISA bill for their own healthcare, rather than just paying an extra few thousand dollars a year through payroll.

Wow, so being satisfied with a government actually = lazy and pathetic.

[devious9191]

Wow, so being satisfied with a government actually = lazy and pathetic.

Being satisfied with a government that is financially irresponsible, whose members are not only mismanaging tax dollars, but are now actually stealing them = lazy and apathetic. Particularly since we keep voting in the same group of crooks and demand no responsibility from them.

[elty]

Being satisfied with a government that is financially irresponsible, whose members are not only mismanaging tax dollars, but are now actually stealing them = lazy and apathetic. Particularly since we keep voting in the same group of crooks and demand no responsibility from them.

Maybe we keep voting in same group of crooks because the others are even worse?

[devious9191]

Maybe we keep voting in same group of crooks because the others are even worse?

How do you know?

[d_jedi]

Maybe we keep voting in same group of crooks because the others are even worse?
Or, at least, that's what the Liberal propoganda will lead you to believe.

[Ojam]

Or maybe we are just smart enough to know that when you have a few bad apples in a perfectly good apple tree you don't cut down the whole tree, you simply cut the bad ones off. The whole tree isn't bad, so why destroy it when all you need to do is trim it?

[NG]

Apples to oranges. That survey (probably - it's not cited anywhere in the article you link) compares all Canadians to all Americans - even those Americans that have little/no health coverage.

On average, I think we have better health care.. but if you've got a good health plan in the US, you receive much better service than in Canada.

The Harris Poll compares citizens of "all industrial nations."

It is not linked. You are correct. I am currently looking to directly source it. I imagine I'll find it in the archives here: http://www.harrisinteractive.com/news/
but will check out the academic databases next time I'm on campus to confirm.

I tend to take the site at their face value tho. Research polls are not often quoted out of thin air. Polling comanies exist based on their reputation and their word and can imagine they'd be very on the ball to protect the name they've earned.

[NG]

Maybe we keep voting in same group of crooks because the others are even worse?

Word. (Atleast of the two political parties most likely to form government.)

[devious9191]

Or maybe we are just smart enough to know that when you have a few bad apples in a perfectly good apple tree you don't cut down the whole tree, you simply cut the bad ones off. The whole tree isn't bad, so why destroy it when all you need to do is trim it?

It's like a 20 year old Chevette. You can give it a complete overhaul to get it on the road, or you can just buy a new car.

The Liberals don't know how to manage finances. Every single report that the Auditor General has done, has shown major issues in each government department. HRDC anyone?

As far as social issues go, I really don't have any qualms, but the way those guys waste money is ridiculous.

So how can you justify the fact that our military and healtchare is in worse shape now than it was in the early 90's, despite coming out of a recession and the GST?

[NG]

Or maybe we are just smart enough to know that when you have a few bad apples in a perfectly good apple tree you don't cut down the whole tree, you simply cut the bad ones off. The whole tree isn't bad, so why destroy it when all you need to do is trim it?

Excellent point. There is a strong opinion out there that I've noticed that it's actually not a single payer system that is at fault but a medical body (OMA for example) that stifles new talent coming through the pipeline.

I don't have time to expand on what I'm getting at right now but will later in the thread.

[gh05t]

I am sure all the nurses who lost their jobs under the Mike Harris Regime in Ontario and ended up moving south to places like Texas will find the topic of this thread quite ironic.

[NG]

I am sure all the nurses who lost their jobs under the Mike Harris Regime in Ontario and ended up moving south to places like Texas will find the topic of this thread quite ironic.

LOL. Agreed. And double agreed on referring to it as the "Harris Regime".

[devious9191]

I am sure all the nurses who lost their jobs under the Mike Harris Regime in Ontario and ended up moving south to places like Texas will find the topic of this thread quite ironic.

I would think that since they are paid a fair wage in the US (almost double what they make in Canada), that there wouldn't be too many objections.

[devious9191]

LOL. Agreed. And double agreed on referring to it as the "Harris Regime".

Another few years of Mike Harris to cut away the bs in Ontario would have been just what the doctor ordered (forgive the pun). ;) The government in Ontario is bloated and almost as fiscally irresponsible as the feds.

[webdoctors]

the US really does require national healthcare, I figure its something they will implement within the next 10 yrs, I believe they are the only industrialized country that doesnt have one. Japan, Canada, UK, France, Taiwan, not sure about Singapore, but really, US needs to just get it done.

[stevethewheel]

You should ask the employees their opinion on the situation. Since, they received far better service in the US under the employer sponsored plan than they will under OHIP, and now, not only is the employer not picking up the tab as they were before, they are paying for their own health care in the form of taxation.

I think your opinion of the US health care services is out of date. With the rising costs the insurance companies who provide the plan are making it a bureaucratic nightmare for the user. They are trying to cut costs everywhere they can and if you have 2 people working in the same family it is crazy trying to get your coverage straight. Plus you can only use services from the approved list (which means you might not get a doctor in your hometown if you don't live in the same town you work in).

Sure the 'cost' might be better for the US worker, but actually using the plans is another story.

[d_jedi]

Another few years of Mike Harris to cut away the bs in Ontario would have been just what the doctor ordered (forgive the pun). ;) The government in Ontario is bloated and almost as fiscally irresponsible as the feds.
Another few years of Mike Harris and..
uuhhh..
/me shudders at the thought.

[webdoctors]

follow up to the OP's article posted today:

You knew it was gonna happen sooner or later, and without a national health care system, no way US can compete, when they can save the annual amount by JUST moving their factories several hundred miles North....(to Canada)

From the article they would save probably about $5 bill USD/yr, dat aint chump change....


General Motors slashes jobs, calls for talks with union
BELT-TIGHTENING: The struggling US automaker made the biggest cuts to its workforce since 1991, and said its health care costs have to come down

AFP , WASHINGTON
Monday, Jun 13, 2005,Page 12

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Labor unions are facing tough times after world number one automaker General Motors announced it is to cut 25,000 jobs and called on the unions to negotiate on some top priority issues or put the group's very survival at risk.

Chairman and chief executive Rick Wagoner, who made the announcement Tuesday at GM's annual shareholder meeting, said the overhaul will mean the closure of assembly and component plants in an effort to reach annual savings of about US$2.5 billion.

The staff cuts will be the largest since GM took 74,000 workers off its payroll in 1991.

And Wagoner urged the union to negotiate, particularly on health insurance.

Wagoner said the move is aimed at reversing the "poor performance" for the North American division of the auto group which lost US$1.3 billion in the first quarter of this year.

One focus will also be on surging US health care costs, which have been a highly publicized drag on GM's earnings.

"Our 1,500-dollar-per-unit health care expense represents a significant disadvantage versus our foreign-based competitors," Wagoner said.

The chief executive said GM would continue talks with the United Auto Workers in an effort to "reduce our health care cost disadvantage" against other global automakers.

This year, GM envisages US$5.6 billion in health care costs versus US$5.2 billion last year. Meanwhile, the company had US$1.1 billion in first quarter losses.

The automaker now needs to get a grip on its problems, and more precisely to persuade unions to accept cuts in the generous insurance provisions for salaried workers.

At General Motors, a union member employee will pay seven percent of his own medical costs, compared with 27 percent for non-union workers.

"Let me just emphasize that our very strongly preferred approach is to do this in cooperation with the UAW [the International Union, United Automobile, Aerospace and Agricultural Implement Workers of America], because we're convinced that is the best way for our employees, our stockholders, all our constituents," said Wagoner.

"I don't see any easy solution to the health care issue right now," said Efraim Levy of Standard and Poor's.

UAW vice president Richard Shoemaker said job cuts weren't the solution.

"The UAW is not convinced that GM can simply shrink its way out of its current problems. What's needed is an intense focus on rebuilding GM's US market share," he said.

"We will do all that is possible to protect the interests of our members and their families," added Shoemaker.