Ismaili Muslim Thread

[Jabb]

I just thought we could give it another try, but with a few new guidelines to follow. Firstly, I just wanna start out by saying that there will be no tolerance of bashing other sects of Islam, let alone religions; try not to post something that will start a flame war, think before you post. This thread isn't here to prove or disprove any sects of Islam, or any religon (this means you khojo). This is just a thread for the local Ismaili RFDers to talk with each other, discuss Jamati events coming up and the upcomming didar. Secondly, if any (non-)Ismailis have questions about Islam or specifically the Ismaili sect, feel free to ask and I'm sure everyone will do their best to answer, but plz don't let it escalate to a level that will force me to request the closure of this thread.Here's something for those people who want to learn more about the Ismaili faith: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismaili or if you just wanna learn about Islam in general: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam . Anyways, now on to the topic at hand.

How are you guys feeling about the Didar? Im so happy cuz last time he came here, I was like 3 years old so I didn't really get what was going on. Our khane is signed up for the afternoon didar (Headquarters khane in Toronto). I might be volunteering during the morning didar.

[sumfunny]

Do you guys have a "pope", or similar living human, that is head of the faith?

[Jabb]

yeah we do. we call him the Imam and He's a direct descendant (blood relative) of Prophet Mohammed. He's known mosty as the Aga Khan to non Ismailis. He has a foundation that helps out in third world countries (www.akdn.org). The Aga Khan, however, is only the leader for the Ismailis, and not for all Muslims - that is one of the main differences between Ismailism and other sects of Islam.

[trashmouth12]

I was 2 in '92...barely remember anything. This time around AND in three yrs Golden Jubilee is gunna be wicked!

Alot of my US family is commin to Toronto so this is gonna be pretty fun. Too bad it is around exam time otherwise I would have stayed in Toronto longer.

[Jabb]

He's coming here (Toronto) in 2008 again for the opening of the high profile JamatKhane on Wynford drive. There's also going to be a museum beside it for everyone (including non Ismailis) to go to.

[sumfunny]

What's in Mecca/Medina, does your sect go visit? Do others? are there fights or is it just normal? Can non muslims go ?

[Jabb]

What's in Mecca/Medina, does your sect go visit? Do others? are there fights or is it just normal? Can non muslims go ?
I believe what you are referring to is Hajj (pilgramage [sp?]). All Muslims do it, its one of the pilars of Islam. There are no fights and I'm not sure if non Muslims can go.

[asim99]

non muslims are not allowed to enter makkah...i am not too sure about madinah

What's in Mecca/Medina, does your sect go visit? Do others? are there fights or is it just normal? Can non muslims go ?

[insanity]

I heard that both Makkah and Madinah are off limits to non-Muslims.

[khojo]

JABB:

No worries, no one is here to fight :)

But naturally when someone makes an uneducated response and that response has to do with something that has been with you for life, you are obviously going to be offended. Anyway, no arguments here on forward. I would suggest perhaps keeping someone like "Electrolux" out of this thread... and "Batman"... at least the rest of us are able to ask questions and relate in one form or another.

And yes Asim, you are right. Non-Muslims are not allowed to enter Mecca, the guidelines are quite strict... But what if someone decided to sneak in? How would that work?

[asim99]

And yes Asim, you are right. Non-Muslims are not allowed to enter Mecca, the guidelines are quite strict... But what if someone decided to sneak in? How would that work?

i've never been, so i am not sure...however i assume there are only a limited number of entrance point, all staffed with guards to check id's

according to saudi gov website:
http://www.mofa.gov.sa/Detail.asp?InSectionID=51&InNewsItemID=1756
Makkah and Madinah hold special religious significance and only persons of the Islamic faith are allowed entry.

[yatko]

Do you guys have a "pope", or similar living human, that is head of the faith?


That person who might have been equal to pope in (sunni) Islam might be the Khalifeh but I don't think since 1920s there is one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliph

[asim99]

there do exist pro-khilafat movements that would like to see khilafat reborn, however as far as i know there is not much public support for that

edit: i suppose the ahmadis have a khalifa, if i am not wrong

That person who might have been equal to pope in (sunni) Islam might be the Khalifeh but I don't think since 1920s there is one.

[Rehan]

That person who might have been equal to pope in (sunni) Islam might be the Khalifeh but I don't think since 1920s there is one.Caliphs were political leaders, not spiritual leaders.

[asim99]

there has traditionally been some spiritual aura attached to that post...if i am not mistaken

Caliphs were political leaders, not spiritual leaders.

[Jokez Guy]

I am an ahamdi muslim an we were found by the promised messiah Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. And Basically when he passed away we had khilifats, and when ever one passes away, we get a new one, And you probally think Oh yeye we just pick who we want the Khilifat to be its actually not that simple. btw ye we have khilifiats just wanted to tell you, and btw our khilifiat is coming to Toronto and we are having a convention alot of people come, some people that came in the previous years, Dalton Mcguinty, Paul Martin, Hazel Mccail, That police chief i forgot his name, RCMP people also come, and alot of others if you are interested in comming to the convention just pm me and i will give you more information. Sorry not trying to adveritise :S just trying to tell about ahmadi muslims :D

[Rehan]

I think Jabb would like to keep this thread focused on Ismailis. ;)

[Jokez Guy]

I think Jabb would like to keep this thread focused on Ismailis. ;)

ahhaahha alright, i think dere is just too many different type of muslims, i think should just make it a Muslim thread LOL so people get a point of view of everything. learn some new stuff etc. :D

[ill_mango]

Morning Didar for hamilton JK

I was I think 8 when he came last...long time ago, but I do remember some stuff

Like during Awal Sufro, right off the bat some guy fromthe back yells "HAZAR!!!" (one thousand) My friends and I definately laughed at that part

[Jabb]

Like during Awal Sufro, right off the bat some guy fromthe back yells "HAZAR!!!" (one thousand) My friends and I definately laughed at that part

haha I actually laughed out loud when I read that cuz I can just imagine it happening

[khojo]

Jokez Guy:

So basically how is the new Khalifat selected now? What position does your Khalifat hold amongst your community? Does he have or claim to have any sprituality within him? Sorry for so many questions, but I'm just curious.

Thanks! :)

[Jokez Guy]

Jokez Guy:

So basically how is the new Khalifat selected now? What position does your Khalifat hold amongst your community? Does he have or claim to have any sprituality within him? Sorry for so many questions, but I'm just curious.

Thanks! :)

You will find all your information here :)

http://alislam.org/khilafat/index.html

[khojo]

Here is an interview I found of the Aga Khan when asked a question about the Pope:

Paris Match: Your Highness, 49th Imam, descendant of Prophet Mohammed, you are the spiritual leader of the Ismailis, a Shia movement of 15 million Muslims. Could we say that you are their pope?

His Highness the Aga Khan: My role as Imam has nothing in common with that of John Paul II, because the pope is elected by a college of cardinals, while the office of the Imam of the Ismailis is a hereditary one. In Islam, contrary to the Catholic Church, there is no clergy in the sense of people having an exclusively religious career. In contrast with the Christian tradition, Islam does not separate the temporal from the spiritual. My duty, in following the example of my predecessors, is to guide the Ismailis, not only in the present time, but also in the daily practice of Shia Islam. This requires me to analyze their level of existence in liaison with their geographic location. The Imams have always had the overall responsibility of living within their time and therefore, before anything else, adapting.

The office of the Pope evolved with the institutionalization of Christianity. Papacy was concieved as the highest position within the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. The Popes are like channels of God's grace by virtue of holding the supreme position and functioning in that role. By themselves they do not have any spiritual powers.

I guess better than I could explain it ;)

[Jabb]

that is a good explination. I heard it before, but I ddint know where to look, could you post the source?

[Bortman]

I know pretty much nothing about Islam so I have a few questions.

1. It looks like the "pope" figure is not elected but a decendant of Mohammad. What if none in his lineage wanted to be leader, then what would happen? Would they pick from a group of other leaders and then vote?

2. I am Catholic, basically Christian, but there are many different sects that have minor differences. What sects are there in the Muslim religion and what are the differences?

[Rehan]

What activities do you guys have inside your Jamaat Khanas? Do you have salaat? Friday prayers? lectures? Are non-Ismailis allowed to attend any of the activities?

Also, what are your most important books of Islamic knowledge (top 3, for example)?

[asim99]

you can find some cursory info there
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/intro/islam-sunni.htm

Sunni
- Hanafi: Barelvi / Deobandi
- Hanbali: Wahhabi
- Maliki
- Shafii

Shiia
- Twelver - Ithna-Ashari: Usuli / Akhbari / Shayki
- Sevener - Ismaili: Alawi / Bohra / Druze / Khoja
- Fiver - Zaydi
- Kharijite / Ibadite

Ahmadi
- Qadiani
- Lahorite

Sufi
Salafi

also, Baha'i faith has some sort of links to Islam


2. I am Catholic, basically Christian, but there are many different sects that have minor differences. What sects are there in the Muslim religion and what are the differences?

[asim99]

some info i found

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t47995.html
Jamaat khana is place of gathering for the momineen of the Imam that originated in the indo-subcontinent and by no means is a universal symbol of ismaili practice. At times it was an open community center and at others a closed sanctuary. One of the functions of the jamaat khana is to provide a safe place for congregational prayer meditation (bandagi/ibaadat). Another is to provide a forum for communal discussion and a place for social gatherings as well. Throughout the historical progression of jamaat khana specific events affecting the safety of the momineen would require jamaat khana to close it’s doors to our brothers and sister of the ummah while at other times they were open in a limited sense or completely. At the moment the Jamaat Khana is exclusive to the practice of the Ismaili Tariqah and as to when or whether the doors will be opened to the rest of the ummah in the future is solely the prerogative of the Imam.

There are two pictures of the Imam in jamaat khana on either side of the congregation. This practice began while the Imams lived in Iran and could not regulate the practices of the momineen in the Indo-subcontinent. There was a time when there used to be more pictures within jamat khana on all walls. Although the hanging of pictures of the Imam out of love and devotion is not wrong, the Imam showed displeasure and feared that the momineen might misunderstand their own practices and manner of worship. Slowly the number of pictures have been reduced the two small pictures as I had mentioned above. Some new jamaat khanas made under the guidance of the Imam lack these two pictures as well.

What activities do you guys have inside your Jamaat Khanas? Do you have salaat? Friday prayers? lectures? Are non-Ismailis allowed to attend any of the activities?

Also, what are your most important books of Islamic knowledge (top 3, for example)?

[khojo]

Asim99,

That quote is fairly accurate. Basically right now, all Ismailis, that is all Nizari Ismailis (which are a majority, the others are Druze, Bohras, etc...) go to "Jamatkhana" in all parts of the world. Consider it to be no different than a mosque or church, or any other center for praying.

Rehan,

Within the Jamatkhana we recite the main prayer (Dua) 3 times daily. Once in the morning, once in the evening and then again in the evening/night).

Friday is indeed a special day. Though there are no different prayers, there are some additional ceremonies performed.

Lectures do take place inside the Jamatkhana, but not daily... this happens perhaps once a month or by request of the member's of the Jamat.

When it comes to prayers and attending Jamatkhana for that specific reason, only Ismailis are allowed. This is because the Ismaili sect of Shia Islam is based on a Batini (Esoteric) meaning rather than the Zaheri (Exoteric) meaning. Therefore, to be able to accept and fully understand without dispute, one must be an Ismaili.

As for your question abouts books, without doubt the Quran comes first. However, let me explain.

Not all Ismailis have read or read the Quran... this is because our Imam (currently Karim Aga Khan) interprets it for us through his addressings to the community. Further more Holy Ginans (they are prayers written either by the Imam or disciples of the Imam --> Pirs) also interpret the Quran and go beyond it. They use examples from all religions and all parts of the world to explain it's basics. I cannot say in which order which is more important, because they all follow the Quran. You must realize that in Ismaili Tariqah and Doctrine, the Imam (who is always a direct hereditary descendant of Prophet Muhammed and Ali) is believed to be the rightful interpreter of the Quran. He will always interpret the Quran as per changing times, but will not change the Quran itself.

[khojo]

Rehan,

Also to elaborate on our salaat that we recite 3 times daily (known as "Dua"). It is recited in Arabic and contains in addition to the rest of the prayer, 6 ayats/verses from the Quran.

Also the Kaba is often referred to as "Khana-e-Kaba" I guess depending on the level at which one is speaking and dialect background. And the word "Jamat" simply means community.

[Rehan]

Thanks, khojo.
How often does the Aga Khan address the community? And what if you have a question of clarification on some aspect of the religion...is he the only one you can go to for guidance, or are there other knowlegdeable people also (like the imams other Muslims have at their mosques)?

[khojo]

Rehan,

The Imam currently addresses his community upon his wishes. Recently he was in Africa (March/05) and went to three countries. He will now be coming to Canada within 2 weeks. The way things work is, once he addresses the community say in Toronto, within two weeks, the same will be read out at all Jamatkhanas worldwide, so everyone is aware of what he said.

As for asking questions and clarification, there are people called "Mukhis" which are the head of every Jamatkhana and are knowledgeable when it comes to religious questions. There are also missionaries and evening school teachers that can be asked questions. Missionaries at a certain point were appointed by the Imam himself (This was a tradition that has been here since about 1300 years).

Children ages 5+ are encouraged to go to evening classes during either weekdays or weekends which take place during the time of prayers so they can gain knowledge about Islam and it's sect of Shia Ismailis.

[yatko]

Can one be converted to Ismaili (even within Islam?)Or one has to be a born one?

[Jokez Guy]

Can one be converted to Ismaili (even within Islam?)Or one has to be a born one?

Anyone can be convetered you dont have to be born one

[khojo]

Yes, anyone can convert. For sure...

[Jabb]

I know pretty much nothing about Islam so I have a few questions.

1. It looks like the "pope" figure is not elected but a decendant of Mohammad. What if none in his lineage wanted to be leader, then what would happen? Would they pick from a group of other leaders and then vote?

I'm not sure in that situation, it has never come up.

What activities do you guys have inside your Jamaat Khanas? Do you have salaat? Friday prayers? lectures? Are non-Ismailis allowed to attend any of the activities?

Well for most of the ceremonies non Ismailis can sit through, but the speeches (i guess that could be a word used to describe it) made by our Imam to us cannot be heard by non Ismailis. We say our D'ua and sing ginans (sort of like hyms). If there it is an auspicious occassion, there would be tea cookies juice and another drink served to the Jamat after ceremonies are done. Usually, after ceremones everyone socializes. Jamat Khane is open every morning and evening for prayers, but of course Friday is the sabbath day so its full on Fridays. Saturdays, children in kindergarten - grade 5 attend Bait ul Ilalm (BUI for short, its religious classes) children from grade 6-10 attend senior BUI and grade 11 and 12 kids go to Al-Azhar (which is the same thing as BUI but deeper).

For those of you interested, I believe the Ismaili council for Ontario does have tours of Jamat khanes (so I've heard, havent checked it out yet) but I could get the number, confirm whether or not they do give tours and post the number for you guys to call and arrange a tour.

[khojo]

I know pretty much nothing about Islam so I have a few questions.

1. It looks like the "pope" figure is not elected but a decendant of Mohammad. What if none in his lineage wanted to be leader, then what would happen? Would they pick from a group of other leaders and then vote?


Bortman, your question is quite interesting. This has never happened as yet, but I honestly doubt it ever will. If we look at it from a religious point of view rather than a personal material point of view. In the Holy Quran God says that he chooses the family of Imran and Abraham above everyone else. To clarify Imran is the father of Hazrat Ali (first Imam), also known as Abu-Talib, and the Holy Prophet Muhammed is from the line of Abraham through his son Ishmael. Ali who was the cousin and son-in-law to Muhammed (He married Muhammed's daughter) would fall under both categories. Further to that, Abraham was promised "seed after seed", proving this lineage would never end. Today the 49th Imam, Shah Karim Al-Husaiyni (Also known popularly as Karim Aga Khan) is proof of that "seed after seed" that Abraham was promised. Keep in mind, I am making references from the Holy Quran and am also speaking about a direct blood relative and descendant of the Holy Prophet Muhammed.

Having said that, if we divert our views and analyze this religiously, the lineage should never end.

[khojo]

Also,

The next leader HAS TO be a descendant of the previous Imam, either a son or remote (grandson, etc). They have to be from Ahl-E-Bait, the family of the Prophet and progeny of Hazrat Ali.

[Boss_Scorpius]

Since no one replied to my post on the other thread, here's it again, If some Ismailies could clarify their beliefs on the matter:

"I'm not a master in islamic histroy but didn't Imams have to die for their sons to become their successors? If so, if this is true:

"Jafar's first son, Ismail bin Jafar, died before Jafar. After Jafar's death, there arose a major split between the partisans of the Ithna Ashari Shias ("Twelvers"), who felt that Ismail's brother Musa al Kazim (one of Jafar's younger sons) was the rightful successor to Jafar; and the Ismailis ("Seveners"), who felt that the Ismail was the rightful successor as the seventh Imam. The Ismailis eventually became a separate sect; their supreme spiritual leaders, the Aga Khans, are descendents of Ismail."

Then since Ismail died before Jafar I think logically Musa al Kazim woud be the next successor and so Ismailies aren't exactly right in believing otherwise."

[Rehan]

Having said that, if we divert our views and analyze this religiously, the lineage should never end.What if the imam doesn't have any children?

[Jabb]

Since no one replied to my post on the other thread, here's it again, If some Ismailies could clarify their beliefs on the matter:

"I'm not a master in islamic histroy but didn't Imams have to die for their sons to become their successors? If so, if this is true:

"Jafar's first son, Ismail bin Jafar, died before Jafar. After Jafar's death, there arose a major split between the partisans of the Ithna Ashari Shias ("Twelvers"), who felt that Ismail's brother Musa al Kazim (one of Jafar's younger sons) was the rightful successor to Jafar; and the Ismailis ("Seveners"), who felt that the Ismail was the rightful successor as the seventh Imam. The Ismailis eventually became a separate sect; their supreme spiritual leaders, the Aga Khans, are descendents of Ismail."

Then since Ismail died before Jafar I think logically Musa al Kazim woud be the next successor and so Ismailies aren't exactly right in believing otherwise."

And theres the reason no one answered. plz take a look at my first post in this thread

[Jabb]

What if the imam doesn't have any children?
He always has children.

[khojo]

Boss,

I would have to look this one up for you. But as far as I know Imam Jafar had sent Ismail Bin Jafar away to keep in a safe place. This was because he knew that when the time for the next Imam comes, times will be bad. When this happened and the lineage split into two:

1. Following Musa al-Kazim --> Today known as the Ithna Ashris

2. Following Ismail Bin Jafar --> Today known as the Ismailis

The majority however, had gone towards Musa al-Kazim. If I am not mistaken, the times of the Ithna Ashris Imams following and including Musa al-Kazim were fairly voilent. And to keep away from all of this and the killings, Jafar had ordered Ismail to leave... The rest I cannot get into because it would cause a controversial stir between Ithna Ashris and Ismailis.

[Jabb]

Boss,

I would have to look this one up for you. But as far as I know Imam Jafar had sent Ismail Bin Jafar away to keep in a safe place. This was because he knew that when the time for the next Imam comes, times will be bad. When this happened and the lineage split into two:

1. Following Musa al-Kazim --> Today known as the Ithna Ashris

2. Following Ismail Bin Jafar --> Today known as the Ismailis

The majority however, had gone towards Musa al-Kazim. If I am not mistaken, the times of the Ithna Ashris Imams following and including Musa al-Kazim were fairly voilent. And to keep away from all of this and the killings, Jafar had ordered Ismail to leave... The rest I cannot get into because it would cause a controversial stir between Ithna Ashris and Ismailis.

thanks man, appreciate it

[khojo]

What if the imam doesn't have any children?

Rehan,

Again good question. This is exactly what happened (according to some scholars) with the lineage of the Shia Ithna Ashris...

Non-Ithna Ashris believe that their progeny ended after their last Imam, however Ithna Ashris claim that the progeny never ended and their last Imam went into hiding from birth and will return at the end of time. They refer to him as Al-Mahdi (the hidden).

If we go back to my previous post, without getting into this too deep (wouldn't want to cause a controversy), the progeny for seed after seed has already been promised from the beginning. Lets just stick to deep thought and reflect that perhaps Imammat was never meant to end.

[Boss_Scorpius]

Boss,

I would have to look this one up for you. But as far as I know Imam Jafar had sent Ismail Bin Jafar away to keep in a safe place. This was because he knew that when the time for the next Imam comes, times will be bad. When this happened and the lineage split into two:

1. Following Musa al-Kazim --> Today known as the Ithna Ashris

2. Following Ismail Bin Jafar --> Today known as the Ismailis

The majority however, had gone towards Musa al-Kazim. If I am not mistaken, the times of the Ithna Ashris Imams following and including Musa al-Kazim were fairly voilent. And to keep away from all of this and the killings, Jafar had ordered Ismail to leave... The rest I cannot get into because it would cause a controversial stir between Ithna Ashris and Ismailis.


Well, how about stay away from controversy and let's hear what you guys as Ismailies have been told to justify the belief. Say if someone was to convert , they would be asking you questions about what you believe in, so treat these questions as such:

So if I correctly understood, Ismailies believe that Ismail wasn't actually killed, rather he was in hiding due to violent times?

[khojo]

Boss,

Give me some time, let me gather the correct info and then get back to you. I would rather have the right information than giving you something that I only "think" is right.

You are right, we can discuss this in a good way.

Meanwhile I will try to answer whatever else I can. :)

[Boss_Scorpius]

btw, in case an imam doesn't have son, wouldn't it be possible to pass the immamat to his brother? Just like Imam Hassan and Imam Hussein?

[Boss_Scorpius]

Boss,

Give me some time, let me gather the correct info and then get back to you. I would rather have the right information than giving you something that I only "think" is right.

You are right, we can discuss this in a good way.

Meanwhile I will try to answer whatever else I can. :)

Thanks that would nice. It's always nice when people do research about what they believe in rather than just believing because their parents do.

[khojo]

Boss,

The belief of Hazrat Hassan being Imam is not one that is in common with all Ithna Ashris... He was indeed a Holy figure/person and was apart of the "Holy Five" that was appointed by Prophet Muhammed. This comrpised of:

The Prophet himself
Hazrat Ali
Hazrat Bibi Fatima (Ali's wife and the Prophet's daughter)
Hazrat Hussein (Ali's son and 2nd Imam)
Hazrat Hassan (Ali's other son)

Coming back to your question on Ismail Bin Jafar, here is some information:

http://www.ismaili.net/histoire/history04/history401.html

"...Ismail was declared many times by his father as his successor, and said on an occasion, while Ismail was present, according to "Asraru'n-Nutaqa" (comp. 380/990) that "He is the Imam after me, and what you learn from him is just the same as if you have learnt it from myself."..."

The early biography of Ismail is not traceable except few fragmented records. Our authority "Asraru'n-Nutaqa" adds, "When Ismail completed 7 years of age, the Lord of religion (Jafar Sadik) declared him the master of religion and his heir-apparent, as his next in descent. He guarded him from his other sons, kept him away from the contact with the public, and his education went on under his own supervision."

[Boss_Scorpius]

Thanks. However, the question is not really about whether Imam Jafar declared him as his successor, it was whether he died before Jafar, because if he did then it won't be Ismail's son that would be the next successor , it would rather be the younger son of Jafar. So is it believed that he died, or he was living under hiding?


Also as for all Ithna Ashari's as far as I know believe that Hassan Ibne Ali was the second Imam, maybe there's a very smal minority that I don't know about that believe otherwise.

[khojo]

Boss,

Also, here is an except from the Will of Imam Sultan Muhammed Shah (48th Imam)

"Ever since the time of my ancestor Ali, the first Imam, that is to say over a period of thirteen hundred years, it has always been the tradition of our family that each Imam chooses his successor at his absolute and unfettered discretion from amongst any of his descendants, whether they be sons or remote male issue..."


PS: I'll get back to you on Ismail Bin Jafar... :)

[RaLz]

I can't believe this gay thread is still alive, **** someone close it now!!

[khojo]

RaLz,

Excuse me? What is so "gay" about this thread? It was perfectly straight until you decided to add in the word "gay". Furthermore, why are you using the word "gay" to discriminate?... By saying what you just said, you not only offended this thread and those who take part in it, but you also offended many others on this forum. I personally think you should be banned. :)

PS: If you don't like something, ignore it. Breathe in, breathe out.

[Boss_Scorpius]

Boss,

Also, here is an except from the Will of Imam Sultan Muhammed Shah (48th Imam)

"Ever since the time of my ancestor Ali, the first Imam, that is to say over a period of thirteen hundred years, it has always been the tradition of our family that each Imam chooses his successor at his absolute and unfettered discretion from amongst any of his descendants, whether they be sons or remote male issue..."


PS: I'll get back to you on Ismail Bin Jafar... :)

Thanks, don't mean to be disrespectful but I find that unrelated to what we're discussing.

This site also shows the shiia Imams and sects that believe in them:
http://i-cias.com/e.o/shii.htm

Hassan is believed as the the second Imam amongst all shia sects with no exception it seems.

[khojo]

Thanks, don't mean to be disrespectful but I find that unrelated to what we're discussing.

This site also shows the shiia Imams and sects that believe in them:
http://i-cias.com/e.o/shii.htm

Hassan is believed as the the second Imam amongst all shia sects with no exception it seems.

Absolutely not. The only reason I had pasted a portion of the Will was to make clear the Ismailis doctrine of thought when it comes to choosing Imams.

Perhaps I can breifly explain this to you.

In Ismailism Hazrat Hassan is considered a "Pir" and Hazrat Hussein is considered the "Imam"... Similarily

Hazrat Ali is considered the "Imam" and Prophet Muhammed is considered the "Pir"

The "Pir" is the exoteric (Zaheri) portion of Ismailism and the "Imam" is the esoteric (Batini) portion of Ismailism.

It is said that Prophet Muhammed had appointed Hazrat Hassan himself to be Pir... but Ithna Ashris believe that he was not Pir, instead he was Imam.

If we get into this aspect, it might be a whole new conversation (which is not a problem at all)... Anyway, let me show you this link:

http://www.ismaili.net/histoire/chart7.html

This will give you a geneology and show that Pirs have been there from the beginning of Shia Islam and not only after Ismailism was established as it's own sect. However, because Shia Ithna Ashri was stopped at the 12th Imam, it is hard to go back in time and explain that they "did not" follow this aspect.

[khojo]

Let me also explain the difference between Pir and Imam.

The Pir is the "entrusted Imam"... he is typically the one who makes the appearances and give guidence towards Islam, etc. You can say, Pir is the guide to the Imam. Sort of reflecting how Muhammed delivered the message during Ghadir-e-Kumm about Ali being Imam, etc.

Be certain that Imam and Pir have equal importance and there is no such saying that Imam is more important than Pir and vice versa.

Often times the Imam will choose to have both responsibilities with him. This was the case with Imam Sultan Muhammed Shah (48th Imam) as well as the current 49th Imam (Aga Khan).

The Pir is now selected by the Imam and is always one of his descendants or to say, a descendant of Prophet Muhammed.

[Boss_Scorpius]

Interesting. I find it a bit hard to believe though, that the concept of pir existed from the beginning. Pir in itself is a Persian word and not an arabic one, and the whole concept of Pir and Murids begins with Sufi's.

Now this is very confusing:

The "Pir" is the exoteric (Zaheri) portion of Ismailism and the "Imam" is the esoteric (Batini) portion of Ismailism.

Zaheri means in apperance and outward and Batini means Spritual and inward, so how exactly are certain individual such as Hassan supposed to Pirs while others are Imams. It's just a bit vague, I appreciate more clarification on what constitutes a Pir and what does an Imam. Does it mean that the pir is like a spritual guide for the imam?

[khojo]

You wouldn't be wrong at all to say that. The Pir is the exoteric portion that guides it's murids to the Imam. Today we have the Aga Khan making his appearances and addressing his community, right? That is actually the role of the Pir. But because the Aga Khan has a dual role, he does both. I cannot refer to his addressings, but it is clearly evident in them, if you pay close attention. Let me gather some distinctive information and then post it... this way I can explain it better. I have the complete idea in my head, but it's hard to lay out with the proper references.

But to reiterate, without the Pir there is no Imam and without Imam there is no Pir. Therefore Muhammed was Pir to Imam Ali and Hassan was Pir to Imam Hussein. You can easily confuse the role of Pir with Imam and add that they are both the same notion, hence the possibility of the reasoning behind Hassan being Imam as opposed to Pir :)... but rather than me speaking, let me see if I can post a historical link with information in depth.

[khojo]

Boss,

This might help:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=241

If you read it thoroughly you should be able to gain the information I am speaking about.

PS: I'm still working on the Imam Ismail subject.

[Boss_Scorpius]

Boss,

This might help:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=241

If you read it thoroughly you should be able to gain the information I am speaking about.

PS: I'm still working on the Imam Ismail subject.


Thanks, confusing read, that seems to only prove that even ismailies are a bit confused about who exactly is a pir and who is an imam. :)

Also, do you happen to know that the quote of Aisha about Salman is authentic?

[khojo]

Boss,

We can't actually say "confused" but everyone has their own way of looking at things, especially when you want to refer something current to something 1400 years back. The notions of Pir and Imam are very clear. However, like anything else, not everyone else is ready to accept everything. The concept of esoteric and exoteric however is very simple.

Regarding the quote, unfortunately I am not sure what you are referring to.

Keeping in mind there are 73 sects of Islam... we can generalize and say that overall Muslims are confused about Islam and who to follow ;) and that's why the 73 sects.

Unfortunately no one is right and no one is wrong, except in our own views.

Imam Sultan Muhammed Shah (48th Imam) when asked which sect would go to heaven, he replied all individuals from all sects. Therefore concluding that everyone has the potential for salvation to/of God. I think this should quieten what others (some) think of Ismailis and Ismailism saying it is the only way to God.

[khojo]

Boss,

Here is another thread comparing the roles of the Pope, Imam and Pir:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=922

I've gotta hit the road for a bit and will be back in a couple of hours... will catch up then.

Nice talking to you.

Take care :)

[Ismailite]

Ya Ali Madad,

You are right when you say that "Pir" is a Persian word and did not exist back in the day. This word merely expresses the concept if a more Sufi-oriented framework. The Ismaili Pir/Imam can be compared to a Sufi Pir or Murshid.

However, the Office of the Pir existed in ancient times under a different name.

In the Arabian and Fatimid Period of Ismaili history, the "Pir" was known as the "Imam-i Mustawda" and the "Imam" was known as the "Imam-i Mustaqarr".

The "Pir" and the "Imam" are related like Prophet Muhammad and Imam Ali. A similar relationship was shared by Prophet Moses and the High Priest Aaron. Or the Israelite Prophecy/Davidic Kingship and the High Priesthood. Or the Yin and the Yang in Taoism.

The Prophet said many times that he and Imam Ali were from the same Light. On the level of metaphysical essence, Muhammad (Pir) and Ali (Imam) are one.

The Holy Prophet was responsible for enunciating the exoteric aspect of the Faith and its implementation in and guiding the community on the worldy, social, and religious levels in day to day matters. The Imam Ali was responsible for giving the esoteric interpretation of the Faith and revealing its more mystical or abstract meanings.

Ismailies believe, with the exception of Prophethood of Muhammad, the rest of these functions pertaining to religious authority, guidance, interpretation, and spirituality have been handed down through the Ismaili Imams and Pirs to the present Imam, Aga Khan IV.

In the Last Will of the Aga Khan III (48th Imam), he beqeathed both offices of Imam and Pir to his grandson, the Present Imam, Shah Karim al-Husayni, otherwise known as Aga Khan IV.

[Aleem]

I just thought we could give it another try, but with a few new guidelines to follow. Firstly, I just wanna start out by saying that there will be no tolerance of bashing other sects of Islam, let alone religions; try not to post something that will start a flame war, think before you post. This thread isn't here to prove or disprove any sects of Islam, or any religon (this means you khojo). This is just a thread for the local Ismaili RFDers to talk with each other, discuss Jamati events coming up and the upcomming didar. Secondly, if any (non-)Ismailis have questions about Islam or specifically the Ismaili sect, feel free to ask and I'm sure everyone will do their best to answer, but plz don't let it escalate to a level that will force me to request the closure of this thread.Here's something for those people who want to learn more about the Ismaili faith: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismaili or if you just wanna learn about Islam in general: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam . Anyways, now on to the topic at hand.

How are you guys feeling about the Didar? Im so happy cuz last time he came here, I was like 3 years old so I didn't really get what was going on. Our khane is signed up for the afternoon didar (Headquarters khane in Toronto). I might be volunteering during the morning didar.


i am looking fwd to the 8th... i am in the AM session,

YAM to all you la-loo's posting in this thread :lol:

a.

[Jabb]

Aleem, what khane do you go to? I'm volunteering during the AM session, im gonna be awake the whoel day >_>.