Any Ismaili Muslims on RFD?

[Jabb]

just wonderin

[quarterpounder]

I am

[Hellfire]

Ditto. Lookin foward to the 8th?

[asim99]

there's some aga khan sponsored event coming up, isnt it

edit: found it, http://forums.redflagdeals.com/showthread.php?t=164941&highlight=aga

[Jabb]

yeah theres the partnership walk coming up tommorow, or rather later today (its 3am) and hell yeah, im looking fwd to the 8th. Last time He was here, I was only 3 yrs old (now im 16). just came back from the raas at CNE, so much fun. what Khane do you guys go to? I'm at HQ in Toronto

[StarStrike]

It's gonna be damn hot tomorrow, so it's going to be one tough partnership walk. You'll be burnt to crisp by the time the walk is done lol

EDIT: Nevermind, I just checked the forecast and they said its only going to be 18C tomorrow for you guys. There's also a chance of Thunder showers :eek:

[RaLz]

Im ismaili

[skanji]

Ottawa checkin' in....

...and there are a bunch of rfd members at jk here (silly lurkers!)

[quarterpounder]

Toronto here.

[Marc7]

I am ismaili christian..j/k


what is the difference between ismaili muslim and reular vanilla one?

[flito ray]

just wonderin

not I.

[plymouthhater]

I am not an Ismaili Muslim...but I wanted to ask a question of those of you who are:

We have a fellow at work who is an Ismaili Muslim and he is constantly being berated as being an "infidel" by a Muslim from Guyana who tells everyone who will listen that Ismaili's are not "true Muslims".

So, other than the obvious prejudice of the fellow from Guyana, can you folks enlighten on the differences between mainstream Islam and the Ismaili faith?

[Jabb]

I am ismaili christian..j/k


what is the difference between ismaili muslim and reular vanilla one?

There's quite a difference between us and them. I'm not gonna list the differences right now (getting ready to go to the partnership walk) but, here's
something to start you off.

Like Christianity, Islam breaks down into sects. There are 2 main sects in Islam: Sunni and Shia. SUnnis are the majority here, the most common type of Muslim. Each sect breaks down into various sub-sects. Ismailis are part of the Shia sect. Basically, we are a minority of a minority. Theres approx. 20 million of us.

EDIT: I really really would love to explain the Ismaili faith right now, but I dont hav e time, my ride for hte walk is gonnabe here in 20 minutes and im not ready yet :(

[Rehan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismaili
(I'm not one either)

[hagbard]

No, but I know one. :)

[Jabb]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismaili
(I'm not one either)
I looked that over quickly and its mainly the history of Ismailis, but a damn good one. They do say some differences (ie the Imam)

[asim99]

i learned something from that wiki link....not all ismailis follow aga khan, which i used to think was the case

[HughG]

Rehan always on top of thangs.

Good read.

[CoinSaver]

One more here in the Toronto area.

[Marc7]

I am not an Ismaili Muslim...but I wanted to ask a question of those of you who are:

We have a fellow at work who is an Ismaili Muslim and he is constantly being berated as being an "infidel" by a Muslim from Guyana who tells everyone who will listen that Ismaili's are not "true Muslims".

So, other than the obvious prejudice of the fellow from Guyana, can you folks enlighten on the differences between mainstream Islam and the Ismaili faith?


reading Rehan's link and it's sublinks, I can understand why some muslims would consider at least a subsect of ismailis as "not muslims":


Hashshashin
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
(Redirected from Hashishin)
The Hashshashin (also Hashishin), or Assassins were a religious group (some would say a cult) of Ismaili Muslims from the Nizari sub-sect with a militant basis, thought to be active in the 8th to 14th centuries as a mystic secret society specialising in terrorising the Abbasid elite with fearlessly executed, politically motivated assassinations. Their own name for the sect was al-da'wa al-jad+da ('D/9H) 'D,/J/)) which means the new doctrine and they called themselves fedayeen from the Arabic fid
'+ which means one who is ready to sacrifice their life for a cause — that term has the modern connotation of "freedom fighter". The name Hashshashin was given to them by their Muslim enemies.

Their Muslim contemporaries were extremely suspicious of them; in fact they were described in terms (Batini) which suggested they were only nominally Islamic. This constant religious estrangement would eventually see them go so far as allying with the Occidental Christians against Muslims on a number of occasions. It is even suggested that they attempted to negotiate their own conversion to Christianity with Amalric I of Jerusalem, but were foiled by Templar machinations, perhaps on the basis that this would exempt them from onerous taxes on non-Christians in the Holy Lands, which were profitable for the knightly orders. Plainly, their connection to mainstream Islam was tangential at best.

The group transformed the act of murder into a system and an ideology directed largely against Muslim rulers that scarcely tolerated their extreme unorthodoxy and murderous tactics. They were meticulous in killing the targeted individual, seeking to do so without any additional casualties, although they were careful to cultivate their terrifying reputation by slaying their victims in public, often in mosques. Typically they approached using a disguise; their weapon of choice a dagger, rejecting poison, bows and other weapons that allowed the attacker to escape. However, under no circumstances did they commit suicide, preferring to be killed by their captors.

Contents [showhide]
1 Etymology of the word "assassin"

2 History of the Hashshashin

3 Methodology

4 Modern parallels

5 See also

6 Sources

[edit]
Etymology of the word "assassin"
. Some common accounts of their connection with hashish are that these "assassins" would take hashish before missions in order to calm themselves; others say that it helped to boost their strength, and turned them into madmen in battle. Yet other accounts state it was used in their initiation rites in order to show the neophyte the sensual pleasures awaiting him in the afterlife. The connection between their mysticism and that drug is not something subject to reliable or consistant historical accounts; this is not surprising given their secrecy and infamy.

"Many scholars have argued, and demonstrated convincingly, that the attribution of the epithet 'hashish eaters' or 'hashish takers' is a misnomer derived from enemies of the Isma'ilis and was never used by Moslem chroniclers or sources. It was therefore used in a pejorative sense of 'enemies' or 'disreputable people'. This sense of the term survived into modern times with the common Egyptian usage of the term Hashasheen in the 1930s to mean simply 'noisy or riotous'. It is unlikely that the austere Hasan-i Sabbah indulged personally in drug taking."

"There is no mention of that drug [hashish] in connection with the Persian Assassins - especially in the library of Alamut ('the secret archives')."

- Edward Burman, The Assassins - Holy Killers of Islam

[edit]
History of the Hashshashin
Although apparently known as early as the 8th century, the foundation of the Assassins is usually marked as 1090 when Hasan-i Sabbah established his stronghold in the mountains south of the Caspian Sea at Alamut. A Yemeni emigrant and an Ismaili Shiite, Hasan set the aim of the Assassins to destroy the power of the Abbasid Caliphate by murdering its most powerful members. Hasan ibn Sabbah was also known as "The Old Man of the Mountain", however, this is likely to have been a mistake in translation, since "Old Man" is the literal translation of "Sheikh". Much of the current western lore surrounding the Assassins stems from Marco Polo's supposed visit to Alamut in 1273, which is widely considered mythical (especially as the stronghold had reportedly been destroyed by the Mongols in 1256).

Benjamin of Tudela who traveled one hundred years before Marco Polo mentions the Al-Hashshashin and their leader as "the Old Man." He notes their principal city to be Kadmus.

The group inspired terror out of all proportion to their scant numbers and territory. The members were organized into rigid classes, based upon their initiation into the secrets of the order. The devotees constituted a class that sought martyrdom and followed orders with unquestioned devotion, orders which included assassination. Because of the secretive nature of the order, it has often been invoked in conspiracy theories.

Most of the victims of the Assassins were Sunni Muslims. There were some extremely highly placed victims including Nizam-ul-Mulk. It is known that Saladin, incensed by several almost successful attempts on his life, besieged their chief Syrian stronghold of Masyaf during his reconquest of Outremer in 1176 but quickly lifted the siege after parley, and thereafter attempted to maintain good relations with the sect. The sect's own extant (and doubtless embellished) accounts tell of the Old Man himself stealing into Saladin's tent in the heart of his camp, and leaving a poisoned cake and a note saying "You are in our power" on Saladin's chest as he slept. Another account tells of a letter sent to Saladin's maternal uncle, vowing death to the entire royal line, perhaps no idle threat; whatever the truth of these accounts (and likely it will remain a mystery) he clearly heeded their warning, and desisted. Alone amongst the Islamic heretics Saladin so despised, the batinis would be granted leeway.

Christians were largely untouched by the depredations of the Assassins; it was not until the middle of the 12th century that they had even really heard of them, although Conrad of Montferrat, King of Jerusalem, was a victim. The Assassins may have even been hired by Richard the Lionheart.

The power of the Hashshashin was destroyed by the Mongol warlord Hulagu Khan, but several Ismaili sects share something of a common lineage, such as the sect led by the Aga Khan. During the Mongol assault of Alamut, the library of the sect was destroyed, along with much of their powerbase, and thus much of the sect's own records were lost; most accounts of them stem from the highly reputable Arab historians of the period.

The word "assassin" in the English language has come to denote a murderer, usually with a political motive.

[edit]
Methodology
Although Legends states that Hasan-i Sabbah, original leader of the Nizari Isamailies , used Hashish to grant "visions" of paradise to his followers, it is highly unlikely, given the fact that the use and effects of Hashish were well known during that time period, and frequent subjects of Imams in the Mosques. Marco Polo, who traveled through the area, gave an account similar to this:

Recruits were promised Paradise in return for dying in action. They were drugged, often with materials such as hashish (some suggest opium and wine as well) then spirited away to a garden stocked with attractive and compliant women (houris) and fountains of wine. At this time, they were awakened and it was explained to them that such was their reward for the deed, convincing them that their leader, Hassan-i-Sabah, could open the gates to Paradise.

In the very beginning Hasan was no more likely to used doped and kidnapped individuals, as their fundamentalism prevented them from using any kind of drug or making misbelievers become martyrs, as his operatives, but as Ismaili power grew and several Fortresses and their accompanying villages came under Ismaili rule, Hasan and his followers are believed to have begun recruiting and training assassins from birth.

[edit]
Modern parallels
Some commentators make comparisons between the historical Assassin movement, Mossad and Al Qaeda, noting the similar tactics of terror, political assassination, the promise of reaching paradise, as well as the cult-like mysticism around Osama Bin Laden. Al Qaeda is also a secret society, with its leaders purportedly hiding in mountain hideouts. Martyrdom is also a key aspect of Al Qaeda's tactics. Given the pejorative nature of the term, sympathizers of Al Qaeda would be expected to dispute the similarities. However, assassination and terror are often major components of Arab and Israeli politics.

[Boss_Scorpius]

I'm not a master in islamic histroy but didn't Imams have to die for their sons to become their successors? If so, if this is true:

"Jafar's first son, Ismail bin Jafar, died before Jafar. After Jafar's death, there arose a major split between the partisans of the Ithna Ashari Shias ("Twelvers"), who felt that Ismail's brother Musa al Kazim (one of Jafar's younger sons) was the rightful successor to Jafar; and the Ismailis ("Seveners"), who felt that the Ismail was the rightful successor as the seventh Imam. The Ismailis eventually became a separate sect; their supreme spiritual leaders, the Aga Khans, are descendents of Ismail."

Then I think logically Musa al Kazim woud be the next successor and so Ismailies aren't exactly right in believing otherwise.

[→ElectroLux←]

I wanted to ask a question of those of you who are:

We have a fellow at work who is an Ismaili Muslim and he is constantly being berated as being an "infidel" by a Muslim from Guyana who tells everyone who will listen that Ismaili's are not "true Muslims".

So, other than the obvious prejudice of the fellow from Guyana, can you folks enlighten on the differences between mainstream Islam and the Ismaili faith?


Have you seen an ismaiili muslim fighting for Islam or defending it? No. Case closed, you have your answer right there if they are truly muslims or not.

[P__S__2]

I am.

[wanted]

I am.

seriously?
never knew.

[CSR]

NOt me

[Rehan]

Have you seen an ismaiili muslim fighting for Islam or defending it? No. Case closed, you have your answer right there if they are truly muslims or not.Conservative MP Rahim Jaffer is an Ismaili Muslim, as is Senator Mobina Jaffer. I think they've spoken up for Muslims on at least one occasion.

Anyway, the main reason that some Sunni Muslims consider Ismailis (and usually other Shias, too) to be non-Muslims is the differences in religious practices. For example, there are differences in the way the daily prayers are performed, differences in rules of integration within the local society, etc. (The reason for those differences is because the different groups take their guidance from different sources/people.)


Some of the Muslims' denunciation of others as non-Muslims is pretty extreme... About 30 years ago, Pakistan made an amendment to their constitution (http://alhafeez.org/rashid/constipak.html) to declare Qadianis/Ahmadis as non-Muslims. I remember filling out an application for my Pakistani passport about 10 years ago, and even on that form I had to tick off a checkbox indicating that I agree that Qadianis are non-Muslims. :|

[Jokez Guy]

I am an Ahmadi Muslim i believe in Promised Messiah

[→ElectroLux←]

Islam has to be pure, there's no room for apostates or agent-provocateurs whose only mission is to weaken it from within. Shiites are muslims indeed, probably doing way more service for Islam then what sunnis have done. Shiites are the ones that truly face the United States and it's host of western aggressors in the 1980's.... only until 1990 did sunni muslims wake-up to the fact that the West's mission is to squash Islam altogether, with the excuse of going after "terrorists". Sunnis did not join the shiite call for the redempetion of Islam, in fact they sided with the West against the islamic republic of Iran.

Now that both sunnis and shiites know that the West is NO freind of Islam because it threatens their imperialism, maybe they can at last join forces and resist U.S. aggression in the Middle East. Unfortunately now shiites in Iraq are commiting heresy by participating and joining the fake pro-american puppet government in Iraq.

[wanted]

Which muslim am I lol :lol: :confused:

[Jokez Guy]

Which muslim am I lol :lol: :confused:

You arent muslim ahhaha

[P__S__2]

^lmao,

and yes Wanted- I am muslim.



EDIT- but im a cool muslim :) that has jokes and stuff.

[wanted]

You arent muslim ahhaha


lol :lol:

[Boss_Scorpius]

Islam has to be pure, there's no room for apostates or agent-provocateurs whose only mission is to weaken it from within. Shiites are muslims indeed, probably doing way more service for Islam then what sunnis have done. Shiites are the ones that truly face the United States and it's host of western aggressors in the 1980's.... only until 1990 did sunni muslims wake-up to the fact that the West's mission is to squash Islam altogether, with the excuse of going after "terrorists". Sunnis did not join the shiite call for the redempetion of Islam, in fact they sided with the West against the islamic republic of Iran.

Now that both sunnis and shiites know that the West is NO freind of Islam because it threatens their imperialism, maybe they can at last join forces and resist U.S. aggression in the Middle East. Unfortunately now shiites in Iraq are commiting heresy by participating and joining the fake pro-american puppet government in Iraq.

You may be sad to hear that it was this extremist Shiite governemnt of Iran which has its people turned against Islam altogether.

[Jokez Guy]

^lmao,

and yes Wanted- I am muslim.



EDIT- but im a cool muslim :) that has jokes and stuff.

HUH :confused: :confused: :confused:

[P__S__2]

^wut i meant to say was, im a muslim, but not the kind thats so uptight with everything, you know I dont take everything seriously, im the type that jokes around alot and stuff lol.

[Jokez Guy]

^wut i meant to say was, im a muslim, but not the kind thats so uptight with everything, you know I dont take everything seriously, im the type that jokes around alot and stuff lol.

oh alright so your a muslim, hmmmm

Coool :lol:

[P__S__2]

^lol. Peterbrowne wut is he?

[rb]

Islam has to be pure, there's no room for apostates or agent-provocateurs whose only mission is to weaken it from within. Shiites are muslims indeed, probably doing way more service for Islam then what sunnis have done. Shiites are the ones that truly face the United States and it's host of western aggressors in the 1980's.... only until 1990 did sunni muslims wake-up to the fact that the West's mission is to squash Islam altogether, with the excuse of going after "terrorists". Sunnis did not join the shiite call for the redempetion of Islam, in fact they sided with the West against the islamic republic of Iran.

Now that both sunnis and shiites know that the West is NO freind of Islam because it threatens their imperialism, maybe they can at last join forces and resist U.S. aggression in the Middle East. Unfortunately now shiites in Iraq are commiting heresy by participating and joining the fake pro-american puppet government in Iraq.



The West includes Canada buddy , if you hate it so much and what it stands for why live here????

Iran is a great example of pure Islam isn't it, it murders a defenceless woman and then denies it (the Canadian-Iranian Journalist) ..very nice indeed

[Rehan]

Let's keep the political discussion out of this thread.

[wanted]

^lol. Peterbrowne wut is he?


Christian I guess...
or Athiest/Catholic etc

[trashmouth12]

From ottawa, pretty hyped about the 8th. Last time in 1992 i was 2 so i don't remember much. Next week is gonna be FULL of raas and remember to stretch it helps :cheesygri


Who went to CNE?? Was it fun?...How many ppl were there? (in thousands)

[wanted]

kk, someone clear up a brown muslim.


what's going on??? is it some type of convention?
like the pope or something?
i'm confused...

[Jabb]

The Aga Khan is coming to bless the Ismaili Muslims. I guess you cold make an anology with when the Pope came, but theres only gonna be like 100k people cuz there arent many Ismaili Muslims.

some differences between Ismailies and other Muslims:
-we believe in a present living Imam
-we pray only 3 times a day (they pray 5 times a day)
-our mosques are very different (we call them Jamat Khanes)

[wanted]

Oh, thanks.
Makes sense.

[Jokez Guy]

make sense to me now too, btw our khilafat is comming to canada too, i think june he going to be going to travellign western then be comming back to toronto for the annual convention which is held in mississauga, www.ahmadiyya.ca if u want to learn more.

[wanted]

http://www.artofliving.org/PressRoom/SriSriOfficialPicture.jpg

http://www.artofliving.org/founder.html

similar or somewhat like him?

[Hellfire]

-we pray only 3 times a day (they pray 5 times a day)


Isn't it counted Dua, Thasbi, Dua, Thasbi, Dua = 5

[RaLz]

Nope you just count the dua's

[khojo]

Hello and Ya Ali Madad to everyone on RFD.

Those of you who are arguing about Shia Imami Nizari Ismailis not being true Muslims need to think again.

There are several ways of attacking this issue.

#1 I don't think any of us were alive 1400 years back to ask the Holy Prophet Muhammed (may peace be upon him) which sect of Islam is true.

#2 Every sect of Islam is obviously going to say they are "true Muslims".

However, contrary to not being alive 1400 years back, it is only a matter of putting together portions of history and doing some research.

I am an Ismaili and am extremely proud of who I am. I am a true Muslim, regardless of what people want to say, what people want to think. It doesn't matter.

Someone on this forum mentioned not all Ismailis follow the Aga Khan.

That is both true and not true. Within the Islamic sect of Shiaism there are many subsects. The sect "Ismaili" originates from Imam Ismail (The 6th hereditary descendent of Prophet Muhammed), hence the word "Ismaili"

Within this sect, there have been several other spits that go on to become sub-sects. For example:

During the time of Imam Mustansir’Billah. One group went on to follow Imam Nizar and the other went on to follow Imam Nizar's brother.

The majority went with Imam Nizar and that is why today "Ismailis" are mainly those who have come down from the unbroken line of Hazrat Ali -> Hazrat Nizar and now to Karim Aga Khan (The current and 49th Imam and hereditary descendant of Prophet Muhammed).

So coming to the nitty gritty, the question of being a true Muslim, lets take a look here.

There are 1 billion + Muslims in the world today. The two major sects divide into:

Sunnis (Meaning those who follow the saying “Sunna�) – 900,000,000
Shiites (Short for Shia’Ali = Ali’s party or Ali’s followers) – 100,000,000

Ismailis fall under the Shia (Shitte) sect of Islam and equal to about 25,000,000 of the world’s population today.

After the Prophet’s pilgrimage he was revealed the following verse:

'O Messenger! Convey what had been revealed to you from your Lord; if you do not do so, then [it would be as if] you have not conveyed His message [at all]. Allah will protect you from the people' (5:67) – Holy Quran

The above clearly tells us Allah had a message for Muhammed to deliver to all Muslims at the time. According to Shia’s the message is as follows:

Prophet Muhammed said:

“Whomever's mowla and Imam (master) I am, Ali is also his mowla�

Contrary to Shia belief, Sunni’s believe that no message was delivered. Now how can that be? Would Muhammed (the messenger of God) betray his own? Never!

God also states in the Holy Quran in the same Ayat (chapter) as the above, that he had perfected their religion (on the same day). Obviously perfecting the religion means having Muhammed tell the people that Ali his is successor after his death.

Okay so, Sunni’s bluntly believe that there was no spiritual successor after Muhammed, regardless of Hadiths, regardless of Quranic revelations, regardless of a present living Imam. They (the Sunnis) only believed there should be a temporal (material) ruler after Muhammed. Meaning someone to “rule� and “look after� the Muslim world of Arabia. But think about it, if Muhammed NEVER assigned a successor then how can the Sunni’s change this and assign someone to even be a temporal ruler? Further to this, Abu-Bakr, Arabia’s first Caliph (temporal ruler) assigned someone else after his death! Makes you wonder, right? I mean if the Sunni’s firmly state there was not to be any ruler, be it temporal or spiritual, then why would they go ahead and assign someone?

It’s called: Hypocrisy.

There is clear evidence and proof from many historical books that Abu-Bakr (Father of Aisha, who was the Prophet’s most favoured wife after Fatima’s death [the Prophet never married twice while Fatima was alive]) was jealous of the Prophet selecting Ali (who was his cousin and son-in-law) as opposed to himself.

Further to that, there is proof that Abu-Bakr threatened to kill those who chose to follow Ali instead of him. Also coming to a point of threatening to kill Ali himself if Ali chose to betray him.

Also, in the Quran it is said:

“Allah (God) did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of Imran above all people - a line of descendants, one succeeding the other, and Allah heareth and knoweth all things.� (3:33-34)

Ali was the son of Imran (also known popularly as Abu-Talib) who was also uncle and care taker of the Holy Prophet. Prophet Muhammed was a descendant from the line of Abraham through his son Ishmael. And in the Quran Abraham is promised seed after seed. And today Karim Aga Khan is proof of that “seed after seed�. Ismailis have come down from an UNBROKEN line through Ali. All other sects of Islam either have stopped or don’t have Imams.

I think that in itself is enough proof of who are true Muslims and who are not. I have never held anything against any Muslim, but those who claim for Ismailis and others not to be “true� are truly a disgrace to mankind. Today as human beings we are all open to the interpretation of any which religion we choose.

Furthermore, Ismailis are amongst the calmest and easy-going Muslims. We do not engage in wars, we do not support terrorism, we do not love to fight or kill our wives, nothing negative.

Also, Sunni’s who are a majority today, feel they are the only “true Muslims� okay fine. Lets take a look at something.

Today most Sunni’s keep long beards, they wear the same type of clothing as was worn 1400 years ago. They force their wives to cover their faces and bodies (when infact the covering of the entire body was initiated almost 600 years after the death of the Holy Prophet, so God knows where that comes from). They feel this is the only way they will fulfill their religious responsibilities. Isn’t religion esoteric? So since when does something exoteric as appearance matter?

Further to this, a Sunni will want to drink, he will want to have a/c, he will want to drive a car, he will want to live in a mansion, he will want to pick up a prostitute. Why? If you tell him or her that Prophet Muhammed never had the luxury of these or never did anything like this, then why won’t he follow it? Again, it’s hypocrisy!

Ismailis have a living Imam, we have a living guide. Someone who is directly from Prophet Muhammed and Ali (the prophet’s chosen successor), thus the reason we are ahead today. We do not follow material customs that were followed 1400 years back, because times change, and we as humans must follow recent times.

Lastly, has anyone ever asked a Sunni Muslim why he does Hajj? What significance does doing Hajj have? Aside from the part that is was the mosque during the time of the Prophet, what significance does it have?

Let me tell you:… it’s simple! Because Hazrat Ali was born there. And that is it!

So bottom line… let people bark of and say what they want. It is up to them to believe what they want. If someone can go as low and call another a disbeliever or not a true Muslim, let them. Words cannot hurt us… if we believe our faith is true and we have a living Imam who descents from the Holy Prophet, so be it.

Oh wait, one more thing.

All Muslims pay “Zakhat/Dasond�(a portion of their income) every month. So do we Ismailis.

So lets look at this. There are 1 billion plus Muslims in the world today. If at least each Muslim was to pay $1 a month, that would amount to $1 billion, correct? So where does that $1 billion go? Who do the rest of you Sunnis and Shias pay it to?

At least today I am happy to know that my Zakhat (Dasond) is going to good use. It is going toward the Aga Khan foundations and institutions to help the poor. To help those in need. To excel education. I am proud to tell people today that the Aga Khan Development Network is progressing in the 3rd world countries far better than any other government or charity would.

So what do we have to say now?


Ya Ali Madad

[weedb0y]

discuss this on pakcrawler.com ..there is/was a big discussion on it..

[Rehan]

Kem cho, khojo? :)
What's the reason that you greet each other with "Ya Ali Madad" instead of "Salamun Alaikum"?

[khojo]

Maja ma cho ;)

And yes why not? Islam is Ali and Ali is Islam. Similarily Ali is Muhammed and Muhammed is Ali. There are several Hadiths where Prophet Muhammed has said him and Ali are from the same divine light (nur). So what better greeting than "Ya Ali Madad" ?

Ya Ali Madad

[wanted]

sorry, nm that post.

[asim99]

Kem cho, khojo? :)
What's the reason that you greet each other with "Ya Ali Madad" instead of "Salamun Alaikum"?

i've never heard salamun alaikum
it usually either assalamo alaikam, or salamalaikum
btw, while on this topic, this guy azhar usman has a funny standup routine on salam....
http://www.azhar.com/cd/
http://www.allahmademefunny.com

[jerryhussain]

Maja ma cho ;)

And yes why not? Islam is Ali and Ali is Islam. Similarily Ali is Muhammed and Muhammed is Ali. There are several Hadiths where Prophet Muhammed has said him and Ali are from the same divine light (nur). So what better greeting than "Ya Ali Madad" ?

Ya Ali Madad
But you dont say Ya Mohammad Madad, does anybody ?

Salam alaikum is peace be upon you, not help me god.

[asim99]

But you dont say Ya Mohammad Madad, does anybody ?

i have heard that...mostly by people of barelvi sect, who consider mohammad to be alive and present

[wanted]

I usually say Salam.
AOA on MSN.

[Jabb]

Khojo, no one is saying that Ismaili's are not Muslims here, and I'm sure everyone is proud of their religon.It is said that only Allah can decide who is a Muslim and who isn't : Only He may judge. I would just like to offer my thoughts on some of your points:

Prophet Muhammed said:

“Whomever's mowla and Imam (master) I am, Ali is also his mowla�
Firstly, the quote is "Whomsoever's Mowla I am, Ali is also his Mowla" - there was no mention of Imam in there.Secondly, this is what us Ismailis believe, however, there are two meanings for the word Mowla in arabic: friend and master. This is one reason there is a division in Islam.

Furthermore, Ismailis are amongst the calmest and easy-going Muslims. We do not engage in wars, we do not support terrorism, we do not love to fight or kill our wives, nothing negative.
Sunnis, nor other Muslims support any of those things.


Lastly, has anyone ever asked a Sunni Muslim why he does Hajj? What significance does doing Hajj have? Aside from the part that is was the mosque during the time of the Prophet, what significance does it have?

Hajj is one of the 5 pillars of Islam, even us Ismailis should do it.


anyways, I hope that khojo's post didn't offend anyone, and if it did I apologize on his behalf (I'm sure he didn't mean for it to offend).

btw, don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-Ismaili, I'm just not afraid to ask questions :P

[khojo]

Jabb:

Absolutely, I have not meant any offense to anyone.

"Hajj" is indeed one of the 5 pillars of Islam. the word "Hajj" means pilgrimage, correct?... As I described to you the reason (which in my opinion) doing "Hajj" and going to the sacred mosque is "Holy" is because of Hazrat Ali.

Today Ismailis have a manifest Imam, a present living Imam. Karim Aga Khan (like all previous Imams) is also a direct descendant from Ali. He bears his nur (light). Our beliefs and doctrines are that in Jamatkhana (our "mosque" or prayer hall) this nur (light) is present, therefore that becomes my Hajj.

I do Hajj each time I go to pray, each time I go to Jamatkhana. There are always two meanings... one which is what you read (exoteric or "zahiri") and one which is within (esoteric or "batini")... Ismailism is that sect of Islam that is esoteric... it is not just about what you read, and today the Aga Khan our 49th Imam is here to interpret the Quran's esoteric meaning and reveal it to us.

[Jabb]

you don't have to explain everything to me, I am Ismaili :P - why do you think I started this thread :D

[khojo]

It's more for those who don't understand. Besides there are pupils from every religion that do not understand their own. :)

Ya Ali Madad to you.

[Jabb]

What Jamat Khane does everyone go to? I go to Headquarters in Toronto

[Jabb]

I heard that theres gonna be raas every weekend until the weekend after the Didar. anyone hear anything about that?

[batman321123]

the reason why ismailis are not muslims is because of their infatuation with hazrat ali. to be muslim, you must believer that there is one God and muhammed (pbuh) is his final messenger. aint no ali in that. once ali comes in as muhammed, you have violated the primary tenet of islam. therefore if ali is muhammaed (as one rfder said) in ismailism, then ismailis are not muslims. hazrat ali was a cousin and companion of the prophet muhammed (pbuh) and and 4th caliph, BUT HE IS NOT THE PROPHET.

in the 1970's a meeting was held in saudi arabia with the top muftis from each muslim country. there it was agreed upon that qadyanis/ahmediyas are not muslims and are of a religion of their own

[Jabb]

We believe in Muhammed and Ali.

[numb555]

5, 4, 3, 2, 1 ...........

[khojo]

the reason why ismailis are not muslims is because of their infatuation with hazrat ali. to be muslim, you must believer that there is one God and muhammed (pbuh) is his final messenger. aint no ali in that. once ali comes in as muhammed, you have violated the primary tenet of islam. therefore if ali is muhammaed (as one rfder said) in ismailism, then ismailis are not muslims. hazrat ali was a cousin and companion of the prophet muhammed (pbuh) and and 4th caliph, BUT HE IS NOT THE PROPHET.

in the 1970's a meeting was held in saudi arabia with the top muftis from each muslim country. there it was agreed upon that qadyanis/ahmediyas are not muslims and are of a religion of their own

You are free to believe what you want. Unfortunately you will remain as 1400 years back as the rest of your family members. If we are infatuated with Hazrat Ali, then we are as "infatuated" with Prophet Muhammed, and Jesus, and Moses and Abraham and every other Holy Prophet. It is not me who is saying that Ali and Muhammed share the same light, it was the Prophet himself. Are you going to argue with him to? Yes, there is no God accept Allah and Muhammed is indeed his messenger. Muhammed was the final prophet of God, but to continue the path of righteousness, everyone needs a guide. Muhammed appointed Ali as his spiritual successor. These were the wishes of God, not any other human being. Did you not read my references to the Quran? Abraham was promised seed after seed, and it is the family of Imran (Abu-Talib, Ali's father) that God chose above all. What does that tell you? ARE YOU STILL BLIND?!

Unfortunately Abu-Bakr's threats still live today with the Sunnis. And that is why today you prefer to follow the sunna as opposed to a living member of the Holy Prophet's progeny.

But what is the use of explaining this to you? If you have not been able to understand for 1400 years, you are not going to change now.

But again, whatever you choose to believe, you can. You can choose to ignore verses of the Quran as well, that is all up to you. You are just masking the truth and running as far away from it as possible.

I am not saying that Ismailism is the only "true" way to be a Muslim. All I am saying is, it is not right to call an Ismaili or any other Muslim a non-believer or not a "true" Muslim. You must fear Allah as a Muslim, because Allah has said it himself in the Quran "Everyman to his own religion" and you are just a human being, so who are you to judge?

[Jabb]

*shakes head*I just wanted to know if there were other Ismailis on RFD...

[asim99]

to me, if you call yourself muslim, you are muslim

there has been way too much 'i am right, you are wrong' attitude among muslims everywhere

if ahmadis call themselves muslims, if ismailis call themselves muslims, who the hell are we to say they are not muslims....it is between them and their god

too many muslims take too much pride in calling other self-identified muslims as non-muslims...and that has led to way too much misery, heartache and bloody conflicts...its about time they grew up

[→ElectroLux←]

I agree with Batman, Islam shall be kept pure and not infiltrated by quasi fake muslims. No it's not alright for anybody to call themselves "muslim" and do not practice the sunnah or follow the koran, or do haram things. If there's someone who is a muslim and wants to deviate from the sunnah then he should create his own thing with a different name and not call himself "whatever muslim". Let's leave Islam alone and pure.

Hint: Saddam Hussein was a kaffir, regardless if he called himself a "muslim", and so was Shah Pahlavi of Iran.

[asim99]

this post makes you really look awfully ignorant...

which islam is pure anyway? the saudi version, the deobandi version, the barelvi version, the shia version, the ahl-e-hadith version, the ismaili version, the maliki version, the shafa'i version, and so on....

and for the muslims whose acts have rendered them non-muslims (according to you), i suppose you'll go out and start killing them...because that's one of the teaching of a purer version of islam, with regards to muslims who become non-muslims (murtads)

kind of like muslim kkk

I agree with Batman, Islam shall be kept pure and not infiltrated by quasi fake muslims. No it's not alright for anybody to call themselves "muslim" and do not practice the sunnah or follow the koran, or do haram things. If there's someone who is a muslim and wants to deviate from the sunnah then he should create his own thing with a different name and not call himself "whatever muslim". Let's leave Islam alone and pure.

Hint: Saddam Hussein was a kaffir, regardless if he called himself a "muslim", and so was Shah Pahlavi of Iran.

[Jabb]

to me, if you call yourself muslim, you are muslim

there has been way too much 'i am right, you are wrong' attitude among muslims everywhere

if ahmadis call themselves muslims, if ismailis call themselves muslims, who the hell are we to say they are not muslims....it is between them and their god

too many muslims take too much pride in calling other self-identified muslims as non-muslims...and that has led to way too much misery, heartache and bloody conflicts...its about time they grew up

Seriously, I agree with you. Only God can judge people, and those that are calling other people non-muslims are defying (or mocking, if you will) God by doing so by taking away His right to judge.

[asim99]

they either want to play god, or are playing in the hands of ill-informed clergy

Seriously, I agree with you. Only God can judge people, and those that are calling other people non-muslims are defying (or mocking, if you will) God by doing so by taking away His right to judge.

[→ElectroLux←]

Look at this disgusting website made by shahaddi "muslims", do you think a real muslim would create such a blasphemous website insulting Islam?

One Pakistani guy there says he hates Islam because his father made him cut his hair.... what a loser. Another says he despises Islam because he was allowed to drink beer. Yeah okay, very nice excuses to insult someone's religion like that.

http://www.apostatesofislam.com

[asim99]

interesting website...i suppose i'll read it first before saying anything about it

Look at this disgusting website made by shahaddi "muslims", do you think a real muslim would create such a blasphemous website insulting Islam?

One Pakistani guy there says he hates Islam because his father made him cut his hair.... what a loser. Another says he despises Islam because he was allowed to drink beer. Yeah okay, very nice excuses to insult someone's religion like that.

http://www.apostatesofislam.com

[→ElectroLux←]

I don't know why when I click on a link in RFD forums my computer freezes, I cannot access the link I posted through this board for some weird reason.

Anyways, here's what one bozo from that stupid website says:

I dare ANY religion to state that claim, that their religion is from God, and prove it. Really. Just PROVE it.

I have nothing against Islam as much as I have nothing against other religions. Just don't try and sell something and say that it's from God without any valid proof.

The Koran (and even the Bible says): "We have tried to manifest ourselves to skeptic men and even when we send angels from heaven before their eyes they say "Nay, my eyes are fooling me, what I see are foolishness of my imagination".

In essence, any skeptic and incredulous bozo won't believe in the supernatural even if an angel appeared before him, he will then claim to be "hallucinating". How can you prove anything to idiots like this?

[sk8]

Look at this disgusting website made by shahaddi "muslims", do you think a real muslim would create such a blasphemous website insulting Islam?

One Pakistani guy says he hates Islam because his father made him cut his hair.... what a loser.

http://www.apostatesofislam.com

Doesn't God order Muslims to kill Apostates of Islam?

Yes, I think its no right for anyone to declare anyone anything. If they call themselves Muslims they have every valid reason behind the belief.

However there is a saying by Prophet Mohamed ( i think) that everyone except the Group (Al-Jama ah) will go to hellfire. i.e Al-Jamah is the true religion.

[khojo]

I think you guys need to think again.

Yes indeed only God can judge the truth... we are imperfect as human beings and are in no right to judge who is right and who is wrong.

Furthermore, on the topic of the Sunna. Where in the Quran does it say to follow Muhammed? The Quran itself only mentions Muhammed a few times. Abraham is mentioned far many more. God had chosen Muhammed as his messenger... he had not chosen Muhammed to teach everyone how to grow their beards and how to live 1400 years after his death. Times change, humans must as well. If you believe it is right to live backwards, then so be it.

As for Ismailis and following the Sunna, we follow what Muhammed said... he appointed Ali as his successor and that was it. You can argue and yell at the top of your lungs as much as you want. But you are not going to be able to prove anything.

As for following the Quran, as I said previously, it mentions that God chose the family of Imran (Ali's father) and promised Abraham seed after seed, and we follow this. How come you have chosen not to?

Also, both Shia and Sunni scholars agree that when Othman was putting together the Quran, Ali had offered an already compiled version to him (as he did to Abu-Bakr and Omar), but he neglected to take it. There is also belief by both Sunni and Shia scholars that the Quran is not complete and is not in 100% order. Now tell me, why would Ali have an already compiled version of the Quran? Why did Abu-Bakr, Othman, Omar have to go through the trouble of compiling one? Because Ali was the rightful bearer and interpreter, as was Muhammed.

And yes, if you want to follow "Pure Islam" then you must live 1400 years back, and be violent. You can do that, and then go to jail.

Besides since when did material things help you fulfill something as spiritual as deen?

Ismailism is no where close to being as materialistic as you are... it is esoteric, it is about the inner meaning. At least today the Aga Khan can rightfully correct a wrong Hadith, after all his family descends from the Prophet himself.

[khojo]

Doesn't God order Muslims to kill Apostates of Islam?

Yes, I think its no right for anyone to declare anyone anything. If they call themselves Muslims they have every valid reason behind the belief.

However there is a saying by Prophet Mohamed ( i think) that everyone except the Group (Al-Jama ah) will go to hellfire. i.e Al-Jamah is the true religion.

Incorrect. The Prophet had said that he predicts and knows there will be

73 sects of Islam, 72 sects of Christianity and 71 sects of Judaism, but only one from each will be the true sect.

[asim99]

i am sure every single one of the sects of islam considers itself the right way, because if it didn't, it's followers would be in another sect

muslims need to develop the kind of tolerence and acceptance where they should stop imposing their idea of 'what real islam is' on others, and just mind their own business in the matters of faith

However there is a saying by Prophet Mohamed ( i think) that everyone except the Group (Al-Jama ah) will go to hellfire. i.e Al-Jamah is the true religion.

[→ElectroLux←]

Ismailism is no where close to being as materialistic as you are... it is esoteric, it is about the inner meaning. At least today the Aga Khan can rightfully correct a wrong Hadith, after all his family descends from the Prophet himself.

If you are peaceful and submissive then why have ya deviated from Islam and try to change it with different unfounded beliefs? Why not call your beliefs something else and leave Islam and muslims out of it?

[asim99]

what other groups should 'leave islam and muslims out of it'? where does it stop? i am curious

If you are peaceful and submissive then why have ya deviated from Islam and try to change it with different unfounded beliefs? Why not call your beliefs something else and leave Islam and muslims out of it?

[khojo]

If you are peaceful and submissive then why have ya deviated from Islam and try to change it with different unfounded beliefs? Why not call your beliefs something else and leave Islam and muslims out of it?

Islam is a type of religion where you must follow worldly matters within the ethics of Islam. Therefore Islam must be dynamic, if we are static like most Sunni's then how will we progress? If that was the case and the world was rulled by Sunnis then we would still be 1400 years back. We would not have allowed science to evolve, not have allowed humans to move further.

We would have said things like "Muhammed did not go to the moon, why should we?". You have to be accepting, as times change, as places move, we humans go places, everything surrounding them does too.

Plus keep in mind, Islam is not the only religion, there are far many more... and many more before Islam... Muhammed was on earth not to create a religion called "Islam" and tell the whole world they are wrong... There is an inner meaning to him and his cause... but you choose to follow the outter shell.

[sk8]

what other groups should 'leave islam and muslims out of it'? where does it stop? i am curious

Thats exactly what I was thinking.

[khojo]

Plus I don't understand.

If Sunni's must follow the Sunna, then why are you driving cars?
-Why not ride a Camal instead?

Why are you making use of A/C?
-Why not use a hand made straw fan?

Why are you taking showers?
-You should be exactly how people were back then, do you share the same water with your whole family?

Why do you have toilets in your house?
-You should do your stuff on the ground

So if you're telling me Ismailis deviate, then what about Sunni's?... Or are you going to pick and choose what to follow?... Just like how Abu-Bakr said there is no successor to Muhammed, but instead he decided to appoint himself and others after him.

[→ElectroLux←]

if we are static like most Sunni's then how will we progress? If that was the case and the world was rulled by Sunnis then we would still be 1400 years back. We would not have allowed science to evolve, not have allowed humans to move further.

We would have said things like "Muhammed did not go to the moon, why should we?".

Any muslim who is against technology or science is contradicting the Koran, I don't know where the Taliban got the idea that telephones and TV are "kaffir", at the height of Islam's power muslims were the most advanced astronomers, scientists, inventors and writers in the world. Islam and technology ARE compatible, but I don't want the "advancement" of apostates such as Hosni Mubarak, the Shah of Iran or King Hussein, we can have advancement in Islam without apostates such as this ruling us.

[khojo]

Again, just pick and choose... right?

[asim99]

reminds me of the noble laureatte (sp?) abdus salam, who was disowned by the pakistani government ad people just because he was ahmadi...what a shame

muslim mainstream has been hijacked by a groups of backward-thinking self-righteous people who believe in exclusiveness, rather than inclusiveness

Any muslim who is against technology or science is contradicting the Koran, I don't know where the Taliban got the idea that telephones and TV are "kaffir", at the height of Islam's power muslims were the most advanced astronomers, scientists, inventors and writers in the world. Islam and technology ARE compatible, but I don't want the "advancement" of apostates such as Hosni Mubarak, the Shah of Iran or King Hussein, we can have advancement in Islam without apostates such as this ruling us.

[sk8]

Also, both Shia and Sunni scholars agree that when Othman was putting together the Quran, Ali had offered an already compiled version to him (as he did to Abu-Bakr and Omar), but he neglected to take it. There is also belief by both Sunni and Shia scholars that the Quran is not complete and is not in 100% order. Now tell me, why would Ali have an already compiled version of the Quran? Why did Abu-Bakr, Othman, Omar have to go through the trouble of compiling one? Because Ali was the rightful bearer and interpreter, as was Muhammed.


Ok just curious. I there Ali's version of Quran is existance? How is it different than the current one.
Any sources that support this claim?

[khojo]

?¨ElectroLux?©

Reading your other posts, it doesn't seem like you have much respect for people. You seem to be racist, brunt and out right rude to others. Who do you think you are? You are in no right to prove anyone to be right or wrong, I suggest you stop replying with made up answers and picking and chosing... you are better off posting in familiarity somewhere else with your friends.

[Rehan]

Ok just curious. I there Ali's version of Quran is existance? How is it different than the current one.
Any sources that support this claim? http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter8/4.html

[khojo]

Ok just curious. I there Ali's version of Quran is existance? How is it different than the current one.
Any sources that support this claim?

No, Ali had said that he will never reveal the Quran (after he was rejected by Abu-Bakr, Omar and Othman) until the end of time.

I do not have the sources off hand, but if you do a little digging you will find what you need. It's all a matter of patience. :)

But those who study Islamic history and are not in the mind-set of bashing other Muslims... both Sunnis and Shias, will tell you what I said is true.

[khojo]

Oops, I guess Rehan found it.

:) Excellent.

[asim99]

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter8/4.html

from that link:

There is no dispute among Muslim scholars, whether they are Sunni or Shia, concerning the fact that the Commander of Believers, Ali (AS), possessed a special transcript of the text of Quran which he had collected himself, and he was THE FIRST who compiled Quran.

this seems like a misstatement, since i have never met any sunni who agrees with that....

[Rehan]

this seems like a misstatement, since i have never met any sunni who agrees with that....But how many of them have been scholars with proper study of Islamic history? The statement says "There is no dispute among Muslim scholars"... Perhaps it's an exaggeration, but the point is that there is lots of support for it.

[khojo]

I was going to say the same.

Speaking to a human with no background of history is not going to get you the correct answer.

It's important to gain knowledge from someone of a scholary background...

[asim99]

actually when i look at the sunni references, none of them are major interpretative works (i mean Sihah Sitta)...the closest one seems to be 'Fat'hul Bari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari' which is not the famed sahih bukhari itself, rather an explanation of it....

p.s. i'd say at least about a dozen who one would consider a scholar...they would not entertain even the idea of any other quran

But how many of them have been scholars with proper study of Islamic history? The statement says "There is no dispute among Muslim scholars"... Perhaps it's an exaggeration, but the point is that there is lots of support for it.

[khojo]

actually when i look at the sunni references, none of them are major interpretative works (i mean Sihah Sitta)...the closest one seems to be 'Fat'hul Bari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari' which is not the famed sahih bukhari itself, rather an explanation of it....

p.s. i'd say at least about a dozen who one would consider a scholar...they would not entertain even the idea of any other quran

We are not talking about "another Quran", we're talking about "the Quran"... As in what was originally revealed to the Holy Prophet, as per Ali's words.

You must realize that it took 3 people to compile what one person put together. In the right mind, you must question whether the Quran is complete or not. That is all I mean.

[asim99]

actually my point seems to have been lost somewhere :cheesygri

regardless of my beliefs about the various details in islam (quran's completeness being one of them), i do not consider it appropriate to decide who is muslim or who is not....

you (in a rhetorical sense) are a muslim to me as long as call yourself one

We are not talking about "another Quran", we're talking about "the Quran"... As in what was originally revealed to the Holy Prophet, as per Ali's words.

You must realize that it took 3 people to compile what one person put together. In the right mind, you must question whether the Quran is complete or not. That is all I mean.

[khojo]

lol, I agree with you :)

[mahjongmaniac]

nope, dunno any muslims .

but now i do... ;)

[sk8]

No, Ali had said that he will never reveal the Quran (after he was rejected by Abu-Bakr, Omar and Othman) until the end of time.


You mean there will be resurrection of Ali to conquer the world and spread the True Religion.

Anyways, I'll read that links and research more. But I fail to see that that Quranic verses were tampered with or they are missing. I mean if you read it you would know that the verses in Koran dont set right. There's fluency throughout the chapters and in the meaning also.

[Mir]

I am Shia :)
God is one
God supersede every thing; every way
Muhammed (pbuh) is his final messenger
This is it.
However hazrat Ali is a Scholar of the eternity. He have was right wing man to Muhammaed; was there when ever need of him. He was/is/will not be a prophet; or anybody else.

[khojo]

Every Shia believes in their own doctrine. You are open to your beliefs as your leaders teach you.

If Ali was only Muhammed's right wing man,

Then why did you follow Ali? (As do all Shias)

Then why do most if not all Shias say "Ya Ali Madad"

You are diminishing your background by changing doctrinal beliefs and dictating what you personally believe.

I am not sure to what sect of Shia Islam you belong to, but the Ithna Ashris also know Ali was not only "Muhammed's right hand man"

Let me give you an example. If you read the book "Early Shi'i Thoughts" by Dr. Arzina Lalani (PHD). It is said:

"... the task of communicating the Sura al-Bara'a to the people of Mecca was initially given to Abu Bakr, but following a Quranic revelation Ali was asked to deliver the message, retrieving the chapter from Abu Bakr" (Page 5)

If Muhammed asked Ali to reveal to the people a Quranic verse/chapter, I am sure he is more than just a "right hand" or "right wing" man.

Also clearly distinguishes the place of Abu-Bakr and Ali...

[Mir]

Every Shia believes in their own doctrine. You are open to your beliefs as your leaders teach you.
Thank You.
Also, Muhammed (pbuh) said in his Last Speech too! Known Aqree (Last) Kutba(Speech)

If Ali was only Muhammed's right wing man,

Then why did you follow Ali? (As do all Shias)[/qutoe]
We/I do not follow Ali. We follow what God have said; which is written in Quran, and Muhammed (pbuh) have said.
[QUOTE=khojo]

Then why do most if not all Shias say "Ya Ali Madad"

Cause Hazrat Ali is also known as a Great warrior too.
Ya Ali Madad mean; Asking God to help you Via and Ali's Style.
Which is basically mean vcious style.
That is also why commondo in Pakistan say that.
It gives ya JOLT!


I am not sure to what sect of Shia Islam you belong to, but the Ithna Ashris also know Ali was not only "Muhammed's right hand man"

Let me give you an example. If you read the book "Early Shi'i Thoughts" by Dr. Arzina Lalani (PHD). It is said:

"... the task of communicating the Sura al-Bara'a to the people of Mecca was initially given to Abu Bakr, but following a Quranic revelation Ali was asked to deliver the message, retrieving the chapter from Abu Bakr" (Page 5)

If Muhammed asked Ali to reveal to the people a Quranic verse/chapter, I am sure he is more than just a "right hand" or "right wing" man.

Also clearly distinguishes the place of Abu-Bakr and Ali...
I really dont know about any sect in Shia.
People call; Asna-Ashri or Alay-Teshi etc.
No Shia or Muslim; can bring anybody next prophet or God! !
If they do, then do doing Kufar and possiably a shreek.
Also Hzrat Ali can't touch prophet or can even compare to prophet.
Prophet; can't come close to God either.
It goes following way
All Might is God
Hzrat Muhammed (pbuh)
Ends
Now for reference of things; since Muhammed was no longer there
People have consult and have talked about Hrat Ali and Allay-baat.
They been stars in Islam cause; cause they were Infallible and done lots of sacrifices for Islam in the name of God.

[khojo]

You might want to consult your family members before posting (To learn more about the position of the Imam’s after Muhammed). If you are a Shia, then why are your views so much like a Sunni? I don't understand.

But anyway, that is another discussion all together.

You should realize that the Prophet was chosen to reveal God's wishes, and one of those was that Hazrat Ali was to succeed Muhammed's position both materially and spiritually.

And once again (for what, the 5th time?) it is in the Quran itself that God had chosen the family of Imran (Ali’s father, Abu-Talib) above all.

and NO we are not saying Ya Ali Madad to ask God to protect us via Ali's style... perhaps that is the way you look at it. For Ismailis there is an esoteric meaning behind it.

Anyways, time to hit the sack.

Ya Ali Madad.

[Mir]

I been famous for that in family.
If I soundes sunni; its ok with me.
I do not know what Ismailis thinks.
I know for fact
Hzrat Ali is not above Messenger or GOD
Only God can protect you.
God always do its stuff; but always VIA!
Ali can't do a squat; until God will is there.
and Good Night and Kuda-Hafiz or Fee-Iman-Alaha

[Jabb]

Rehan, could you close this thread? I didn't mean for any religious arguements to break out and now people are getting offended left and right >_>.

[old_old_7]

Wish I am.
Hi brothers :)