2002 Audi A4 1.8T? or 2001 BMW 325i?

[Neb]

Hi, I need your help here to decide between those 2.

What would u buy if pricing are similar around 30k for either. Besides the obvious in the specs, I am concern with fuel mileage, maintenance cost, reliability?

I know the A4, and 3 series are both getting a new model next year.

Let's here the pros and cons.

[gilboman]

BMW... way more satisfying drive , more reliable (compared to audi), RWD and the inline 6 in the bimmer is much better than the 1.8T in the audi , the Bimmer is faster too

[microBe]

325i would get my vote in this case.

Turbo is going to give you a lot of headache down the road (esp. VW, sorry).

[careener]

I'd say avoid the 1.8t engine.

[lexus]

Go for BMW.
Having a used turbo is painful!

[pandaharo]

BMW...to avoid the turbo and also A4 is getting a makeover so your car would look ancient..

[yatko]

I would say, neither since spending 30K on a used car is not wise. Esp on these two since both will soon be starting to break up here and there and your TCO will increase as the time passes by.

I would hunt for a brand new car at that price range.

[PrinceMS]

When /(if) you are selling down the line. You will get more for BMW than Audi

[McLaren]

For fuel costs, the A4 would be better, reliability - an '02 model would still have the 2 yrs left on the factory warranty, but I know you are not got going to keep it for a while so having the turbo blow on you shouldn't be a concern.

I think the A4 looks better, but the bimmer has better resale value. You also get quattro on the audi. Asking a bunch of cheapos for advice on luxury cars is prolly not the best, since they would say neither are good value.

[actng]

Yeah don't listen to those mofos who diss VW. They have never had a luxury VW before. The Audi A4 is the way to go. The 3.0 might be better power for that chasis but the 1.8T will be fun also. The Audi has better warranty/maintenance coverage than the bimmer. My gf's allroad just had all its brake pads and rotors replaced under warranty.

The bimmer is also way too cliche. From this board, you can already tell BMW has entered that class of cars where people just go... "WOW it's a BMW/BENZ, it must be a good car!"

I'd pick the 1.8T. The 1.8T can not be beat.

[prof_frink]

Yeah don't listen to those mofos who diss VW. They have never had a luxury VW before.

I had a friend who had a turbo A4 - it cost him an arm and a leg in constant repair.

[flame02]

I had a friend who had a turbo A4 - it cost him an arm and a leg in constant repair.

really? he must have abused that car or not maintain it at all! Either car is rock solid and wont give u any problem until about 6 or 7 years down the road. They both are made to last, unlike domestic cars. Ive got a 98 Integra and it hasnt had a single problem so far, u just gatta maintain it!

[Kenneth]

Neither - find the most basic 330i with the sport package (II/III).

[gilboman]

Yeah don't listen to those mofos who diss VW. They have never had a luxury VW before. The Audi A4 is the way to go. The 3.0 might be better power for that chasis but the 1.8T will be fun also. The Audi has better warranty/maintenance coverage than the bimmer. My gf's allroad just had all its brake pads and rotors replaced under warranty.

The bimmer is also way too cliche. From this board, you can already tell BMW has entered that class of cars where people just go... "WOW it's a BMW/BENZ, it must be a good car!"

I'd pick the 1.8T. The 1.8T can not be beat.

what good is VW luxury if its sitting at the side of the road or service bay? or is it luxury to have your moonroof stuck open while its raining and your CEL light is on. If i wasnt a pasenger in that A4 it would be a really funny story.

[SoNgMaN]

what good is VW luxury if its sitting at the side of the road or service bay? or is it luxury to have your moonroof stuck open while its raining and your CEL light is on. If i wasnt a pasenger in that A4 it would be a really funny story.

why don't you get back on vaughan transit and shutup.

[McLaren]

lol, i find it funny that giboman has all these friends with vw and audi's with all these 'horror' stories. You're probably not even old enough to drive, grow up already.

Maybe one day you will be able to own your dream car:

http://www.pifiu.com/vortex/uploads/2004-dec/pt_DSCF0021.jpg

[actng]

what good is VW luxury if its sitting at the side of the road or service bay? or is it luxury to have your moonroof stuck open while its raining and your CEL light is on. If i wasnt a pasenger in that A4 it would be a really funny story.

It's not good if it's sitting at the side of the road. It's only good when you're driving it. Not sure why you would want to leave it on the side of the road. I'd never park on car on the side of the road.

If you don't expect to bring a car into the service bay, that would explain why the A4 you were a passenger in had all those problems.

Any late model Audi/VW is a good buy. Especially the newer models. But like I've said many times, if you don't know why you should buy VW/Audi, then you don't deserve to drive one.

All these people complaining about their VWs from the early/mid 90s... dude... the car is like 10 yrs old. You find me a 10 yr old car that still performs that doesn't have problems. And don't name me those fugging corollas and civics from the 80s that clog up the road and make me late for work.

[MTL-TechY]

BMW... way more satisfying drive , more reliable (compared to audi), RWD and the inline 6 in the bimmer is much better than the 1.8T in the audi , the Bimmer is faster too


i agree with bmw, coz my neighbor had the 2002 audi A4, and had many problems with the engine, turbo and had to get rid of it, luckily he did

[gilboman]

lol, i find it funny that giboman has all these friends with vw and audi's with all these 'horror' stories. You're probably not even old enough to drive, grow up already.

Maybe one day you will be able to own your dream car:

http://www.pifiu.com/vortex/uploads/2004-dec/pt_DSCF0021.jpg

well what can i say..me and my friends were stupid in HS and bought VW's b/c it had a nice interior and relatively cheap and not as common as a civic but of course we've realized a car's reliability is very important.

[gilboman]

It's not good if it's sitting at the side of the road. It's only good when you're driving it. Not sure why you would want to leave it on the side of the road. I'd never park on car on the side of the road.

If you don't expect to bring a car into the service bay, that would explain why the A4 you were a passenger in had all those problems.

Any late model Audi/VW is a good buy. Especially the newer models. But like I've said many times, if you don't know why you should buy VW/Audi, then you don't deserve to drive one.

All these people complaining about their VWs from the early/mid 90s... dude... the car is like 10 yrs old. You find me a 10 yr old car that still performs that doesn't have problems. And don't name me those fugging corollas and civics from the 80s that clog up the road and make me late for work.

then why is 2001 VW's still ranked so low in reliability???? or how about brand new 2003 are second worst in initial quality?

or was that 2000 german made golf i had a prototype from the 90s?
look in the following thread to see VW ranked 5th last in dependability based on MY2001 (worse than suzuki) cars and 2nd last in initial quality for 2004 (only a hummer is worse)
http://67.19.207.84/~redflagd/forum/showthread.php?t=139049&page=4&pp=15

[downloader]

Hey its your money you can buy a lemon, or a peach

[actng]

then why is 2001 VW's still ranked so low in reliability???? or how about brand new 2003 are second worst in initial quality?

or was that 2000 german made golf i had a prototype from the 90s?
look in the following thread to see VW ranked 5th last in dependability based on MY2001 (worse than suzuki) cars and 2nd last in initial quality for 2004 (only a hummer is worse)
http://67.19.207.84/~redflagd/forum/showthread.php?t=139049&page=4&pp=15

I'm so friggin sick of this crap from you. If you live by those surveys, you die by those surveys. If Canada is rated the happiest country on earth, does that mean you're happy? If a KIA is rated worst in safety, is it impossible for some girl to have survived an accident in which she was T-boned?

You name me all the problems SPECIFICALLY that your friends had with their car. Tell me what they did to fix it and where they brought it to for fixing. If it's anything aside from a window regulator, mass air flow sensor, oxygen sensor which takes less than 1/2 day to fix and is covered under warranty, then you need to tell your friend to take it up specifically with VWAG.

McLaren, join me and tell this fool to STFU.

[canadiantofu]

I had a friend who had a turbo A4 - it cost him an arm and a leg in constant repair.

Same here. Especially the Turbo, it was a big bill. From my own research, I would rather get a used A6 if I was going to Audi.

[SoNgMaN]

I'm so friggin sick of this crap from you. If you live by those surveys, you die by those surveys. If Canada is rated the happiest country on earth, does that mean you're happy? If a KIA is rated worst in safety, is it impossible for some girl to have survived an accident in which she was T-boned?

You name me all the problems SPECIFICALLY that your friends had with their car. Tell me what they did to fix it and where they brought it to for fixing. If it's anything aside from a window regulator, mass air flow sensor, oxygen sensor which takes less than 1/2 day to fix and is covered under warranty, then you need to tell your friend to take it up specifically with VWAG.

McLaren, join me and tell this fool to STFU.

TY!

[gilboman]

I'm so friggin sick of this crap from you. If you live by those surveys, you die by those surveys. If Canada is rated the happiest country on earth, does that mean you're happy? If a KIA is rated worst in safety, is it impossible for some girl to have survived an accident in which she was T-boned?

You name me all the problems SPECIFICALLY that your friends had with their car. Tell me what they did to fix it and where they brought it to for fixing. If it's anything aside from a window regulator, mass air flow sensor, oxygen sensor which takes less than 1/2 day to fix and is covered under warranty, then you need to tell your friend to take it up specifically with VWAG.

McLaren, join me and tell this fool to STFU.

you dont live and die by the surveys..but VW is like rwanda on the list.. sure you may not die if you live there, but would you say its better place to live than canada?

of course you can say you love rwanda and its great place to live and you wouldnt want to live anywhere else, but that doesnt mean its a better place to canada

for the kia comment, if kia was ranked worst in safety, would you not say someone in a volvo would have better probability of surviving a collison than in a kia? samething with VW and reliabilty

also, reliaiblity was brought up and it seems you/someone disagreed that VW had worse reliability than others, so those charts illustrate it for you that VW is the worst pretty much..

you can say you have no pblms with your VW and you love it, but you cant lie and go against years of studies which say VW sucks in reliaiblity. you can also say reliability is not important, but not VW has good reliaiblty

here are somethings wrong with just my 2000 golf

window regulator
windshiled wiper motor
sunroof
squeaks and rattles galore
CEL which turned out to be smth with the turbo (took them a week to get part and fix)
shift solenoid on tranny
all the lights on dash died while driving (replaced entire assembly, 2 days)

and the best one was, i went to pick up the car after they called me, got there..waited 2 hrs b/c they couldnt find my key ;)

all this in one year

my friend's 2001 GTI was a total disaster and the pblms are too many to list


everything is a probability game, just with VW, you have much higher probability of it breaking down, simple as that.

[McLaren]

Theres no point arguing with this guy. He had a bad experience and so did his 'friends'. Fine let it be, vw's aren't for everyone. I think its generally known that they are not as reliable. The general public of rfd are that they want something cheap that can get them from point A to point B and are not really car enthusiasts.

Gilboman has made his point, but it's really irritating to find every car thread turn into a vw bashing fest. Buddy.. we get the point, you got a lemon. Go make your own gripe site if you must. But there are many satisfied owners, but you won't hear them praising it, posting on every message board exclaiming how their car is problem free today.

Also VW dealers aren't known for their customer service and/or competance, thats what they sorrowly lack in the north american market, hence I believe goes to their poor surveys.

If they are such poor cars, why do you see so many on the road? Obviously people are buying them, hell... even you bought one (so you say). Just go back to your cookie-cutter civic and be happy that you are not getting wet in the rain.

Oh and whoever said VW is the 21st car manufacturer in germany is ********. VW is the largest european manufacturer, cross the pond and you will see them everywhere.

[advantage21]

Back on topic, go with the Bimmer, drives much better.

[actng]

well said... cheapos on RFD should buy a corolla. it'll take them from point a to point b without any maintenance, oil changes, or even visits to the gas station. sounds like gilboman should buy a shitbox like that.

people who buy VWs and have it serviced at VW are idiots. there's a whole community of dubbers out there who help each other out. a VW is the ultimate do it yourself car. having said that, if you get an audi, you SHOULD bring it back to the dealer for servicing, b/c every little thing is covered under warranty and while they fix it, you get to drive the new A4 or the new Beetle or the new Golf, etc.


i don't think gilbowoman had a lemon. i just don't think he knows how to drive a turbo. none of those things he listed is a big deal. i can do most of those things on that list myself in a week. so if he brought it to the right dealer (check with dubbers for dealers to avoid) or had a dubber help him out, he would have saved a lot of time and money.

it also sounds like he doesn't know how to drive a turbo. i have never heard of problems with the turbo before, except when people were modding and blew it by accident and when n00bs drive it.

You need to cool the turbo down for at least a minute before you shut the car off. That's why people have turbo timers. Those things cost $100 and it takes a n00b about 2 hrs to install... a mech about 45 minutes.

finally, if you want positive references for VW... i can point you to a network of about 45,000 people who will swear by VWAG.

back on topic, pick the Audi. The bimmer is overrated and expensive to maintain.

Theres no point arguing with this guy. He had a bad experience and so did his 'friends'. Fine let it be, vw's aren't for everyone. I think its generally known that they are not as reliable. The general public of rfd are that they want something cheap that can get them from point A to point B and are not really car enthusiasts.

Gilboman has made his point, but it's really irritating to find every car thread turn into a vw bashing fest. Buddy.. we get the point, you got a lemon. Go make your own gripe site if you must. But there are many satisfied owners, but you won't hear them praising it, posting on every message board exclaiming how their car is problem free today.

Also VW dealers aren't known for their customer service and/or competance, thats what they sorrowly lack in the north american market, hence I believe goes to their poor surveys.

If they are such poor cars, why do you see so many on the road? Obviously people are buying them, hell... even you bought one (so you say). Just go back to your cookie-cutter civic and be happy that you are not getting wet in the rain.

Oh and whoever said VW is the 21st car manufacturer in germany is ********. VW is the largest european manufacturer, cross the pond and you will see them everywhere.

[KevC]

1.8T. For sure. I <3 AWD. Sure, it's a power sapper and it's heavy, but I love it. And the 1.8T is SOO moddable. One of vw/audi's best engines.

[accordperformance]

i say bmw, no offense to audi, but don't trust them no more
i had a a4 be4, turbo gone off 2 times in 3 years.
Same with my friend's S4 2 times in 2 years
plus the cost of maintanence is scary......
maybe is just an coinsidence but chances are bmw is more reliable (i think)
but i do have a friend driving a a4 too, it's been 5 or 6 years now
he never had anything wrong with the car



Yeah don't listen to those mofos who diss VW. They have never had a luxury VW before. The Audi A4 is the way to go. The 3.0 might be better power for that chasis but the 1.8T will be fun also. The Audi has better warranty/maintenance coverage than the bimmer. My gf's allroad just had all its brake pads and rotors replaced under warranty.

The bimmer is also way too cliche. From this board, you can already tell BMW has entered that class of cars where people just go... "WOW it's a BMW/BENZ, it must be a good car!"

I'd pick the 1.8T. The 1.8T can not be beat.

[AudiDude]

1.8T. For sure. I <3 AWD. Sure, it's a power sapper and it's heavy, but I love it. And the 1.8T is SOO moddable. One of vw/audi's best engines.

As true as this definately is, I think they should get a V6 unless they are an enthusiast or are into taking care of their cars. I can imagine the amount of people leasing 1.8ts that beat the crap out of them and shut the engine off while the turbo is spinning @ 55k RPM. They know they are getting another car in 3 years and don't take care of anything. If you lease all the time, I don't really think it matters too much what you drive anyways. Nothing has to last because you won't have it that long. Special performance things that are a bit finnickey are not ideal leasing cars for these people.

[RendX]

Now now.. no need to call all the people on RFD cheapos. As for the Corolla, it's an econobox grocery getter and does exactly what it does well. Calling it a shitbox is wrong. Let's just leave it at that. Back to the point.

When it comes down to it, the A4 and the BMW aren't the most reliable cars. That means you really have to take care of them (which means having an intact warranty will help). A Naturally aspirated engine is always easier to maintain than a turbo engine. From my experience with BMWs, you'll probably be servicing minor things (but expensive fixes, ie. brake pads, electrical, etc), but the engine itself is pretty solid. My friends with VWs either love them or hate them. Some have great experiences and some don't. I liked the VR6 but bought my RSX-S instead due to the great deal i got on it.

Why are people who buy VWs and get them serviced at VW idiots? Sure there's a community, but you have to be an enthusiast to find it. What if you want to buy a VW, and don't know much about them? Where else would you go to get them serviced? You're mixing yourself up between a first time VW buyer and an enthusiast (or someone turned enthusiast because they've been ripped off from VW servicing). You seem to be an enthusiast Dubber, but not everyone is.

As for gilboman not knowing how to drive a turbo, it's no different to drive a turbo than a regular car. Maintaining and taking care of it is another matter. Turbo timers are a good investment for a turbo car. That's the first thing my friend bought for his Volvo S40R .. very nice car btw ;).

Personally, i think you can't go wrong with either one since both have their pros and cons. You can check out Edmunds.com for their long term reliability tests. I believe you can find the A4 here (http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/longterm/articles/59310/article.html), a 2002 330i here (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/LongTerm/articleId=66109) and a 1999 328i here (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/LongTerm/articleId=44466) .

Just remember your mileage may vary. Sometimes you end up with a car built on a Friday.. ;)

well said... cheapos on RFD should buy a corolla. it'll take them from point a to point b without any maintenance, oil changes, or even visits to the gas station. sounds like gilboman should buy a shitbox like that.

people who buy VWs and have it serviced at VW are idiots. there's a whole community of dubbers out there who help each other out. a VW is the ultimate do it yourself car. having said that, if you get an audi, you SHOULD bring it back to the dealer for servicing, b/c every little thing is covered under warranty and while they fix it, you get to drive the new A4 or the new Beetle or the new Golf, etc.


i don't think gilbowoman had a lemon. i just don't think he knows how to drive a turbo. none of those things he listed is a big deal. i can do most of those things on that list myself in a week. so if he brought it to the right dealer (check with dubbers for dealers to avoid) or had a dubber help him out, he would have saved a lot of time and money.

it also sounds like he doesn't know how to drive a turbo. i have never heard of problems with the turbo before, except when people were modding and blew it by accident and when n00bs drive it.

You need to cool the turbo down for at least a minute before you shut the car off. That's why people have turbo timers. Those things cost $100 and it takes a n00b about 2 hrs to install... a mech about 45 minutes.

finally, if you want positive references for VW... i can point you to a network of about 45,000 people who will swear by VWAG.

back on topic, pick the Audi. The bimmer is overrated and expensive to maintain.

[actng]

I wasn't calling everyone on RFD cheapos. I was singling out the cheapos on RFD. If you are a cheapo on RFD and only care about point a to point b, buy a corolla which i consider a shitbox.

Driving a turbo is significantly different from a natural aspirated engine. The turbo lag alone requires a different level of anticipation and timing and some extent skills. You can shut an engine off immediately after driving a normal engine but if you do that to a turbo, you can fry it the first time, depending on how hot the turbo is. You MUST let the turbo cool down before you shut it down.

I'll rephrase the servicing statement. The point I was trying to get at is that not all VW dealerships are equal. I've been to another brands' dealership but I would also imagine that no dealerships are equal. You have to go do your research and find out which dealership is good at what. Some are good for buying while terrible for servicing... apparently Greenbelt VW is one of those. Some are great for servicing but terrible for purchase... VW Villa is one of those. In order to find out which dealership is good, you have a whole community of helpful and friendly dubbers out there that are willing to point you in the right direction, whether you want to get the dealer to service your car or whether you want to do it yourself.

I don't think there is a better community out there that's helpful, friendly, and TECHNICAL like there is for VW.

[RendX]

I've driven my fair share of turbos (300ZX TT, S40R, WRX, A4, Mazdaspeed Protege) and it depends on the size of the turbo which directly affects the turbo lag. The ones with a larger turbo have more lag and the small ones don't have as much lag. Personally, i enjoyed the supercharged Mini the most (boost vs blower) for sheer fun but i think it has something to do with the car ;)

In addition, it's also about the HP. You're not going to be driving fast cars if you choose either one. Quick cars.. but not fast. When boost kicks in it's not going to have such a large impact that it takes skill to fight with the car ;)

Anyways.. it just all depends on what Neb wants. Cheap, fast and reliable don't go together in the same sentence for any car out there. You just have to weigh in the importance of each and go from there.

I wasn't calling everyone on RFD cheapos. I was singling out the cheapos on RFD. If you are a cheapo on RFD and only care about point a to point b, buy a corolla which i consider a shitbox.

Driving a turbo is significantly different from a natural aspirated engine. The turbo lag alone requires a different level of anticipation and timing and some extent skills. You can shut an engine off immediately after driving a normal engine but if you do that to a turbo, you can fry it the first time, depending on how hot the turbo is. You MUST let the turbo cool down before you shut it down.

I'll rephrase the servicing statement. The point I was trying to get at is that not all VW dealerships are equal. I've been to another brands' dealership but I would also imagine that no dealerships are equal. You have to go do your research and find out which dealership is good at what. Some are good for buying while terrible for servicing... apparently Greenbelt VW is one of those. Some are great for servicing but terrible for purchase... VW Villa is one of those. In order to find out which dealership is good, you have a whole community of helpful and friendly dubbers out there that are willing to point you in the right direction, whether you want to get the dealer to service your car or whether you want to do it yourself.

I don't think there is a better community out there that's helpful, friendly, and TECHNICAL like there is for VW.

[r1lee]

I currently own the '03 1.8T quattro and I really recommend it. but I hear that the '02's had a lot of problems, and I really mean alot. I really didn't have any problems with this car, but its quite boring to drive to be honest with you.

I also own a BMW '98 2.8 z3 convertible, and well... its alot of fun to drive. Even though it might not be the same car, they drive similar. But be prepared to spend some money on maintenance and repairs. As myself and my gf have issues with both of our 2.8's. Its typical, as I know alot of people who have problems with their BMW's. But I can say the same for Audi.

Reliability wise = Audi wins... as i've had less problems with it. I've own the BMW since it was new and well I've had problems from the get go.

Fun to Drive = easily hands down.. BMW

Its really hard to decide, as both cars offer different experiences. A fairer comparison for you would be the 325Xi.

[bpopd]

both cars are going to be redesigned.

why not wait till they are redesigned, then discuss this topic over again?

[warpdrive]

really? he must have abused that car or not maintain it at all! Either car is rock solid and wont give u any problem until about 6 or 7 years down the road. !

Funny you should say that....

I own a 1997 A4 1.8T, which is coming up on 8 years (bought brand new).

It was great the first few years (under warranty, free maintenance). But now it's been expensive to keep, it drinks oil, and the control arms just cost me $1200 to replace (after labour). The car has less than 100000km on it. My wife drives it, and I *know* she doesn't abuse it.

So I would take issue with your statement that these cars are "rock solid" and "won't give you any problems"

For the original poster, I'd take the BMW, nothing beats the smoothness of a good inline 6. The AWD of the Audi is really nice though.

[actng]

Good to see some sensible reviews and positive attitude criticisms finally.

[blizzah]

both cars are going to be redesigned.

why not wait till they are redesigned, then discuss this topic over again?

The 06 3-series looks really nice, and I'd go with the BMW hands down.

[lasallejai]

I have driven a few turbo charged cars too, and I never have had any problem with them from the Turbo Colt my present Talon TSi. I think many owners do not even read the user's manu so they do not really know there are extra precautions to care for the turbo engine. For one, some turbo charged cars need to be warmed up before driving off, and before shutting down after hgih speed driving like on the hwy's. I pay quite a bit attention to how other drivers treat their TC cars, and I can tell you that 7 out of 10 do not follow what the manu says. For TC cars you also need to change the engine oil more frequently as well. I also know some one who used to own an A4 1.8T and kept putting in regular gasoline into the gas tank when on the dash board and the gas cap it specifically said hgih octane gasoline was required.

Back to the issue on this posting, I strongly believe the Bimmer is a fun car to drive in the summer, especially for people who drive standard, but the Audi A4 1.8T is a car good for summer and winter, especailly when the road is wet, muddy, sandy, and covered with snow. The Bimmer's engine is well built and the sound it makes when put to hard acceleration is like music to my ears. However, the A4 1.8T engine is a very good bang for the bucks, and actually the less fierce TT model also uses the same engine. The AWD system deserves serious consideration, because it is one of the best out there in the market. I remember when the A4 debuted in 1995 it swept the WRC for 4 years in a roll supressing Subaru Impreza into second place.

[joo]

get the bimmer.

I drove both back to back and the BMW is much more dynamic and responsive. The A4 while having a nice interior just didn't want to get up and go.

Also, if you look on Autotrader the BMW will have higher resale value.
Both cars are expensive to maintain once out of warranty.

(I ended up with a 330i with sports pkg, like a previous poster suggested),

[aznxtambOy]

then why is 2001 VW's still ranked so low in reliability???? or how about brand new 2003 are second worst in initial quality?

or was that 2000 german made golf i had a prototype from the 90s?
look in the following thread to see VW ranked 5th last in dependability based on MY2001 (worse than suzuki) cars and 2nd last in initial quality for 2004 (only a hummer is worse)
http://67.19.207.84/~redflagd/forum/showthread.php?t=139049&page=4&pp=15

I have a 2001 Jetta and I have no problems with it. I maintain my vehicle and I'm happy with it. I just think if you take care of your car you should have no problems. That's my 2 cents...

[Kenneth]

(I ended up with a 330i with sports pkg, like a previous poster suggested),

True.

Like I said previously; you gotta be kidding your self if you think the A4 or 3 series is a luxury car. So you might as well get the best sport sedan between the two. A fully loaded 3 is probably gonna cost 40 and above. So you might as well get a basic one (no leather, no nav, no p/s, etc.) just the sport package and a sunroof.

[warpdrive]

If you do get the 3 series.

ABSOLUTE, POSITIVELY get the one with a the BMW Sports Package which consists of suspension and wheel upgrades.

It absolutely makes the car. To me, the regular BMW is just an above average handling car, but the Sports Package version puts it in a league above practically every other sedan in terms of handling. It's excellent, very neutral and sharp feeling (and unlike a lot of other sports sedans, has a pretty smooth ride)

[warpdrive]

However, the A4 1.8T engine is a very good bang for the bucks, and actually the less fierce TT model also uses the same engine. The AWD system deserves serious consideration, because it is one of the best out there in the market. I remember when the A4 debuted in 1995 it swept the WRC for 4 years in a roll supressing Subaru Impreza into second place

What the heck are you talking about? Methinks you have your facts backwards. Audi hasn't won the WRC or been part of it since the eighties.

1995: Manufacturers' Championship winner Subaru 350 points
1995: Drivers' Championship winner : C.McRae Subaru

1996: Manufacturers' Championship winner : Subaru 401 points
1996: Drivers' Championship winner : Makinen Mitsubishi 123 points

1997: Manufacturers' Championship winner : Subaru 114 points
1997: Drivers' Championship winner : Makinen Mitsubishi 63 points

1998: Manufacturers' Championship winner : Mitsubishi 91 points
1998: Drivers' Championship winner : Makinen Mitsubishi 58 points

1999: Manufacturers' Championship winner : Toyota 109 points
1999: Drivers' Championship winner : Makinen Mitsubishi 62 points

[Mr Nobody]

I have driven a few turbo charged cars too, and I never have had any problem with them from the Turbo Colt my present Talon TSi. I think many owners do not even read the user's manu so they do not really know there are extra precautions to care for the turbo engine. For one, some turbo charged cars need to be warmed up before driving off, and before shutting down after hgih speed driving like on the hwy's.

You make me miss my 95 TSi AWD. All cars should not be driven hard until its fully warmed, not just turbos. When my car was warm, I used to drive it like I stole it. Full WOT accelleration, redline shifts, popping the BOV, clutchless driving, 6000rpm launches, you name it. Engine and tranny were rock solid. Changed wheel bearings like underwear though. :) And unless you live right off the highway or main streets, there's always cooloff time as you drive side streets into home. Though a turbo timer doesn't hurt, and it strikes up conversations with passerbys on the street. :)

[McLaren]

What the heck are you talking about? Methinks you have your facts backwards. Audi hasn't won the WRC or been part of it since the eighties.

I think maybe he meant Touring cars, where audi won every touring car series that particpated in, until they banned awd and added weight penalites.

[lasallejai]

Mr. Nobody,


Yes, the Talon TSi gives me big thrills once in a while, and it is one of the last batch I own that they made in 1998. It is not as refined as an Audi A4 or a Bimmer 3 Series, but then the drivability on slippery roads and the acceleration really flatter me a lot. I hope my little Talon will last for a few more years, and I still keep it in mint condition. Next time if you see a '98 black Talon TSi on beige it may be mine you are looking at. : )

[Neb]

Wel.. hasn't Audi won all the ALMS championships? 4 yrs in a row now? So eveyr brand do dominate some races as mentioned above. U can say the same for BMW in F1 or Ferrari. or Suburu for WRC.

I really woudlnt' get a car jsut because they win alot of races, there are alot of factors invovled like drivers, money put into the racing team etc. I would look at the technology in teh car themselves. Yes, racing development teams will have more advanced technologies, but how many of those really translate into real world needs. Eg. Launch control. do we launch our cars at every light? But some are good like ABS, Traction control etc...
If they just put the money they spend on racing teams into R&D, things might be different.

my 2 cents

And to my original post, I think i'll wait another few years to save up for a brand new car. Since alot of reliability issues with both older models, and most ppl have raised good points about how ppl can abuse a car and not take care of the turbo. Thanks to all those who 've replied.

[Mr Nobody]

Mr. Nobody,


Yes, the Talon TSi gives me big thrills once in a while, and it is one of the last batch I own that they made in 1998. It is not as refined as an Audi A4 or a Bimmer 3 Series, but then the drivability on slippery roads and the acceleration really flatter me a lot. I hope my little Talon will last for a few more years, and I still keep it in mint condition. Next time if you see a '98 black Talon TSi on beige it may be mine you are looking at. : )

If you want to sell it, let me know. ;)

(Sorry, major OT)

[lasallejai]

Mr. Nobody,

I will keep that in mind, but I think my RX7 would be the first one to go since new member of the family will be arriving in June. : )

[AudiDude]

What the heck are you talking about? Methinks you have your facts backwards. Audi hasn't won the WRC or been part of it since the eighties.

1995: Manufacturers' Championship winner Subaru 350 points
1995: Drivers' Championship winner : C.McRae Subaru

1996: Manufacturers' Championship winner : Subaru 401 points
1996: Drivers' Championship winner : Makinen Mitsubishi 123 points

1997: Manufacturers' Championship winner : Subaru 114 points
1997: Drivers' Championship winner : Makinen Mitsubishi 63 points

1998: Manufacturers' Championship winner : Mitsubishi 91 points
1998: Drivers' Championship winner : Makinen Mitsubishi 58 points

1999: Manufacturers' Championship winner : Toyota 109 points
1999: Drivers' Championship winner : Makinen Mitsubishi 62 points

Yeah, what the heck was he talking about? Maybe his picture and sound is VERY garbled on his TV??

[warpdrive]

Originally Posted by lasallejai
However, the A4 1.8T engine is a very good bang for the bucks, and actually the less fierce TT model also uses the same engine. The AWD system deserves serious consideration, because it is one of the best out there in the market. I remember when the A4 debuted in 1995 it swept the WRC for 4 years in a roll supressing Subaru Impreza into second place


I think maybe he meant Touring cars, where audi won every touring car series that particpated in, until they banned awd and added weight penalites.


I thought that might have been what he was talking about until he mentioned Subaru (which never participated in Touring Car Racing)

Equating racing cars with road cars is a very iffy proposition anyway. The AWD system in touring cars has nearly nothing in common with the Torsen system used in production road cars

[ViperZ]

Definitely 325i. I'll take 2.5 inline V6 above 1.8 4-cylinder with turbo any time. If you really really will want A4, then at least buy 2.8 or newer 3.0, but that will cost you much more, so you'll have to compare against 330i.

[siup1]

I say go with the Audi. Don't listen to people who've never owned neither.. When you drive an audi, you know it's better than the 325i. The 1.8T is one of the most reliable engines out there. It's been on the best 10 list for many years. It's only when people start modding them and not maintaining them that things go wrong. Besides, the 2002+ audis should come with 8 years of powertrain warrenty cause of some small problems they had early in production so they decided to give everyone extended warrenty. Not to mention getting better economy from fuel savings. Audi interiors are also much better IMO. Everything is laid out nicely and logically. Those who bash audis for high repair costs, long waits and such should say the same thing about BMWs cause they're just expensive, and just as long..
The only problem i've had with my A4 so far a small window button problem where the extra click to close all the way didn't work all the time. It was fixed in no time and no cost at the dealer.
It would probably be best for you to test drive both cars.. see which one you like.. and don't give into the stereotype of BMWs being super awesome cars.. they're good cars.. but in the end, it's up to you =)

Hope this helps more than just people just bashing cars :D

[McLaren]

Wel.. hasn't Audi won all the ALMS championships? 4 yrs in a row now? So eveyr brand do dominate some races as mentioned above. U can say the same for BMW in F1 or Ferrari. or Suburu for WRC.

I really woudlnt' get a car jsut because they win alot of races, there are alot of factors invovled like drivers, money put into the racing team etc. I would look at the technology in teh car themselves. Yes, racing development teams will have more advanced technologies, but how many of those really translate into real world needs. Eg. Launch control. do we launch our cars at every light? But some are good like ABS, Traction control etc...
If they just put the money they spend on racing teams into R&D, things might be different.


First off, BMW does not dominate F1 (they do make one of the best engines though) Secondly, the budgets they put into motorsports is R&D.

Where do you think the V10 in the new M5 comes from? F1.

What about sequential manual gearboxes such as SMG (BMW) and DSG (Audi) transmissions come from?

Notice those air suspensions on S-classes, A8's, Cayenne etc (active suspension technology from F1)

Double wishbone suspensions? ( Formula 1 again)

Take a look at the Porsche Carrera GT, its derived from the 911 GT1 Lemans car.

Anyway you look at it, all forms of racing are a part of R&D for car manufacturers.

[gilboman]

First off, BMW does not dominate F1 (they do make one of the best engines though) Secondly, the budgets they put into motorsports is R&D.

Where do you think the V10 in the new M5 comes from? F1.

What about sequential manual gearboxes such as SMG (BMW) and DSG (Audi) transmissions come from?

Notice those air suspensions on S-classes, A8's, Cayenne etc (active suspension technology from F1)

Double wishbone suspensions? ( Formula 1 again)

Take a look at the Porsche Carrera GT, its derived from the 911 GT1 Lemans car.


Anyway you look at it, all forms of racing are a part of R&D for car manufacturers.

F1 dont use V10, and most certainly not a 5.0 V10

and you are dreaming thinking the technology listed got into pasenger cars b/c of F1. lots of automakers had those technology in their cars eventhough they dont have F1 program or any meaningful racing program at all

and double wishbone most certainly didnt end up in passenger cars b/c of F1

[bluetroll]

some F1 teams use a 3.6L.... i think that is what Honda uses.

its either a V8 or V10.

[McLaren]

F1 dont use V10, and most certainly not a 5.0 V10

and you are dreaming thinking the technology listed got into pasenger cars b/c of F1. lots of automakers had those technology in their cars eventhough they dont have F1 program or any meaningful racing program at all

and double wishbone most certainly didnt end up in passenger cars b/c of F1

Buddy, why dont you get your facts straight before pulling info out of your asss? All F1 teams use a 3.0L V10 , it's the rules.

Okay smart guy, so road cars had traction control before F1 cars implemented them? So F1 teams who spend 200-300 million dollars take technology from an everyday passenger car. Yeah that makes sense. Ditto goes for all the other technologies.

And it is A FACT that honda took double wishbone suspensions from their F1 program with McLaren back in the 80's, and implemented it in the Honda NSX. You for one should know this since ur a honda fanboy

Next time you post, go do some research instead of spewing crap that you obviously know nothing about.

[warpdrive]

Racing development does play a part in R&D of production cars. It's just a simple trickle down effect. The general idea is proven there, and eventually they get the cost down enough to add it to passenger cars.

However, you should always take a grain of salt when the car marketing trumps this fact....participating in racing programs is just a marketing tool to get brand recognition.

Even WRC falls into this scheme. While the basic engine block is used, and the body shell and frame is used, almost every other part is custom racing part. An average WRC car can cost upwards of a million dollars.

[bionicbadger]

Back to the Audi vs BMW. Test drive them both and pick the one YOU like.

[gilboman]

Buddy, why dont you get your facts straight before pulling info out of your asss? All F1 teams use a 3.0L V10 , it's the rules.

Okay smart guy, so road cars had traction control before F1 cars implemented them? So F1 teams who spend 200-300 million dollars take technology from an everyday passenger car. Yeah that makes sense. Ditto goes for all the other technologies.

And it is A FACT that honda took double wishbone suspensions from their F1 program with McLaren back in the 80's, and implemented it in the Honda NSX. You for one should know this since ur a honda fanboy

Next time you post, go do some research instead of spewing crap that you obviously know nothing about.

and how long have they been using V10 :lol:

[gilboman]

Buddy, why dont you get your facts straight before pulling info out of your asss? All F1 teams use a 3.0L V10 , it's the rules.

Okay smart guy, so road cars had traction control before F1 cars implemented them? So F1 teams who spend 200-300 million dollars take technology from an everyday passenger car. Yeah that makes sense. Ditto goes for all the other technologies.

And it is A FACT that honda took double wishbone suspensions from their F1 program with McLaren back in the 80's, and implemented it in the Honda NSX. You for one should know this since ur a honda fanboy

Next time you post, go do some research instead of spewing crap that you obviously know nothing about.

but double wishbone was the suspension used in the 1980s on most cars before FWD became popular and the mcpherson strut became the more widely used suspension

the traction control in everyday cars when it first came out is totally different beast than the one used in F1
you sure buy the marketing BS

but you know what? if you like to buy all that BS, the tires on my car are F1 derived too, we both use 4 tires and bridgestone says it uses F1 technology :lol:

[Neb]

Alright, calm down everybody. I cant' believe a simple Audi vs BMW thread has turned into this..

[McLaren]

but double wishbone was the suspension used in the 1980s on most cars before FWD became popular and the mcpherson strut became the more widely used suspension

the traction control in everyday cars when it first came out is totally different beast than the one used in F1
you sure buy the marketing BS

but you know what? if you like to buy all that BS, the tires on my car are F1 derived too, we both use 4 tires and bridgestone says it uses F1 technology :lol:

Normally aspirated V10's have been used in F1 for the past 15 years. GO look at the suspension of an F1 car from the 60's, 70's, 80''s. And obviously the stuff used in F1 cars aren't going to be transplanted straight from there, point of the discussion is that it was pioneered from motor racing, a concept that you obviously cannot grasp.

And oh btw rain tires in F1 are also developed for the tires we use.

[actng]

Alright, calm down everybody. I cant' believe a simple Audi vs BMW thread has turned into this..

That's what happens when you get ****** like gilboman making blanket statements when he's obviously speculating upon hypotheses...

and no, I wasn't censored, I just typed asteriks so you can insert your favourite description of a ******.

[SoNgMaN]

That's what happens when you get ****** like gilboman making blanket statements when he's obviously speculating upon hypotheses...

and no, I wasn't censored, I just typed asteriks so you can insert your favourite description of a ******.

looks like he's hated by honda/acura owners too :

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:sayjNe1hrkQJ:www.acura-tsx.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1111.html+gilboman&hl=en

[gilboman]

That's what happens when you get ****** like gilboman making blanket statements when he's obviously speculating upon hypotheses...

and no, I wasn't censored, I just typed asteriks so you can insert your favourite description of a ******.

thats what you get when owners cant accept studies that clearly indicate their make of cars had **** reliability, and try to make excuses. just come out and admit the make has **** reliaibltiy but you like driving a car with solid rear suspension with chasis from the 70s and underperforming engnies that are made in mexico and dont care about reliability.

best is whining that one is sick of constant studies year after year that show certain automaker with reliability on par with the worst automakers in the world.

[gilboman]

looks like he's hated by honda/acura owners too :

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:sayjNe1hrkQJ:www.acura-tsx.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1111.html+gilboman&hl=en

oh ya..those nutjobs who think a FWD I4 with 3200lb+ econosedan is in same class as a 3 series

there's nth wrong with admitting the shortcommings of an automaker, but dont lie and delude yourself into believing those shortcommings dont exist

but i'm glad you realized when you google the number of results dont mean anything and you actually looked at the result themselves.

just dont go into thinking number of results from a search on google is meaningful to what you are searching again.

[actng]

looks like he's hated by honda/acura owners too :

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:sayjNe1hrkQJ:www.acura-tsx.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1111.html+gilboman&hl=en

hahahah what a reject!

[gilboman]

hahahah what a reject!

yes, rejected is what most owners feel when their car craps out on them, and VW owners get that more than other automakers

anyways.. to the original poster, this may help, although its of a 2004 Audi 3.0 quattro that gets its ass whopped, the bimmer in the comparison is pretty much the same as a 2001 one

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=7785&page_number=1

[romsan04]

well said... cheapos on RFD should buy a corolla. it'll take them from point a to point b without any maintenance, oil changes, or even visits to the gas station. sounds like gilboman should buy a shitbox like that.


From what you said I can conclude that you are driving a shitbox. I know that you like your car and enjoy fixing it, spending money on it and time. Not all people here like you. Some people just like to drive from point A to point B and not from point A to a garage. It's been known that VW quality went down when they moved their plants to Mexico. I have a lot of friends who are mechanics and none of them would recommend buying one. On other hand my dad driving 1987 Jetta with 300K on it, engine and transmission was never replaced or fixed. Of course he spends time fixing little things here and there but he enjoys it but I dont. So I don’t see how is VW are better than Japanese or American cars. For me if the car spends more time in garage than on the road = SHITBOX. And don’t forget consumer reports are made by people from their experiences first hand not from what they heard from someone. If you ignore them and say that is ******** it makes you ignorant fool.

For me reliability is number 1.

On the topic I would get BMW, because I like them. :D

[Jovi]

Hey Jabroni (Gilboman),

I'll take my SE-R against a 3-series anyday.

BTW - feast yourself on this.

Ps # Driver/Hometown Sponsor/Car Purse Fst Time Fst Spd
1 4 Peter Cunningham/W. Bend/WI NISMO/TeamRTR/Nissan/Sentra SE-R 1000 **1:29.688 98.702
2 42 Pierre Kleinubing/Coconut Creek/FL A-SPEC/RealTime Racing/Acura TSX 200 **1:29.809 98.569
3 36 James Clay/Blacksburg/VA Bimmerworld/Ground Control/BMW 325i 100 **1:30.194 98.148